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VOL  1 

'  vi''.v^•;'•*  h-i'A*'; 

,i<-'>  Mi   A  ■'■<\r ■':.'.* 


-     I      - 





Torouto,   Ontario, 
Thursday.,    ; 
February   iB*r'T945, 

SPEAKER:        Honourable-  William  J.   Stewart,    C.B.E. 



His  Honour  the   Lieutenant   GoverXior  -. 

Re   In  Memory  Former   Speaker  —     W,D.   Black 

Re  far  Situation 

Re  Education 

Re  Health 

Re  Sewage   Disposal 

Re  Public  Food   Supply 

Re  Mental  Hospitals 

Re  Cancer 

Re  Costs  of  Public  Hospitals 

Re  Public  Welfare 

Re  Department  of  Labour 

Workmen* s  compensation  Act. 

Labour  Relations  Bo«ird. 

Minimum  wage  Act. 
Re  Agriculture 
Re  Agricultural  college 
Re  Stock  Yards 

Re  County  Agricultural  Committees 
Re  Mining 

Re  Succession  Duties 
Re  Tourist  Planiiing 
Re  Game  and  Fisheries 
Re  Vital  Statistics  Act 
Re  Assessment  Act 
Re  Lands  and  Forests 

Laboratory  -  -  Sault  Ste.  Marie 
Re  Highways 
Re  Public  Works 
Re  Hydro 

Re  Securities'  Act 
Re  Election  Act 






























--  II  — 

Toronto^  Ontario, 
Februai*y  15,    19  45. 

Re  Safety  in  Pubjlc  Halls  20 

Re  Planning  and   Development  20 

Re  Flood   Control  21 

Re  Ontario  civil  Service  gl 

Re  Domiiiion-Proviricial  Conference  22 

Re   Public   Accounts  22 

Return  from  General  Election   -  1943  -  22 

Introduction  of:    "An  Act   to  Provide 
for  the  voting  of  Active  Service  Voters 
at  a  General  Election   to   the   Assembly" 

-  Mr.    Blackwell   -  23 

First  Reading  23 

Select  Standing  Committees  24 
Re  Tabling  of  Public  Accounts   -  year  ended 

March  31,1944   --  24 

8e  Absentees  from  the  Chaiaber  -  Ml*.   Drew  25 

-     lir.    Jolliffe  26 

Re  Guard  of  Honour                           -  Mr.   Drew  25 


-  Ill  - 

THB  LSGIS  L  A  T   I   V  E  AS   S   E  M   B   L  Y 

SECOND        DAY 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Friday,  February  16^ 

SPEAKER:  Honourable   William  J.Stewart,    C.B.E. 


Tabling  Report  of  Committees  re  Active  Service 
Election  Act,  the  Voters*  List  Act  and 

Election  Act  -  Mr.  Blackwell  ^ 

Re  Working  of  committee  S7 

Explanation  of  House  Position  -  Mr.  Alles  28 

Explanation  of  House  position  -  Mr.  Hancock  30 

A  D  J  C  U  R  N  M  E  M  T  38 

,.  ?f' .  IT 

-  IV  - 


T  H 


■  I   I    iiT  I  '       I     I        I 


Toronto,  Ontario, 
Monday, February  19,1945, 

SPEAICER:  Honourable  William  J.  Stewart,  C.B.B* 

I  ^  D  E  X 


corporation  of 
Corporation  of 
Corporation  of 
Corporation  of 
Corporation  of 

of  parrie 
of  Welland 
of  Ottawa 
o  f  Woodstock 
of  Peterboroui 





Incorporate^  Synod  of  the  Diocese  of 

Corporation  of  City  of  Kingston 
Evangelical  Lutiieran  Seminary  of  Canada 
Corporation  of  city  of  St.  Thomas 
Corporation  of  city  of  Pt .  Arthur 
Sacred  Heart  College  of  Sudbury 
Kingsboro  club 

Corporation  of  Township  of  Crowland 
Corporation  of  City  of  Toronto  (2) 
Corporation  of  village  of  Swansea 

Re  Stenographic  Report  Qf  Debates  a^id  proceedings 

Select  Committee  re  Library 

Select  Committee  re  Art       ' 

Select  Committee  re  Select  Standing  Committees 

Introduction  of:  "An  Act  to  Adend  the  Mefltal 
Hospitals  Act"  -  Mr.  Vivian 
First  Reading 

Introduction  of : 
Protection  Act" 
First  Reading 

"An  Act  to  Amend 
-  Mr.  Vivian 

the  Children's 


















-  V  - 

Toronto,  Ontario 
Monday,  February  19, 

Introduction  of  :  "An  Act 
Territorial  Division  Act" 
First  Beading 

to  Amend  the 
-  Mr.  Thompson 

Introduction  of:  "An  Act  to  Amend  the 
Surveys  Act  -  1945"  -  Mr.  Thompson 
First  Reading 

Motion  to  adjourn  for  Urgent  Busine*,s 

Re  Distribution  of  Fuel  -  Mr 




Mr.  Jolliffe 


Mr.  Thornberry 


Miss  Macphail 


Mr.  Dennison 


Mr.  Salsberg 


Mr.  Drew 




Mr.  Brown 


Mr.  L.L.  Robinson 

(Waterloo  south) 


Mr.  Frost 


Mr.  Hepburn  (Elgin) 



Mr.  Mitchell 


Mr.  Riggs 


Mr.  Connor 


Mr.  MacLeod 


BILL  NO.  25:  "An  Act  to  Provide  for  the  Voting 
of  Active  service  voters  at  a  General  Election 
to  the  Assembly   -  Mr.    Blackwell 


Explanation   -  Mr.   Blackwell  61 
correspondence    -  Mr,  Blackwell   -  Mr.McLarty        63 

New   Sub-section   3   to  Section   2  68 

Mr.   jolliffe  69 

Mr.    Grummet t  74 



-   VI   - 
F  0    U  RT  H        DAY 

Toronto,  Ontario, 
Tuesday,    February  20, 

SPEAKER:        Honourable  William  J.   Stewart,    C.B.E. 


Introduction  o^  Act:  "The  Voters'  List  Act,  1945'»  76 


Introduction  of  Act:  "The  Election  Act,  1946"  76 

i'lRST  READING  76 

Explanation  -  Mr.  Blackwell  77 

Re  Movement  of  Tobacco  77 
Re  correspondence  -  old  Age  Pensions  -  Mr.  MacLeod   78 

Mr.  Drew  78 

i^uestion  of  Privilege  -  Mr.  Hepburn  79 

Welcome  to  Five  Royal  Kaval  officers  -  Mr.  Drew  81 

Mr.  jolliffe  88 

Resuming  the  adjourned  Debate  on  the  Motion 
for  the  consideration  of  the  Speech  of  the 

Hon.  the  Lieutexiant  Governor  82 

Motion  to  accept  -  Mr.  Margin  82 

Record  of  Administration  83 

world  Wa?  83 

Empire  Air  Training  Scheme  85 

Agriculture  87 

union  stock  Yards  90 

Labour  91 

Niagara  Parks  commission  92 

Health  93 

Welfare  95 

Highways  96 

Plaining  and  Development  98 

Provincial  secretary  99 

Motion  Seconded  -   Mr.  Scott  101 

Education  101 

Succession  Duties  103 

VII    - 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Tuesday .February  20, 

Mning  103 

Travel  and  Publicity  Bureau  104 

Game  and  Fisheries  104 

Tourist   Trade  105 

Lands  and  Forests  106 

Debate  Adjourned     -     Mr.    Jolliffe  109 


-  VIII   - 


P  I  F   T  H  DA  Y 

Toronto,  Ontario, 
Wednesday, February  Z\, 

SPEAKER:     Honourable  williaiji  J.   Stewart,    C.B.E. 


Appointment  Mr.   Reynolds    (Leeds)   Chairman  Committees 

of  Whole  House  135 

Introduction  of:    "Act  to  Amend  the   countiliss 

'Reforestation  Act'"  -  Mr.    "Kiompson  136 

First  Reading  136 

Explanation  137 

Introduction  of:    "Act  to  Amend 'Crown  Timber  Act'  " 

Mr.   Thompson  136 

Finei  Reading  136 

Explanation  136 

Introduction  of;    "Act  Respecting  Forest  Engineers" 

Mr.  Tnompson  137 

First   Reading  137 

Explanation  137 

Question  of  Privilege   -  Mr.    Gruffimett  137 

Q,uestion  of  Privilege  -  Mr,   Belanger  138 

House   in  committee  140 

Bill  25:    "An  Act   to  Provide  for   the  Voting  of 
Active    service  Voters  at  a  Geijeral 
Election   to  tl^e  Assembly*  -  Mr.   Blackwell      140 
Amendments  -  Mr.   Blackwell  141 


-   IX  - 

Toronto,    Ontario, 
Wednesday,    February   21, 


Mr.   Jolliffe  144 



Mr.   Hepburn    (Elgin)  145 

Mr.  Laurie r  144 

Mr*   Grummett  1^6 

BILL  25  Reported  157 

The  House  Resumes  157 

BILL  NO.    26:    «An  Act   to  Amend  the  Meotfil  Hospitals 

Act"  -  Mr.  Vivian  157 

Explanation     -     Mr.  Vivian  158 

SECOND  READlNa:    -  158 

BILL  NO.    27:    «An  Act   to  Amend  the  Children's 

Protection  Act"  -  Mr.  Vivian  158 

Explanftion  -  Mr.   Vivia^  158 

SECOND  READING:    -  159 

BILL  NO.   28:    "An  Act  to    Amend  the  Territorial 

Division  Act"  -  Mr.   Thompson  159 

Explanation  159 

SECOND  HEADING:    -  159 

BILL  NO.   29 :    "^  Act   t©  Amend  the  Surveys'   Act" 

-  Mr .  Thompson  160 

Explanation  160 

SECOND  READING;    -  160 

Mr.  Murray  160 

Mr.  Mitchell  161 

Mr.   Thorapscin  161 

Discussion  as  to  Procedure  161 


-  X  - 



Toronto,   Ontario 
Thursday, February  22, 

SPEAKER:      Honourable  William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.E, 


Personnell  of  committees: 

Printings  and  Elections 


Private  Bills 

Standing  Orders 

Public  Accourits 


Municipal  Law 

Legal  Bills 

Agriculture  and  Colonization 

Fish  and  Game 



Introduction  of: "Act  to  Amend  Damages  by  Fumes 

Arbitration  Acf  -  Mr.  Frost  169 

Explanation  -  Mr.  Frost  169 

Introduction  of:  "Act  to  Amend  The  Public  Works 

Act"  -  Mr.  Doucett  170 

Explanation  -  Ml" .  Doucett  170 

Introduction  of  :  "Act  to  repeal  the  political 

Constitutions  Act"  -  ^. 

-  Mr.  Blackwell  170 

Explanation  -  Mr.  Blackwell  170 

Introduction  of:  "Act  to  Amend  the  Judicature  Act" 

-  Mr.  Blackwell  171 


Welcome  to  Colonel  zabotin  -  Mr.  Drew  171 

Mr.  Hepburn  (Elgin)  171 

-   XI   - 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Thursday .February  22, 

Re  Family  Allowances  -  Mr.   Drew  172 

Re  Dominion-Provincial  Conference   -  Mr.  Drew  175 

Re  Letter  Frost  to  King  September  21,    1944  176 

Re   Telegram  Drew  to    King  February  14,    1945  178 

Reply:    Clerk  Privy  Council   to  Drew  231 

Re  Social  Service  Agencies   -  Mr.    Drew  180 

Mr.  Hepburn    (Elgin)  181 

Mr.  MacLeod  191 

Resuming  the  Adjourned  Debate  on  the  Motion  for 
the  Consideration  of  the  Speech  of  the     Hon,   the 

Lieutenant  Governor  193 

Mr.  Jo  11  if fe  1^3 

World   conditions   1  year  ago  194 

Responsibility  of  Governments  196 

Re  policy  of  Government  198 

Re  Family  Allowances  199 
Re  Attitude  of  Opposition  to 

Government  201 

Twenty -Two  Points  -  General  202 
1st  of  22  Points  re   British 

Institutions,   etc.,  203 
2nd  of  22  Points  re   co-operation 

with  Dominion  207 
3rd  of  22  Points  re   Legislative 

Support  of  Industry  209 

4th  of  22  Points  re  Agriculture  212 

Labour  218 

Mines  222 
Forest  Resources 

Commission  225 
8th  of  22  Points  re  Ontario  Housing 

commission  227 

Discussion  re  procedure  -  Mr.  Drew  227 

-  Mr.jolliffe  228 

















-  XII  - 



Friday, February   23,1945, 

SPEAKER:      Honourable  William  J.   Stewart,    C.B.B. 


Introduction  of: "Act  to  Amend  the  Municipal  Act" 

-  Mr.    Bennett  230 

Explanation  230 


Introduction  of:    "Act  to  Amend   the   Public 

Utilities  Act"  -  Mr,.,  qonuor  231 

Explanation  231 


Dominion-Provincial  Conference  231 

Letter  -  Clerk  Privy  Couincil  to  Mr.  Drew  230 

Celebration  100th  anniversaly  Founding  Order  of 

Grey  Nuns  of  the   Cross  -  Mr.   Belanger  232 

House  adjourned  in  matter  of  urgent  public 


Re   Family  Allowances 

Re  Workmen's  Compensation   - 
Re  Arthur  Me Ian con 






Sa  Isberg 









Hepburn (Elgin) 









L.G.  Robinson 

(Waterloo  South) 


Miss  Macphail 












.  Luckock 




2  71 








-  XIII  - 



■  fkDTOiito,  On'tario, 
.Monday,  February  26, 1945  . 

SPEAKER:   Honourable  William  J.  Stewart,  G.B.E. 

:                                                  INDEX 


The,  corporation  of  the   City  of  Peterborough 


The   Corporation  of  the   City  of  London 


The   corporation  of  the   Township  of  Stamford 


Labour  Legislatioxj:      (Questions  re   -  Mr.   salsberg 

2  96 

S9  7 

Mr.    Drew 


Introduction -of :    "The   Securities'   Act  -   1945" 

-  Mr.    Blackwell 


Explanation    .'.               Mr.    Blackwell 




Re  Thos.  H.:Hogg,  Director, 
Executor  Company  - 

Chartered  Trust  and 
Mr.  Jolliffa 

Introduction  of:  "Act  Respecting  prospecting  Syndicat 
Having  a  Capital  Not  jBxceeding  |10,000."  -Mr.  Blackwe 
Explanation        -  Mr.  Blackwell 

House  adjourned  -to  discuss  matter  of  Public  Importanc 

Re  Family  Allowances 









. Jolliffe 


Grummet t 

Paymaster  Disaster 

Persoxinel  of  Investigatiiig 


The  House  Resumes 

BILL  NO.   25:    "Act   to  Provide  for  Voting  of  Active 
Service  Voters  at  a  general  election   to  the   Assembly" 

Mr. Blackwell  • 



11    303 

•  303 



-  XIV  - 

Toronto, Ontario, 

Monday, February  26,  1945. 

House  in  Committee  327 
BILL  NO.  26:   "Act  to  Amend  Mental  Hospitals  Act" 

-  Mr.  Vivian  32  7 
Bill  Reported  327 
BILL  ISO.  27:   "Act  to  Amend  the  Children's  Protection 
Act"  -  Mr.  Vivian       '  32  7 

-  Mr.  Dennison  327 

Mr.  Vivian  328 


Mr.  jolliffe  329 

Bill  Reported  329 
BILL  NC.  28:   "Act  to  Amend  the  Territorial  Districts 

Act"  -  Mr.  Thompson  330 

Explanation   -   Mr.  Thompson  330 

Bill  Reported  330 

BILL  NO.  29:   "Act  to  Amend  the  Surveys  Act" 

-  Mr.  Thompson  ^  330 
Bill  Reported  '  331 
The  House  Resumes 

BILL  NO.  30:  "The  Voters'  List  Act  -  1945" 

-  Mr.  Blackwell  331 
Explanation                    Mr.  Blackwell       331 



Mr.  Jollifre         332 



Mr.  Denniisfrn        333 


BILL  NO.  31:   "The  Election  Act  -  1945"  341 

Bill  Stands  342 

BILL  NO.  32:   "Act  to  Amend  the Counties'  Reforestation 
Act**,.-  Mr.  Thompson  .  342 

Explanation  -    Mr.  Thompson         342 

Mr.  Dennison         343 

Mr.  Dunbar  343 

Mrs.  Luckock        343 


BILL  I-JU.  33:   "An  Act ''to  Amend  theCrown  Timber  Act" 

-  Mr'.  Thompson  344 
Explanation   -  Mr.  Thompson                       .  344 


Mr.  Murray  344 

Mr.  Hunt  347 

Mr.  Smith  348 


BILL'NO'.  34:   "Act  Respecting  Forest  Enginiers* 

-  Mr'i  Thompson  350 
Explanation   -  Mr.  Thompson  350. 

Mr  .  Harvey  350 

-  XV  - 


Toronto,   Ontario, 
Monday, February   26,    1945, 


























-  XVI  - 

THE        LEGISLATIVE        AS   S  E  M  B   L  Y 

M   I   N   T  H     DAY 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Tuesday, Fftbruary  27,1945 

SPEAKER:     Honourable  William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.E. 



corporation  of  Township  of  Stamford  380 

Ontario  Music   Teacheirs'    Association  380 

•     let  Report  -   Committee  on  Stauding  Orders  380 
Final  Report       -  Committee  re   Development  and 

Processing  Lignite  Deposits  in  Ontario  383 

Introduction  of;    "Act   Respecting  City  of  St.   Thomas" 

-  Mr.  Hepburn   (Elgin)  393 

Introduction  of:"A0t  Respecting  city   of  Ottawa 

Separate   School  Board"  -  Mr.   Laurier  394 

Introduction  of:    "Act   Respecting  City  of  Welland" 

-  Mr.    Brown  394 
Introduction  of:    "Act   Respecting  Evangelical  Lutheran 
Seminary  of  Canada"  -  Mr.   Cook  394 

Introduction  of:    "Act  Respecting  Synod  of  the   Diocese 

of  Niagara    "  -     Mr.    Robeits   '  394 


Introduction  of:    "Act  Respecting  the  City  of  Woodstock" 

-  Mr.  Dent  394 
Introduction  of:    "Act  Respecting  the  Town  of  Barrie" 

-  Mr.  McDonald  394 

-  XVII    - 

Toronto,    Ontario, 
Tuesday , February   27,1945. 

Introduction  of:    "Act   to  Amend  the  Municipal  Act" 

-  Mr.    Belemger 
Explanation   -  Mr.   Belanger 

Re   incorporation  of  Social  Clubs  -     Mr.  Belanger 

Mr.   Dunbar 

BILL  NO.  26:   "Act  to  Amend  Mental  Hospitals  Act" 

-  Mr  .  Vivian         * 

BILL  NO.  27:   "Act  to  Amend  the  Children's  Protection 

Act"  -  Mr,  Vivian 


BILL  NO.    28;       "Act    to    Amend   the  Territorial  Districts 

Act"   -  Mr.    Thompson 


BILL  NO.  29:   "Act  to  Amend  the  Surveys'  Act" 

-  Mr .  Thompson 

BILLS  NO.  25  to  29  INCLUSIVE  assented  to  by  His 
Honour  the  Lieutenant  Governor 
Resuming  the  Adjourned  Debate  on  the  Motion 
the  Consideration  of  the  Speech  of  the  Hon. 
Lieutenant  Governor 

8th  of  22  points  re  Housing  commission  -Mr.  Jolliffe 
9th  of  22  Points  re  Reduction  in  Real  Estate 

10th  of  22  Points  re  Education 
11th  of  22  Points  re  Medical,  Dental  and  Health 

Care  for  Children 
Post  war  Plans 
Hydro  Electric 
Beclamation  of  Land 
Eliminating  Duplication,  of  Taxes 
Civil  Service  - 
Rights  of  Citizens 
Mothers'  Allowance  -  Old  Age 

Fuel,  Milk,  etc. 
Priority  of  Employment  for 
Armed  Services 

Protection  for  Ex-Service  Men 
Social  Security 



15  th 
17  th 

20  th 





Po  in  t  s 
Po  in  t  s 
Po  in  ts 









Po  in  t  s 

Dominion  Provincial   Conference 
Re  Education 
Re   Agriculture 
Re  Labour  Legislation 

Re   Dissatisfaction   with  Government's  Actions 
Re  amendment   to  Motion   re  Speech  from  the  x^irone 

Mr .  Drew 
Re     Minority  Government 
Re  alleged  arrogaiice 









42  7 



-   XVIII   - 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Tuesday,    February  27,1945 

Re   War-Time   Election  452 

Re   National  Unity  453 

Re    Civil   Service  454 

Re   Inter-provixicial  co-operation  456 

Re  Labour  Progressive   advertisements  457 

Re  Dominion-Provincial    Conference  ^                                466 


-  kjx  - 


TENTH        DAY 


Toronto,   Ontario 
Wednesday,  February   S, 

19  45. 

SPEAKER:   Honourable  William  J.  Stewart,  C.B.E. 

I  W  D  E  X 


of  Branch  51  Canadian  Legion,  B.E.S.L.  475 

of  Ontario  Music  Teachers'  Association    ^  475 

Acceptance  of  Amendment  -  Mr.  Speaker  475 

Re  committee  on  Labour  Relations  -  Mr.  Drew  476 

Mr.  Salsberg  478 

■'■  Mr.  Williams  479 


Mr.  Salsberg  481 

Mr .  Hepburn  491 

Mr,   Daley  493 

R*  Laboiar  Relations  Board  -     Mr.  Williams  50  5 

Mr.   Frost  509 

Mr.   Alles  516 

>,  Mr.  Anderson  518 

Mr.    L.E.Black'well  SO 

Mr.    Jolliffe  522 

Mr .   Riggs  524 
Introduction  of:    "Act   Respect  in  g>the   Sacred  Heart 

College,    Sudbury"  -  Mr.  B.H.    Carlin  526 


Introduction  of:    "Bill   to    Incorporate   the  Kingsmere 

Club  -  Mr.  Mitchell  526 

Explanation  526 

"Telegram"  Editorial  re   |2,000.00  Sessional  indemuiity 

-  Mr .  MacLeod  >■  526 

Mr.G.D.  Mitchell  527 
Re  Accident  at  Paymaster  Mine  -   Toronto   Daily  Star, 

February  2  7th,    1945   -  Mr'.   A.    William*  527 

-  XX  - 

Toronto,    Ontario, 
Wednesday, February  28,1945. 

investigation  at  Paymaster  Mine  -     Mr.  Frost  530 

Mr.  MacLeod  536 

Mr,   Roberts  538 


-  XXI  - 



Toronto,   Ontario 
Thursday,  March  1,    194  5, 

SPEAKER:      Honourable  William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.E. 



of  Branch  51   Canadian    Legion   B.B.S.L.  550 
Introduption  of:    "An  Act   to  Amend   the  Public  Health 

Act"  -  Mr.   Vivian  550 

Explanation   -  Mr.  Vivian  550 

Introduction  of:    "Act  Begarding  Housing  standards" 

-  Mr.    Dennison  551 

Explanation  551 


"Canadian   Tribune"  March  3rd^    1945T-Mr.   Anderson  552 

Mr .W. Dennison  553 

Mr.  Belanger  555 

Mr.   F.W.   warren  556 

Re  Pay  for  Cbani-ng  Staff  -         Mr.    Salsberg  557 

The  House   in  Committee  560 

Re  Bill  NO.   30:    The  Voters*   Lists  Act,    1945.  560 
Re  BILL  NO.   32:    "An  Act   to   Amend  the  County's 

Reforestation  Act"  '  575 

BILL  NO.    32  Reported  576 
Re  BILL  NO .  33:    "An  Act   to  Amend  the  Crown  Timber 

Act"  576 

Bill  Reporte^l  578 
Ite  Bill  No.   36:    "An  Act   to  Amend  the  Public  Works 

Act"  -  Mr.    Doucett  578 

The  House  Resumed  578 
BILL  NO.   31;      "The   Eleetion  Act,    1945" 

Mr.  Blackwell  579 

Mr.  Roberts  578  -  A 

-  XXII  - 

Toronto,  Ontario, 
Thursday, March  1,1945. 

Mr.  aE.  Leavens  591 

Mr.  Riggs  595 

Mr.  Nixon  595 

Mrs.  Luckock  597 

Mr.  Casselman  597 

Mr.  Blackwell  597 

Mr.  Hancock  599 

Re   BILL  NO.    37:    "An  Act   to    Repeal   the  political 

Contributions   Act"  -  Mr.   Blackwell                                '  600 


Re  BILL  NO.   31:    "Aii  Act   to  Amend  the   Judicature  Act" 

-  Mr.   Blackwell  601 
Re   BILL  NO.   42:    "An  Act   Respecting  Prospecting 
Syndicates  Having  a   capital      Not  Exceeding  110,000.00" 

-  Mr.  Blackwell  ^01 
BILL  NO.  42  STANDS  602 
Resuming  adjourned  debate  on   the  Amendment   to   the 

Motion  for   the  Consideration  of  the   Speech  of  the 

Honourable  Lieutenant  Governor     Mr.    Drew  60  2 

Re  Post-war  standards  603 

Re   Canadian  Exports  603 

Re  Scientific   Research  604 


-  XXIII  - 



Toronto,   Ontario, 
Friday, March  2,1945 

SPEAKER:      Honourable   William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.3. 


Introduction  of:    "An  Act   to  Amend   ttB    Public  Hospital 

Act"  -  Mr.   Vivian  630 

E:?)lanation        -         Mr.   Vivian  630 


Introduction  of:    "An  Act  to  Amend   the  Workmen's 

Compensation  Act"   -  Mr.   Daley  631 

Explanation  -  Mr.   Daley  631 


Re  Report  of  commission  of  Agricultural     inquiry 

Mr.   Jolliffe  632 

Mr.   Drew  633 
Re  Glove  and  Mail  3/2/45  -  re   "Hydro  Alleged 

Financing  Unions"                      -             Mr.   Salsberg  633 

Mr.  Challies  63§ 

Re  BILL  NC .  52:    "An  Act   to  Amend  the   Counties*    Re- 
forestation  Act"   -  Mr.    Thompson  637 

Re   BILL  NO.    23:    "An  Act   to  Amend  the  Crown  Timber  Act" 

-  Mr.    Thompson  638 

Re   BILL  NO.    36:    fAn  Act   to   Amend  the  Public  Works'    Act" 

-  Mr.    Doucett  638 

Hous*  in  Committee  v 

Re:    "An  Act  Respecting  Forest  Engineers"   -  Mr.  Thompson  658 



-  XXIV  - 

Toroiito,  Ontario, 
Friday, March  2,1945. 

The  Bill  Stands 

Ret  "The  Election  Act"  -  Mr. 
Amendmeiit  thereto 

Section  16  Stands 

Re:  Lowering  Age  of  (Qualification 

Section  17  Stands 
















































L.G.Robin  son 

(Waterloo  South) 



Murdo  ch 











The  House  Resumes 



-  XXV  - 



Toronto,    Ontario, 
Monday,   March   5,    1945. 

SPE^iKEH:      Honourable   William  J.    Stewart,    G.B.E. 



Of   the   Corporation  of    the   Town  of   Paris  680 

Of   the    Corporation  of    the  Township  of   Teck  680 

Re   "An  ^ct  to  amend  the  Municipal  House  Services  Act, 

1944"        -        Mr.   Dennison  680 

Explanation-Mr.   Dennison  681 

First   Heading  681 

Re   "An  Act   to   apiend   the   Marriage  Act" — Mr. Strange  681 

Explanation  Mr.   Strange  681 

First   Reading  681 


Return  re  governmental  employees  -  Mr.  Dunbar  682 

iieturn  re  Fire  Insurance  Mr.  Dunbar  682 

Report  -  Liquor  Control  Board  - 

year  ended  March  31,1*44  Mr.  Dunbar  682. 
24th  xinnual  Report  -  Public  Service  Superannuation 

Board  for  year  cnaed  March  31,1944  Mr.  Dunbar  682 
Report  of  Board  of  Governors  University  of 

Toronto  -  Mr.  Dunbar  682 

Oruers  in  Council  under  Guarantee  Cdfapanies 
Security  Act  and  Section  70  of  Judicature 

ACt  -  -  Mr.  Dunbar  682 

Orders  in  Council  pertaining  to  Department 

of  Education  -  Mr.  Dunbar  682 

Re  VJornen  waitresses  in  Beer  Parlors  -  Mr.  Alles  602. 

Re  Discharged  Workmen  -  Mr.  Mitchell  682 

-  Mr.  Daley  685 
Re  Discrimini^tion  in  Beer  Supplies   -  Mr.  Riggs  684 

-  Mr.  Webster  685 
Re  Return  to  House  of  Hon. Mr.  Kennedy-  Mr.  Jolliffe  687 

-  Mr.  BlBftkwell  687 
-  Mr.  Hepburn  (Elgin) 687 

-  Mr.  MacLeod  688 

-  Mr.  Kennedy  688 

-  XXVI   - 

Toronto,    Ontario 
Monday,   March  5,    194  5 

H©  Bill  Number  41   "Tlie   Securities  Aet   1945   - 

Mr.    Blackwell        688 

Explanation  -  Mr.    Blacicwell        688 

Report  of  Mining  Commission  699 

flecommendations  699 

Brokers  Eegistered  703 

Tiie  Bill  Stands  723 


0  t 

-  XXVII   - 

THE        L£GISLATIV  t  ■^.     ASSEMBLY 

f  '  '  '     ■'    ' ■       '  I      I  .       ■        I      T  «i  I  I 


Toronto,   Ontario, 
Tuesday, Mjarch   6,    19  45. 

SPEAKER!      Honourable   William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.E. 



1st  report  by  committee  on  private  Bille  740 

2nd  report  by  Committee  on  Standing  Orders  741 
Introduction  of*  "Act  to  Amend  the  Hours  of  work  and 

Vacations  with  Pay  Act,  1944 '^  -  Mr.  Williams  742 

Explanation  742 

introduction  of:  "Act  Respecting  The  Royal  Ottawa 

Sanitorlum"  -  Mr.  Laurier  743 

Introduction  of:  "Act  Respecting  the  Township  of 

CrOwland"  -  Mr.  Brown  743 

Introduction  of:  "Act  to  Amend  the  venereal  Diseaises' 

Prevention  Act  -  194E"  -  Mr.  Strange  743 

Introduction  of:  "An  Act  Respecting  the  Canadian  Legion 

of  the  B.E.S.  L.  Branch  51"  -  Mr.  Overall  743 

Explanation  _  743 

Introduction  of:  "Act  Respecting  the  City  of  Peterborough" 

-  Mr.  Scott  744 

Introduction  of:  "An  Act  Respecting  the  City  of  port 

Arthur"  -  Mr.  F.O.  Robinson  744 

Introduction  of:  "An  Act  to  Araer.d  the  Public  Health 

Act"  -  Mr.  Dennison  744 

Explanation  744 


-  XXVIII    - 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Tuesday,    March   6,    1945. 

introduction  of:    "Act   to  Amend  the  Public  Health  Act" 

-  Mr.    F.O.    Robinson  745 

Explanation  745 


Introduction  of   :    "An  Act   Respecting  the  City  of 

Kingston"   -  Mr.   H.A.    Stewart  745 

FIRST   READir^G  745 

Introduction  of:    "An  Act   Respecting  Peterborough 

Civic   Hospital"   -  Mr.    Sa>  tt  746 


Introduction  of:    "An  Act   Respecting     the  Village  of 

Swansea"   -  Mr.   Millard  746 


Re  Public  Works  Employees 

Mr.   Doucett  747 

Mr.   Daley  748 
Resuming  adjourned  debate  on   the  Amendment   to  the 
Motion   for  the   Coiisideration  of  the  Speech  of  the 

Honourable   Lieutenant  Governor              -       Mr.  Drew  748 

Re   British  Institutions  749 

Re  Government's  Present  Position  750 

Re  Dominion-Provincial  conferen-ce  753 

Re   Readjustment  of  Taxing  Power  757 

Re   Immigration  757 

Re  Air   Transportation  759 

Re   Educational   Program  760 

Re  Educational   Grants  761 

Re   Re-orgaxiization   of  Department  763 

Re   Director  of  Guidance  764 

Re   institute   of  Mining  765 

Re   Director  of  physical   an.d  Health  Education  765 

Re   cadet   Training  765 

Re  Religious  Education  767 

Re  Ontario  House  770 

Mr.   M.F.   Hepburn   -    (Elgin)         •  776 

Re   Remarks  of  Move   of  Motion  776 

Re   Australian   Situation                       ■ -^  783 

Re   Natioual  Unity  784 

Re    Relief   Delegation  785 

Re  Kirkland  Lake    Strike  787 

Re   Sirois   Report  790 

Re   Collective   Bargaining  791 

Re  Ontario  House  791 

Re    Immigration                                -'''"^  792 

Re   Address   -  Hon.   Mr.    Drew,    August   9th,    194  4  797 

Re   Religious  Education   in   Schools  798 

Re  Optometry  Act  799 

Re  Sub  Amendment   to  Amendment   to     Motion  802 


-  I 

-   XXIX  - 


FIFTEteNTH        DAY 

Toronto,    Ontario, 
Wednesday,   March  7,    1945, 

SPEAKER:      Honourable  William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.E, 


Motion  to  Kesolve  House  into  Comiaittee  of  Supply 

Mr.  Fro&t  -  806 

Explanation  -  Mr.  Frost  806 

-  Ut*    Jolliffe  807 

-  Mr.  Hepburn! Elgin)  807 

-  Mr,  Drew  808 
The  Motion  being  put,  the  Houee  divided  809 

Introduction  of:   "An  Act  to  Authorize  the  Appointment 

of  an  Ontario  Fuel  Commission"    -  Mr.  Dennison  812 

Explanation  -  Mr.  Dennison  812 

-  Mr.  Nixon  812 

Introduction  of:  "An  ACt  Respecting  the  Ontario 

Music  Teachers'  Association"      -  Mr.  Martin  812 


Introduction  of :"An  Act  to  Amend  the  Municipal 

xiCt"  -  Mr.  Anderson  813 

Explanation  -  Mr.  Anderson  813 


Introduction  of:   "An  Act  to  Amend  the  ijog  Tax 

and  Live  Stock  Protection  ACt"    -  Mr.  Doucett  813 

1Expi«na^ifcc«u  -  Mr.   Doucett  814 

-  Mr.  Mitchell  814 

Introduction  of:      "An  ACt   to  Authorize   the   Corporation 
of  the  City  of  Toronto   to  Plan  and  Zone   the 

Municipality"  -  Mr.   Roberts  813 


-   XXX 

Toronto,  Onljario, 
Wednesday,  l\iarch  7,  1945. 

Introduction  of; 
Introduction  of: 
Labour  xict" 
Introduction  of: 

Introduction  of: 


"An  Act  Respecting  the  City  of 

-  Mr.  Roberts 

"An  Act  to  Amend  the  Statute 

-  l&Tt    Douc«tt 

"An  Act  to  Confirm  Tax  Sales" 

-  Mi".  Dunbar 

"An  Act  to  Amend  the  Bees  Act" 

-  Mr.  Doucett 

-  Mr.  Doucett 

Re  Legality  of  Motion  re  Budget  - 

Re  Votes  and  Proceedings  -  1943 
Re  Votes  ana  Proceedings  -  1942 

-  Mr.  Hepburn 

-  Mr.  Jolliffe 

-  Mr.  Belanger 

-  Mr.  MacLeod 

-  Mr.  Jolliffe 

-  Mr.  Drew 

-  Mr.  Hepburn 

-  Mr.  Belanger 

-  Mr .Thornberry 

-  MTt  Salsberg 

-  Ut ,   Hepburn 

-  Mr.  Mitchell 

-  Mr.  Grummett 

-  Mr.  Overall 
Ruling  on  Motion                  -  Mr.  Speaker 
Appeal  From  Ruling                 -  Mr.  Hepburn 
The  Motion  on  the  Appearl  being  put  the  Ho^se  Divided 
Resuming  adjourned  debate  on  Motion  for  Second 
Reading  of  BILL  NO. 41  "The  Securities  Act  -  1945" 

-  Mr.  Blackwell 

-  Mr.  Jolliffe 

Motion  to  refer  Bill  to  Coramittie  on  Legal  Bills  - 

-  Mr.  Jolliffe 

-  Mr.  Blackwell 

-  Mr.  Acres 

~  Mr.  Blackwell 
The  Bill  Stands 












-  XXXI   - 

THE L  E   Gl   S  LATIVE        ASSEMBLY 


Toronto,  Ontario, 
Thursday,    March  6,    1945. 

SPEAKER:      Honourable   William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.E. 


Introduction  of:  "An  Act  to  Amend  the  Optometry  Act" 

-  Mr.  Hepburn  (Elgin)  879 

Explanation  -  Mr.  Hepburn  (Elgin)  879 


introduction  of  "An  Act  to  Enable  Municipalities  to 
Establish  Community  Planning  »d  Housing  Authorities' 
-  Mr .  Warren 


Introduction  of:  "An  Act  to 
Engineers'  Act"  -  Mr.  Scott 
Explanation  -  Mr.  Scott 

Amend  the  Professional 


Introduction  of  :  "An  Act  to  Provide  for  the  Relief 
of  Persons  who  have  Substantial  Impairment  by  Illness 
or  Unemployment  or  any  other  Cause  Beyond  their  control 
with  Respect  to  Their  Homes  "  -  Mr .  warren  881 

Motion  Stands  881 

Introduction  of  :  "An  Act  to  Amend  the  Public  Trustees 

Act"  -  Mr.  Blackwell  881 

Explanation  -  Mr.  Blackwell  '                881 


Introduction  of 
-  Mr .  Frost 

"An  Act  to  Amend  the  Mining  Act" 



-   XXXII   - 

Toronto,  Ontario, 
Thursday,    March  8,    1945. 

Introduction  of:    "An  Act   to  Amend   the  Evidence   Act" 

-  Mr.   Blackwell  882 


Re   Fire   in  Parliament   Buildings   -     Mr.   Doucett  882 

■Motion  to   Adjourn  on  Matter  of  Urgency  -  Mr.   jolliffe  883 

Re  Labour  Relations  Board  -     Mr.    Jolliffe  883 

Mr.    Daley  889 

Mr.   salsberg  901 

Mr.   Millard  908 

Mr.  Leavens  913 

Mr.   Qarlin  914 

Mr.   Blackwell  915 

Mr.   Hepburn (Elgin)  918 

Mr.   Williams  918 

Mr.   Drew  927 

Resuming  Adjourned  Debate  on   the   Sub  Amendment   to   the 

Amendment   to    the  Motion  for   the  Consideration   of  the 

Spftech  of  the  Honourable  Lieutenant  Governor  929 

Mr.  MacLeod  929 

Re  Fire   in    parliament  Building  929 

Re  Minister  of     Planning  and  Development  -Mr  .Porter  930 

Re  Minister  without  Portfolio   -  Mr.   Webster  930 

Re   Congratulations  to  Move  and  Seconder  931 

Re   Changes  in  war  Situation  933 

Re  World   Trade  Union  Conference  935 

Re  Extracts  from  Canadian  Forum  9  36 

Re  Post-war     Markets  941 

Re   New  Zealand  socialism  94£ 

Re   Regina  Speech   by  Mr.    Jolliffe  947 

Re  Legislative   Situation  in  Ontario  -  1944  949 

Debate  Adjourned  952 



■Willi      ■!     ■  !■»■      II        ■IIIMMi         ■■■ll^— .—  I      !■■    I        ll»^^r— — ■  1— I  ■  — r^^^i         ,       I       I      I— M,.MI^M  ■     .M.  II         MM,         |i|M,     MIIIIIIB      I  IIIIMI» 


Toronto,    Ontario 
Friday,   Maj:ch  9,    194  5. 

SPEAKER:      Honourable  William  J.   Stewart,   C.B.E. 


House  in  Committee  of  Supply 

BUDGET  -  Hon.  Mr.  Frost  (Provincial  Treasurer)  953 

He  Dominion  Provincial  Relations  954 

Re  Details  Tax  Burden  Shift      •  957 

-"tfte  Education  -  Grants  for  957 

Re  Powers  of  Province  to  raise  money  962 

Re  Change  in  Real  Estate  Taxation  962 

Re  Conservation  and  Flood  Control  964 

Re  Hydro  Developments  965 

Re  Servicing  Public  Debt  965 

Statement  -  Funded  Debt  968 

Public  Financing  969 

Business  for  Year  ended  torch  31  972 

Province  of  Ontario  savings  Offices  973 

Highway  973 

^igricultural  Loans  974 

Ordinary  Expenditure  975 

Statement  of  Ordiaary  Revenue  977 


Statement  of  Summary  979 


Statement  of  Capital  Receipts  981 


Statement  of  Capital  Payments  983 

Statement  of  Estimated  Decrease  in  Gross  Debt  984 

Statement  of  Contingent  Liabilities  985 

Statement  of  Estimated  Decrease  Net  Debt  986 

flays  ana  Means  987 

Budget  Forecast  -  Revenue  990 

-  Ordinary  Expeditures  991 

-  capital  Receipts  992 

-  Capital  Payments  993 

-   XXXIV  - 

Toronto,    Ontario, 
Friday,    March   9,    1945. 

Summary  -  Estimated 

Summary  of  Salient  F 

Ordinary  Net  Hevenuo 

of  Agriculture 

of  Game  and  Fisheries 

of  Health  -and  Welfare 

of  Labour    ' 

of  Mines 

of   Lands  and  Forests 
trie  Power  Commission 

of  Municipal  Affairs 

of  Education 
eatures   of  Budget 




-  XXXV   - 

B  I  "Q  H  T  E  E  N   T  H  p  A  Y 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Monday,   March  12,    1945, 

SPEAKER:     Honourable  William  j.   Stewart,    C.B.E. 


Introduction  of:    '♦An  Act  to  Amend  the  Nurses' 
Registration  Act"  -  Mr.  Vivian 

Introduction  of  :  "An  Act  to  Provide  Relief  for 
Persons  who  have  Suffered  Substantial  Impairment  of 
Income  Owing  to  Unemployment  or  Any  Other  cause 
Beyond  Their  Control  in  Respect  to  Their  Homes  " 
-  Mr.  warren 

Introduction  of:  "An 
Diseases'  Prevention 

Act  to  Amend  the  Venereal 
Act"  -  Mr,  Vivian 

Introduction  of:  "An  Act  to  Amend  the  Hours  of  work 
and  vacations  with  Pay  Act  -  1944"  -  Mr.  Daley 

Introduction  of  :  "An  Act  to  Amend  the  Mddipal  Act" 
-  Mr.  Vivian 




100  5 


Introduction  of:  "Axi   Act  to  Provide  Financial 
Protection  for  Persons  who  Have  Suffered  Substantial 
Impairment  of  Income  Owing  to  Illness,  Unemployment 
or  Other  Cause  Beyond  Their  Control"  -  B4r.  warren     10C6 
Explanation  1006 


'■^ioiJAoa  1^:  Si! 

-  XXXVI   - 

Toronto,  Ontario, 
Monday,   March  IE, 


Introduction  of: 
Act"   -  Mr.   Daley 

"An  Act   to   Amend  the  Minimum  Vage 

welcome  to 

Re  Labour 
He  Employe 
Mr.  Mi 
Tabling  of 
25,  26,  au 
Tabling  of 
Tabling  of 

Delegation  French  Underground 

Mr.   Drew 
Mr.   Jolliffe 
conditions  -  Oshawa-  Mr.   Williams 

es'    Lay  Off    Plant  on  Lake  Front 
t Che  11 

Replies  to  Questions  1,6,10,14,    24, 
d  27   -   -         Mr.   Drew 

Correspondence   -  Provincial  and  Dominion 
's  re  Old  Age  pensions  -  Mr.   Drew 

Interim  Report  of  Agricultural 

of  Inquiry  -  Mr.   Drew 

House    in  Committee 
Re   BILL  NO.    31   -    "The 







Amendment  Sub-Section   6 


Election  Act" 


Mr.  Blackwell 















Mr.  jolliffe 











Mr.  Dennison 



Mr.  Grummet t 



6      Mr.  Murphy 



Mr.  Casselman 


-  XXXVII    - 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Monday,    March  12,    1945. 

Mr .  Dunbar 


Mr.  Strange 


Mr.  Nixon 


Mr.  Roberts 



Mr.  Salsberg 


Mr.  Leavens 


Mr.  Mitchell 


Miss  Macphail 


Amendment  Sub-Section  1 

Section  292 


Mr.  Blackwell 



Mrs.  Luckock 



Mr .  Cook     ti 


Bill  Reported 


House   in  Committee  on  BILL  MO.   37:    "An  Act  to    Repeal 

the  Political  Contributions  Act"  <  1051 

House   in  committee   on  BILL  NO.   38:    "An  Act   to  Amend 

the  Judicature  Act".  1051 

The  House  Resiimed  1052 
BILL  NO.    42:    "An  Act  Respecting  Prospecting  Syndicates 
Having  a   Capital  Not  Exceeding  ^10,000.00"  - 

Mr.   Blackwell  1052 


BILL  NO.    63:      "An  Act    to  Amend  the   Public  Trustees 

Act"   -     Mr.    Blackwell  lQ5fe 

Mr.    Blackwell  1053 

Mr.  Williams  1053 

Mr.   jolliffe  1054 


BILL  NO.    65:       "An  Act  to  Amend   the  Public  Health  Act" 

-  Mr.   Vivian  1056 

Mr.   Vivian  1056 

Mr.  Mitchell  1059 

Mr .  Dennison  1060 







Toronto,    Ontario, 
Tuesday,   March  13,    1945. 


Honourable  William  J.  Stewart,  C.B.E. 


Second  Report  Standing  Committee  on  Miscellaneous 
Private  Bills 

Final  Report  -  Standing  Committee  on  Standing  Orders 

Introduction  of:   "An  iict  to  Amend  the  Liquor 
Authorities  Control  Act"  1944         -  Mr.  Blackwell 



Introduction  of: 

Introduction  of: 
of  Teck" 
Introduction  of: 
Improvement  Act" 
Introduction  of: 
of  Stamford 
Introduction  of: 

"An  ACt  Respecting  the  Town  of 

-  Mr.  Nixon 

"An  ACt  Respecting  the  Township 

-  Mto  GruLmett 

"An  Act  to  Amend  the  Highways 

-  Mr.  Doucett 

"An  AQt  Respecting  the  Township 

-  Mr.  Overall 

"An  Act  Respecting  the  City  of 

-  Mr.  Patrick 

Resuming  Adjourned  Debate  on  the  Sub-Amen-dment  to 
the  Amendment  to  the  M  otion  for  the  Consideration 
of  the  speech  of  the  Honourable  Lieutenant  Governor 

Mr.  MacLeod: 

In  Re  1944  Session 

Re   Family  Allowances 

Extract  from  Public  Statement  August  13,  1944 







-  iXXIX  - 

Toronto,  Ontario, 
Tuesday,  March  13,  1945, 

Globe  and  Mail  re  Mr.  Gar son 
Globe  and  Mail  re  Dr.  Silcox 
He  Ke-inforcements 
i^e  Eeucation 
He  "fied  Bogey" 

-  Mr,.  Dr-ejg 
-Magistrate  Jones 
-J. B. Priestly 

-  Mr.  Jolliffe 
-Mr.  Hepburn 

Re  Unfulfilled  Promises 
Re  Amendment 
Re  Sub -Amendment 
Re  Religious  Education 
He  Immigration 

Re  Want  of  Confidence  Motion 
Re  Election  in  Grey  North 

Re  Kirkland  Lake  and  other  Lab.pur  Disputes 
Re  Labour  experiences 
Re  conservative  War  Record  1914-].918 
Re  War  Time  Election 

Re  Mr.  MacLeod's  suggested  "14  points"  for 
Alternative  Government 

Hon.  R.P.Vivian  (Minister  of  Health) 
Re  Health  Services 
Re  Specialized  Health  Services 
Re  Saskatchewan  Health  Services  Act 
Re  Complete  Health  Prograiane 

Five  Points  of: 

For  School  Ghilaren 

Regional  Services 

Health  Education 

Industrial  Hygiene 

Medical  Care 

Cash  Indemnities 
Re  Health  Undertakings  of Administration 
Re  Sanitoria 






-  XL  - 


Toronto,    Ontario, 
Tuesday,    March  13,    1945, 

SPEAKER:        Honourable  William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.E, 


Resuming  adjourned  Debate  on  the  Sub-Amendment  to 
the  Amdndment  to  the  Motion  for  the  Consideration 
of  theSpeech  of  the  Honourable  Lieutenant  Governor 

Mr.  Millard  1122 

He  V/orld  Trade  Union  Conference  1123 

Re  Conditions  in  Holland  and  Belgium  1132 

Re  Visit  to  Canadian  Troops  1136 

Re  Ontario  House  1142 

Re  "Everybody's  Weekly--9/30/44»»  1144 

Re  "Prospective  Citizenship  in  Ontario"  1149 

Reply  by  -  Mr.  Drew  1155 

Re  Remarks  by  Hono  Mr.  Porter  1162 

Re  Patronage  1165 

Re  "Christian  Period"  1168 

Re  Empiire  Parliamentary  Association"  1171 

Mr.  Duff  1173 

Re  Congratulations  to  Mover  and  Seconder  ,  1173 

Re  Bruce  County  1173 

Re  Post-war  Planning  1174 

Re  Re-establishment  of  Returned  Service  Men  1175 

Re  Electric  Power  -  Bruce  County  1177 

Re  Reforestation  1178 

Re  Stock  yards         ,  1180 

Re  Livestock  1181 

Re  Ontario  Agricultural  College  1182 

Mr.  Alles  -  1184 

Re  Labour  1184 

Re  Recammendations  Canadian  Congress  ot   Labour  1186 


-  XLI  - 

THE   LEGISLATI  V  E  A  S  S  E  M  B  L  Y 


Toronto,  Ontario, 
Weiinesday,  March   14,    1945, 

SPEAKER:     Honourable  William  J.   atewart,    C.B.E. 


Reports:  -        Mr.  Frost 

Re  BILL  W.    41. "The  Securities  Act"  1945 

Be  BILL  WO.  42.  "An  Act  Respecting  Prospecting 

Syndicates  Having  capital  wot  Exceeding  |35,000. 

Introduction  of  :  "An 
Subsidy  Act  -  1945  " 

Act  Intituled  Sugar  Beet 
-  Mr.  Doucett 
Mr.  Doucett 




Introduction  of  :  "An  Act  to  Amend  the  Fire  Department 

Act"  -  Mr.  Blackwell  1192 

Explanations  -  Mr.  Blackwell  119» 


Re  Tax  Collectors'  Bonds  - 
Letter  Robinson  to  McMannus 

Mr.  Hepburn 

Mr.  Doucett 
Mr.  Jolliffe 
Mr.  Drew 
Motion  to  Resolve  House  into  Committee  of  Supply 

Mr.  Frost 
Mr.  Hepburn 

Mr .  Drew 
Mr.  Jolliffe 









-  XLII    - 


The  Motion   Being  Put   the 

Ml* .   Fro  St 
Mr.   Drew 
House   Divided 

House   in   Committee 

He  Supplementary  Estimates 



Mr*   Frost 

Mr.  L.G.   Robinson 

(Waterloo  South) 
Mr.  Brown 
Mr.   Jolliffe 

Mr.  Taylor    (Temiskinming) 

Mr  *  Dunbar 

Mr.  Hepburn (Elgin) 

Mr.  ^nnett 
Mr.  MacLeod 
Mr.  Millard 
Mr.  Salsberg 
Mr.  Williams 
Mr  .  Acres 
Mr.  Nixon 




12  66 
123  7 

The  committee  Recessed 


-  XLIII  - 




Toronto,    Ontario, 
Wednesday,   March  14,    1941 

SPEAKER:      Honourable   William  J.   Stewart,    C.B.E, 


The  Committee  Resumes  12'?5 

Mr.   F.O.   Robinson  (Port  Arthur)      1275 
Mr.    Grummett  1276 

Mr.    Hig^gs  1278 

Mr.    Frost  1279 




Mrs.  Luckock  1281 

Mr.  Bennett  1284 

Mr.  Joliiffe  1285 

Mr.  Webster        '  1285 

Mr.  Dunbar  15,92 

Mr.  B]ackwell  1295 

Mr.  Alles  1299 

Mr.  Millard  1301 

Estimate  agreed  to  1308 

Resuming  the  Adjourned  Debate  on  the -Sub-xoaendment  to 

the  Amendment  to  the  Motion  for  the  consideration 

of  the  speech  of  the  Honourable  Lieutenant  Governor  1308 

Mr.  Roberts  ^308 

Re  Prime  Minister  Aadress  1308 

He  Go-operation  1309 

Re  Hon.  Member  for  Elgin  (Mr.  Hepburn)  1310 

Re  Family  Allowances      '  1318 

Re  Provincial  Unity  1323 

Re  Mining  Industry  1325 


XLJV  - 

Toronto,    Ontario 
Wednesday,   March  14,    194  5. 

Re  Canadian  Army  Status  1333 

Re  Sub-Amendment  1334 

Re  Religiia^i Education  in  Schools  1334 

Regulation  22    of  General  Regulations  1336 

Re  Canadian  Troops  Overseas  1338 

Miss  Agnes  Macphail:  1340 

Re  Stock  Yards  1340 

He  Facilities   in  Parliament  Buildings  1342 

Re  Sessional  Stenogra fliers'  Quarters  1344 

Re  "ansard  Reports*  Quarters  1344 

Re  Suggestions  for   improving  facilities  1346 

Re  Lengthening  Session  1348 

Re  Legislative  Library  1349 

Re  Facilities  for   the  Aged  1350 
Re  Society  of  Housing  Managers   in  Great  Britain         1352 

Re  Sweden's  Care  of   the  Aged  1356 

Re  Housing  Programme  1358 

Re  Russia's  Care   of   the  Aged  1359 


-  XLV  - 
T  W  E  N   T  Y— F  I   R  S  T  DAY 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Thursday,     March  15,    1945. 

SPEAKER:     Honourable  William  J.   Stewart,    C.  B. E. 


Introduction  of  Bills: 


Point  of  Privilege  Re  Globe  and  Mail  Editorial 

-  Mr.  salsberg 
1. Collective  Bargaining  negotiations  re   Ford  Motor 

2. collective  Bargaining  negotiations  re   Gold  Mines 

of  JiJorthern  untario 
3. Collective   Bargaining  negotiations  re   Canada  Bread 

company ,    Toron  to . 
4. Collective   Bargaining  negotiations  re  Canadian 

Westinghouse  Company,      Hamilton 
5. Collective  Bargaining  negotiations  re  Electro 

Metallurgical  Company,   welland 
6. Collective  Bargaining  negotiations  re  Halifax  Ship 

Yard  s 
7. Collective  Bargaining  negotiations  re   Imperial 

Optical  Company 

Report  of 

Report  of 
March  31, 
Report  of 
March  31, 
Beport  of 
Report  of 
M»rch  31, 

Department  of    Labour,    ending  March  31,1944 

G.H.   Dunbar 
Department  of  Public  Works,    ending 
1944.    -  G.H.   Dunbar 

Prisons  and  Reformatories  ending 
1944.   -  G.H.    Dunbar 

Distribution  of  Sessional  Statutes  of 
1944.    -  G.H.    Dunbar 

Ontario  Training  Schools,    ending 
1944.    -  G.H.    Dunbar 

13  68 



-  XLVI  - 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Tliursday,   March  15,    1945* 

Report  of  Receipts  and   Disbursements  of  Royal  Ontario 
Museum  ending  June  30th,    1944riS.H.    Dunbar  1376 

H«suming  Adjourned  Debate  on   the   Sub-Amexidment  to  the 
Amendment  to   the  Motion  for   the  consideration  of  the 
Speech  of  the  Honourable   Lieutenant  Governor 

Mr.   Ross  A.  McEwing   (Wellington  North)  -- 
Re  Dismissal  of  civil  Servants 
Re  Agriculture 
Re  Point  No.   4  of  2E-Point  Programme  -  Agricultural 

Re   Stock  Yards  and  Markets 
Re  Adequate   supply  of  fuel,    milk,    and  other 

Re  Lands  and  Forests 
He  Post-war  Farm  Labour  and  Industry 

Mr.   Leslie  Hancock   (Wellington  South) 

Re  Welfare  and   Social  servicea 

Re  Education  and  Religion  in  Schools 

Re   Planning  and  Development 

Re  Agriculture 

Re  Labour 

Re  Hon.   Prime  Minister's  Address  at  Speaker's 

Re  Division  of  (Opposition 

Hon,   Charles  Daley   (Minister  of  Labour) 

Re  Leader  of  Opposition's  Speech  -  Mr.    Jolliffe 

Re  Mr.   Hepburn's  Speech 

Re  Communists 

Re  Civil  Ser^tice 

Re  labour  Laws  and  Unions 

Re  Small  Business  Man 





















-  XLVII  - 





Toronto,   Ontario, 
Thursday, March  15,    1945, 

SPEAKER:  Honourable  William  J.  Stewart,  C.B.E. 


Honourable   Charles  Daley   (Minister  of     Labour) 

Re  Skilled  and  Unskilled  Labour  14  35 

Re  Workmen's  compensation  and  Holidays  1438 

Re  Trade   Unions  1444 

Re  Holidays   With  Pay  1445 

Mr.  W.C.    Riggs   (windsor-waklerville)  1447 

Re   Unions  1448 

Re  Private  Enterprise          _  1449 

Re  Ford  Motor  Company          '  1450 

Re  Chemurgy  committee  1454 

Re  Agriculture  1455 

Mr.   R.    Hobbs  Taylor   (Huron)  1460 

Re  History  of   Government  1462 

Re   Government  Promises  and  Accomplishments  1463 
Re  Attitude  of  Public  to  Certain  Political     parties       1469 

Re   question  of   Political  Appointments  1472 

Re  Taxation  Schemes  1477 

Re  Family  Allowances  14  80 

Mr.   Drew  -  Re  Quotation  from  Evening  Telegram 

Mr.  R.    Hobbs   Taylor 

Re   Religious  Education   in  Schools 

Re   Immigration 

Re   Socialist   Schemes 




-     XLVIII   - 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Thursday,    March  15,    1945, 

Mr.   F.W.   warren    (Hamilton-went worth) 

Re  Putting     Party  Above  welfare  of  People 

Re   Saskatchewan  Government 

Re  Department  of  Banning  and  Development 

Re     Housing 

Re  Manual  Training  in  Schools 

Re  Upkeep  of  Schools 

Re   50^  Grant 




-  XLIX  - 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Friday,    March  16,    194  5. 

SPEAKER:      Honourable  William  j.   Stewart,    C.B.E. 


First  Report  of  Select  Committee  on  Art  Expenditures  1510 

Introduction  of  Bills  -  First   Reading  1512 
point  of  Privilege   Re  Gasoline    Tax  Collections 

-     Mr.    Doucett  1513 

Correspondence  Re  Gasoline   Tax  Collectioiis  1521 

Re   Pipe  Line  1520. 

Re  C.I.L.   Strike   in  Toronto   -  Mr.  Williams    (Ontario)  1540 
Re  Local  504  of  United  Electric  Radio  and  Machine 

Workers'   Association  -  Mr.   Williams   (Ontario)  1542 

House  Dissolved  into  Committee  of  the  whole  1551 

BILL  NO ^44  -^  Sexjurities  Act   -   1945.  Mr.Blackwell  1551 

ADJO    URNMENT  1551 

-I  - 


TWENTY        THIRD       DAY 

Toronto,     Ontario, 
I^onday,     March  19,    19  45. 

SPEAKER:     Honourable  William  J.   Stewart,    C.B.E. 


Introduction  of  Bills 


Re  Conversation  Between  |ilr.  Daly  and  Rt.  Hon. 

Mackenzie  King    -  Mr.H«rry  c.   Nixon 

House  Resolved  into  coouaittee  of   the  whole 



41. Securities  Act  - 



Sections  > 
































Mr.  Blaokwell 




BILL  NO.   42:      "Act  Respecting  Prospecting  Syndiaates"  1618 

BILL  NO.    44:      "Public  Health  Act   -  Sections  1   -   7"  1619 

Section  2  1625 

BILL  NO.    63:      "Public  Trustees  Act"  Reported 
BILL  NO.    65:      "Svidence  Act"     Reported 



-  LI  - 

Toronto,  Ontario » 
Monday,  March  19,  1945. 

House  Resumed  1631 
BllX  37:   "Act  to  repeal  Political  Contributions  Act"  1632 


BILL  NO .38:   "Act  to  Amend  Judicature  Act"  1632 


BILL  NO.  56:   "Act  to  Amend  Dog  Tax  and  Livestock 

Protection  Act"  1633 

S£(X)MD  READING  1633 

BILL  NO.  65:   "Act  to  Amend  Mining  Act"  -  Mr.  Frost   1634 


BILL  NO.  57:   "Act  to  Amend  Statute  Labours  Act"      1636 


BILL  NO.  47:   "Act  to  Amend  Workmsn's  Compensation 

Act"  -  Mr.  Daley  1636 


BILL  NO.  58:   "Act  to  Confirm  Tax  Sales"  -           1638 


BILL  NO.  59:   "Act  to  Amend  Bees  Act"    -           1639 


BILL  NO.  73:   "Act  to  Amend  Liquor  Authority  control 

Act,  1944"  1639 


BILL  NO.   46:      "Act  to    Amend  Public  Hospitals  Act" 

•  Mr.  V).vian  1640 


Discussion  Re  Principle  of  Bill   No.    46  1642 


-  LII  - 

THE    L  £  G  I  SLA  T  I  V  £    A   S  S  E  M  B  L  Y 

TWENTY  .  T  H  I  R  D    DAY 


Toronto,   Ontario, 
Monday,   March  19,    1945. 

SPEAKER:      Honourable   filliam  J.   Stewart,    C.B.E. 

I  N  Q  £  X 

BILL  NO.  35:   "Damage  by  Fumes  Arbitration  Act" 

-  Mr.  Frost 


BILL  NO.  66:   "Nurses  Registration  Act" 

-  Mr.  Vivian 


BILL  NO.  68:   "Venereal  Diseases  prevention  Act" 

-  Mr.  Vivian 


BILL  NO.  69:   "Hours  of  work  and  Vacations  with  Pay 

Act"  -  Mr.  Daley         1669 


-  Mr.  Williams 

-  Mr.  Salsberg 


^-:Liir  - 

Toronto,   Ontario, 
Moudiay,   March   19,    19  45. 

BILL  NO.   70:      "Medical  Act"  -  Mr.   Vivian 


BILL  NO.  72:   '♦Minimum  Wage  Act"  -  Mr.  Daley  1678 


Mr.  Daisy  1678 

Mr.  Millard  1679 

Mr.  Williams  1681 

Mr.  Mitchell  1686 

Mr.  aalsberg  1687 
Mr.  Robinson 

(Waterloo  south)    1691 

Mr.  Alles  1692 

Mr.  Leavens  1694 

Mr.  Riggs  1695 

BILL  NO.  74:  "Highway  Improvement  Act"  -MrkDOUcett    1696 


BILL  NO.  75:   "Sugar  Beet  Subsidy  Act" 


BILL  NO.  76:   "Fire  Departments  Act"  -Mr.  BlackWell  1698 


Bill.  NO.  78:   "Factory, Shop  and  Office  Building  Act"  1702 


BILL  NO.  79:   "Public  Vehiclea  Act" 

170  2 

BILL  NO.   80:      "Commercial  vehicles  Act" 

BILL  NO.    82:      •♦Trustee  Act"       Mr.  aiackwell 
SECOi\^      SADING 








.    2.    "Act  Respecting  Town  of  Barrie" 

.    3.    "Act   Respecting  City   of   we  Hand" 

.    6.    "Act  Respecting  City  of  WQodstoolc" 

.   8.    "Act  Respecting  incorporation  Synod  of 

Diocese  of  Niagara" 
.   10. "Act   Respecting  Evangelical  Lutheran 

Seminary  of  Canada" 
.   11. "Act  Respecting  City  of  St.  Thomas" 
5."A<5t   Respecting  City  of  Peterborough" 
9.    "4et   Respecting  city  of  Kingston" 
12. "Act  Respecting  city  of  Poyt  Arthur" 
4.    "Act   Respecting  Royal  Ottawa  Sanatorium" 
7.    "Act   Respecting  Peterborough  Civic 





-   LIV   - 

Toronto,    Ontario, 
Monday,   March  19,    1945. 

BILL  NO.  13.   "Act  Respecting  City  of  Ottawa  Separate 

School  Board  1706 

House  in  Committee  1706 

BILL  NO.  34.   "Act  Respecting  Forest  Engineers" 

Section  2  1706 

Mr.  Overall  1706 

Mr.  Blackwell  1709 

On  Section  4.    "Act  Respecting  Forest  Engineers" 

Mr.  Millard  1712 

On  Section  6.    "Act  Respecting  Forest  "Engineers" 

Mr .Hepburn    (Elgin)  1714 

Mr.    Belanger  1720 

On  Section   11.    "Act   Respecting  Forest  Engineers" 

Mr.  Miller  1721 

Bill  Reported  1727 

House  Resumed 


-  LV  ^ 



Toronto,   Ontario, 
Tuesday,    March  20,    19  45, 

SPEAKER:      Honourable  William  J.   Stewart,    C.B.|S. 


Third  Heport  of  standing  committee  on  Miscellaneous 

pjrivate  Bills  X729 

Introduction  of  Bills 


"An  Act  to  Amend  Municipal  Act"  1730 

"An  Act  to  Amend  Minimum  Wage  Act"  1730 

"An  Act  to  Amend  Public  Schools  Act"  1730 

"An  Act  to  Amend  Companies  Act,"  1731 

"An  Act  to  Amend  Separate  Schools  Act"  1731 
'  "An  Act  to  Amend  Loan  and  Trust  corporations 

Act".  1732 

"An  ACt  to  Amend  Mining  Tax  ^*ct"  1732 

Sxplani*  Ion  re  "Loan  and  Trust  Corporation  Act" 

-  Mr.   iackirell  1732 
ExplamatlcA  re  "Mining  Tax  Act" 

-  Mr.  Frost  1733 
Mr.  Millard  on  Matter  of  Public  Interest  -  Strike 

at  Sault  Ste.  Marie  1734 

Mr.  Alles  -  Re  Hydro  Electric  Power  commission        1737 
Mr.  Hancock  -  Re  Japanese  in  Ontario  1739 

Resuming  adjourned  debate  on  the  sub-amendment  to  the 
amendment  to  the  motion  for  the  consideration  of  the 
speech  of  the  Honourable  Lieutenant  Governor 
Mr.  F.R-  Oliver  (Grey  South)  1740 

He  aahabilitation  of  Rural  Ontario  1741 

Re  Agriculture  1745 

Re  Stockyards  1749 

-  LVI  - 

Toronto,  Ontario, 
Tuesday,  March  SD  ,    1945. 

Re  Agricultural  Inquiry  Commission  and  Its  Report   1753 

Re  Marketing  1*^62 

Re  Dominion  Insurance  on  Hogs  1767 

Mr.  G.  Lockhart  (Rainy  River)  1780 

Hfr  Agriculture  1781 

Re  Rural  Education  1793 

Bis   Agricultural  commission  1797 

Mr..R.D.  Hiornberry  (Hamilton  Centre)  1805 

Re  Socialism  1811 

ADJO    URtJMENT  1816 

-  LVII   - 


TWENTY        FOURTH        DAY 


Toronto,   Ontario, 
Tuesday,   March  20,    1945. 

SPEAKER:     Honourable   William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.E. 


Mr«   R.D.   Thornberry    (Hamilton   Centre) 
Re   British  Institutions 


Mr.   J.B.   Salsberg   (St.   Andrew) 
Re   Government  Employees 
Re  Hydro 

Re  Labour-Progressive  Principles 
^e   Communism 
Re  Labour 
Re   Iriigration 
Re  j?;    ; cat  ion 
Re  hdcial  Discrimination 

Mr.   W.L.   Miller   (Algoma-Manitoulin) 
Re  Mining  Industry 
Re   Dominion-Provincial  Conference 
Re  Forest   Industry 
Re  Highways 

Mr.,  Arthur  Williams    (Ontario) 
Re  Labour 







T  W  E  N    T  Y        FIFTH  DAY. 

A  F  T  E  R  W  0   ON      SESSION. 

Toronto,  Ontario. 
Wednesday,   March  21,    X945. 

SPEAKER:      Honourable   William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.E. 


Report  of  Standing  Conuaittee  on  Printing  1893. 

introduction  of  "An  Act   to  amend  the  Labour  Relations 

Board  Act"   -  Mr.  Williams  1895. 

F'^st   Reading  1895. 

Introduction  of   "An  Act  respecting  the   purchase  of 

cattle   with  horns"   -  Mr.  Doucett  1895 

First   Raading  1895. 

Introduction  of   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Workmen's  Com- 
pensation Act"   -  Mr.   Williams  1896. 
First  Reading  1896. 

Re:    ilult  Education  Board  -  Mr.   Drew  1896. 

Re;    1       3ocurities'   Act,    1945  -  Mr.  fl]ft  cicwell  1901. 

Third  neauing                                                                                  '  1901. 

Re:    An  Act  respecting  Prospecting  Synidcaies  with  a    • 

8   capital  not  exceeding  |35, 000.00   -  Mr.  Blackwwll  1902. 

Third   Reading  1902. 

Re;   An  Act   to   amend  the  Public  Trustee's  Act"   - 

Mr.    Blackwell  1902. 

Third  Reading  1902. 

Re;   An  Act  to   amend  the  Evidence  Act**   -  Mr.   Blackwell,  1902. 

Third  Reading  1902. 

R«:An  Act  respecting  Forest  Engineers"   -  Mr.    Thompson,  1902. 

Third  Reading  1902. 

Re:    Withdrawal  of  An  Act  Respecting  Forest  Engineers"  1903. 


House  iu  Conmittee: 

Bill  i\o.  2;  "An  Act  rtapecting  the  Town  of  Barrie"  - 

Mr.  Johnston  1916. 

Bill  Reported.  1916. 

B411  No.  3;  "An  Act  respecting  the  City  of  Welland"  - 

Mr.Browb.  1916. 

Bill  Reported.  1916. 

Bill  No.  6.  "An  Act  respecting  the  City  of  Woodstock"  - 

Mr.  Dent.  1917. 

Bill  Reported.  1917. 

Bill  NO.  8:   "An  Act  respecting  the  Incorporated 

Synod  of  the  Diocese  of  Niagara,  -  Mr. 

Roberts,  1917. 

Bill  Reported.  1917. 

Bill  No.  10.  "An  Act  respecting  the  Evangelical 

Lutheran  Seminary  of  Canada"  -  Mr.  Cook.   1917. 

Bill  Reported.  1917. 

Bill  No.  11.  •»An  Act  respecting  the  City  of  St. 

Thomas"  -  Mr. Hepburn  (Elgin).  1919. 

Bill  Reported.  1919. 

Bill  No.  5;  "An  Act  respecting  the  City  of  Peter- 
borough" -  Mr.  Scott  1919, 
Bill  Reported.  1919. 

Bix'  NO.  9;  "AnAct  xespecting  the  City  of  Kingston"  - 

Mr. Stewart  ^Kingston) ;  1920. 

Bill  reported.  1920. 

Bill  No.  12:  "An  Act  respecting  the  city  of  Port 

Arthur"  -  Mr.  Robinson  (Port  Arthur).  1920. 

Bill  reportc  1.  1920. 

Bill  No.  4:   "%!  Act  respecting  the  Royal  Ottawa 

Sanitorium"  -  Mr.  Laurier.  1920. 

Bill  -   *port«d.  1920. 

Bill  iv^. .  "  "Afi  Act  respecting  the  Peterborough 

Civic  Hospital  "  -  Mr .  Scott.  1921. 

Mr.  Patterson,  1921. 

Mr.  Vivian  ,  1921. 

Bill  reported,  1923. 

Bill  No.  13;  "An  Act  respecting  the  Ottawa  Separate 

School  Board"  -  Mr.  Laurier.  1923. 

Bill  reported.  1923. 

Bill  No.  44;   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Public  Health  Act** 

-  Mr.  Vivian.  1924. 

Bill  reported.  1924. 

Bill  NO.  64.   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Mining  Act"  - 

Mr.  Frost  1924. 

Bill  reported.  1924, 


Bill  No.  56:  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Dog  Tax  and  Livestock 

Protection  4ct'»  -  Mr.  Douoett.  1925. 

Bill  reported.  1927. 

Bill  ho.   57;  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Statute  Labour  Act"  - 

Mr.  Doucett.  1927, 

Bill  reported;  1927. 

Bill  No.  47;  "^  Act  to  amend  the  Workmen's  Compensation 

Act"  -  Mr.  Daley  1928. 

Bill  Reported.  1928. 

Bill  IMO.  58;  "An  Act  to  Confirm  Tax  Sales"  -Mr.  Dunbar  1929. 

Bill  reported.  1929 

Bill  NO.  59:  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Bees'  Act"  -  Mr. 

Bill  reported. 

Bill  73:  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Liquor  Autbiaity  Control 

Act"  -Mr.  Blackwell 
Bill  reported. 

Bill  No.  46:  An  Act  to  amend  the  Public  HosjitAls' 

Act"  -  Mr.  Vivian. 
Bill  (as  amended)  Reported. 

Resolution  from  His  Honour  the  Lieut.  Governor,  re  cer- 
tain Bills  requiring  the  expenditure  of  money" 

Bill  No.  74:  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Highway  Improvement 

Act"  -  Mr.  Doucett. 
Bil.  reported. 

Bill  Noo  76:  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Fire  Departments' 

Act"  -  Mr.  Blackwell 
Bill  report«d. 

Bill  No.  79:  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Public  Vehicles' 

Act"  -  Mr.  Doucett. 
Bill  reported  . 

Bill     %0'.  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Commercial  Vehicles" 

Act"  -  Mr.  Doucett. 
Bill  (as  amended)  reported. 

Bill  No.  82:  "AnAct  to  amend  the  Trustee"  Act"  - 

Mr.  Blackwell 
Bill  reported. 

The  House  resumes.' 

Reportiijg   certain  Bills  with  amendments   and    certain 
Bills  without  amendment" 















F  1 













N   G 









Toronto,   Cntardo. 
Wodneaday,   March  21, 

SPEAKER:      Hoaourabl*  William  j.    Stonrart,    C.   B.   E. 


R«sumiag  Adjourned  Dtbata  on   the   sub -amendment  to    the 
amendment   to  the  motion  for   the   coijsi deration  of  the  •  ■ 

Speech  of  the   Honourable  Lieut .-Governor  -  Mr.  Williams  1965. 

Re;    C.    C.    F.   viewpoint.  Cons.  1965. 

Re;    Comparison  of  Progressive/and 

Liberal  parties.  1969. 

Re:    East  York  Workers'   Ass'n.  1974. 

Re:    Lrder-in-council,   P.C.    1003  1981. 

Re:    Labour  Relations  Board  of 

Ontario.  1988. 

Re:    Minimum  wages.  •  1996. 

Re:    Civil  Service.  £001. 

Re:    Workmen's  compensation.  2008. 

Re:    workmen's  Compensation  Boards' 

case  histories.  2013. 

Mr.    F.    0.    ROBIKSCN    (PORT  ARTHUR): 

Re:    Natural  resources  of  northern 

Re:    Schools   li.   Northern  Ontario. 
ReL  Forests. 
Re:    School  of  Forestry. 

2047 . 



THE        LEGISLATIVE  AS  S  E  M  B  L  Y    » 

TWENTY  S  I   X  T  H  DAY. 


Toroiito,   Ontario. 
Thursday,    March  22,    1945, 

SPEAKER:      Honourable  William  J.    Stewart,    C.B.E. 


Final  Reporter  of  Standing  Comniittee  on  Miscellaneous 

Bills,  2061. 

Intrdiduction  of :  "The  Town  Planning  Act"  -  Mr.  Porter.  2062. 

First   Reading.  2062. 

Introduction  of  "An  Act  to  amend   the  Game  and  Fish- 
eries Act"   -  Mr.    Dunbar.  2063. 
First  Reading.  2063. 

Introduction  of:    "An  Act  to   amend  the  Provincial 

Parks'   Act"   -  Mr.   Thompson  2063. 

First   Reading.  2063. 

Intrd)duction  of  "An  Act   to  amend   the   Vital  Statis- 
tics   '    Act"   -  Mr.   Dunbar  2063. 
First   Reading.  2063. 

Introduction  of "An  Act  to   amend  the  Wartime   Housing 

Act,    1344"   -  Mr.      Dunbar.  2064. 

First  Reading.  2064. 

Introduction  of:    "An  Act  to   amend  the  Assessment  Act"   - 

Mro    Dunbar.  2064. 

First   Reading.  2064. 

Introduction  of    "An  Act   to  amend   the  Lociil  Improve- 
ment Act    "  -  Mr.    Dunbar.  2064. 
First   reading.                                                                       -  2065. 

Introducticof   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Ontario  Municipal 

Board  Act"   -  Mr.   Dunbar.  2065. 

First   reading.  2065. 


Introduction  of   :    "An  Act  to  amend   the  Municipal  Act"  - 
Mr.    Dunbar 
First   Reading. 

introduction  of  :    "An  Act   to   acaend   the  Long  Point  Park 
Act"   -  Mr.    Thompson. 
First  reading. 

Introduction  of;    "An  Act  to   anend  the   Industrial 
Farms'    Act"   -  Mr.    Dunbar. 
First  reading. 

Introduction  of   "An  Act  to  amend   the  Presque  Isle 
Park  Act"   -  Mr.    Thompson. 
First  reading. 

Introduction  of    "An  Act  to   provide  for  voting  for 
Benchers   of  Law  Society"   -  Mr.    Blackwell 
First  reading. 

Introduction  of:    "An  Act  to   amend  the  Money  Lenders' 
Act"   -  Mr,    Blackwell 
First  reading. 

Introduction  of:    "An  Act   to   amend  the  Coroner's  Act"   - 
Mr.   Blackwell 
First  readiiig. 

introduction  of  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Surrogate  Court 
Act"   -  Mr.    Blackwell, 
First  reading: 










of  48th  Annual  report  for  Loan   Corporations 
endind   December  31,    1944. 

of   66th  Anziual  report  of  Superintendent  of 
Insurance,    for  year  ended   December  31,    1944. 

Ann\ial  report  of  Superlntenddnt  of  Legal 
Offices,    for  year   ending  December   31,    1944. 

Annual    report  of  Secretary   aiid  Registrar  of 
Province  of  Ontario,    for  year   ending  December 
31,    1944. 

Annual  Report  of  Commissioner  of  Oi^tario. 
Provincial  Police,    for  year  ending  December 
31,    1944. 

Annual  report  of  Game  and  Fisheries  Department, 
for  year  ending  December  31,    1944. 

Bill  No.    3o 

An  Act  respecting  the   Vi*y   of  Welland  -  Mr.   Brown. 

Third   Reading. 

Bill  No,   6;    "An  Act  respecting  the  city  of  food- 
stock"   -  Mr.    Dent . 
Third  reading. 










Bill  Uo ,   8:    "An  Act  respecting  the   Synod  of   the   Ddkocese 

of  Niagara"   -  IkIt  .   Roberts  2072. 

Third  readiag.  2072. 

Bill  1^0.    10:    "AnAct  respecting  the  Evangelical  Luther- 
an  Seminary   of  Canada"   -  Mr.    Cook.  2072. 
Third  reading.  2072. 

Bill  No.    11:    "An  Act  respecting  the   city  of  St.    Thomas" 

Mr.    Hepburn    (Elgin)  2073. 

Third   reading.  2074. 

Bill  No.   5:  "An  Act  respecting  the   city  of  Peter- 
borough"  -  Mr.   Scott;  2073. 
Third  reading.  2073. 

Bill  Imo.    9:    "An  Act  respecting  the  city  of  Kings- 
ton" -  Mr.   Stewart    (Kingston)  2073. 
Third  reading.  2073. 
Bill  No.    12:"i8n  Act  respecting  the   city  of  Port 
Arthur"   -  Mr.   Robinson    (Port  Arthur    )  2073. 
Third  reading.  2073. 

Bill   NO.    4:    "j||n  Act   respecting  the  Royal  Ottawa 

Sanitorium"   -  Mr.  Laurier  2074. 

Third  reading.    '  2074. 

Bill  N6.    7: "An  Act  respecting  the   Peterborough  Civic 

Hospital"   -  Mr.   Scott  2074. 

Tnir^  reading.  2074. 

Bill  NO.   13:"Ari  Act  respecting  the  city  of  Ottawa 

Separate  Sdhool  Board"   -  Mr.   Laurier.  2|>74. 

Third  reading.  ,2074. 

Bill  Wo.    44:    "AnAct   to  amend  the  Public  Health  Act" 

Mr.  Vivian  2075. 

Third  reading,  2075. 

Bill   NO.    56: "An  Act   to  amend   the   Dog  Tax  and  Live- 
stock Protection  Act"   -  Mr.    Doucett.  2075. 
Third  reading.  2075. 

Bill  NO.    64;    "AnAct   to   amend   the   Mining  Act"   9  Mr. 

Frost.  2075. 

Third  reading.  2075. 

Bill  No.    57:"i([^  Act   to   amend   the  Statute   Labour 

Act"    -  fix,    Doucett.  2075. 

Third  reading.  2075, 

Bill  No.   47: "An  Act  to  amend  the  Workmen's  Com- 
pensation Act"   -  MTc   Daley.  2076. 
Third  reading.                                           .  2076. 

Bill  No.    58:  "iflp  Act   to   Confirm  Tax  Sales"   -  Mr.   Dunbar,    2076. 

Third  reading.  2076. 

Bill  No.    59:    "An  Act   to    amend   the   Bees'    Act"    -  Mr. 

Doucett.  2076. 

Third  reading.  2076, 


Bill  No.  75:  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Liquor  Authority  control 

Act,  1944"  -  Mr.  Blackwell  2076. 

Third  reading.  2076. 

Bill  No.  46; "An  Act  to  amend  the  Public  Hospitals' 

Act"  -  Mr.  Vivian.  2077. 

Third  reading.  2077. 

Bill   No,    74:"An  Act   to  amend  the   Higiiways'    Improve- 
ment Act"   -  Mr.   Douce tt.  2077. 
Third  reading.                                                                            •  2077. 

Bill  No.    76;    "AnAct   to  amend  the  Fire  Depsrtments' 

Act"   -  Mr.   Blackwell  2077. 

Third  reading.  2077. 

Bill  NO.   79:    "An  Act  to  amend  the  Public  Vehicles 

Act"   -  Mr.   Doucett.  2078. 

Third  reading.  2078. 

Bill  No.    80:    ,?An  Act   to  amend  the   Commercial  Ve- 
hicles'  Act"   -  Mr.    Doucett.  •  2078. 
Third  read  ixig.  2078. 

Bill  No,   82:    "An  Act  to  amend  the  Trustee  Act"  -  Mr. 

Blackwell                                        "                -  2078. 

Third  reading.  2078. 


An  Act  respecting  the 
An  Act  respecting  the 
An  Act  respecting  the 

An  Act  respecting  the 
An  Act  respecting  the 
An  Act  respecting  the 
IJivic  Hospttal 

An  Act  respecting  the   Incorporated  Synod  of  the 
Diocese  of  Niagara, 
An  Act  respecting   the 

An  Act  respecting  the  Evangelical  Lutheran 
Seminary  of  Canada. 
An  Act  respecting  the  city 
An  Act  respecting  the  city 
An  Act  respecting  the  city 
An  Act  respecting  the  city 

amend  the   Counties  Reforestation  Act. 

amdnthe    Crown  Timber  Act. 

amend   the   Public  Works'    Act. 

repeal   the   Political   Contributions  Act. 

amend  the  Judicature  Act. 
The   Securities  Act,    1945. 

An  Act  respecting  Prospecting  Syndicates  having 
a   capital   iot    exceeding  |35,000.00o 
An  Act   to   amend   the   Public  Health  Act. 
An  Act  to  a  mend  the  Public  Hospitals  Act. 
An  Act    to  amend  the  Workmen's  Compensation  Act. 
An  Act   to  amend  the   Dog  Tax  and  Livestock  Pro- 
tection Act. 

Town  of  Barrie. 
City  of  welland. 
Royal  Ottawa  Sanitor- 

City  ofPeterborough, 
city  of  Woodstock. 
city  of  Peterborough 

Incorporated  Synod  of 

City  of  Kingston. 

of  St.   Thomas, 
of  St .    Thomas . 
of  Port  Arthur, 
of  Ottawa  Separate 



An  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 











Aa  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 


Act,  1944. 

An  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 


An  Act 


amend  the  Statute  Labour  Act. 

confirm  Tax  Sales. 

amend  the  Beea'  Act. 

amend   the  Public   Trustee  Act. 

amend  the  Mining  Act. 

amend   the   Evidence  Act. 

amend   the  Liquor  Authority  control 

amend   the  Highway   Improvement  Act. 
amend   the   Fire   Departments'   Act. 
amend    the   Public  Vehicles  Act. 
amend  t/ie   Comms  rcial  Vehicles  Act. 
amend  the    Trustees'   Act. 



Resuming  Adjourned  Debate  on   the   sub-amendment   to   the 
amendment,    to   themotion  for   the   consideration  of  the 
Speech  of  the  Honourable   the  Lieut. -Governor  -  Mr. 
MURRAY:  Re;    Complimentary  remarks.  2081. 

Re:    Police   enforcement  of  laws.  2085. 

R«:    t»hds   and  forests.  2095. 

Re:    Women's   Compensation.  2108. 

MRS.   R.   M.    LUCKOCK: 

RSB:    Education. 

,Re.:    Children's  welfare. 

Re:    Women's  pla  ce   in  world. 




Tourist   industry. 
Industrial  enterprises. 
Planning  aud  Development 





Duty  of  debating. 
Lengthy  speeches, 
French  Canadians. 





TWENTY        SIXTH        DAY. 


Toronto,    Ontario, 
Thursday,   March   22,    1945. 

SPEAKER:      Honourable  William  j.    Stewart,    C.   B.    E, 


Resuming  Adjourned  debate  on  the  sub-amendment  to  the  amend- 
ment to  themotion  for  the  consideration  of  the  Speech  of  the 
Honourable    the   Lieut. -Governor  2143. 

MR.    A.    BELAKGER   ( contiijuing) 


Re '.French  Canadians. 

Re:    Electric   Power   in   East  Ontario, 

Re:    Treatment   of  French   Canadians. 

Re:    School  Grants. 

Re:    Unity  between   races. 

Re:  Samples  of  Ore  in  Parliament 


Re:  Mining  industry 

Re:  Compensation  Board. 

Re:  Minimum  Wages. 

Re:  new  Canadians. 

Re:  Sulphur  fumes, 

Ra:  Portraits, 

Ra:  Prime  MiiAster's  radio  address, 

August    9,    1944. 

Re:  Amendment  and  sub-amendment. 

Re:  Immigration. 

R'«s  Religious   teaching  ia  Schools, 

MR.   EDRWAD  B.    JOLLIFFE    (Leader  of  Opposition). 

Re:    Position  of  CCF  in  regard  to 

sub -amen  dmen  t . 
Re:    CCF  Leader's   own   views. 








HON.    asCRGE  A.    DRESr    vPrime  iiioister).  2209. 

H«:    Sub-aiuendment.  2211. 
R«:    Immigration.  2214. 
Re:    Preferential  Treatment   for  mem- 
bers  of  Armed  Services.  2217. 
Re:    Religious   education   in  Schools^  2220. 

The  House   divided  on   the   sub-amendment   (Motion  lost)  2229. 

The   House    divided  on    the  amendment,    (Motion   carried^).  2230. 

Motion   for  House   to  adjourn   until  Tuesday,    March 

27,    1945   -  Mr.    Jolliffe.  2232. 

Motion  a;^reed   to.  2232. 



THE        LEGIi3'L.iTIVE        ASSEMBLY 

SPEAKER;        Honourable  William  J.    Stewart,    O.B.E. 

INDEX       OF        BILLS 

BILL  NO.    1 

TI13-E:  An.   ACt  respecting  The  Music  Teachers  Association 

-  Mr.  Martin 

1st  Heading  3/7/45  Page  8l£ 

2nd  Heading         i.  i. 

Coumit  tee           -  ^- 

3rd  Heading         -  ^ 

BILL  NO.  2 

TITLE:  im   Act  Respecting  the  Town  of  Barrie  -  Mr.  Johnston 

Ist  Reading 


Page  394 

2nd  Reading 






3rd  Reading 



Royal  itssent 



BILL  NO,  3 

TITLE:   An  Act  jidfpecting  the  City  of  Welland  -  Mr.  Brown 

1st  Reading  2/27/45  Page  394 

2nd  Reading  3/19/45  1703 

ConMittee  3/21/45  1916 

3rd  Reading  3/22/45  2072 o 

.  ;      Royal  Assent  3/22/45  2079  ' 


BILL  NO,  4 

TITLE:   An  Act  Hespectlng  the  Royal  Ottawa  Sanitorium  -  }Jlr»   Laurier 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
^omnii  tteji 
3rd  Reading 
Royal' Assent 






Page  743 


BILL  NO^  5 


1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 
Royal  Assent 

;ing  the  City 



-  Mr. 



Page  749 









BILL  NO,  6 


TITLE:  An  Act  Respecting  the  City  of  Woodstock  -  Mr,  Dent 

1st  fieading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 
f^oyal  Assent 


Page  394 


BILL  NO.  7 

TITLE:   An.  Aat  Respecting  the  Peterborough  GiviO  Hospital  - 

-  Mr.  Scott 

Ist  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
Commit  tee 
3rd  Rdading 
Royal  Assent 






Page  744 




BII,L  NO.  8 


TITLE:  An  Act  Respecting  tiie  Synod  of  the  Diocese  of  Niagara 

Mr.  Roberts 

1st  Reading  . 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 
^yal  Assent 


PagB  394 






20  72 




BILL  NO.  9 

TITLE:   An  ^ct  Respecting  the  City  of  Kingston  -  Mr.  Stewart 


1st   Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Readijag 
Royal  A^apnt 


Page  745 









BILL  NO,    10 

TITLE:  An  Act  Respecting  the  Evangelical  Lutheran  Seminary 
of  Canada  -  Mr.  Cook 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 
Royal  Assent 


Page  394 

BILL  NO.  11 

TITLE:   An  Act  respecting  the  City  of  St. Thomas  -  Mr.  Hepburn 


1st  Reaaing 
2nd  Reading 
•3rd  Reading 
Royal  Assent 


Page  393 


BILL  NO.  12 

TITLE:  An  Ac^  respecting  the  City  of  Port  Arthur  - 

Mr.  F.O.  «oi>lnson  (Port  Arthur) 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd-  Reading 
fioyal  Assent 






Page  744 

BILL  NO.  13 

TITLE:  An  Act  respecting  the  City  of  Ottawa  Separate  School 
Board  -  -  Mr.  Laurier 

J.3t  Reading 
2nd  Beading 
3rd  lieading 
floral  Assent 


Page  394 

BILL  NO.  14 

TITLE:  An  Act  respecting  the  City  of  London  -  Mr.  Patrick 

1st  Heading  3/13/45  Pagfe  1066 

2nd  Heading         -  ,  - 

Conmittee  -  - 

3rd  Heading 

BILL  NO.  15 

TITLE;   An  Act  respecting  Sacred  Heart  College  of  Sudbury 

Mr.  cmrttn.- 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 


Page  526 


BILL  NO,  16 

TITLE:   An  ^ct  respecting  the  Township  of  Stamford  -  Mr. Overall 

1st  Reading       3/13/45        Page  1066 

2nd  Heading 


3rd  Heading         - 

BILL  N0»  17 

TITLE:   An  itct  to  Incorporate  the  Kingston  Club  -  Mr.  Mitchell 

1st  Reading       2/28/45        Page  526 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 

BILL  NO.  18 

TITLE:   An  Act  respecting  the  Township  of  Crowland 

1st  Reading       3/6/45         Page  743 
2nd  Reading        - 
3rd  Reading 

Mr.   Brown 

BILL  NO.    19 

TITLE:      An  Act   to  authorize    the   Corporation  of  the   City  of 

Toro.nto   to  Plan  and  Zone   the  Municipality  -  Mr.    Roberts 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Heading 


Page  813 



BILL  NO.  20 


An  ^iCt  respecting  the  City  of  Toronto  -  Mr-.  Roberts 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 


Page  814 

■BILL  NO.  21 

TITLE:   An  ACt  respecting  the  Village  of  Swansea  -  Mr.  Millard 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 


Page  746 

BILL  NO.  22 

TITLE:  An  Act  respecting  the  Township  of  Teck  -  Mr.  Grummett 

1st  Reading       3/22/45         P*gO  1896 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 

BILL  NO.  23 

TITLE:  An  Act  respecting  the  Canadian  Legion  of  the  British 
Empire  Jervice  League,  Branch  51       -  Mr.  Overall 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 


Page  ^43 

rBILL-NQ.  24 

ti'ITLE:   An  Act  respecting  the  Town  of  Paris   -  Mr.  Nixon 

1st  Reading       3/22/45       Page  1896. 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 


BILL  NO.  2^ 

TITLE:   An  Act  .to  provide  for  the  Voting  of  Active  Service 

Voters  at  a  General  Election  to  the  Assembly  -Mr.BJa  ckwell 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Heaaing 
Srd  Heading 
Royal  ^vssent 


Page  23 









BILL  NO.  26 

TITLE:   An  Act  to  Amend  the  Mental  Hospitals  Act  -  Mr.  Vivian 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Heading 
Royal  Assent 


Page  38 

BILL  NO.  27 

TITLE:   An  Act  to  Araena  the  Children's  Protection  Act  -  Mr.  Vivian 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 
Royal  Assent 


Page  39 

BILL  NO.  28 

TITLE:   An  Act  to  Amend  the  Territorial  Division  Act  -  Mr.  Thompson 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Heading 
Royal  Assent 

2/19/4  5 
2/27/4  5 

Page  39 


BILL  NO.  29 

TITLE:  Afiii^^ct  to  Amend  the  Surveys  Act  -    Mr.  Thompson 


1st  Beading 
2nd  Beading 
Z'rd^  Reading 
jRoyal  Assent 


Page  39 

BILL  NO,  30 

TITLE:     >The  Voters'    List  Act   1945 

Mr.   Blsickwell 

1st  Beading 


page  76 

2nd  Beading 





'    560 

3rd.  Beading 



BILL  NO.  31 

Tl^LE:   The  Election  ACt:  19  45 

1st  Beading 
2nd  Beading 

3rd'  Beading 

(  3/2/45 
t  3/12/45 

<.  / 

Mr*  B]ackwell ".?' 

Page  76 






■■■«(  • 

'  BILL  NO,  32 

TITLE:  An  Act  to  Amend  the  Counties'  Beforestation  Act  - 

Mr.  Thompson 


1st  Beading 
2nd  Beading 
3J5d  Beading 
Boyal  Assent 

2/26/4  5 

Page  23  6 






BILL  NO,    25 

TITLE:      An  ACt  to  Amend   the    Crown  Timber  Act   -     Mr.    Thqjapson 

Ist  i<eading 
■^d  Heading 
3rd  Heading 
Royal  Assent 


page  33  6 

2/26/4  5 








BILL  NO.    34 

TITLE:  An  Act  respecting  Forest  Engineers  -  Mr.  Thompson 

1st  Heading 


Page  137,  ' 

2nd  Heading 




(  3/2/45 


(  3/19/45 


3rd  Heading 



BILL  NO.   35 

TITLE:      An  Act   to  jitaend  the   ijaiisages   by  Fumes  Arbitration  Act 

Ml".   Frost 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 


Page  170 

BILL  NO.  36 

TITL|I:  An  ACt  to  Amend  the  Public  Works  Act  -  Mr.  Doucett 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 
Royal  assent 






Page  170 






f.  •■' 

BILL  NOp    37 

TITLE;     An  xict   to  I^epeal   the  Political  Contributions  Act 

-  Mr.    Bla 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 
floyal  Assent 






■  *.' 


iblcwel  1 

Page   170 





BILL  NO.   38 

TITLg;      An  Act   to  A'lasnd  the  Judicature  Act   -     My.   Blackwell 

Ist  Heading 

2nd  Heading  ' ' 
-5rd.  Heading 
iioyal  Assent 


Page  171 

■  3/1/45 




■  ;^/l9/45 

.!>.-l,      1632 



'^   BILJ  NO.  39 

TITLE:'    An  Aot  to  iunend  the  Municipal  Act  - 

1st  Heading  2/23/45      "  Page  231 
2nd  Heading         -        ,. 
Committee  • 

3rd  Heading 

Mr. Bennett 

BILL  NO.  40 

TITLE;   An  Act  to  Amend  the  Public  Utilities  Act  -  Mr.  Connor 

Ast  Reading       2/23/45        Page  231 

2nd  Reading 


3rd  Heading-  - 


BILL  NO.  41 

TITLE:   The  Securities  .tct  1945  - 

Mr .Blackwell 

Isl:  lieuding      .2/26/45  Page  298 
Debate  on  Motion  for  2n(i  Heading  - 

. 3/5/45  688 

2nd  Reading       3/7/45  832 

Committee       (3/16/45  1551 

("5/19/45  157E 
3rd  Heading       3/21/45 

Hoyal  Assent      3/22/45  2079 

BILL  NO.  42 

TITLE:     An  Act  respecting  Prospecting  Syndicates  Having  a 
Capital  not  exceeding  |35, 000.00  -     Mr.   Blackwell 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 
Hoyal  Assent 


Page  303 


BILL  NO,  43 

TITLE:  nn  .i.ct  to  .timend  the  Municipal  Act  -  Mr.  Belanger 

Idt  Heading       2/27/4  5  Page  395 

2nd  Heading        -  -        : 

Committee          -  - 

3rd  Heading    ^    - 

BILL  NO.  44 

TJlTLE:  ^n  Act  to  Amend  the  Public  Health  Act  -  Mr.  Vivian 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading 

3rd  Heading 
Hoyal  iissent 

t  3/19/45 
(■  3/21/45 

Page  550 


BILL  NO I  45 

TITLE:   An  ^ct  respectiing  Housing  Standards  -  Mr.  Lennison, 

Page  551 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heauilig 
3rd  Heading 


BILL  NO. %6 

TITLE;  An  Act  to  Amend  the  Public  Hospitals  Act  -  Mr,  Vivian 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 
Hoyal  iissent 






BILIiJfQ.  47 

Page  630 

-':  I- 

TITLE:   An  Act  to  Amena  the  Workmen's  Compensation  ACt  -  Mr.  Daley 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Heading 
Royal  iissent 


Page  631 

BILL  NO.  48 

TITUEf:/  An  ACt  to  Amend  the   tiunicipal  Health  Services  Act   1944 

-  Mr.   Dennison 

1st  Heading" 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading' 


Page  681 



BILL  NO.  49 

TITLE:  An  «.ct  to  iuabnd  the  Marriage  Act  -  Mr.  Strange 

1st  Heuciing 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 


Page  681 

— ■,*; 

BILL  NO.  50 

TITLE:   An  ACt  to  amend  the  Hours  of  Work  and  Vacations  with 
Pay  1944  -  Mr.  vailiams 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Heading 


Page  742 

BILL  NO.  51 

TITLE:   An  Act  to  Amend  the > Venereal  Diseases  Prevent  ion  Act  194  2 

-  Mr.  Strange. 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heaaing 
3rd  Heading 


Page  743 

BILL  NO.  52 

TITLE:  An  ACt  to  Amend  the  Public  Health  Act  -  Mr.  Dennfson 

Ibt  Heading       3/6/45        Page  744 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 


BILL  NO.  53 

TITLE:   xJi  ACt  to  -amend  the  Public  Health  Act  -  Mr.  Hobinson 

(Port  Arthur) 

1st  Heading       3/6/45        Page  745 
2nd  Heauing 
3rd  Heading 

BILL  NO.  54 

TITLE:  An   ACt  to  Authorize  the  Appointment  of  an   Ontario  Fuel 
Comaission  -  Mr.  Dennison 

1st  Heading       3/7/4.5         Page  SIS 
2nd  Heaaing        - 
Gomiui  ttee 
3rd  Heading 

BILL  NO.  55 

TITLE:   An  ACt  to  Amend  the  Municipal  Act  -  Mr.  Anderson 

1st  Heading       3/7/45         Page  813 
2nd  Heading     -    -  - 

3rd  Heading 

BILL  NO,  56 

TITLE:      An  Act   to  Amend  the   Dog  Tax  and  Live   Stock  Protection  Act 

-  Mr.  iJoucett 

Ist  Heading 


Page  813 

2nd  Heading 






3rd  Heading 



Royal  Assent 




BILL  NOo  57 

TITLE:   >4i^  Act  to  ^mend  the  statute  Labouk*.  Act  -  Mr.  Doucett 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Heaaing ' 
Royal  ^asent 






Page  814 

BILL  NO.  58 

TITLE:   ^n  Act  to  Confirm. Tax  Sales  - 

Mr.  Dunbar 

Is-t  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
Coinmi  ttee 
3rd  Beading 
fioyal  ^ssent 

3/19/4  5 

Page  814 


BILL  NO.  59 

TITLE:   An  •■iCt  to  Jtmend  the  Bees  Act  - 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading. 
Goiuai  ttee 
3rd  Reading 
4pyal  Assent 






Mr.  Doucett 

Page  815 

BILL  NO,  60 

TITLiU'  An  ^Act  to  Amend  the  Optometry  Act  -   Mr.  Hepburn 

,1st  Reading  3/8/45         Page  879 
2nd  Reading        - 
CoMQittee  - 

3rd  Reading        - 


BILL  NO.  61 

TrrLE:  An  Act  to  Enable  Municipalities  to  Establish  Community 
planning  and  Housing  .Author! tes  -     Mr.  Warren 

'1st  Heading 
2nd  Reading 

>3r.d  Reading 


Page  880 


BILL  NO.^62 

TITLE:     "An  Act  to  Amend  the   Professional  Engineers  Act  -  Mr.   Scott 

.*vlst  Reading 
2n(i  Reading 
3rd  Reading 


Page  880 

BILL  NO*  63 

TITLEi'v  iin  ^ct   to  Aiaend' the  Public  Trustees'   Act   -  Mr.   Blackwell 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading ' 
3rd  Reading 
Royal  Assent 






page  881 
10/?  2 

.  ;  1902 

BILL  NO.  64 

TITLE:   An  Act  to  Amend  the  Mining  Act  - 

Mr.  Frost 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 
Royal  ^i.saent 


page  882 
.-     11134 



BILL  NO.    65 

TITLE:      An  Act   to  ilmend   the  Evidence  Act   -       Mr.    Blackweli 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Redding 
'3rd  Reading 
Royal  Assent 


Page  882 









BILL  NO.  66 

TITLE:  An  Act  to  Amend  the  Nurses  Hegistretion  Act  -  Mr.  Vivian 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 


Page  1003 

BILL  NO.  67 

TITLE:    'An  -act   totP:^ovide  Relief  for  Persons  Who  Have  Suffered 
'     ■Substantial:  impairment   of  Income,    Owing   to   Illness,  ; 
or  Unemploji^  nt  or  any  other  Cause  Beyond  Their  Control 
in  Respect  'to  Their  Homes  -  Mr.   Mrren 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 


^age  1004 

BILL  NO.  68 

TITLE:   iin  Act  to  .tuaend  the  Venereal  Diseases  Prevention  ACtl942 

Mr.  Vivian 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 


Page  1004 


BILL  NO.  69 

TITLE:   An  Act  to  Amend  the  Hours  of  Work  and  Vacation  withPay 
ACt  1944  -   Mr.  Daley 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Heading 
GoMiii  ttee 
3rd  Heading 


Page  1005 

BILL  NO,  70 

TITLE:  -rt-n  Act  to  Amend  the  Medical  Act  -  Mr.  Vivian 

1st  Heading 
End  Heading 
3rd  Heading 


Page  1005 

BILL  NO.  71 

TITLE:  An  Act  to  Provide  Financial  Protection  for  Persons 
who  have  Suffered  Su|^tantial  Impairment  of  Income 
owing  to  illness,  Unemployment  or  other  caases  beyond 
their  Gontrolo  -  Mr.  Warren 

let  Heading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 


Page  1005 

BILL  NO.  72 

TITLE:  An  Act  to  Amend  the  Minimum  Wage  Act  -  Mr.  Daley 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Reading 


Page  1006 


BILL  NO,  73 

TITLE:   An  Act  to  Amend  the  Liquor  Authority  Control  Act  194  4 

-  Mr.  Blackwell 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 
Hoyal  Assent 


Page  1065 









BILL  NOo  74 

TITLE;   An  Act  to  Amend  the  Highway  Improvement  Act  -  Mr.  Doucett 

1st  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 
Hoyal  Assent 


Page  1066 

BILL  NOo  75 

TITLE:    ^i^ar  Beet  dujjsidy  Act   1945  - 

Ist  Reading 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Reading 


Page  1191 

Mtw  Doucett 

BILL  NO,  76 

TITLE:   An  ACt  to  Amend  the  Fire  Department's  Act  -  Mr.  BlackweLl 

1st  Reading 


Page  1192 

2nd  Reading 






3rd  Reading 



Royal  Assent 




BILL  NO.  77 

TITLE:  Ap  Act  to  Amend  the  Forest  Fires'  Prevention  n-ot  - 

Mr.  Thompson 

1st  Readihg 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Reading 


Page  IS  61 

BILL  NO,  78 

TITLE:   An  Act  to  Amend  the  Factory,  Shop  and  Office  Building 
Act  -  Mr. «Daley 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 


page  1362 

BILL  NO.  7  9 

TITLE:  An  ACt  to  Amerni  the  Public  Vehicles  Act  -  Mr.  Doucett 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 
Royal  Assent 


Page  1362 

BILL  NOp  80 


An  ACt  to 



Vehicles  ACt  - 



1st  Heading 


Page  33  62 

2nd  Heading 






3rd  Heading 



Royal  Assent 




BILL  NO.  81 

TITLE:  An  Act  to  provide  for  the  EstablisiauEnt  of  Co4;^rvation 
Authorities  for  the  purpose  of  the  Conservation, 
Hester ution  and  Development  of  Natural  Hesoui-ces, 
other  than  gas,  oil,  coal  and  minerals,  and  for  the 
Prevention  of  Floods  and  Water  Pollution.  -  Mr.  Porter 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 


Page  1511 

BILL  NOo  82 

TITLE:   An  Act  to  iuoend  the  Trustee  Act  - 

Mr.  BJackwell 

Ist  Reading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 
Royal  Assent 


Page  1512 

BILL  NO,  83 

TITLE:   An  ACt  to  Amend  the  Highway  Traffic  Act  -  Mr.  Doucett 

1st  Heading       3/16/45        Page  1512 

2nd  Heading 

CoBimittee  - 

3rd  Heading 

BILL  NO,   84 

TITLE:      An  Act  to  Provide  for  An  Annual  Grant   to   the  University 
of  Toronto  School  of  Niwstng  -  Mr.   Vivian 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heauing. 
3rd  Heading 


Page   1568 


BILL  NO.   85 

TITLE:     An  Act  to  Amend   the  Sandwich-WincLsor-Amherstburg 
Bailway  ACt  -  Mr.    Bennett 

1st  Heading  3/19/45  Page  1558 

2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 

■BILtUOc    86 

TITLE:     An  ^ct  to  ^vmend  the  Municipal  Act  -  Mr.  Hobinson 

(Port  Arthur) 

1st  Heading       3/19/45        Page  1569 
2nd  Heading,         -  - 

3rd  Heading 

BILL  NO.  87 

TITLE:      An  iict   to  iuaend  the   Insurance  Act   ~       Mr.    Blackwell 

1st  Heading  3/19/4  5                  Page   15  69 
2nd  Heading 

Committee  -           ' 

3rd  Heading  -                                         -  , 

£ILL  NO.   88 

TITLE:     ^^n  Act   to  Amend   the  Land  Survq^ors'   Act  -     Mr,    Thompson 

1st  Heading       3/19/45        Pagel570 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 


BILL  NO.  89. 

TITLE:   "Ti^e  Mortgagors'  and  Purchasers'  Relief  Act, 
1945  -  Mr.  Blackwell. 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading. 


Page  1570. 


BILL  NO.  90. 

fThe  Cheese  and  Hog  Subsidy  Act,  1945'' 
Mr.  Doucett. 

1st  Beading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Pag0  1570. 

BILL  NO.  91. 

TITLE:   "An  Act  respecting  Marine  Insurance"  -  Mr. 

1st  Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  157d. 

BILL  NO.  92. 

TITLE:   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Municipal  Act" 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 



Page  1730. 



BILL  NO.  95 « 

"An  Act  to  amend  the  Minimum  Wage  Act"  -  Mr. 

1st  Reading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  1730 • 

Bill  No.  94. 

TITLE:   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Public  Schools'  Act". 
Mr.  Grummett. 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading 


Page  1730. 

BILL  NO.  95. 

TITLE;   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Companies'  Act"  -  Mr. 
Blaclcwell.     '^ 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  1731. 

BILL  NO.  96. 

TITLE:   "An  ACt  to  amend  the  Separate  Schools  '  Act" 
Mr.  Grummett. 

1st  Heading 
2nd  Heading, 
3rd  Heading, 


Page  1731, 


BILL  NO.    97. 

TITLE:     An  Act   to  amend  the  Loan  and -Trust   Corporations* 
Act"   -  Mr.    Blackwell. 

Ist   Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  1732. 

BILL  HO.    98. 

TITLE:      "An  Act  to  amend  the  Mining  Tax  Act"  -  Mr, 

1st  Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
Comml 1 1  ee 
3rd  Hefiuding. 


Page   1732. 

BILL  NO.    99. 

TITLE:      "And  Act  to  amend  the  Labour  fielatlons'  Act"  - 
Mr.    Williams. 

1st  Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  1895, 

BILL  NO,      100. 

TITLE:      "An  Act  respecting  the  purchase  of  cattle  with 
horns"  -  Mr.   Doucett. 

1st  Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  1895. 

«    XCIII. 


BILL  NO.    101. 

"An  Act   to  amend  the  Workmen's  Compensation 
Act*   -  Mr.    Williams, 

1st  Reading. 
2nd  Reading 
3rd  Bending. 


Page  1896. 

BILL  NO.      102. 

TITLE:      ""TJae  Town-Planning  Act"  -  Mr.   Porter, 

1st  Reading  3-22-45  Page  2062, 
2nd  Reading. 

Committee  -  - 

3rd  Reading.  -  • 


BILL  NO.  105. 

"An  Act  to  amend  the  Game  and  Fisheries'  Act"  - 
Mr.  Dunbar. 

1st  Reading. 
2nd  Reading, 
3rd  Reading. 


Page  2063, 

BILL  NO.   104. 

■■■I ■'■  ■    ■■■■■■■»■■'  ■■    ■     I  ■    ■ 

TITLE:      "An  Act   to   amend  the  Provta&ial  Parks'   Arrtr*  — 
Mr.   Thompson. 

1st   Reaaing.   - 
2ad   Reading. 
3rd  Reading. 

3^  ^2-45, 

Page   2063 < 


BILL  NO.  10^ I 

TITIE:   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Vital  Statistics*  Act"  - 
Kt,   Dunbar, 

1st  Heading  3-22^45.         Page  2063, 
2nd  Heading  - 

Committee  - 

3rd  Reading. 

BILL  NO,   IfH&'f 


TfllTLE:    "An  Act  to  aiaend  the   Wartime  Housing  Act" 
^ir.   Dunbar, 

1st  Heading;  3-»22-45  -  Page  2064. 

2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 

BJ^JL  NO,  lj)7 

TITLE:   "An  Act  to  amend  thp  Assessment  Act"  -  Mr. 
Dunbar . 

1st  Heading;  3-t22-45  Page  2064. 

2nd  Heading,  ' - 

Committee  -.                 - 

3rd  Heading.  <•*                                           • 

BI^L  NO.  Ig8. 

TITLE:  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Local  Improvement  Act* 
Mr.  Dunbar. 

1st  Heading        3-'22-45         Page  2064. 

2nd  Heading 

Committee  «> 

3rd  l^eading.         i- 

BILL  NO.  1^9 y 

TITLE:   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Ontario  Municipal  Board 
Act"  -  Mr.  Dujiba^. 

1st  Heading        3-^22-45         Page  2065. 

Committee  •  • 

;3rd  Heading. 


BILL  NO.    110. 

TITLE:      "An  Act   to  amend   the   Municipal  Act" 

1st  Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 



Pag-e  2065. 


ILL  KO.  111. 

TITIE:   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Longue  Pointe  Park  Act"  - 

Mr.  Thompsstn. 

1st   Reading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  2066. 

BILL  NO.    112. 

TITLS:      "An  Act  to  amend  the   Industrial  Farms'  Act"  - 
Mr.   Dunt&r. 

1st  Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Pag;e   2066. 

BILL  NO.    113. 

TITLE:      "An  Act  to  amend  the   Presque  Park's  Act"  - 

Mr.   Thompson. 

let   Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page   20.6 7» 



BILL  NO.  114. 

"An  Act  to  provide  for  voting  for  the  Benchers 
of  the  Law  Society**-  -  Mr,  Blackwell. 

1st  Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  20^7. 

BILL  NO.  115, 

TITLE:   '*An  Act  to  amend  the  Money  Lenders'  Act"  - 
Mr.  Blackwell. 

1st  Heading. 
2nd  Reading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  2067, 

BILL  NO.  116. 

TITLE:   "An  ACt  to  amend  the  Coroners'  Act"  -  Mr. 

1st  Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  2069. 

BILL  NO.  117. 

TITLE:   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Surrogate  Courts'  Act"  - 
Mr.  Blackwell. 

1st  Heading. 
2nd  Heading. 
3rd  Heading. 


Page  2070. 

-  0  - 


of  the 

Second  Session  of  the  Twenty-first  Legislatxire  of  the 

Province  of  Ontario <> 

Honourable  George  A.  Drew,  K.  C<»> 

Prime  Minister, 

Honourable  William  J„  Stewart,  C.B.Eo, 


Major  Alex  Lewis,  Clerfc* 


Toronto,  Ontario, 

Thursday,  February  15,  1945. 

The  House  met  at  3  o'clocko 

The  Honourable  the  Lieutenant  Governor  then  entered 
the  House,  and  took  his  seat  upon  the  Throne. 

The  Honourable  the  Lieutenant  Governor  was  then 
pleased  to  open  the  Session  with  the  following  gracious 

Mr.  Speaker  and  Members  of  the  Legislative  Assembly: 

As  you  meet  at  the  opening  of  the  Second  Session  of 
the  Twenty-first  Legialatxire,  I  wish  to  extend  my  best 
wishes  as  you  resume  your  legislative  duties o 

At  the  outset  I  would  like  to  take  the  opportunity 
to  join  with  you  In  paying  respect  to  the  memory  of  a 
former  Speaker,  the  Honourable  W.  D.  Black,  who  has  died 
since  we  last  met.  For  nearly  half  a  centuiry,  Mr*  Black 

-  2  -  2-15-45. 

was  prominent  in  the  public  life  of  Ontario  and  won  the 
affection  and  esteem  of  all  who  knew  him.  He  sat  con- 
tinuously as  a  member  of  this  Legislature  from  1911  until 
1943,  when  advancing  years  led  to  his  retirement o  I  be- 
lieve that  as  we  pay  respect  to  his  memory  we  may  well 
recall  such  examples  of  long  public  service^ 

Since  you  were  last  in  Session,  the  United  Nations 
have  gone  forward  from  victory  to  victory,  and  statements 
issuing  from  the  meeting  of  the  three  leaders  of  our  com- 
bined effort  do  give  reason  for  confidence  that  the  war  in 
Europe  is  rapidly  reaching  its  climax.  But  there  will 
still  be  hard  and  costly  fighting,  and  our  first  thought 
must  be  with  those  who  bear  the  brunt  of  that  mighty 
struggle  and  with  their  loved  ones  at  home  who  wait  in 
anxiety  for  their  safe  return. 

Education  lays  the  foundation  for  the  strength  of 
Ontario  and  of  every  other  part  of  Canada.  Many  important 
changes  have  been  made  in  our  educational  system.  The 
moat  important  single  step  which  has  been  taken  is  the 
assumption  by  the  Government  of  fifty  per  cent,  of  the 
total  cost  of  elementary  and  secondary  education  through- 
out the  province.  This  will  make  it  possible  to  equalize 
educational  opportunity  as  never  before,  and  it  will  en- 
able the  Department  of  Education  to  accelerate  the  improve- 
ment of  many  of  our  less  satisfactory  schools.  It  will 
greatly  relieve  the  burden  of  taxation  on  real  estate  fop 
school  purposes,  and  in  this  way  have  the  effect  of  en- 
couraging the  building  and  improvement  of  homes,  where  all 
education  begins. 

Much  has  been  done  already  to  improve  the  possibili- 
ties of  good  rural  education.  Approximately  one-quarter 

-  3  - 

of  the  old  school  sections  have  been  merged  in  Township 
School  Areas.  This  brings  to  children  in  the  rural 
schools  better  teachers,  standard  courses  of  instruction, 
and  wider  opportunities  to  continue  their  education  through 
the  secondary  school  grades.  Special  grants  have  been 
offered  to  rural  high  schools  which  adopt  the  regular 
school  courses  to  local  needs  by  the  introduction  of  prac- 
tical agriculture,  shop  work  and  home  economics:   open  the 
school  for  use  as  a  commiinity  centre,  and  provide  hot 
lunches  for  pupils  who  come  from  a  distance-   Thirty  schools 
have  already  iindertaken  this  special  programme,  and  many 
others  have  indicated  their  intention  of  following  the  same 
course  as  soon  as  staff  and  equipment  are  available.  More 
rxiral  schools  with  an  enrollment  below  eight  have  been  clos- 
ed tenq?orarily,  bringing  the  number  so  closed  up  to  four 
iiundred  and  twenty- five.  The  value  of  this  policy  is  not 
so  much  the  saving  in  cost  as  it  is  the  inprovement  of 
instruction  which  can  be  given  in  the  larger  class-groups. 

The  provincial  scholarship  plan  has  been  considerably 
expended  to  aid  able  but  needy  studentSo  Five  hundred  and 
eighteen  winners  of  scholarships  and  bursaries  are  now 
studying  in  our  universities,  normal  schools  and  other  in- 
stitutions of  higher  learnings 

A  new  step  has  been  taken  in  the  field  of  advanced 
technical  training  by  the  opening  of  the  Ontario  Mining 
Institute  at  Haileybury»  Under  the  direction  of  an  Advisory 
Committee,  which  represents  all  phases  of  mining  activity, 
the  Institute  is  already  functioning  satisfactorily. 

One  of  the  most  interesting  developments  in  the  past 
year  has  been  the  opening  of  a  training  centre  in  Toronto 
for  ex-service  men  and  women.  This  is  the  first  establish- 


-  4 

laent  of  its  kind  in  Canada.  It  is  under  the  administrative 
direction  of  the  Department  of  Education,  working  in  full 
cooperation  with  the  Dominion  Government  as  part  of  the 
broad  rehabilitation  programmeo  Training  is  already  being 
given  in  fourteen  different  occupations,  and  instruction  in 
other  trades  will  be  available  as  aoon  as  the  need  arises 6 
There  is  a  great  demand  for  special  educational  training 
which  will  prepare  returning  veterans  for  university  courses 
or  vocational  training,  and  a  higlily  successfxil  tutorial 
course  has  been  established  which  will  be  expanded  rapidly, 
as  demobilization  proceeds » 

It  is  fully  recognized  that  the  efficiency  of  any 
system  of  education  depends  primarily  upon  the  teachers 
themselves,  and  it  has  been  the  desire  of  the  Department  of 
Education  to  ingjrove  teaching  standards  throughout  the  prov- 
ince and  to  put  the  teaching  profession  upon  a  sound  and 
satisfactory  basis.  Since  the  passing  of  the  Ontario  Teach- 
ing Profession  Act  during  the  last  Session,  the  Teachers' 
Federation  has  assumed  new  responsibilities  and  has  given  to 
the  teachers  of  the  province  a  means  of  expression  and  pro- 
fessional direction  which  will  be  of  great  help  to  them  and 
to  the  whole  province.  It  appears  that  many  improvements 
which  are  so  necessary  in  educational  administration  would 
be  greatly  helped  if  there  were  some  single  organization  of 
a  similar  nature  which  brought  together  the  combined  opinion 
of  all  Boards  of  School  Trustees  throughout  Ontario* 

The  serious  shortage  of  trained  ijeachers,  which  has 
reached  critical  proportions  in  all  provinces,  was  met  in 
Ontario  by  organizing  summer  sessions  in  two  normal  schools 
and  in  the  Ontario  College  of  Education.  The  closing  of 
many  schools  was  averted  by  this  action.  And  the  results 

-  5  - 

were  so  satisfactory  that  it  will  not  be  necessary  to  con- 
duct these  special  courses  during  the  coming  year.  There 
is,  however,  a  definite  need  for  teachers  of  general  shop 
work  and  trade  subjects.  To  meet  this  need,  the  Ontario 
Training  College  for  Technical  Teachers  was  re-opened 
last  month. 

Guidance  of  the  instruction  of  pupils  is  arousing  ever- 
increasing  interest,  and  a  Provincial  Director  of  Guidance 
has  been  appointed  to  extend  the  full  advantages  of  this 
important  Educational  development  to  every  part  of  the  proT- 
ince.  School  Boards  may  now  employ  their  own  Guidance  Of- 
ficer. Material  which  will  assist  in  organizing  this  work 
in  the  schools  can  now  be  secured  from  the  Ontario  College 
of  Education  at  cost  price© 

New  courses  have  been  introduced  which  place  special 
emphasis  upon  character,  physical  fitness  and  citizenship. 
Religious  education  has  been  extended  as  a  part  of  the 
curriculum  in  the  public  schools,  and  in  cooperation  with 
the  Inter-Church  Committee  on  Week-day  Religious  Education, 
a  Teacher's  Manual  and  guide  books  for  the  first  four  grades 
have  been  prepared  and  issued.  Under  a  Director  of  Physical 
and  Health  Education,  courses  have  been  revised  and  greatly 
extended.  Cadet  training  has  been  introduced  as  a  part  of 
the  high  school  programme.  This  course  is  co-related  with 
phyisical  and  health  education  to  develop  physical  fitness, 
initiative  and  a  sense  of  responsibility.  Another  important 
development  has  been  the  appointment  of  a  Provincial  Super- 
visor of  Art,  who  is  responsible  for  encouraging  the  arts 
and  crafts,  placing  particular  emphasis  upon  the  use  of 
local  materials.   Increased  emphasis  has  been  placed  upon 
the  teaching  of  history  and  the  responsibilities  of  citizen- 

«  6  - 

ship.  A  very  valuable  new  book  has  just  been  completed 
explaining  the  history  and  operation  of  Canadian  insti- 
tutions, which  will  shortly  be  ready  for  use  in  Grade 
XII.  Many  further  revisions  of  school  courses  are  under 
consideration,  but  are  delayed  for  the  present  by  waartime 
shortages  and  the  difficulty  of  obtaining  new  text  boolcs. 

A  committee  has  been  set  up  to  assist  in  the  planning, 
construction  and  equipment  of  schools.  The  purpose  of  this 
advisory  committee  is  to  take  advantage  of  new  construction 
methods  so  that  schools  may  be  built  at  the  lowest  possible 
cost,  and  at  the  same  time  give  every  modern  advantage  to 
the  pupils.  This  committee  will  be  of  great  assistance  in 
carrying  out  a  much-needed  prograrame  of  school  renovation 
and  construction. 

The  Department  of  Health  has  done  much  to  ensure  a 
maximum  of  public  health  and  preventive  services  for  all 
of  the  people  within  the  province,  despite  the  difficulties 
of  carrying  out  a  comprehensive  programme  under  wartime  con- 
ditions.  The  principle  of  larger  units  for  public  health 
administration  is  being  accepted  by  local  authorities.  A 
return  to  civilian  life  of  physicians,  nurses  and  other 
technical  staff  will  make  it  possible  to  establish  a  sub- 
stantial number  of  units  throughout  the  province  at  that 
time.  Two  such  units  were  established  last  year,  and  three 
more  are  now  being  organized. 

The  plan  of  the  Department  for  securing,  public  health 
nurses  has  been  most  effective.  Fifty-two  nurses  were  re- 
cruited and  are  now  taking  the  post-graduate  training  re- 
quired for  this  work.  They  will  be  available  on  May  1st, 

The  Government  has  extended  an  opportunity  to  other 

-  7  - 

professional  personnel  to  secxire   the  needed  special  quali- 
fications required  for  positions  in  these  units.      It  is 
proposed  to  continue  this  plan  for  another  yearo 

The  health  of  the  worker,  particxilarly  in  industry, 
continues  to  assiime  its  proper  relationship  to  the  public 
health  programme  as  a  whole.     The  Department  is  hopeful 
of  the  opportunity  during  the  coaing  year  to  set  up  one 
or  more  demonstration  units  in  selected  highly-industrializ- 
ed areas.     The  purpose  of  these  is  to  show  what   can  be 
accomplished  in  this   field  when  an  effective  method  of  ex- 
tending this  service  is  carried  outo 

Sustained  efforts  are  being  made  to  reduce  the  inci- 
dence of  social  diseases.      It  may  be  noted  that  during  the 
past  year  there  has  been  a  substantial  drop  in  the  number 
of  reported   cases  of  the  most  serious  of  these  diseaaeflo 
Legislation  will  be  introduced  to  further  assist  an  effect- 
ive control  programme. 

The  problem  of  the  control  of  tuberculosis   is  still 
mainly  one  of  increased  diagnostic  facilities  and  adequate 
sanatorium  accommodatiouo      It  has  been  demonstrated  that 
the  mass  survey  of  entire   communities  by  x-ray  is  both 
practicable  and  effective »     An  extension  of  this  method  of 
case  finding  is  being  \mdertaken. 

Post-war  construction  of  needed  sewage-disposal  and 
water-supply  plants   is  being  considered  in  an  increasing 
number  of  communities  now  in  need  of  this  type  of  service. 
It  has  been  of  extreme  interest  to  note   the   acceptance  by 
the  public  at  large  of  the  need  for  quite  substantial 
commitments  on  the  part  of  the  local  authorities  in  support 
of  these  projects. 

The  protection  of  the  public  food  stipply  is  a  task 

erf  ■' 

tBdmta  t^ 
-tootle  OB  tzlmma 


moaneq  iBfloiaaeloiq; 

'Oi    o:'  r 

B  afl  MnBangr  _..  - 

.•\  t'r  A    JS^ 


Sxxx8B97oal  OB  ai  bo'i 

eBBeioajt  to  eco  x-^ni^ta. 

■---:.  -  ■-;;'   trlf 

,&rttoet'iQ  tna  eid&oltoaiq 

n9^tteb:ai  rented  zt  gaifixxil  ezBO 


'B    far. . 


■tre   bo 

il  orii 

-  8  - 

assuming  substantial  proportions,  and  a  s\irvey  of  the  pro- 
cedure now  being  followed  in  both  urban  and  rural  munici- 
palities will  be  undertaken  during  the  coming  year. 

Over-crowding  in  the  mental  hospitals  of  the  province 
continues  to  be  a  cause  of  great  concern.  The  return  of 
the  Ontario  Hospital  at  St.  Thomas,  which  is  an  early  pos- 
sibility, will  only  provide  ten^iorary  relief  of  the  need 
for  additional  beds.  An  addition  to  the  hospital  at 
Orillia  is  now  nearing  completion,  and  new  hospitals  in 
other  parts  of  the  province  will  be  part  of  our  post-war 

Plans  are  ready  for  an  extensive  programme  of  mental 
hygiene  to  be  iii5)lemented  upon  the  return  of  the  fifty- 
seven  psychiatrists  of  the  Department  now  serving  with  the 
Armed  Forces. 

Reduction  of  the  incidence  of  cancer  continues  to 
receive  the  attention  of  the  Government.  The  myembers  of 
the  Cancer  Foxmdation  have  worked  assiduously  with  the 
Department  in  the  evolution  of  a  programme  for  an  extension 
of  diagnostic  and  curative  services  for  this  condition. 

Investigation  has  shown  that  the  present  rate  of 
payment  for  indigent  patients  in  public  hospitals  is  not 
sufficient  to  meet  the  mounting  cost  of  hospital  care  at 
the  public-ward  level.   Legislation  will  be  introduced  to 
deal  with  this  subject.   Hospital  accommodation  is  under 
review,  and  it  is  hoped  that  the  needs  of  those  municipali- 
ties #iere  it  is  at  present  insufficient  may  be  met  at  an 
early  date. 

One  of  the  basic  problems  of  medical  care  is  the  lack 
of  diagnostic  facilities,  particiilarly  in  the  smaller  com- 
munities. The  cost  of  necessary  equipment,  the  difficulty 

^  ("  r    !•  m      *  n  V  4 

,.    ..   i'^ 

-acq   '4.;  ■     t 

fie  iXiw   ,>j;riXidlB 

tB   Xbj  .  «f*  toTt 




"    "■'     uiluX  i 

-xmi   er 

tffli   ad  od-  9nel3'{rf 

0              w  ■^n.tvToe  won  taieitti                  lo 

B^tBli^fliffoysq  xr»rea 

.gaarzol  bei»l. 

0*    Bfe 


lo   eT'"'jn-->!n   sri'"      .  d-nofr.-r^^Tor'    orlJ 

T9tJx3  edJ  evioooi 

»ri*   ;Uiv                    :  3SJB   o©:- 

■■"■    -oorygO    sa- 



,  nr.                                                  -'  tw:  ©a    svl  ?■  A  t  ■ 


10    dJB- 





yL£iXi~oilQi}(i  eaJ 

00  DB   Jj8*iq8oH 

zldt  rivMw  iBafi 

.    - .    ebeec 

bnn    .WQirai 

„fl2i  JTt9lol^*Iu8iSj:  ;ffl«&©iq 

:  ©13 xa  aaiJ 

,etRb  iltBB 

-Eiaa  aeXXBfiie  c.XiJBiuoX;riBq  ,BeX*XIiOfll  oiszoasBi: 

-  9  - 

of  securing  a  technical  staff  and  medical  men  with  the  re- 
quired skill  and  experience  in  interpretation,  make  local 
effort  in  many  areas  virtually  impossible.  This  problem 
has  been,  and  is  being,  studied  with  a  view  to  establishing 
a  comprehensive  programme  within  the  coming  year,  augment- 
ed as  soon  as  personnel  is  available^ 

The  Board 5  set  up  under  authority  of  the  Municipal 
Health  Services  Act,  1944,  has  reported  that  there  is  a 
total  lack  of  reliable  information  as  to  the  cost  of 
operating  coinprehensive  curative  health  services.   Due  to 
this  and  a  shortage  of  personnel  there  is  no  present  pos- 
sibility of  making  these  services  generally  applicable 
throughout  the  province.  The  Board  is  attempting  to  estab- 
lish municipal  services  in  a  few  representative  communities, 
in  order  that  exact  information  as  to  the  cost  can  be  obtain- 

The  Government  has  continued  to  receive  the  cooperation 
of  the  medical  profession,  both  individually  and  collective  - 
ly,  in  its  efforts  to  promote  a  constructive  pro  gramme  of 
public  health,  preventive  care,  and  curative  health  services. 

The  Department  of  Public  Welfare  has  put  into  effect 
new  food  schedules,  so  that  persons  requiring  assistance  may 
be  assured  of  an  adequate  diet  based  on  proper  nutritional 
requirements.  The  Government  makes  a  contribution  to  the 
municipality  of  fifty  per  cent,  of  the  cost  of  these  food 
allowances.  Mothers*  Allowances  have  also  been  increased 
where  need  is  shown.  New  Day  Nurseries  and  Day  Care  Centres 
are  being  opened.  Twenty-two  of  the  former  and  forty  of  the 
latter  are  now  in  operation.  A  Youth  and  Child  Welfare 
Division  has  been  established  to  deal  specially  with  the 
problem  of  these  groups. 

-  10  - 

The  work  of  the  Department  of  Labour  has  been  greatly 
expanded.  The  Regional  War  Labour  Board  for  Ontario  has 
continued  to  function  during  the  paat  year  under  the  Chair- 
manship of  the  Minister  of  Labour.  This  Board  administers 
the  Wartime  Wages' Control  Order  in  the  Province  of  Ontario 
as  part  of  the  Dominion  machinery  set  up  to  prevent  infla- 
tion. Approximately  eight  thousand  cases  were  considered 
last  year  by  this  Board,  or  about  one-third  of  the  total 
for  the  whole  Dominion.  In  addition' *fco  ^plications  for 
rate  adjustments,  the  Board  has  dealt  with  many  applications 
concerning  sick  benefit  schemes,  group  insurances,  pension 
schemes,  extended  vacation  programmes  and  hospitalization. 
Those  advances  in  the  protection  and  welfare  of  industrial 
workers  will  undoubtedly  have  a  permanent  place  in  the  con- 
ditions of  employment  in  industry,  and  will  be  available  to 
many  ex-service  men  returning  to  their  peacetime  occupa- 

The  Workmen's  Cou^jensation  Act  will  be  broadened  again 
this  year  to  bring  additional  classes  of  workers  under  its 
protection  and  legislation  will  be  introduced  for  this 
purpose.   I  am  advised  that  it  is  the  opinion  of  my 
Ministers  that  every  person  who  works  for  an  employer  should 
ultimately  have  tBe  protection  of  this  Acto 

The  Ontario  Labour  Relations'  Board  has  disposed  of 
a  great  majority  of  the  four  hundred  cases  submitted  to  it 
since  it  was  established  last  April.  It  is  worthy  of  note 
that  the  number  of  cases  in  which  the  employer  and  employee 
members  of  the  Bosurd  have  been  in  disagreement  has  been  al- 
most negligible,  and  it  is  a  gratifying  fact  that  the  man- 
days  of  work  lost  in  industrial  disputes  throughout  Ontario 
have  been  considerably  reduced.  The  Ontario  Government  has 

r-   ' 
8l8*Biclitf6B   6-rflofI   sir' 

ua^ai;    ami'^" 

01  oXcfsIJtBVB  e  7  J[)nfl   tyi;ti 

nlBS©  b«a«fc  XXJtw  toA  iXoilBaneqmoO   e 

iv  noli  Alt 


•raod  eriJ  3q  as 

.-  xKdx  jeal 
;,tr!9ir;tBt'M>8  ©tart 

'  fto^elze   ,Bea9ii08 

'   ssraavlJB  OBBifT 

.19    S-XB^llOV 

to  maotilb 
lez-'Xa   i;nBa 
•  Bnoi^ 
W  erfT 

. eaoqiuq 

avflii   ileiaaittlu 

to  ijeaoq-sif)  ex. 

.oS  •  eno  ttB 

':  3u  ;iar[  i-nano©^B8ib  ai  need  avad  i>'Lso-   *=•■'■'  '^o  aiadinara 

-!isi3  ec  d-5Bl  aaiYtl^Bia  fl   ai  J-Jt  baa  ,©idlaxXs©c  ^raoxa 

oiTBcfno  *£r'^:hiroT:riJ  ee^i/qeif)  XBia;tai/5nJ:  nx  cTsoX  ^irrow  lo  a>ca^ 

-  11  - 

agreed  with  the  Dominion  Government  that  all  decisions  of 
the  Board  shall  be  subject  to  appeal  to  the  National  war- 
time Labour  Relations*  Boardo 

The  Minimum  Wage  Act  and  the  regulations  thereunder 
will  be  amended  to  secure  a  more  satisfactory  remuneration 
for  female  workers  and  to  change  the  hours  of  work  from 
fifty- two  to  forty-eight.  Rates  of  pay  will  be  adjusted 
by  the  Industry  and  Labour  Board. 

The  pressing  needs  of  war  production  and  the  shortage 
of  labour  have  made  it  necessary  for  the  Department  of 
Labour  to  exercise  great  care  in  administering  the  Act 
passed  last  year  dealing  with  hours  of  work  and  vacations 
with  pay.  Thousands  of  workers  have,  however,  enjoyed 
shorter  hours  and  holidays  with  pay.  All  work  over  forty- 
eight  hours,  or  above  any  lower  minimum,  which  may  have 
been  established  in  particular  industries,  has  been  con*» 
sidered  as  overtime  worko  This  Act  has  caused  work  to  be 
spread  among  a  greater  number  of  workers,  an  effect  which 
will  be  more  pronounced  after  the  war.  The  Department  of 
Labour  has  been  cooperating  in  the  effort  to  provide 
technical  and  practical  training  for  men  discharged  from 
the  Arm«d  Forces.  Provision  has  been  made,  for  example,  to 
allow  stationary  engineers,  when  demobilized,  to  count 
their  period  of  war  service  in  meeting  the  requirements 
for  operating  experience «, 

Agriculture  continues  to  be  the  most  important  basic 
industry  in  Ontario.  In  the  past  year  production  increased 
in  spite  of  the  critical  shortage  of  farm  labour,  and  the 
demands  upon  our  farmers  this  year  will  be  equally  greats 

During  the  past  year,  considerable  study  has  been  de- 
voted to  the  organization  and  administration  of  the  Ontario 

-  il  ' 

-X3W  ir  .i  odi 

Cr-ftSI?  31/0191   rid 


9d  XXaila  bxeoS  aild^ 

I    -!    *.    t     -.  fT        .«.  . 


.-^  ^  &iji. 


ni fiXQ   , ; t  TUT.  daJ 

ebnfiai/oxfT     •X^  lUiw 

'B   aii;n  f  Tstiorfp. 

-»  a»«d  aari   f»9liimsbnl  i  edailda^aa  ixostf 

su   ..^   ^*>  ..   *.-.^.,-. .   a£if  toA  «i.  -      .-..-  JHOTO  BB  beiBbiz 

1  :ew  9rf*   -js^lB  bs  eiom  ad  Litw 

moi'i  i><»8  ' 

^    jfce- 

,.;  onri      n«»Ci-f     ag^. 



OXSBG     k'l.ij.J  ;i-4Ui. 


tBJ-3  voXIa 

xa  aai;t'fli»qo  lol 

■(  r, 

frv.    *  ^-•*^.  r. 

ailJ  ba&   jii/ocffll  ffitfll  lo  •a^^'foj^s  iBotttro  >itqz  al 

o^BdiS  ^IxB^ii"  6cf  XXiw  "iaax;  "'  aJbxiflinaJb 

-9b  aaec  Ja  eXdfliaManoo    »^Be-\c  i^asq  eri*  saxii/a 

olisi-nO  art*  lo  noii'Ba;J-«lnXfflfiB  fina  floll-BsXnssio  edi  oi  betov 

-  12  - 

Agriciiltural  College,  the  MacDonald  Institute,  and  the 
Ontario  Veterinary  College o  Appropriate  steps  will  be 
taken  to  bring  these  important  institutions,  which  are 
situated  on  one  can^ius,  under  a  co-ordinated  plan  of 
administration,  which  will  make  the  utmost  use  of  all. 
their  educational,  research,  and  other  facilitieSo 

The  Ontario  Stockyards  have  been  taken  over  and  plac- 
ed under  the  control  of  the  Ontario  Stockyards'  Board„  Its 
operation  has  already  proved  most  satisfactory. 

Pasture  is  one  of  our  moat  important  crops  which  has 
for  many  years  received  little  attention.  The  Government 
has  embarked  on  an  extensive  series  of  demonstration  lota 
where  experiments  in  various  types  of  permanent  pasture 
are  carried  out  \inder  the  supervision  of  County  Field  Crop 
Associations.  Further  extensions  of  this  in5)ortant  pro- 
gramme will  be  undertaken  this  yeaPo 

County  Agricultural  Committees  have  been  organized  in 
many  counties,  and  it  seems  likely  that  most,  if  not  all, 
the  counties  of  Ontario  will  soon  have  committees  of  out-» 
standing  farmers  to  guide  and  assist  agricultural  produc- 
tion in  their  own  countieso 

Heavy  Dominion  taxation,  man-power  shortage,  and  war»- 
time  restrictions  continue  to  depress  Ontario's  great 
mining  industry  and  to  affect  adversely  the  revenues  of 
the  province  and  the  mining  municipal it ies«  The  value  of 
mineral  production  in  1944  was  $210,000,000,  as  compared 
with  $230,000,000  in  1943.  This  was  mainly  because  of 
lowered  output  from  the  gold  mines,  which  f0ll  from  more 
than  $122,000,000  in  1940  to  $65,000,000  in  1944.  The 
nximber  of  producers  have  fallen  from,  seventy-four  in  1941 
to  less  than  forty  at  the  present  time*  There  are  indica- 

9A1    bw. 

•00   grit  lebnv  b9 

..ijj»9Xis   sax:  nolJB-isqo 

">erleo 91   axBS-'r  vrrjBsi  ic* 

9.taeatieqxe  enedn 

-itvxacrrT  1^::o   BsJrTTaa    ^im 

Bi    JSitOII    it- 

•  Fi  ;*■;    ••        -1  V  f* 


to  ©yXsT  e 
J^diAqssoo   8A 

to  6Bis»QQd  xLalasa.  a^ 

fuan    ^noltaxB. 



0>€I  fli 

.^'X  ;^aXbaMtA 
I  led*  at  aott 

XiiAubaJL  ^latai 

.a»  sonlvorrq  exfct' 


,0QS4  dtXw 

jqtuo  bertmoL 

-MO-..  oSffli*   ;>-fl»B»Tq  arli^  *b  ^*"iot  iiad*  aaeX  o* 

-  13  - 

tions  that  other  producing  mines  will  be  forced  to  abandon 
operations  in  the  near  future©  In  terms  of  revenue  the 
decline  is  much  more  marked,  with  the  Goyemment  collecting 
less  than  nineteen  per  cent,  of  the  amount  collected  in  1941 
from  gold  productiono  The  Royal  Ontario  Mining  Commission, 
appointed  in  October,  1943,  has  made  an  exhaustive  report  on 
mining  in  the  province.  Some  of  its  recommendations  have  al- 
ready been  put  into  effect,  and  others  will  be  presented  to 
you  in  the  form  of  legislation,  A  meeting  of  Provincial 
Mines'  Ministers  is  to  be  held  in  Q.uebec  this  spring,  when  it 
is  hoped  that  solutions  will^ be  found  for  various  problems, 
including  that  of  overlapping  taxation. 

You  will  be  gratified  to  learn  that  the  Provincial 
Treasurer  has  comple.ted  an  agreement  with  the  Treasurer  of 
the  Province  of  'Quebec  whereby  overlapping  of  Succession 
Duties  upon  estates  situated  within  the  two  provinces  will 
be  avoided.  A  similar  arrangement  has  been  completed  witli 
the  Province  of  Nova  Scotia.  The  remaining  provinces  have 
been  invited  to  enter  into  similar  agreements,  so  that 
multiple  provincial  taxation  may  be  ended.  Important  amend- 
ments designed  to  clarify  the  provisions  of  the  Succession 
Duty  Act,  and  thus  make  for  better  administrative  procedure, 
will  be  presented  to  you  for  consideration* 


The  Travel  and  Publicity  Bureau  arranged  during  the  year 
an  important  conference  on  post-war  tourist  planning.   The 
proceedings  are  printed,  and  have  been  in  wide  demand.   The 
Bureau  is  respecting  the  wish  of  the  Government  of  the  United 
States  that  long-distance  travel  should  not  be  encouraged  at 
present,  but  contacts  are  being  maintained  and  plans  laid  for 
attracting  tourists  to  Ontario  after  the  war. 

The  Temiskaming  and  Northern  Ontario  Railway  is  also  ex- 

-  51  - 

aoboMdB  ct  SeoTol  ad  IlJtw  »e  •  louhonq  xexfJo  ^jsdt  aaoidf- 

it  a^tiw  J  7  Bi  8a»^e  aeaJM 

flO    tTLO>-l-.' 

9dt  n 

Ut'ii    80 

i«j/x£vo   YUBiajQw   aijQOi;^-  ,...j 

-  b&i&  &QiB7ze  noqu  bbHuCL 

^mB%B£ii£  rsiiitmtp,  A      .j&sfi£ovB  ©cf 

bOM    ^ioA  x^uQ. 

—    , —  ^  91*  esniJieeooiQ 

dajtw  li^osqaei  ax  UMetuS. 

iarBii  9onMtiitb'.  iMiii  adimtB 

J  @aa  siOBiaoo  tu6  ,#GeeeTq 
o'viiw  ©XL*  lai^xJB  oiio-taO  od-  ei-aixi/oi-  ani^o«ii'i'« 
-x»  oalii  ai  Y«W-tiaH  *  iioil^ioll  i^iua  gnijinaalBiineT  8iiT 


-  14 

plorlng  the  possibilities  of  the  tourist  trade  and  investi- 
gating supplementary  methods  of  transportationo  Although 
the  railway  has  not  participated  to  any  noticeable  extent 
in  the  business  expansion  which  the  war  industries  have 
brought  to  certain  parts  of  the  province,  and  although  it 
hasfelt  the  effects  of  the  depressed  condition  of  the  min- 
ing industry,  the  Commissioners  have  cause  for  satisfac- 
tion in  reporting  that  for  the  year  ended  March  31st,  1944, 
the  gross  revenues  of  the  railway  reached  an  all-time  high 
of  $6,358,428.95.   The  Commission  is  considering  a  substan- 
tial programme  of  expansion  this  year,  which  includes  boat 
service  on  the  Temagami  Lakes  and  on  Lake  Nipissing,  to- 
gether with  the  purchase  of  additional  rail  equipment  and 
general  improvement  in  facilities. 

The  Department  of  Game  and  Fisheries  has  completed 
plans  for  additioneil  fish  hatcheries  designed  to  take  care 
of  the  increasing  demands  on  the  game  and  commercial  fish 
of  the  province.  To  ensure  that  these  facilities  will  be 
put  to  the  best  possible  use  it  is  proposed  to  add  to  the 
staff  of  the  Fish  Culture  Branch  a  number  of  men  with 
biological  training  or  who  are  qualified  to  take  such  train- 
ing. A  general  survey  of  water  conditions  is  to  be  made, 
with  special  enquiry  into  natural  and  artificial  barriers  in 
lakes  and  streams  which  obstruct  the  passage  of  fish  to  the 
spawning  beds.   The  desirability  of  establishing  fish  ladders 
where  obstructions  cannot  be  removed  will  also  be  considered. 
This  Department,  which  derives  substantial  revenues  from 
hunting  and  fishing  licenses,  also  proposes  to  improve  tour- 
ist accoimaodations  through  a  more  intensive  camp  inspection 
and  a  programme  of  education.   Crown  Lands  where  fur-bearing 
animals  may  be  taken  will  be  zoned,  and  preference  in  the 

hi  - 

1  set  jtj>lrii> 

'31  al  ttolt 


T    O.  *■  ■     f^    ■ 

-»n>    ^  7  4- 


Jbae  taetaqLvpi 


-      ^^^     ^   .4  . 

,  fifttS! 


: q  &di  dJiv  tedie^ 
.B0.     .  :ul  Ifliaxies 

'•^  biXB  etu>t  -iqsa  mil 

sexiaiio^Bil  xiail  ijBaoi;rxbl>B  lol  exiisXq 

?--■' —     ■■'■*   to 

Idxaaoq  tzt 


}iniu^  LB79xxes  A     .saJt 

nB   iBxuJec  r;/prr©   .Ce.r09<T3  ritiw 

if  scifiVBqa 

:'-cE9*r:  etf  JoflflBO   anoJt^ojLf-rJsrfo  onejclw 
s&i,»a3"i0'i  isx-£iaJSwije  .ei-vx'ist  ,  rnsisrxsqou 

4ffi[i  o?'   Beaoqoiq  oals   ^aeaxiealJ    .         aJtl  6flB  ;/ri 

u-fla   STl3ns*ni   aion;  a  ri?iirotff3"  anoii'sboflaaooofi  tai 
I  uasxii"  fuDiuxi  nwoiO      .xioxjeoxrae  xo  aauusT^iCi 

D8C0S  ed  II^w  neiLs^  ecf  xmi  alBffixxiB 

sd'  o  all? 

-  15  - 

allocation  of  areas  will  be  given  to  experienced  trappera 
and  war  veterans. 

To  achieve  Toniformity  in  vital  statistics'  laws 
throughout  the  Dominion,  a  new  Vital  Statistics'  Act  will 
be  introduced.   Legislation  will  also  be  introduced  to 
permit  the  province  to  replace  county  and  city  gaols  with 
suitable  modern  institutions  v/here  that  may  be  deemed  ad- 
visable. The  Mimic o  Reformatory,  which  for  several  years 
has  been  used  by  the  Federal  authorities  for  war  purposes, 
was  returned  to  the  control  of  the  province  last  May  and 
is  again  being  used  as  a  reformatory.  Facilities  for 
training  and  accommodation  at  the  Ontario  Training  School 
for  Girls  have  been  almost  doubled,  and  a  suitable  gymnasium 
has  been  provided. 

The  municipalities  of  the  province  are  shown  by  their 
reports  to  be  in  a  sound  financial  position,  and  have  led 
the  way  in  debt  reduction  for  the  whole  of  Canada.   Invest- 
ments  in  post-war  reserves  already  total  $1,827,5S9,  Amend- 
ments to  the  Assessment  Act  will  be  introduced,  which,  among 
other  provisions,  will  enable  municipalities  to  collect 
taxes  from  Crown  tenants  of  commercial  properties.   The 
Municipal  Act  will  also  be  amended  in  important  particulars. 

The  Government  recognizes  that  the  forests,  the  lands 
and  the  streams,  and  their  resources,  constitute  Ontario's 
greatest  asset  for  the  employment  of  the  skills  of  her 
I>eople,  and  for  their  health  and  enjoyment.   Our  forests  must 
produce  perpetual  supplies  of  raw  material  if  they  are  to 
provide  continuous  em^ployment  for  our  citizens.  To  assure 
this  emplojrment  and  to  produce  the  required  material  our 
forests  must  be  adequately  protected,  and  the  crop  must  be 
cultured  and  improved.   The  Government,  therefore,  proposes 

-  ex  - 

ftrteqqaiJ  b--  i*  at  -booIXb 

IXJtw  4"0/    '  '^  s    ,Xioxxilraoa   er' 

O^  6eo(/&o<x^fl;  tiBi&t;iBJ      .bos; 

^%ei'. ■'■■'"■"-'  '^siw  10'^   "  -f  b&zsj  need  bjsxI 

ftaa  X^^  ieal  »9as.roiq_  9dt  Ic  iiui9i  zbw 

looxlo"  ^.,..-*~     ^^^   ^^  col^J's&orai..'  -'   a  bno  aaJtfliBi:;^ 

mu/BB'  \.a  »:-:-  a  itas    ,jb0i  aoualB  xxeed  evAd  eXalO  lot 

„  ^?■  ^9cf  ao£f 

axe..  awQae   s"iii   aauxvo-i'.;  ■_.;.'.i,.,    vxIT 

ft»I  evflil  baa  .      jz 

-tsarnl     .»6»nB0  to  sXoriw  'fiw  erf* 

3aoias   ,iloiiiw   ,£>e  taaffleBeseA  ed^  oj*  zinea 

toeilot)   ot  so  T  alrffiff©  Iliw   .srfOlatroTr  tarfto 

en-'      .ae  ..-   ..  :j  us^is  "^ 

«  B'. 

B'oiajt*  :uoo    ,asoiJLfc    .  a   aa: 

rr9xi  'io   elXlit  '".":-.  lol  ;r»BBB  *Bo;r«©i8. 

Jawin   a .t ;■- a-r -/ ;  .  •;  -    •  '■.  ,.   .';:f  oXaoecr 

•iifBaE  .eassitio  ^ijo  lol  d-nais^oXctJaa  Bj:;ox;i3X;ffloo  9f>^o'i<i 

rti!.-    tr;  i-Totfii-r  ftsiitrpe^    ^•'^tt    sant  Snjs   tneBrroXcrind  eiriJ" 

5--    .1 -r-./u  qouci   on;}  b SIM   «iiOJoe;roaq  'iiaTjQX/pSDS   9U   jaixci  STEa^ol 

Baaoqoiq    .diolaiaril    ^i-aacrnievoC  .fievo^cpttl  ioe  betss^luo 


-  16  - 

first  to  bring  the  protection  of  the  forests  to  a  high 
standard  of  efficiency,  and  to  make  it  possible  to  malii- 
tain  a  continuously  high  standard  in  the  years  to  comeo 
It  proposes,  secondly,  to  assure  proper  management  of 
these  forests.  These  plans  embody  rehabilitation  oppor- 
tunities on  a  large  scale  for  war  veterans.  An  immedi- 
ate project  is  to  find,  if  possible,  some  way  of  con- 
trolling the  Budworm  epidemic  in  Northern  Ontario,,  A 
large-scale  experiment  is  proposed  along  practical  lines 
in  the  Nipigon  Lake  area.  The  Legislature  will  be  asked 
to  provide  funds  to  purchase  the  most  modern  insecticides, 
and  when  these  are  made  available  by  the  '.lartlme  Priorities' 
Board  an  area  of  over  100,000  acres  will  be  treated  by 
aerial  methods o  Our  air  fleets  greatly  depleted  in  the 
war  years,  will  be  augmented  by  the  purchase  of  four  of 
the  most  modern  air craft « 

A  laboratory  at  Sault  Ste,  liarle  for  the  study  of 
forest  insects  will  be  completed  during  the  year  as  part 
of  a  long-term  programme  for  the  protection  of  our  forests 
from  insects 0  This  laboratory,  in  equipment  and  staffing, 
will  be  among  the  most  modern  in  the  world.   The  Forest 
Bangers  who  fight  fires  and  supervise  timber-cutting  are 
the  foundation  of  the  protection  and  management  systemo 
The  new  Ranger  School  in  Hallburton  will  be  opened  this 
year.  Here  it  will  be  possible  for  rangers  and  for  key 
men  in  the  woods'  industries  to  attend  and  take  advantage 
of  the  educational  facilities  provided  by  this  advanced 
school.   In  the  field  of  Reforestation,  preparations  are 
being  made  to  add  to  the  production  of  our  forest  nurser- 
ies by  additions  to  existing  stations,  and  by  the  estab- 
lishment of  new  stations  where  needed.   You  will  be  asked 
to  consider  legislation  to  permit  counties  to  deal  with 

»  fliet 

5^af'  ":;t9   sloi- 


'j   tr^i'slcrffloa    erf  ILtn  z-iaeznt   teeac'i 

r  ©ild- 

■  u;   iiBviii  oataJ   tat 
•1  seitrn 

.^exi  a 


-  17  - 

the  cutting  of  wood  lots  on  patented  lands  within  their 

municipal  boundaries.  Authority  will  also  be  sought  to 
provide  a  body  of  trained  men  capable  of  dealing  with  the 
broad  questions  of  management  in  our  forests. 

In  ifeeping  with  wartime  conditions,  the  work  of  the 
Department  of  Highways  during  the  past  year  has  been  con- 
fined almost  entirely  to  maintenance,  and  only  minor  con- 
struction involving  the  replacement  of  bridges  was  under- 
taken. The  Department  faced  a  serious  shortage  of  equip- 
ment and  man-power,  and  considerable  deterioration  of  many 
highways  has  been  the  result.  To  prevent  serious  damage 
being  caused  to  many  road  surfaces,  a  programme  of  light 
bitximinous  paving  was  successfully  carried  out.  More  than 
two  hundred  miles  of  main  highway  were  surfaced  in  this 
manner,  which  will  give  a  substantial  saving  in  mainten- 
ance costs  in  the  coming  yearo  Exceptionally  heavy  snow- 
fall throughout  the  province,  accompanied  by  high  winds, 
caused  increased  expenditure  and  taxed  the  snow-plowing 
facilities  of  the  Department  to  the  limit.  Increased 
financial  assistance  was  given  to  the  municipalities, 
particularly  in  regard  to  bridges »  Recognizing  the  impor- 
tance of  the  county  and  township  roads  to  the  war  effort, 
very  little  reduction  was  made  in  the  subsidy  grants. 

¥0T   the  ccming  year  capital  expenditure  will  again  be 
confined  to  those  highways  serving  military  camps,  airports 
and  war  industries.  It  is  proposed  to  continue  the  pro- 
gramme of  light  bituminous  surfacing  so  far  as  available 
equipment  and  man-power  will  permit,  not  only  as  a  means  of 
reducing  maintenance  expenditures,  but  also  to  conserve 
available  supplies  of  gravel  for  future  use.  Additional 
snow  plowing  equipment  is  being  purchased,  and  arrangements 
will  also  be  made  whereby  road  maintenance  machinery,  such 
as  power  graders,  will  be  available  for  rental  to  sparsely- 

1/  tw  Bi 

ftt     frl      .r-^-y 

33^j8q  no  a^oJ   boow  to  aaJt^^i/o  9dt 


"COO  aa&n  adii  i&t 


1  n  r-'  tj 


ilea  a  i> 


TOlxe             Ccfs-iei 


-r.3;i       i  .     -     -.:-■ 

eisuas               J    .B': 


hetiiBO  ^IJJulnaao 


'     .-«w  yaw; 


tBBx  "^ntssoo 

-  oaXautld 

"^  hanfifljuri  owi^ 


St BOO  aoofi 

J   Hal 

xa  l>o&ac  )a8i/ao 



s»2   avrjT? 

•  Jlafloi;)-J:i             buv  e  lo  at:             e  aXcfalJteva 

Btcamas^isiTa  fins   ^baeariOTnc  Tsnlarf  p t  tn^^anirpe  :^0i"«ro£q  wona 

iJaA;£,    .{:■•-'■    -   ■^OBSii   aaxueaajixx-'  .'    >•      i      ■     j-ij-A   Ilia 

-■^laB'                                             aliavfl  ed  lltw  ,Baafeana  lEewoq  ea 

-  18  - 

settled  townships  which  cannot  finance  thie  equipment  them- 

The  Department  has  a  comprehensive  programme  of  post- 
war work.  Engineering  data  and  bridge  design  have  now 
advanced  to  the  stage  that  work  could  be  started  on  short 
notice  should  the  necessity  arise  to  provide  employment  for 
returning  war  veterans  or  those  presently  engaged  in  war 
industries.  Proposed  legislation  affecting  this  Department 
is  confined  to  minor  amendments  to  the  Highway  Improvement 
Act  and  the  Highway  Traffic  Act,  which  are  designed  to 
clarify  the  administration  of  certain  sections  of  both  Acts. 

The  Department  of  Public  Works  has  plans  prepared  and 
work  projected  for  a  programme  of  building  construction 
which  will  have  a  beneficial  and  far-reaching  effect,  in  that 
it  will  provide  nine  million  man-days*  work  throughout  the 
province.  The  amount  of  work  so  provided  will  apply  to  all 
branches  of  the  construction  industry,  including  not  only  the 
personnel  engaged  in,  or  directly  connected  with,  the  actual 
building  operations,  but  also  to  those  engaged  directly  and 
indirectly  in  the  production,  supply,  or  manufacture  of  the 
materials  and  other  equipment  and  furnishings  to  be  used. 
It  is  proposed  to  proceed  with  building  projects  urgently  re- 
quired to  fill  present  requirements,  as  soon  as  the  necessary 
men,  materials  and  equipment  can  be  obtainedo 

Electrical  energy  generated  and  purchased  by  the  Hydro 
Electric  Power  Commission  to  supply  the  Ontario  load  reached 
an  all-time  high  exceeding  twelve  billion  kilowatt  hours. 
All  the  demands  for  war  activities  in  Ontario  have  been  met, 
and  essential  domestic  and  mvmicipal  power  requirements  have 
suffered  no  shortage.  The  Ogokl  diversion  and  the  remedial 
weir  above  Niagara  Falls  continued  to  have  a  beneficial 

^  81  - 

-i^oq  to  901081^. 

lot  iamsz'^^'"'^'^ 


■    tawavfoiqaZ     ■"-^ 

5x10  ^'"■  ■••""' 

tadi  n 



»ri*  lo  »tvfoBt:jaspi  ". 
•  fieai 

X^Bnzeosa  &d:i'   sb  rtr; 

...    SxJil 



tfltJ'E  TBid 

CXlw  rioirfw 


,*affl  need  ©vs/l  oliaJx- 

-  19  - 

effect  upon  the  output  of  the  generating  stations  on  the 
Niagara  River,  and  the  new  plant  at  De  Cew  Falls  added 
Its  full  quota  to  the  power  resources  of  southern  Ontario. 

The  Commission  has  agreed,  as  trustee  for  the  Govern- 
ment, to  purchase  the  power  system  of  the  Northern  Ontario 
Power  Company,  Limited,  for  $12,500,000.   If  and  when  the 
necessary  legal  details  have  been  completed,  the  Commis- 
sion will  take  over  its  operation.   The  properties  include 
eight  Hydro  Electric  plants  with  an  installed  capacity  of 
66,840  horse  power,  739  miles  of  transmission  lines,  and 
157  miles  of  distribution  lines o  When  acquired,  the  pro- 
perties will  be  amalgamated  with  the  Abitibi  District  of 
the  Northern  Ontario  properties,  thus  eliminating  duplica- 
tion of  service  and  resulting  in  great  economies.  The 
acquisition  of  these  properties  will  also  enable  the  Com- 
mission to  extend  its  Hydro  rural  service  to  many  consximers 
in  the  areas  served  by  the  Coajjany.   It  will  further  allow 
the  Commission  to  reduce  the  cost  of  power  to  the  mines  in 
this  territory  from  $36o00  per  horse  power  to  the  price  re- 
cently approved  by  the  Government  to  all  mines  aerved  by 
the  Commission,  which  is  $27.50  per  horse  powero  The  new 
price  of  $27,50  per  horse  power  will  represent  a  great  sav- 
ing, which  will  encourage  development  in  hard-rock  mining 
in  that  area  in  the  immediate  post-war  era. 

Notwithstanding  the  restricted  supply  of  labour  and 
materials,  the  Commission  has  been  able  to  construct  four 
hundred  miles  of  rural  primary  line,  chiefly  short  exten- 
sions to  existing  lines,  as  compared  with  forty  miles  in 
1943.   Service  was  given  to  about  10,000  new  consumers, 
7,000  of  whom  received  service  from  lines  which  already 
existed.   The  Commission  is  projecting  plans  for  a  vigorous 

-  t 

.JX6     ,19V  •SflJtH 

«5i  •T.9lii»qpiq  erf: 

btm   ,  aeislX  aoi;  s :  <    c 

-«c  iuXd  aifilJ    ,c:eJ::tioqc 

erfT      .eoi-; 

DfdQ'L^  s^a  aax8exim.oj  e... 


:>t    .bcthnll    .T/XBcrfEoO  19^0*1 
>vc'  o:iBd-  XIlw  nois 

BeXio  vex 

vcf  be  i-i^neo 



ao  xaq 


""9    TflW- 


i0ot  totn: 


-0»t>:-'    *• 

fXl    BOlllT. 

fflOO    Bii     (BSXXX. 


,  nrm: 

.->   oi-  n^ris   5»w  e- 



•iioxnw    B^ 

90  trie; 



isXq  gi 

:;aiininoQ  oilT 


-  20  - 

five-year  post-war  rural  Hydro  programmeo 

The  average  power  sold  to  all  rural  consumers,  includ- 
ing war  industries  in  rural  areas,  increased  by  nearly 
fourteen  per  cent.  There  is  strong  evidence  everywhere  of 
a  keen  desire  to  use  more  electricity.  This  desire  has 
been  stimulated  by  the  new  uniform  rural  rate  structure. 
Ae  a  result  of  increased  use  and  the  lower  rates  incorporat- 
ed in  the  new  schedule,  the  average  cost  to  rural  consumers 
decreased  in  1944  from  2„6  to  about  2a3  cents  per  kilowatt 
hour  or  about  11  per  cent.  It  is'  the  purpose  of  the  commis- 
sion to  encourage  greater  consumption  by  rural  consumers, 
which  will  further  reduce  the  cost  of  power. 

The  Attorney  General  will  submit  several  measures  con- 
sidered to  be  in  the  public  interest.   Legislation  repealing 
The  Securities'  Act,  and  substituting  a  new  Act,  will  be 

At  the  last  Session  of  the  Assembly  a  Select  Committee 
was  appointed  with  instructions  to  study  the  Acts  governing 
the  holding  of  provincial  elections ,  with  a  view  to  their 
general  revision.  This  Committee  has  held  a  number  of  meet- 
ings during  the  recess,  and  has  given  careful  consideration 
to  the  Acts  referred  to  it.   The  Comiaittee  »s  report  will  be 
tabled.  Bills  revising  the  Active  Service  Election  Act, 
the  Voters*  Lists'  Act  and  the  Slection  Act  will  be  introduc- 

A  Royal  Commission  was  established  with  Y;ide  powers  to 
study  the  question  of  safety  in  public  halls.   The  report  of 
the  Commission  has  been  received,  and,  as  a  result,  legisla- 
tion will  be  submitted  which  will  require  public  halls  to 
maintain  certain  definite  standards  of  safety. 

The  Department  of  Planning  and  Development,  which  was 

-   OS   - 




i-0  2  lawoq  a^Bidva  s:  'I 

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lico  mail  n&zaaaaa. 

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lo  iioqai  erlT      .  • 

ot  wlLad  ailduq  orclugvi  11  in  ■yi'itmdsm  xw  aott 

«ij*»lBa  lo   •-•''•"  ■^~  ....-*.-. ^f  nlatTeo  xciBd-nlsm 

aBW  iialilw.  ,  JnamqoieveQ  t.  jexatoiB^aa  eriT 

-  SI  - 

created  last  year,  will  introduce  a  bill  dealing  with  con- 
servation and  flood  control  and  also  one  providing  for  town 
planning.   There  is  need  for  a  coD5)rehensive  and  effective 
solution  of  the  problem  of  flood  control,  especially  in 
certain  watersheds  in  Southern  Ontario.  The  Government 
recognizes  that  any  fully  effective  undertakings  designed 
to  control  floods  must  combine  the  .appropriate  engineering 
projects  with  a  broad  and  complete  programme  of  conserva- 
tion, restoration  and  development  of  the  natural  resources 
of  the  whole  watershed. 

Such  programmes  must  be  carried  out  with  the  full  co- 
operation and  agreement  of  the  various  groups  of  people 
residing  in  the  watershed.  The  main  responsibility  will 
necessarily  rest  with  the  mxinicipal  governments.   The  Con- 
servation and  Flood  Control  Bill  will,  therefore,  provide 
for  the  establishment  of  conservation  and  flood-control 
authorities,  to  be  appointed  by  the  municipalities  concerned. 

The  Government  recognizes  the  advisability  of  laying 
the  foundation  for  municipal  planning,  especially  to  enable 
municipalities  to  derive  the  fullest  advantage  from  post- 
war constructiono  and  also  to  enable  municipalities  and 
their  citizens  to  take  the  utmost  advantage  of  the  provisions 
of  The  National  Housing  Act.   The  Government  will  present  a 
town  and  regional  planning  bill  which  will  enable  municipali- 
ties to  carry  out  their  plans  effectively,  and  will  also  en- 
able a  group  of  municipalities  to  enter  into  a  joint  plan, 
where  they  have  common  planning  problems. 

The  Ontario  Civil  Service  has  been  assured  of  greatly 
improved  conditions  of  employment,  and  amendments  will  be 
introduced  to  The  Public  Service  Act.  May  I  take  this  oppor- 
tunity to  pay  a  tribute  to  the  splendid  work  done  by  the 
Civil  Servants  of  this  province  during  more  than  five  years 

-  IS  - 

raro.  ^Ib  bnB  lort  jvi«i 

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©iCToerr  to    -^-ucrr^i   BirciisT   arit   *o   InamesTajB   fsrrs  noiJaiOCTo 

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-^Boq  aortt  e^B;fnB'  j-vtiBb  oi   imitllBqiotaum 

has  e-v-  ,.,  baa  o^^....,^^. 

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«iXBXq,^ni;ot  ^  ctal  loiae  oi   e»l;rt£BqXai£ix;ffi  lo  quoi^  a  BlcfB 

,  >mT»r  ".-.  T."    ^:-»';"ctBXq   iI01IUP''>    "'"ail   Y®"^^    &"<»:'■» 

•%X*B9Ts  "io  6a^iiBa«  naecf  &mL  eoivaea  XXviO  «  T 

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-Toqgo  alii;}'   9>Ijb*  I  ^^^5     -^o'    --!•-•.-'    .-.rifrr^   ^-^a.  ^+   mo. 

exl*  Zd  9aob  alaow  cif)neXq8  e  oiijdiii  >  ^iiaui 

eiB9Y  ©vil  jOfidi-  eioia  sfilrci/fc  eoiiivoiq  Blrf*  5o  e^naviea  XXviO 

-  22  - 

of  war.  The  Queen »s  Park  War  Service  Guild  and  other  or- 
ganizations within  the  Civil  Service  also  deserve  great 
credit  for  what  they  have  done  to  assist  the  members  of  oup 
armed  forces  overseas. 

The  Government  is  greatly  concerned  about  the  delay  in 
the  calling  of  a  Domini on -Provincial  Conference  for  which 
it  has  been  pressing  for  considerably  more  than  a  year. 
With  brighter  hopes  of  victory  in  Europe,  the  need  for  such 
a  conference  becomes  increasingly  in5)erative,  and  the  Govern- 
ment has  again  asked  that  at  least  a  preliminary  meeting  be 
held  to  settle  the  basic  principles  upon  which  inter- 
governmental cooperation  must  rest  if  sQme  of  the  most 
important  plans  for  post-war  construction,  rehabilitation 
and  social  services  are  to  be  prepared  upon  a  workable  basis. 

The  public  accounts  for  the  year  ending  March  31st,  1944, 
have  been  issued,  and  estimates  for  the  coming  year  will  be 
placed  before  you* 

In  conclusion,  I  wish  to  express  the  hope  that  Divine 
Providence  may  so  guide  your  deliberations  that  your  v;ork 
may  promote  the  general  welfare  of  the  people  of  Ontario. 

His  Honour  was  then  pleased  to  retire. 

Prayers.  3:45  o» clock,  p.  m. 

■  MR.  SPEAKER:   I  have  received  from  His  Honour  a  copy  of 
his  speech.  Shall  I  read  it,  or  will  the  reading  be  dispensed 

Reading  dispensed  with. 

MR.  SPEAKER:  I  beg  to  inform  the  House  that  the  Clerk 
has  laid  upon  the  table  a  return  from  the  records  of  the  Gener- 
al Election  to  the  Legislative  Assetably  held  on  the  28th  day  of 
July  and  the  4th  day  of  August,  in  1943,  and  a  subsequent  by- 

ss  - 

"to  Toxiio  baa  bxusx.   eoiri&i^  tsw  :iiB'-i  a'n»eyp  rnif     ,  xijw  to 

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^'22  .  2-15-45. 

election  held  in  the  electoral  district  of  Haldimand -Norfolk 
on 'the  13th  and  20th  of  March,  in  1944,  showing: 

1.  The  number  of  votes  polled  for  each 

■  candidate  in  each  electoral  district  in  Tjfliich 
there  was  a  contest. 

2.  The  majority  whereby  each  successful 
candidate" was  returned. 

3.  The  total  number  of  votes  polled. 

4.  The  number  of  votes  remaining  unpolled. 

5.  The  number  of  names  on  the. polling  lists. 
5.  The  number  of  ballot  papers  sent  out  to 

•ach  polling  plac«o 

7.  The  used  ballot  papers, 

8.  The  unused  ballot  papers, 

9.  The  rejected  ballot  papers* 

10.  The  cancelled  ballot  papers, 

11.  The  declined  ballot  papers, 

12.  The  ballot  papers  taken  from  polling 

13.  Total  number  of  printed  ballots  not  dis- 
tributed to  D.R.O*s. 

14.  Total  number  of  ballot  papers  printed. 

15.  A  general  siimmary  of  votes  cast  in  each 
electoral  district. 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Introduction  of  bills. 

HON.  LESLIE  E.  BLACK7JELL  (Attorney  General):  Mr. 
Speaker,  I  move,  seconded  by  the  Provincial  Treasurer  (Mr, 
Frost),  that  leave  be  given  to  introduce  a  bill  intituled, 
"An  Act  to  provide  for  the  voting  of  Active  Service  voters 
at  a  general  election  of  the  Assembly",  and. that  the  sam« 
be  now  read  for  the  first  time. 


-  sa  - 

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-  24  -  2-15-45. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time. 

HON.  GEORGE  A,  DREW  (Prime  Minister) :   Mro  Speaker,  I 
beg  to  move,  seconded  by  Mr.  Frost,  that  the  Speech  of  the 
Honourable  the  Lieutenant  Governor  be  taken  into  considera- 
tion on  Tuesday  next. 

Motion  agreed  to, 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Mr.  Speaker,  I 
move,  seconded  by  Mro  Blackwell,  that  the  S-elect  Standing 
Committees  of  this  House  tor   the  present  Session  be  appointed 
for  the  following  purposes: 

1.  Privileges  and  Elections 

2.  On  Education 

3.  On  Miscellaneous  Private  Bills 

4.  On  Standing  Orders 

5.  On  Public  Accounts 

6.  On  Printing 

7.  On  Municipal  Law 

8.  On  Legal  Bills 

9.  On  Agriculture  and  Colonization 
10*  On  Fish  and  Gam* 

11.  On  Labour 

Said  Committees  shall  severally  be  empowered  to 
examine  and  enquire  into  all  such  matters  and  things  as  shalX 
be  referred  to  them  by  the  House,  and  to  report  from  time  to 
time  their  observations  and  opinions  thereon,  with  power  to 
send  for  persons,  papers  and  records,. 

Motion  agreed  to. 

HON.  GEORGE  H.  DUNBAR  (Provincial  Secretary) :  Mr« 
Speaker,  I  wish  to  table  a  copy  of  the  Public  Accounts  for 
the  Province  of  Ontario  for  the  year  ended  March  31,  1944. 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister) :  Mr.  Speaker, ■ 

I    ^iB^BaqB  .  {i»is,]:niM  wt . 

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jie3(3aq3   .iM     :  (la^elniM  amli^i)   ISflG  ,A  aSB 

-  E5  -  2-15 -45 » 

before  moving  the  adjournment  of  the  House  I  beli«ve  that  it 
has  been  customary  for  the  last  few  years  to  make  some  com- 
ment about  absentees  from  the  Chanfcer  because  of  military 
service,  and  I  loiow  that  each  one  of  us  hopes  that  during 
the  course  of  the  Session  the  two  members  who  are  now  on 
active  service  will  be  back  with  us.  I  refer  to  the  hono 
member  for  Riverdale  (Mr.  7/ismer),  who  is  overseas,  and  also 
to  the  hon.  member  for  Duffer in -Simcoe  {Mr.  Downer),  who  is 
likewise  serving  abroad  from  Canada,, 

I  feel  sure  we  all  hope  that  similar  arrangements  to 
those  which  were  made  last  year  will  be  made  again,  to  make 
it  possible  for  them  to  attend  for  the  greater  part  of  this 

I  do  want,  personally,  and  I  feel  on  behalf  of  the 
members  of  both  sides  of  the  Legislature,  without  regard  to 
any  other  differences  of  opinion,  to  express  my  regret  at 
the  absence  of  the  hon.  Minister  of  Agriculture  (Mr.  Kennedy) , 
who  unfortunately  is  still  in  the  hospital,  but  who  is  recover- 
ing rapidly,  and  I  feel  sure  will  be  with  us  before  the  end  of 
the  Session. 

I  think  perhaps  it  is  worthy  of  comment  that  the  Guard 
of  Honour  which  was  here  in  this  Legislative  Chamber  to-day  is 
unique,  to  this  extent,  insofar  as  these  Sessions  are  concerned, 
in  the  fact  that  every  one  of  those  men  has  seen  active  service. 
They  are  men  who,  for  one  reason  or  another,  have  seen  active 
service  and  are  here  on  a  day  when  the  Canadian  troops  have 
reached  the  Rhine.   I  think  perhaps  it  may  be  an  encouraging 
symbolism  that  we  should  see  these  men  here  who  themselves 
have  engaged  in  active  service.  And,  without  enlarging  in  any 
way  upon  that  aspect  of  the  news  which  we  have  read  to-day,  I 
know  that  in  the  hearts  of  many  of  the  members  here  there  will 

-  es  - 

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-  £6  -  2-15 -45  <. 

be  cause  for  rejoicing  that  something  which  but  a  con^iarative- 
ly  short  time  ago  would  have  seemed  so  unlikely,  has  occurred, 
—  the  arrival  of  our  troops  at  that  historic  German  line  of 
defence,  —which  we  hope  indicates  the  end  of  the  European 
hostilities  within  a  reasonable  period. 

I  will  not  add  anything  more  to  my  remarks  because 
there  will  be  ample  opportunity  to  speak  on  any  of  the  sub- 
jects connected  with  legislation,  except  to  say  that  we  do  ex- 
tend our  sjmipathies  on  behalf  of  the  whole  House  to  any  who 
have  felt  the  full  impact  of  war. 

There  may  be  some  other  members  who  wish  to  speak  be- 
fore I  move  the  adjournmento 

MR.  E.  B.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition):  Mr, 
Speaker,  I  would  like  to  express  our  very  sincere  regret  that 
the  hon.  Minister  of  Agriculture  (Mr.  Kennedy)  is  absent  be- 
cause of  illness.  Itvms  a  cause  of  regret  to  us  last  year 
that  he  had  the  misfortune  to  be  absent  for  much  of  the  Session, 
and  we  all  join  in  extending  to  him  best  wishes  for  his  early 

I  thinkj  also,  the  members  of  the  House  should  con- 
gratulate themselves  on  the  excellent  health  and  mortality 
record  during  the  past  year,.  This  is  one  occasion  when  we  do 
not  need  to  mourn  the  loss  of  any  member  of  the  House. 

I  join  with  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  in  expressing  the 
hope  that  the  two  honourable  and  gallant  members  who  are  ab- 
sent on  active  service  will  find  it  possible  to  join  us  at 
some  later  stage  in  this  Session,  and  in  the  hope,  also,  that 
they  will  be  restored  to  civil  life  at  an  early  date  by  the 
great  advances  of  the  armies  of  the  United  Nations  which  we 
are  now  witnessing  overseas, 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Mr.  Speaker,  I 

move  the  adjournment  of  the  House. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  the  House  adjourned  at  3:55,  p.m. 

►  as  - 


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-  27  - 


Toronto,   Ontario, 

Friday,   February  16,   1945* 

SPEAKER:  Honoiirable  William  J«  Stewart,  C.B6E0 

The  House  met  at  3  o'clock* 


MR,  SPEAKER:   Presenting  petitions* 

Reading  and  receiving  petitions. 

Reports  by  committees,- 


HON.  LESLIE  E.  BLACKWELL  (Attorney  General):  Mr» 
Speaker,  as  Chairman  of  the  Select  Committee  of  the  Legis- 
lature appointed  to  consider  the  Active  Service  Election 
Act,  the  Voters'  List  Act  and  the  Election  Act,  I  have 
pleasure  in  reporting  to  the  Legislature  that  the  Gommi'ttee 
has  concluded  its  deliberations  and  is  now  in  a  position  to 
report,  -  not  only  report,  but  report  unanimously,  -  to  this 
Legislature,  and  I  have  pleasure  in  tabling  the  report. 

While  I  am  on  my  feet,  I  woxild  like  to  avail  myself, 
Mr,  Si)eaker,  of  this  opportunity  of  making  one  or  two  obser- 
vations about  the  working  of  the  Committee.   I  want  to  take 
this  occasion,  as  Chairman,  of  expressing  my  personal 
appreciation,  as  such,  of  the  objective  efforts  made  by 
every  member  of  that  Committee,  regardless  of  the  several 
party  affiliations,  to  do  a  good  job  on  these  statutes, 
and  I  can  fairly  say  through  all  the  sittings  of  the 

-  TS  - 

Y    A    a 

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-8X8*  J  ••^iTxxar  acntBdO  b«   ,n*:2J[«9q8 

£toito«I?r  a  -^fciaflDO  oi   baintcaaB  hiatal 

••illiimiioa  •d^   iad^   •'sat a  a  aJ;  rufM^Xq 

^.j©i  •!  ItfjB*  8*»Iq  •vari  I  boM   ,#rtir#»lBJ:a«d 

JjBisvee  ©d^  to  aaeliiBsai   ,eei'^it  tid^f  lo  lectaaci  y^ov® 

,aa*i/*flJ3  ae^^rfd'  rfo  cfo^  -^  o6  oJ    janoxtntlxi-^B  r*iBc 

©d*  lo  agiii^  lis  d^oirid-  ysb  Y-t^iiJt  ii&o 

-  28  -  2^16-45. 

Mr.  Blackwell. 

Coimaittee  the  attitude  of  every  member  of  the  Committee  was 
characterized  by  the  desire  to  make  a  contribution  to  the 
Committee,  and  the  toleration  and  forbearance  toward  the 
Chairman  and  the  other  members  thereof.  This  morning,  when 
the  Committee  finalized  its  report,  I  at  that  time  took  the 
liberty  of  making  what  might  be  termed  an  impertinent  sugges- 
tion, and  that  was  that  the  several  members  of  the  Committee 
representing,  as  they  did,  all  the  political  parties  repres- 
ented in  this  Legislature,  might  indicate  to  the  members  of 
thie  respective  parties  the  desirability  of  considering  re- 
fraining from  debating  the  provisions  of  the  report,  in  view 
of  the  fact  that  it  is  anticipated  that  very  shortly  the 
Government  will  intjil*^duce  legislation  ii^ich  will  at  least 
follow  the  report  approximately,  and  that  it  might  save 
duplication  of  debate  if  the  bills  were  debated  with  refer- 
ence to  the  report  at  the  time  they  come  up  for  their  respect- 
ive readings.  That,  of  course,  is  merely  a  suggestion  which 
I  believe  met  with  the  approval  of  the  different  members  of 
the  Committee.   It  is,  of  course,  open  to  any  member  of  this 
House  to  follow  whatever  may  be  his  opinion  as  to  dealing 
with  the  rep or to 

I  would  like  to  make  one  final  observation  about  the 
report,  that  although  I  have  tabled  it  in  advance  of  legisla- 
tion being  introduced,  a  copy  of  the  report  will  find  its 
place  on  the  desk  of  every  member  of  the  Legislatxireo 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Mot ions » 

Introduction  of  bills. 

Orders  of  the  Day. 

MR.  NELSON  ALLES  (North  Essex):  Mr.  Speaker,  I  rise 
on  a  point  of  privilege  to  explain  my  new  position  in  the 
House  and  to  clear  up  any  misunderstanding  there  might  be 


.llQIi  ' 

-  as  - 

83W    99^S'JUar 

•sit  O^ 
exit  Bis 


w»i\         .    tioqe 

-lolei  rfJiw  &e;f/<  isv  aiiicf  »• 



-i.  -JVSB 


'9b  laoit  3i2  2jaJbB<cl 
.. .~fl1  ed*  Tco 

"rroqp".  t 

,.jjj»  Tto   nolJ-BoiXqufi 

9£(;t'  o;}'  aoixe 

JTC  ©ri 

auaoO  ttsit 

I*  I 

.0  aif 
aaXu  I    ,'  _  (lees:  TiA   .AM 

ariif    -  ■■     -oiJleoq  w-^ii  -^  i:iq  l'  ^  B  flo 

29  -  2-16-45. 

Mr.   Alles. 

about  ito 

As  I  said  in  my  public  statement  some  time   ago,    I 
am  ready  and  willing  to  cooperate  with  any  members  of  any 
political  party  or  partieis  to  bring  about  needed  legislation 
at  this  time. 

My  own  thinking  has  followed  the  thinking  of  my  own 
riding  and  has  reflected  a  trend  there  which  I  belieTe  to 
be  in  miniature  the  trend  of  the  whole  province  and  possibly 
the  whole  country. 

It  has  been  indicated  that  we  shall  take  up  serious- 
ly in  this  session  plans  for  the  post-war  era,  I  know  in  my 
own  riding  that  all  the  people  are  looking  for  reform  legis- 
lation to  ensxire  their  safety  and  seciirity  in  the  future 
and  to  give  them  and  their  children  a  little  more  of  the 
comfort,  security  and  ease  that  goes  with  gracious  living. 

I  know  these  people  are  afraid  that  we  cannot  get  to- 
gether on  specific  issues;  I  know  they  are  afraid  of  political 
manoeuvering  and  strategy  occupying  our  thoughts  when  we 
should  be  concentrating  on  achieving  the  things  that  will  en- 
STire  their  future. 

They  are  afraid  that  we  shall  be  the  exponents  of 
various  political  idealogies  first  and  the  representatives  of 
the  people  second,  -for  the  man  in  the  street  is  neither  a 
capitalist  or  a  socialist,  and  is  becoming  very  cynical. 
What  he  wants  is  teamwork  that  cuts  across  all  political 
parties, -what  I  have  referred  to  as  non-partisan  political 

And  as  for  our  various  political  philosophies,  (and 
I  might  say  that  what  was  new  a  year  ago  is  old  to-day, )  the 
trend  is  definitely  towards  freer  thinking,  without  regard  to 
the  old  party  lines. 

a  sJ" 

I    ,0^0  mii}  dmoa  ^^aiao^ra;?  t  6l£s  i  ^A 

XI3A  'io  aastlffiaffi  yj-  ,■   •^b-  'iijfldi  ras 

.amljr  BlrU  ia 
iJwc  >[:n  1  •jod  ;sax.^ald^  who  yM 

<£  btiB  •oavroiq  eiorfw  oxiJ   lo  ^  tdr  soud-BiniJt  0I  wf 

,TT;tr;:co   elojrtir  »rf^ 

^!  ni  w  Bie  iflw-4-8'.  aol  bxi:  iB8B3  ex  x-t 

•Xl/lJirt    8""*     ■    '  uTl/BIIQ    OJ     lUJia'Bl 

eriJ  ^o  anojB  9.'  &  nBrrAX-  avJta  ©^  ftfla 

.S^lviX  awolc.         ...rJtw  esos  cfBff*  -ssbq  frcs  y*ii;;neB  --> 

-oi'   ^93  4*001180   aw  *  .~t1b   •Ji.j3   axqosq  asaoj  v^ooa.  * 

iBOi^XXoq    lo    JilBllB    BIB    ^9tii    WOtE'  O    ICBd^-BS 

•w  nerfw  'Ci/oco  ysbJ^btIb   brro  ^nit?rfriTBamm 

-n©  IX^  rf'Biij    ti^iiAu-    siiv  no  ^i-xjajnec 

to   R;tn9nf>trx0    srft  ©cf  LLbAz   bti  isrit  itlattB  ata  vefpr 
T.i    if:?.. ,  ..jjiiae.  ■OB  Jii  >i.Bei»i   iBoi;Mioq    ::iroXiBT 

f  -9B  eXqoe 

.Icstrrv,  ^    _.    jaXXf 

iJBOx?iJ.oq  xiB  at-  .,aj   iiaowiaBeu    ai   etnBW  eil  JBXi* 

lB9i*iIoq  a&Blt-:  ibi  eved  »-,Bei^Bq 

t  i&ldqoBoltiiq  iBOlilloq  amoiia-  x  bb  bnA 

er  vfe-oi-  fiXo   Bi   oss  imqx  b  wexr  bbw  tadm  tadi  x^^   id^lm  I 

,a&ail  x^'^^^l  ^-^ 

-  30  ^  2-16-45. 

MTo  Alles, 

The  theme  song  of  to-day  is  "Don*t  Fence  Me  In." 

So  I  have  placed  myself  in  a  position  where  I  can 
perhaps  point  out  a  trend  and   say  that  people  want  cooperation 
among  all  of  us  for  progressive  legislation  and  not  propaganda 
speeches  or  bickering  over  past  issues. 

I  reiterate  that  I  personally  have  no  axe  to  grind  and 
am  looking  toward  the  future  rather  than  the  past,  and  will  co- 
operate to  bring  about  the  best  aims  that  we  are  all  here  to 

MR.  LESLIE  HAircOCK  (South  Wellington) :   Mr,  Speaker, 
I  rise  to  a  matter  of  public  interest,  in  view  of  the  fact 
that  I  have  recently  severed  my  connection  with  our  CCF  Party, 
and  am  continuing  for  the  balance  of  this  Legislature  as  an. 
independent,  some  statement  is  due  this  House,  giving  the 
reasons  for  my  action. 

Briefly,  the  major  cause  of  my  defection  is  the 
Isolationist  Party  policy  of  the  CCF.  A  British  statesman  has 
rightly  said  that  when  three  or  more  major  parties  emerge  in  a 
parliamentary  democracy,  coalitions  are  the  order  of  the  day. 
It  is  obvious  that  unless  there  are  coalitions  there  cannot  be 
stable  government. 

The  pronouncements  of  the  leaders  of  my  former  party 
in  this  connection  have  invariably  been  that  they  wish  to  see 
a  coalition  of  reactionary  forces,  coupled  with  the  statement 
t^at  in  their  opinion  there  is  no  difference  between  the  two 
old  parties,  I  cannot  accept  this  view  that  there  is  no  dif- 
ference between  the  party  to  my  left  and  the  party  of  the 
hon.  member  for  Elgin  (Mr.  Hepbiirn).   In  my  view  that  policy  is 
not  in  the  best  interests  of  the  province  oi"  the  nation,  either 
at  this  time  or  in  the  early  post-war  period. 

I  continued  with  the  party  in  the  hope  that  a  change  of 

•  £*-':  -  OS  - 


iX0O  I  arceilw  aoittwiq,  a  nx  llasYQ  6easXq  bybl 
xr:i*«i9qooo   JnjBW  aXqoe     +  '^t  Y*b   5nfi  Ansa.     .  'p-fr-fr  -'ro-f^^g 

BJ^caaaqoiq  ;roxi  bna  iioi;tfllBxa8X  97 tzt^'x^^oiq  lot  b  ^aociB 

.sdcraat:  ^Rsq  ^aro  s^X7d:iol:(f  «o  saxfoaaqe 
hOB  br.^^.j    .i  axA  oa  av  idq  I  ifar^-^    ^*.'>T:8:J'iai  I 

-00  II Jtw  6na    ,4'«*q  84*  n*  J    biawot  sfliaiool  a* 

o^  arcaxi  lliB  ana  aw  ^adJ-  ataia  ^aacf  a^  0^  9t&t9(iQ 

(lasLsaqe   .IM     :  (nod-siSiXXaW  r  Li   .AM 

i^oafi  eriJ   "^o  wair  uI      .laaiai-nl  t.  i9ttam 

rcB  CB  •<Xi/;rsX8X8«J[  sXii^r  )o  •onalsii  9tit  i[ol  ^ii/nx^noa  mja  bam 
9At  sfllT2;a   <  aauoH  airier  9ub  Bt  ta9m9$a^B  aiooe   .^nadcerre 

ad*  al  noi^oa^afi  \fiL  I0   ss  laai  9di    .x^^laXiH 

s  ux  8^13219  aexJTBq  io^.aQi  azojiU  to   aaxiiw    ..laav  j£i:j   i^i^s  ^xjiigxi 

,X^  ^^^  ^o  icaMo  ad^f   ena  ^xoBioomob  ^lad-aamaXXaaq 

ad  ;tonaao  siodi  bjcoX^XXboo  aTt  1^  aaaXxn;  iBdt  zaotrdo  el  ^^t-I 

.faaouiasvcs  eiaajs 
^^laq  rtefino'5  ^  Tto  artejbaaX  Qd4  l:o  B^nsasc 

aas   of  dstv  ro^t  f'^di  rteatf  -rrdBltavai.  ovsd  aotfoaanoo  aid*  ajt 

dT.sci;;jsj£.     eaj  a^'xw  Dsxqjjoo    ^bsoioa  ^jl^osqi   10  0oxjxxjboo  a 

owj    ailJ^  xiaewiTad  aonanalli  .i  arcad*  aoXalqo  itedit  at  iBtf^ 

-llfi  on 'Bi   sierfi-  tflrfi-  welv  air^l  ^creooB  tonnao  I      .ssUiacr  Mo 

ariJ"   to   ■'^S'-LBq  a-iJ    isiic  jis.  :jasj3a   ecpnaiel: 

ai  voiXoq  tadJt  weir  -siis  al     .  (flixfcfqeH   .iM)   algXa  aol   aedme;.:   .nod 

ledfi:^    .rtotd-arr  srfl  io   aDniroid  edt  ^o   a^fneisonl    ^feed  edt  ni   ton 

aiwxiaq  'ijsw-aaoq  TCixss  9iiJ  xri   'lo   aiax-  ;      e 

lo  asrxado  a  *adt  aqjod  t  Y^^tSQ  ®d*  dJlw  fiai/fll^rtoo  I 

-  31  -  2-16-45. 

Mr.  Hancock. 

policy  toward  democratic  coalition  would  finally  emerge,  but 
to  date  of  my  resignation  all  signs  indicated  that  CCF  party 
leaders  regard  the  isolationist  plank  as  unchangeable.  The 
effect  of  this  policy  in  the  ranks  of  organized  labour  is 
particularly  to  be  regretted.   For  these  reasons  I  am  no 
longer  connected  with  the  party* 

The  honourable  the  Leader  of  the  Opposition  stated 
only  recently  in  Guelph  that  his  party  desires  to  cooperate 
with  the  spontaneous  peoples'  movements  now  rising  in  various 
parts  of  Europe.  May  I  remind  him  that  these  movements  are, 
in  the  main,  democratic  coalitions  in  which  people  of  the  same 
political  faith  as  the  hon.  members  for  Bellwoods  and  St* 
Andrews  are  cooperating* 

In  conclusion,  Mr.  Speaker^  may  I  say  that  the  position 
I  am  taking  has  been  arrived  at  only  after  mature  thought,  I 
shall  be  only  too  glad  to  discuss  these  and  similar  problems 
with  any  member  of  this  House  at  any  time,  and  there  are  no 
priorities;  all  are  equally  welcome.  I  have  changed  my  seat,  '*' 
but  not  my  purpose,  which  is  the  same  to-day  as  it  was  the  day 
I  accepted  the  nomination  to  run  as  a  provincial  candidate  for 
Wellington  South,  -  to  cooperate  with  all  who  will  work  for 
the  freedom  and  welfare  of  the  common  man. 

MR.  SPEAiCER:   Orders  of  the  Bay. 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister)?  MTo  Speaker,  I 
had  intended  to  proceed  with  the  second  reading  of  the  bill 
which  is  on  the  Order  Paper,  but  by  reason  of  something  which 
has  arisen  I  do  not  propose  to  call  the  Orders  of  the  Day« 
Unless  there  is  something  further,  I  move  the  adjournment  of 
the  Hoxise« 

MR.  E.  B.  JOLLIEFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition):  Would 
the  hon.  Prime  Minister  (Mro  Drew)  be  good  enough  to  indicate 



ft'-fT         .  OCv'ffi^T.-,-? 

^c  :AnBLa   izinoztBloei    at'.t  fiiB^e-r   a^sbfldl 

0  9119 

•  J'arr»qooo  oif  aert:  xiqXeiJ'C  rrx 

scrolTBT  *w   ^    i8ii  won  a^aoiBSTOiB     ^^^.jeq  »i    -   -^-rffrr^   Arr- 

ainsa  •ifi^  to  .  at 

13  l>aA  Bf''* '*" '" ''"'^  ♦<  fTr   =?'f»ffijiaci 


♦  aaxJjaidqooo   ttia  awaa&iiA 

aoiJl3oq  sxi;?   d-Brij   t^bb  I  x,Bai   ^aeaLaeqa  :oo  oI 

I^iioiit  eautam  ioJI'b   ^^^w  is  6ov1yib  .-'^^"^'  ='  ft   ■■^'«   ' 

■sal  talJuni  .^  b&l  ^d  XiaiiB 

3aB   9a©a;J  bna   «amJt*  y^^  ^b  'eeifoR  ej  .  iw 

,     ^.rasa  ^•-    >-        r'-o   aviid  I        —-(.-..-  a   jBel^-i"--^ '"--^ 

XAb  9d^  a«w  ;^X  an  x^'^^^  bjobz  w   tOb' 

%o\  €»*B&  3  e«  .'  aoltenlMoa  edt  fce^fqaoojs  I 

9  edi  to  eojBlXav  93^1  ed^ 

:'■?    to   aiei:  . 

Xixd  9Ai  '10  gnl6fl9i 

::   *-*ri  jT 

J&xJ    *  r: 



3il;h[0l  ;%ali  ex   arsiU  aaeXrn 

.eaifoH  edS 

stf  {weia  oOM)   Tei-aXfli!-  .aod  eri* 

-  32  -  2-16-45o 

what  we  will  likely  be  doing  on  Monday.   I  believe  it  was 
decided  to  go  on  with  the  Speech  from  the  Throne  on  Tuesday. 
I  presiime  there  will  be  other  business  for  us  on  Monday. 

HON.  GEOBGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Yes.   As  I 
indicated,  the  intention  was  to  proceed  with  this  bill  this 
afternoon,  but  my  hon.  friend  has  raised  a  question  which 
is  very  proper,  so  we  will  not  proceed  with  it  to-day,  but 
will  proceed  with  the  passage  of  the  Act  on  Monday,  and 
there  will  be  other  bills  introduced  at  that  time.  The  motion 
I  made  yesterday  was  that  we  proceed  with  the  Speech  from  the 
Throne  on  Tuesday. 

Mr.  Speaker,  I  move  the  House  do  now  adjourn. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  the  House  adjourned  at  3:E0,  p.m. 

QjBV  tJL  svallacf  I     .y^baoli  ao  B^loJb  ecf  xl9:ilL  XlJtw  ev  tasim 

I   a;  re^eiuiM  emtil)   WSHa   .A  aci. 

aiu..  .  IV  fi^e  .t   a  aw  rulfnp!. 

dotiiv  aoXs&Bi>p  a  bealBa  ::  fao^niQSi.o 

Xi^b-ct  ii.  ditw  bBBOOiq  ion  '    tieqotrq  yrcav  Bi 

Mt^  •01^  rfoeoqS  dri*  rfJxw  6««r  YiJaMeJae^   ©fisci  I 

^8  von  o6  MSi/oIi  BdS  aror 

-  33  - 


Toronto,   Ontario, 

Monday,   February  19,   1945, 

SPEAKER:     Honourable  William  J.   Stewart,   C.B.E. 

The  House  met  at  3  o'clock. 

Prayers . 

MR.    SPEAKER:      Presenting  petitions » 

Reading  and  receiving  petitions. 

THE  CLERK  OF  fflE  HOUSE:      The  following  petitions 
were  read  and  received: 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  Town  of  Barrie,  praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  Petitioners  to  pur- 
chase the  Barrie  Arena  from  the  Barrie  Agricultural  Arena, 
Limited,    and  to   issue  debentures  of  $30,000,000  in  connec- 
tion therewith. 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Welland,   praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  validating  an  agreement  between  the 
Petitioners  and  the  Erie  Coach  Lines,   Limited,   providing 
for  one  exclusive  franchise  to  the   said  Erie  Coach  Lines, 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Ottawa,   praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  a  change  in  the   constitu- 
tion of   the  Board  of  Governors  of  the  Royal  Ottawa  Sanatorium. 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Woodstock,   praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  validating  a  by-law  and   agreement  to 
confer  an  exclusive   ten-year  franchise  for  the  operation 
of  buses  made  between  the  Corporation  and  the  Bluebird 

-  cs  « 

1     I     H     T 

«i-i«w©;f8   .t  mflilllW  alcfB^i/oflDH     ;fIS[:iA.5I^ 

.aloolo'o  5  Jfl  4-effl  eauoH  sxlT 

.sac.LitiJGq  .     iG'^T'T      ■  h:::.-.^'i<T?-    .am 

.anoj  aoo^c  6tiB  auifvdaH 

:oevx30d'x  una  DSi&'i  snsw 
Sflix*'^^   ^elTiflhl  lo  nwoT  ail*  lo  noUaaoqaoO  edLt  10 

-TCiTcr  o:f   aianoJ-J-MsT    aril  ^ntxi  5   aaaar  Y'8'ffl  *3-^   ^^  i'firi* 

,*fioiA  ijS'XifJxifSi.ia-i  9X1X34  3^ J  ifloai  &a9iA  diiifta  enj  eseiio 
-o»xi  000,000,OSt  to  8e  ieb  auasX  o*  ^xia    ^beilniU 

Sfli^Baq    ,6xi«lieS  lo  ^^-^  "oio'-ic;^  sua   t^ 

9di  iiaev^scf  ^asaaert^  iie  ;da.limbtJjiv  tsBq  '^^ab  ^oA  xu  imtit 

8nx._.  -.,    ,-,. .^    ,>^..xj  jlOfloO  aJtrta  ^-^t  ftnn  nTBaolilie^L 

,«enxj  riofloo  dttZ  i>i«8   »dt  ot  aalrioxiaol  dvXa;/loxe  eno  aol 

SniYJ8i<I   ,awB**0  lo  x*-tO  »rf^  ^<^  -^-^qioO  er[;f  10 

"Utttsaoo  9dt  r  ^rio  a  ^atstioa^uA  aaaq  -^floi  JoA  oa  tBdt 

^mutxo^MsiAQ  swB^d"0  Xaxofl  ariJ  lo  aionievox)  lo  6iboS  eri;f   lo  nol* 
^Jt^iB'Iq    ,2ioo*Bi>ooW  lo  \    ..  v>   .arid'   lo  nol^raioq'ioD   exW   10 

0*  ^namaoosB   fixiA  wBl-'^^cr  a  ani^aJb^lBT  eoBq  ^caiB  *aA  as  iadt 

oo±*Baaqo  ad*  lol  eairionail  xaaY-nad-  avlaiJloxa  xib  Tielnoo 

Midai/IS  exl*  fina  noii-aaoqnoO  ed&  aeavted  ebi^  aaaad  lo 

-  34  -  2-19-45. 


Coacli  Lines, 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Peterborough,  pray- 
ing that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  establishment  of  a 
Civic  Hospital  and  the  issue  of  debentures  to  the  amount  of 
$600,000,00  in  connection  therewith. 

Of  the  Incorporated  Synod  of  the  Diocese  of  Niagara, 
praying  that  an  Act  may  pass  extending  the  authority  of  the 
Petitioners  in  the  matter  of  the  investment  of  the  general 
trust  funds. 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Kingston,  praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  establishment  of  a  Com- 
munity Centre  and  a  variation  in  the  terms  of  a  contract  for 
rental  and  sale  of  property  to  Hiedel  Bros,,  Limited. 

Of  the  Evangelical  Lutheran  seminary  of  Canada,  pray- 
ing that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  an  increase  in  the  nxjmber 
of  members  of  the  Board  of  the  Seminary  and  an  extension  of 
the  powers  of  the  Board  to  hold  real  and  personal  property. 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  St.  Thomas,  praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  said  Corporation  to  estab- 
lish or  acquire  an  airport,  to  close  certain  streets,  and  for 
other  p\UT?oses. 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Port  Arthur,  praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  issue  of  debentures  to  the 
amount  of  $175,000,00  to  aid  in  financing  an  extension  to  the 
Greneral  Hospital  of  Port  Arthxir. 

Of  the  Sacred  Heart  College  of  Sudbury,  praying  that  an 
Act  may  pass  raising  the  College  to  the  status  of  a  University 
to  be  known  as  the  University  of  Sudbury. 

Of  William  A*  Armstrong,  Harold  J,  Badden,  E.  Roy 
Butlet,  et  al,,  praying  that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the 
incorporation  of  a  Club  to  be  known  as  the  Kingsboro  Club  and  to 



.esflti  rtoaoO 


^T^.i^    t-   i7  > 


^  !  -•■  ■-  ■'^  .  r 

.afimiTt   ;J^e 

~iaoO  «.  lo  ttamaielLdE'' 
iQ'i  iainiaoo  a  to  aotad^ 
;alJ   ,  •  at 
-■^atq   ,«6aaB0  lo  ^''^-n-t^BaS  ^^" 
i«cfflu/fl  a:'  teaoT 

.IFfiaqoTq  lisiiuaxoii  jjcu  x*ai  i>Xoii 

•^  T»    fti^ 

■^rsa  to  a  latnai 

aaaq  Y^^in  ;^' 

0    en? 

■:X£   lifi   3' ..     ,  '  ;: 


00.000, a?i$ 



Xi"iai9virtU  a  to   zu^ata  odi  ot  e^elloO  erIJ  aotalai  aaaq  ysoi.^oA 

TtoH   .a   ,aai)i)Bci  ai^i  , 3x101  jseia   .a  jiaxiiifc 

en':f  31:  ,  tuB  aaaq  -^aa  ^oA  xxa  4'ad;t  s^-^'^^q  «*^^ 

-  34  -  2-19-45. 

borrow  money  and  purchase  property  for  the  purposes  of  the 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  Township  of  Crowland,  pray- 
ing that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  Petitioners  to  make 
a  grant  of  $10,000.00  out  of  its  surplus  funds  to  the  Wellcuad- 
Crowland  Health  and  Recreational  Centre. 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Toronto,  praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  said  Corporation  to 
establish  and  appoint  a  permanent  Planning  Board* 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Toronto,  praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  Corporation  to  pass  by- 
lavs  for  slum  clearance  and  low  housing  projects,  to  pay 
certain  debenture  interest  in  funds  of  the  United  states  or 
Canada  and  for-  other  piirposes. 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  Village  of  Swansea,  praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  said  Corporation  to  pur- 
chase a  certain  water  main  on  Ellis  Avenue  from  the  City  of 
Toronto  and  to  purchase  certain  waterworks  plant  from  the 
Township  of  York. 

MR.  SPEAKER:  Presenting  reports  by  committees. 


HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Moved  by  myself, 
seconded  by  Mr.  Frost  (Provincial  Treasurer),  "That  during  the 
present  Session  of  the  Legislative  Assembly  provision  be  made 
for  the  taking  of  stenographic  reports  of  debates  and  speeches, 
and  to  that  end  that  the  Honourable  the  Provincial  Treasurer  be 
authorized  to  employ  the  necessary  stenographers  at  such  rates 
of  compensation  as  may  be  agreed  to  by  him,  copies  of  the  said  ' 
stenographic  reports  to  be  supplied  to  the  leaders  of  the 
various  parties  aj'epresented  in  the  House,  to  the  Clerk  of  the 
House  and  to  the  Legislative  Library." 


-   ^   - 

odi  lo  aezoqxtsq  edi   lot  xtidqoiq  enado'Cfq  baa  Y®fio«[  wofLod 

-■^•iq   ,ftaslirr  aioqicoo  ofi" 

-JboaXIsW  exit  -^   .■?."-'>  a;^^  -v^  ^^.^  00.000,01;:  -- 

Sflitfliq  stocrroO  ariir  10 

.AtsoS  scxxxoBii  }0«xxaara0g  «  ^nJtoqqA  JbiXA  dtlltfft^Bo 

-ycf  S80q  oJ  nolJ«au>i'if -  ,  ujj4»   esjsq  ^jbb  joik  xiiB  i^at 

XBq  ot   ,a^oetoiq  snXE^  ^  aons<z»aXa  ou/It  toI  svaI 

10  ••;»flJa  &©;tidU  erf:r  lo  aJbfli;?  nl  taoie^ni.   o-rifcf-necfaJb  nlB:}'TeQ 

.B&aoqouq  aaaic  aoi  i^m)  aa^iiB'^j 
3flJr?«Tcq   ,«aBn«Wci  lo  e^BXiiV 
-liJq  ct   BOt&anrnTTCi^  iiaa  srf*   nr  i   asjB<T  vam  ■    fadt 

wl?  3lq  t^liovYdd-fiv  fllfl;>^iao  eeflrfoii  ixiB  otnoioT 

•&BJB  8tf  aole^TOiq  xldaiamA  e 
,«ed9oeqs  finB  B»;^«(feJ^  ': 
•d  T©-ti/efl®iT  laloaivc'i 
Be;ffli  rfoua  i^*  aic  :    r^ 
6tfl2  eAi   to  BoJtqoc    ,;ij 
6  BtebaQl  »r. 

')aiXqqi/8   acf  o*   c 
•ri*  lo  2[«t©10  ari^  o:f    ,aBi;oH  ar.  ^.eiiqa^  eet^-wq  auoliar 


..w^JBBnaqiaoa  lo 


-  35  -  2-19-45. 

MISS  AGNES  UACPIIAIL  (York  East):   Mr.  Speaker^  I 
would  like  to  ask  the  Prime  Minister  if  he  would  consider 
having  a  copy  made  for  each  membero   It  is  a  little  awkward, 
as  I  am  sure  it  is  awkward  for  the  Prime  Minister,  for  all 
the  Party  members  to  have  access  to  but  one  copy. 

MR.  DREW:   I  will  be  very  glad  to  take  that  up.  Last 
Session  the  leaders  were  supplied  with  the  flimsy  sheets  pre- 
pared by  the  stenographers,  but  I  will  take  it  up  with  them, 
and  see  what  can  be  done  to  have  them  subsequently  mimeo- 
graphed, which  would  take  a  little  longer. 

Motion  agreed  to. 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Moved  by  myself, 
seconded  by  Mr.  Frost  (Provincial  Treasurer),  "Ordered,  that 
a  Select  Committee  be  appointed  to  act  with  I^lr.  Speaker  in  the 
control  and  management  of  the  Library,  such  Committee  to  be 
composed  as  follows; 

"Messrs.  Ilanna  (Chairman),  Arnott,  Laurier,  MacLeod, 
MCEwing,  Overall,  Reynolds,  Robertson  and  Scott. 

"The  Q,uorum  of  the  said  Committee  to  consist  of  three 

MR.  A.  A.  MacLEOD  (Bellwoods):  If  I  remember  correct- 
ly, I  was  on  this  Committee  last"  year,  and  no  meeting  of  the 
Committee  was  held.  I  am  Just  wondering  if  there  is  any  re- 
cord  of  this  particular  Committee  ever  having  met  since  pro- 
vision was  made  for  it  during  the  life  of  this  Legislature. 

MR.  DREW:   I  feel  sure  the  Chairman  of  the  Committee 
will  be  most  anxious  to  hold  meetings  if  it  is  suggested,  and 
the  suggestion  would,  I  feel  sure,  be  welcomed.  But,  since 
the  question  has'^been  raised,  there  is  one  thing  I  would  like 
to  make  quite  clear  in  case  any  wrong  impression  should  be  left: 
we  have  one  of  the  finest  Legislative  libraries  in  existence, 


-  ac  - 

I    ^lealBeqB  aaa  aCttoY) 

LLa  icl    ,ie;f:'  dWJiWB  eJ:  ^t   eniia  ma  I   aa  XlJns jjp©adi/8  xn&iiJ"   ovi'  .^aoh   30  ajiw  asa  i)nB 

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*ari;^    .fieieJbrtO"    ,  (latuaBarr: 

^b09 '"'»"' 


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aaJ#liamoO  arlJf  lo  oBm-xie 
j[>nfi    ,69^^86331/8   Bit  -li^aar 

3"ldl  ad  bluoda  aoiae^iqnix  saoaw  y. 

.eonod^alro  at  aeJtiBidil  arii-alaisaJ  d-aoi 

.-  .  ^oeXeB  a 

■iiii  Ioi:;fxioo 
8wr  3B  baaoqaoo 

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jv  I   ,yX 

xaq  8  1)100 

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vcHB  d-BOifl  ad  XX iw 
1 8  ©3^1/6  aril 

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evBd  dw 

-  36  -  2-19-45. 

and  I  sometiines  wonder  whether  all  the  members  themselves, 
as  well  as  others  to  whom  the  library  is  accessible,  are 
fully  aware  of  the  quality  of  the  library,   I  wish  to  pay 
tribute  to  those  in  charge  of  the  library  and  the 
librarians  for  the  maintenance  of  one  of  the  finest 
libraries  we  have.     Time  and  time  again  I  have  been 
able  to  get  books  from  that  library  that  I  could  not  get 
elsewhere.  I  can  only  close  by  saying  I  know  the 
Committee  would  welcome  more  frequent  meetings* 

Motion  agreed  to. 

HON.  GEORGE  A,  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Moved  by 
myself,  seconded  by  Mr.  Frost,  "Ordered,  That  a  select 
Committee  be  appointed  to  direct  the  expenditure  of  any 
sum  set  apart  in  the  Estimates  for  Art  Purposes,  such 
Committee  to  be  composed  as  follows: 

"Messrs.  Duckworth  (Chairman,  Begin,  Casselraan, 
Hepburn  (Prince  Edward-Lennox),  Oliver,  Robson,  Salsberg, 
Taylor  (Huron),  Warren, 

"The  Quorum  of  the  said  Committee  to  consist  of 
three  members." 

MR.  WILLIAM  DUCICT/ORTH  (Dovercourt)  :  Have  I  been 
Chairman  of  this  Committee  before?  If  so,  I  have  never 
known  the  Committee.   I  think  this  Committee  shotold 
function,  and  if  I  have  been  the  Chairman  of  the  Committee 
for  the  last  seven  or  eight  years,  and  did  not  know  it, 
I  want  to  know  this  time. 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Mr.  Speaker, 
I  am  sure  again  everyone  will  welcome  activity  of  the 
Committee,   I  am  informed  Mr.  Duckworth  has  not  been  the 
Chairman  for  the  past  six  or  seven  years,  but,  nevertheless, 
I  do  assure  him  everyone  will  welcome  meetings  of  that 
Committee.  It  may  be  a  matter  of  interest  to  the  members 

9 -IB     , 


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aiflJtM  ©i 

t     SS^BPI,. 






,d-i  ;7o: 


U     »n- /-.irf--ici.-<     c 

■  n;fl  I 

SXSd'^    iltdV'dc 

\/    ji.  » 

-  37  -  2-19-45. 

to  know  as  a  result  of  the  Committees  of  the  past  we  have 
a  collection  of  Canadian  ilrt  in  this  huilding  which  has 
become  extremely  valuable  for  the  future,  and  that  Committee 
has  a  very  good  duty  to  perform  in  gathering  future  art. 

ISR.    V/ILLIAl.r  DUCKWORTH  (Dover court)  ;   I  desire  to 
call  the  Committee  together, 

Iffi.  SPEAKER:  You  are  not  the  Chairman, 

l-m,  JOSEPH  B.  3ALSBERG  (St.  Andrew):   I  want  to 
utilize  this  opportunity  by  congratulating  the  Government 
for  their  choice  of  the  Chairmanship  of  this  Committee,  as 
one  who  is  proposed  to  serve  on  the  Committee,  and  I  shall 
be  glad  to  be  guided  by  the  Chairman  proposed  by  the  Govern- 

MR.  Edward  B.  Jolliffe  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
I  do  not  know  that  the  last  speech  was  in  order,  because  I 
think  it  was  in  the  nature  of  a  campaign  speech  by  the 
Chairman  of  the  Committee  as  well  as  the  honourable  gentle- 

I  would  just  like  to  draw  the  attention  of  the  House 
to  the  fact  that  since  the  last  Session  another  work  has  been 
added  to  this,  (E  believe  in  this  building,)  because  of  the 
presentation  and  the  unveiling  of  the  portrait  of  the  last 
Speaker  of  this  House.  Perhaps  not  everyone  in  the  House 
is  aware  of  it.   I  suggest  we  take  note  of  it  now.   I  am  not 
sure  where  it  is  hung,  but  it  was  unveiled  in  the  month  of 

MR,  DUCKWORTH:   I  object  to  the  statement  of  the 
hon.  Leader  of  the  Opposition  — 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Shall  the  motion  carry? 

MR.  DUCKWORTH:   I  object  to  his  making  canpaign 
speeches o 

MR.  SPEAKER:   I  am  standing,  Mr.  Duckworth.   Shall 


T£   - 

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li-,^_      . -i:  iow2loira    .111    ,3niJ&nBtB  iJiB   I      rSaCMA'': 

•  38  -  2-19-45 • 

the  motion  carry? 

Motion  agreed  to. 

MR.  SPEAKER:   I  might  say  to  the  hon.  members  that  I 
am  their  servant,  but  when  the  Speaker  rises,  hon.  members 
will  please  take  their  seats » 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister) :   I  beg  to 
move,  Mr.  Speaker,  seconded  by  Mr.  Frost,  that  a  select 
committee  of  eleven  members  be  appointed  to  prepare  and 
report  with  all  convenient  despatch  lists  of  the  members  to 
compose  the  Select  Standing  Committees  ordered  by  the  House, 
such  committee  to  be  composed  as  follows: 

'  Messrs.  Anderson,  Belanger,  Kelly,  MacLeod,  McPhee, 
Miller,  Murdoch,  Porter,  Robinson  (Waterloo  South),  Stewart 
(Kingston)  and  Strange. 

The  Quorum  of  the  said  committee  to  consist  of 
three  members* 

Motion  agreed  to. 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Further  motions? 

Introduction  of  bills. 

&IR.  R.  P.  VIVIAN  (Minister  of  Health):  Mr.  Speaker, 
I  move,  seconded  by  Mr.  Dunbar,  that  leave  be  given  to  intro- 
duce a  bill  intituled  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Mental  Hospitals* 
Act",  and  the  same  be  now  read  the  first  time. 

MR.  EDWARD  B.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
Would  the  hon.  Minister  eiplain  briefly? 

MR.  VIVIAN:   It  is  to  clarify  the  procedure  for  appre- 
hending escaped  patients. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  Bill  read  the  first  time, 

HON.  R.  P.  VIVIAN  (Minister  of  Health):  Mr,  Speaker, 
I  move,  seconded  by  I4r,  D\inbar,  that  leave  be  given  to  intro- 
duce a  bill  intituled  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Children»s  Pro- 

-  39  -  2-19-45. 

tection  Act",  and  that  the  same  be  now  read  the  first  time. 

Motion  agreed  to. 

First  reading  of  the  Bill. 

MR.  JOLLIFFE:   Y/hat  is  the  nature  of  the  bill? 

MR.  VIVIAN:  Mr.  Speaker,  it  is  to  clarify  the 
definition  of  "neglected  child"* 

HON.  -.VESLEY  G,  TliOLlPSON  (Minister  of  Lands  and 
Forests):  Mr.  Speaker,  I  move,  seconded  by  !ir.  Dailey,  that 
leawe  be  given  to  introduce  a  bill  intituled  "An  Act  to 
amend  the  Territorial  Division  Act",  and  that  the  same  be 
now  read  the  first  time. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time. 

MR,   xlRTIIUR  A.    CASSELMAN   (Nipissing):      Would   the   hon. 
Minister  give  us   some  idea  of  the  purpose  of  the  Act? 

MR.   THOMPSON:     Mr.    Speaker,    some  years   ago   there  was 
an  Act  put  through  the  House   changing  the  name  of  a  township. 
At  that  time   there  was  a  township  kno?ra   as   "Coffin"  and 
"Coffin  B".     The  named  was   changed  from  "Coffin"   to  "Angus", 
but  no  mention  was  made  of  "Coffin  B",    and  this   is  correctr 
ing  that  error. 

Mr.   Speaker,    I  move,    seconded  by  Mr.   Daley,    that 
leave  be  given  to  introduce  a  bill  intituled  "An  Act  to  amiend 
the  Siirveys'Act,   1945",   and  that   same  be  now  read  the   first 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time. 

MR.   SPEAKER:      Introduction  of  bills? 

MR.    EDWARD    B.    JOLLIFFE    (Leader  of   the   Opposition):     Mr, 
Speaker,   I  move,    seconded  by  Ulr,   Straige    (Brentford),    that  this 
House  do  now  adjourn,   and  I  do  so    for   the  purpose  of  discussing 
a  matter  of  urgent  immediate  importance* 

I  refer  to  the  situation  with  respect   to  the   supply 

-  40  -  2^19-45. 

Mr.  Jolliffe, 

and  distribution  of  fuel  which  has  developed  throughout  this 
province  during  recent  weeks. 

May  I  first  of  all  acknowledge  freely  that  I  am 
aware,  as  every  other  hon.  member  of  the  House  is  aware, 
that  the  Government  is  not  wholly  responsible  for  the  con- 
dition whicfc  exists o  We  are  a?;are  that  conditions  hav^e  been 
made  much  more  difficult  by  the  weather  of  recent  weeks,  by 
an  unusually  cold  January,  and  by  heavy  snowfalls  which 
have  interfered  with  transportation  facilities. 

We  are  also  aware  that  the  condition  is  not  peculiar 
to  our  own  province  of  Ontario,  but  that  neighbouring  states 
in  the  United  States  of  America  have  been  experiencing  diffi- 
culties alsoo  We  are  aware  also  that  in  some  measure,  at 
least,  control  over  the  supply  and  distribution  of  fuel  is 
exercised  by  federal  authority. 

Recognizing  all  these  facts,  Mx,   Speaker,  it  is  still 
true  that  the  emergency  conditions  vfoich  have  arisen  recently, 
and  Tuftiich  exist  to-day,  do  require  some  action  on  the  part 
of  the  Provincial  Government.   Not  only  are  conditions  bad 
to-day,  but  they  might  easily  become  worse.  Another  period 
of  extremely  cold  weather,  and  possibly  another  heavy  snow- 
fall, would  bring  very  real  suffering  to  tens  of  thousands  of 
homes  throughout  this  province.  My  information  is  that 
much  inconvenience  ar^d  considerable  suffering  already  exists. 

The  condition  of  shortages,  and  the  conditions  under 
which  deliveries  cannot  be  satisfactorily  attained,  are  not 
only  affecting'  the  health  and  ^welfare  of  many  of  our  people, 
but  also  have  interfered,  to  some  extent,  with  war  production, 
because  they heve  disturbed  the  routine  of  war  v/orkers  and  prevent* 
ed  many  of  them  from  obtaining  proper  fuel  supplies  for  their 

-  41  -  2-19-45. 

Mr.  Jolliffe. 

I  suggest,  MTo  Speaker,  that  some  facilities  of  the 
Provincial  Government  might  well  have  been  used  to  supple- 
ment the  ordinary,  normal  facilities  which  exist  in  many  of 
our  larger  centres.  Although  I  know  there  are  many  other 
\ises  for  them,  I  have  in  mind  the  emergency  which  should 
fully  justify  the  use  of  many  of  the  motor  trucks  owned  and 
operated  by  the  Provincial  Government,  to  assist  in 
facilitating  deliverieso 

I  should  have  tho\:ight,  also,  that  the  Provincial 
Fuel  Committee  appointed  at  the  last  Session  of  the  House 
should  have  had  jurisdiction  to  investigate  the  whole  fuel 
problem,  and  not  merely  one  aspect  of  the  problem,  and  might 
have  been  able  to  provide  a  solution  for  the  present  crisis 
before  it  arose. 

After  all,  these  crises  are  foreseeable;  we  had  no 
right  to  expect  we  would  be  as  fortunate  this  year  as  w© 
were  last,  when  unusually  mild  weather  saved  the  province 
from  the  same  condition  which  exists  to-day« 

I  would  point  out,  also,  in  some  areas  in,  I  believe, 
the  neighbouring  State  of  New  York,  the  delivery  of  coal  to 
non-essential  users  has  been  stopped,  and  I  would  have  thought 
that   procedure  could  have  been  followed  in  many  cities  and 
towns  of  Ontario,  and  would  have  been  fully  justified  in 
recent  weeks o 

I  am  concerned  that  the  conditions  do  not  get  worse, 
and  I  appeal  to  the  Government  to  take  whatever  action  may 
be  taken  by  the  Provincial  Government  to  guard  against  the 
results  of  a  continued  shortage,  or  of  a  renewed  period  of 
very  cold  weather,  or  of  another  snowfallo 

After  all,  it  was  acknowledged  to  this  House  in  the 
budget  debate  last  year  by  the  Provincial  Treasurer  (Iiiro  • 

-  42  -  2-19-45, 

Mr»  Jolliffe. 

Daley)  that  we  had  been  very  fortunate  last  year,  and  I  think 

he  referred  to  the  serious  danger  that  there  would  be  a  real 

shortage  this  year  if  there  was  a  heavy  winter.  That  was 

also  acknowledged  by  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  (LITo  Drew)  at 

an  earlier  date,  speaking  on  the  radio,  in  July  of  1943, 

when  the  Prime  Minister  said,  and  I  quote: 

"Adequate  supplies  at  reasonable  prices  of 
fuel,  milk  and  other  basic  necessities  will  be 
assured  by  effective  'dtganization  and  administra- 
tive control.   Representatives  of  labour,  veterans* 
organizations,  and  the  consuming  public  will  be 
appointed  to  all  boards  dealing  with  these 

So  that  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  (Mr.  Drew)  was  well 

aware  at  that  time  of  the  importance  of  taking  the  necessary 

measures  to  protect  our  people  in  connection  with  this 


I  raise  the  question  to-day,  because  I  am  sure  that 
to-day,  just  as  much  as  in  July  of  1943,  the  provincial 
administration  has  a  measure  of  responsibility  for  institut- 
ing that  effective  organization  and  administrative  control 
to  which  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  referred  in  July  of  1945o 

I  am  not  going  to  deal  with  the  details  of  the 
situation,  many  of  which  have  been  drawn  to  the  attention  of 
members  of  this  House  throughout  the  province.   The  time 
allotted  to  us  in  discussing  matters  of  this  kind  is  limited 
to  ten  minutes,  and  I,  therefore,  content  myself  with  an 
appeal  to  the  Government  to  institute  that  measure  of  ef- 
fective organization  and  administrative  control  whicQi  will 
Improve  the  present  situation,  before  it  gets  any  worse. 

MR.   ROBERT  D.  THORNBERRY  (Hamilton  Centre):  Mr„ 
Speaker,  I  support  the  statements  made  by  the  previous 
speaker  in  regard  to  the  fuel  situation,   I  can  only  state 
the  situation  which  exists  in  my  own  city  of  Hamilton j  where 

-  43  -  2-19-45. 

Mr.  Thornberry. 

we  have  the  ridiculous  picture  of  people  haiiling  bags  of 
fuel  in  small  sleighs,  not  wholly  because  there  is  no  trans- 
portation, but  because  there  is  a  very  definite  shortage  of 
fuel  and  the  dealers  are  restricted  to  selling  fuel  in  such 
small  amounts o 

I  feel  that  the  Govemraent,  in  view  of  its   Point 
No.  19,  has  been  fully  aware  of  the  growing  crisis,  because 
it  is  something  which  has  come  on  the  country  not  rapidly; 
it  goes  back  some  years.   In  1942,  16,000  gas-heating 
furnaces  in  the  city  of  London  had  to  be  dismantled  because 
of  the  shortage  of  gas,  necessitating  fuel-heating  units  of 
a  different  tjrpe  to  bum  coal  and  cokCo 

There  was  ample  indication  that  steps  should  be 
taken  to  assure  an  adequate  supply. 

Now,    the  production  in  Canada  we  find  in  1944  dropped 
from  17,800,000   tons   to  17,000,000  tons,   a  drop   of  800,000 
tonSo     That  is   also   evidence  that  the  question  of  fuel 
supplies   should  have  been  dealt  with  and  dealt  with  in  a 
manner  that  would  have  ensured  the  people  against  any  short- 

Now,   out  in  Saskatchewan  the  Gowernment   has 
taken  immediate  steps  by  making  plans   for  setting  up  plants 
that  will  process  tl^  soft  or  steam  coal,    eLLlowing  for  the 
use  of  the  gas  and  by-products  of  that  nature.     But  anyone 
^o  has  been  in  Hamilton  knows   that  the   city  has  simply  a 
pall  of  smoke  hanging  over  it  from  the  burning  of  soft   coal. 

Millions  and  millions   of  feet  of  gas  are  being  wasted 
which  could  heat  thousands   of  furnaces,    and   in  view  of  that 
situation,   Mr,    Speaker,    I  am  supporting  the  motion,   and  hope 
that  the  Government  will  take   immediate  necessary  steps, 

MISS  AGNES  1,IACPHAIL   (East  York)  :      I  want   to  say  only 
a  sentence  or  two.     I  have  done  some  speaking  throughout 

-  44  -  2-19-45 o 

Miss  Macphail 
Mr,  Dennis on 

the  country  betvseen  Sessions,  and  I  have  foxind  when  I  was 
addressing  audiences  there  was  one  question  which  alv;ays 
came  up,  and  that  was  "Where  will  we  get  coal?". 

Very  often  I  was  not  making  political  speeches, 
but  speaking  as  a  director  of  the  United  Farmers'  Cooperative 
Company,  and  v;hen  we  asked  them  what  they  would  like  the 
Company  to  do,  or  if  they  had  any  suggestions,  they  invariab- 
ly made  sugg.estions  about  coal,  saying  "Why  don»t  you  send 
us  coal?",  or  "What  are  we  going  to  do  for  coal?" 

That  does  not  apply  to  counties  like  Grey  and  Bruce, 
where  the  farmers  usually  burn  wood,  but  it  does  apply  to 
other  parts  of  the  province,  where  wood  is  not  obtainable 
and  they  want  to  get  coal  and  have  found  difficulty  in  getting 

MR.  WILLIAM  DENNISON  (St,  David):  Mr.  Speaker,  I 
would  like  to  urge  that  every  man  who  may  be  available  in  the 
various  departments  of  the  province  be  made  available  now  for 
this  worko   It  is  not  only  trucks,  -  it  is  men,  and  the  local 
Selective  Service  are  not  able  at  the  present  time  to  give 
the  dealers  the  men  they  need  to  supply  the  fuelo  Each  day 
many  vehicles  remain  idle  all  day  long,  because  the  men  are 
not  available  to  drive  them  in  this  emergencyo 

The  local  fuel  exchange  is  getting  five  hundred  re- 
quests each  day  for  fuel,  but  is  only  able  to  fill  a  certain 
number  of  them,   I  am  not  sure  of  the  number  they  do  fill, 
but  there  are  many  pe;ople  iisiio  are  going  without  fuel. 

In  regard  to  war  workers,  I  was  informed  by  a  fuel 
dealer  this  morning  that  he  had  several  war  workers  this 
morning  showing  him  slips  they  had  from  their  war  industries 
notifying  them  they  were  excused  for  the  day  in  order  that 
th®y  might  use  a  hand  sleigh  to  go  to  the  local  fuel  yard 

-  45  -  2-19-45» 

MTo  Dennlson. 

and  get  some  fuel  to  keep  their  homes  warm. 

This  emergency  has  reached  a  stage  where  I  think 
emergency  measures  are  called  for,  and  we  should  be  prepar- 
ed«  just  the  same  as  the  municipalities  in  the  province 
are  now  supplying  as  many  men  as  they  have  to  spare  ,   the 
provincial  department  should  also  be  prepared  to  supply  as 
many  men  and  vehicles  as  they  can  spare  in  this  emergency. 

MR.  JOSEPHS.  SALSBERG  (St.  Andrew):  Mr,  Speaker, 
I  rise  to  support  the  motion  moved  by  the  hon.  Leader  of 
the  Opposition  (Mr,  Jolliffe),  although  I  will  say  quite 
frankly  that  I  expected,  when  I  heard  him  begin  his  remarks, 
that  he  wo\ild  make  some  more  concrete  proposals  than  he  did. 

I  agree  that  this  calls  for  the  intervention  of  the 
Provincial  Government,   It  is  a  provincial  problem  of  a 

serious  nature,  a  problem  which,  at  any  rate,  the  Govern- 

it  should 
ment  should  assume  responsibility  for,  and/do  everything  in 

its  power  to  alleviate  the  situation,, 

I  am  conscious  of  the  fact  that  the  Importation  of 
coal  is  not  entirely  a  provincial  responsibility,  nor  even 
within  its  exclusive  jurisdictiono  As  a  matter  of  fact,  It 
is  arranged,  I  understand,  on  a  basis  of  ainual  quotas  between 
the  Federal  Government  of  Canada  and  the  authorities  in 
Washington,   It  is  a  fact,  however,  that  the  Provincial 
Government  can  and,  therefore,  should,  do  something,  very 

May  I  also  remind  the  House  that  during  the.  last  war, 
as  I  have  been  advised  by  Mr.  Harris,  the  Commissioner  of  Works 
of  the  city  of  Toronto,  the  Provincial  Government  of  that  day 
appointed  a  provincial  Fuel  Controller  in  the  person  of  Mr<, 
Harris,  who  was  borrowed  from  the  city  of  Toronto,  and  having 
had  the  privilege  of  being  a  chairman  of  a  coal  committee  in 

-  46  -  2-19-45. 

Llr.  Salsberg. 

the  city  of  Toronton  in  1943,  I  had  occasion  to  listen  to  the 
activities  of  Mr,  Harris  in  the  capacity  of  the  provincial 
Fuel  Controller« 

He  did  quite  a  bit  at  the  time  to  secure  coal,  to 
allocate  coal  frcci  one  locality  to  another,  to  switch  trains 
and  cars  of  coal  to  where  it  was  most  urgently  required  — 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DBEW  (Prime  Minister):  Mr.  Speaker, 
I  do  not  v/ant  to  interrupt  the  hon.  member  (Mr,  Salsberg), 
but  I  suppose  he  knows  he  is  referring  to  the  Controller 
for  the  province  appointed  by  the  Dominion  Government,  and 
not  a  controller  appointed  by  the  provincoo 

MR.  SALSBERG:   Mr.  Speaker,  I  would  not  mind  being 
corrected,  but  my  information,  as  I  understood  it,  and  as  I 
got  it  from  MTo  Harris,  was  that  he  was  called  by  the 
Premier  of  the  Provincial  Government  of  the  day.   I  may  be 
mistaken,  but  I  understood  he  was  called  upon  by  the  Premier 
of  the  province  at  that  time,  and  was  asked  to  act  on  be- 
half of  the  province  in  handling  the  fuel  crisis  which  pre- 
vailed at  that  time.   If  I  am  \7rong,  I  am  willing  to  stand 
corrected,  but  that  w^as  definitely  my  impression  of  Mr*, 
Harris»  position  at  that  timeo 

I  would  say,  therefore,  that  some  emergency  action 
is  required.   I  believe  that  other  hon.  members  of  the  House 
have  the  experience,  as  have  I,  of  receiving  countless 
numbers  of  calls  from  constituents  who  are  in  need  of  coal, 
and  when  I  tell  them  that  the  province  has  no  facilities, 
and  has  no  apparatus  to  which  I  can  even  refer  them,  they 
find  it  difficult  to  understand,  and  so  do  I, 

I  would  suggest  that  this  House  agree  to  set  up  a 
special  committee  of  the  House  to  deal  with  the  problem  from 
day  to  day  as  an  emergency  requirement ,  and  give  whatever 

-  47  -  2-19-45, 

direction  is  possible  and  whatever  assistance  is  possible 
to  the  crisis  in  the  province  as  far  as  coal  is  concerned. 

If  the  mover  of  this  motion  would  agree  I  would  sug- 
gest that  this  be  incorporated,  or  I  will  move  an  amendment  — 

MR.  ANDERSON:   The  motion  is  no^t  amendableo 

MR.  SALSBERG:   —  that  a  committee  of  the  House  be 
appointed  to  deal  with  this  question  — 

ISR,   SPEAICER:   The  motion  is  not  debatable. 

MR.   SALSBERG:   Then,  I  will  leave  it  as  a  proposal 
and  respectfully  suggest  that  the  Government  take  it  into 
consideration,  -  that  is,  the  setting-up  of  a  committee  ot 
this  character  to  deal,  on  behalf  of  the  province  and  in  con- 
junction with  the  hono  Minister,  with  this  emergency  situa- 
tion, and  possibly  be  able  to  help  solve  this  problem  and 
to  deal  with  it  from  day  to  day, 

Iffio  WILLIAM  DUCK'TORTH  ( Dover  court )  :  MTo   Speaker, 
I  would  like  to  be  on  that  committee, 

im.   DENNISON:   So  would  I„ 

DR.  DREW:  Mr,  Speaker 9  I  would  like  to  point  out  that 
as  far  as  the  motion  is  concerned,  the  motion  is  simply  one  to 
adjourn  to  discuss  a  matter  of  importance,  and  I  recognize  it 
is  a  matter  of  importanceo 

And,  as  you  have  noticed,  I  have  raised  no  objection 
of  any  kind  to  the  discussion,  and,  for  my  own  part,  I  welcome 
the  discussion. 

It  is  important  that  we  recognize  the  things  we  can  do 
and  the  things  we  cannot  do,  and  it  is  going  to  save  a  lot  of 
time  if  we  avoid  a  mere  parading  of  what  might  appear  to  be 
good  talk  being  reported  outside,         but  whicli  is  known 
perhaps  not  to  have  any  bearing  on  the  actual  things  which  can 
be  done. 

-  48  -  2-19-45. 

Now,  the  purchase  of  fuel  in  the  United  States,  as 
has  already  been  indicated  by  one  of  the  hon,  members,  the 
transportation  of  the  fuel  here,  the  prices  of  the  fuel, 
the  handling  a£    the  fuel,  as  far  as  man  power  is  concerned, 
and  the  delivery  of  the  fuel,  is  all  entirely  under  th« 
jurisdiction  of  the  Dominion  Government  under  its  war  powers, 
and  I  am  not  in  any  way  forgetful  of  the  position  we  took  in 
regard  to  the  things  that  we  would  do,  but  naturally  those 
things  are  subject,  always,  to  the  over-riding  pqwers  of  the 
Dominion  Government  tinder  its  war-measure  powers  o 

That  does  not  mean  that  we  have  not  made  an  effort 
to  arouse  a  full  appreciation  of  the  situation,  but  I  may  say 
that  not  only  on  this  occasion,  but  on  other  occasions,  we 
have  done  our  utmost  to  impress  upon  the  Dominion  Government 
the  necessity  for  action  under  the  wider  powers  they  possesso 
We  have  had  discussions  on  this  subject  as  recently  as  the 
last  few  days, 

I  recognize,  and  my  colleagues  recognize,  the  serious*- 
ness  of  the  situation.   One  of  the  things  which  has  caused 
that  is  something  over  which  we  have  no  control,  and  'that  is 
the  unparalleled  blockade  of  transportation  in  th©  coal- 
mining areas  of  the  United  States.  Another  thing,  as  every 
hon.  member  here  knows,  -  and  I  am  not  in  any  way  discussing 
the  issue,  -  was  the  tie-up  in  production, through  strikes  in 
the  coal  mining  areas,  which  also  has  had  a  very  considerable 
effect  on  the  present  shortage  in  the  reserves  of  coal. 

Now,  as  for  the  suggestion  that  we  should  set  up  some 
body  to  deal  with  these  matters:  we  have  the  power  to  deal  with 
them,  so  long  as  the  over-riding  war  powers  of  the  Dominion 
Governnent  are  not  operating,  as  they  do,  in  the  whole  field 
of  fuel  handling,  distribution  and  control  at  the  present  time^ 
and  also  in  the  case  of  man  power. 

-  49  -  2-19-45. 

Now,  the  suggestion  has  been  made  that  men  should  be 
made  available  from  the  provincial  organization  to  do  this 
work.  May  I  say  to  the  hon,  members  that  if  it  had  not  been 
for  the  fact  that  the  men  working  for  the  Provincial  Govern- 
ment have  been  going  long  hours,  far  beyond  any  of  the  hours 
we  suggest  as  the  ordinary  limit  for  wDrk  around  here  —  if 
they  had  not  been  working  through  whole  nights  without  sleep- 
ing, at  all,  on  the  snow  ploughs  and  tractors  of  this  province, 
keeping  the  roads  open,  there  would  not  have  been  deliveries 
even  as  there  have  been.  The  people  of  this  province  may  well 
be  proud  of  the  magnificent  efforts  of  the  men  in  the  provincial 
organizations  who  have  worked  day  and  night  to  keep  these  roads 
open  and  in  that  way    assist  the  situation  very  greatly, 

I  welcome  the  suggestion  that  we  do  everything  we  can 
to  stimulate  the  interest  of  the  Dominion  Government  in  the 
handling  of  this.  In  so far  as  the  present  situation  is  con- 
cerned, I,  for  one,  am  quite  prepared  to  agree  that  steps  could 
have  been  taken  long  in  advance  of  the  present  to  have  increased 
reserves  of  coal  under  the  Dominion  powers  to  meet  just  such  a 
situation  as  we  now  face.  But  the  suggestion  did  not  meet  with 
the  approval  of  those  who  have  the  authority,  and  no  matter  how 
much  we  might  like  to  do  so,  we  cannot  force  action  on  the  part 
of  those  who,  under  the  War  Measures'  Act,  have  both  the 
responsibility  and  the  legal  power. 

Now,  it  has,  to  a  considerable  degree,  been  the  result 
of  lack  of  foresight  on  the  part  of  those  who  are  handling  the 
control  of  fuel  at  Ottawa,  and  that  is  not  because  of  any  fail- 
ure on  the  part  of  this  Government  to  try  to  draw  attention  to 
the  need  for  anticipating  such  a  possibility.  We  will  press  for 
such  action  as  can  be  taken,  not  forgetting  that  apart  from  any 
lack  of  action  on  their  part,  there  has  always  been  a  situation 

-  50  -  2-19-45. 

lJlr»   Drew. 
Mr.  Brovm. 

in  this  province,  so  far  as  snow  is  concerned,  that  no  one 
in  this  Leglslatvire  can  possibly  foretell, 

MR.  HOWARD  E.  BROTWI   (Welland):   I  wonder  if  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister  (Mr.  Drew)  could  tell  us  the  date  that  the 
Dominion  authorities  took  control  of  the  coal  situation.  TTas 
it  before  1943,  or  when  was  it  that  the  Dominion  Government 
took  complete  control? 

MR.  DREW:   I  cannot  give  the  hon.  member  (Mr.  Brown) 
the  exact  date,  but  I  will  be  happy  to  get  it  for  him  and 
furnish  him  with  ito 

MR,  BROWN:   Was  this  before  1943,  or  since? 

MR.  SPEAKER:   The  hon.  Prime  Minister  says  that  the 
information  will  be  furnished  as  to  the  exact  date. 

Iffi.   DREW:      I  can  assure   the  hon.   member  it  was  before 
we   took  office, 

MR.   BROWN:      It  was  before? 

IvIR.    DREW:      Yes. 

MR.  BROWN:   The  hon.  Prime  Minister  has  told  us  the 
things  we  can  do  and  the  things  we  cannot  do,  but  in  July  of 
1943  we  were  told  definitely  that  if  this  Government  were 
elected  it  would  take  a  definite  step  to  plan  this  thing, 
whether  it  was  food  or  whether  it  was  fuel,  or  whatever  it 
was,  and  now  they  come  along  and  say  we  must  recognize  the 
things  we  can  do  and  the  things  we  cannot  do. 

It  seems  to  me  we  should  do  this  recognizing  when 
we  start  to  make  our  political  promises,  rather  than  after 
we  get  into  office. 

For  that  reason,  Mr.  Speaker,  I  think  it  is  well 
that  this  discussion  should  go  on,  and  see  if  we  cannot 
formulate  some  plan  to  alleviate  the  distress  there  is  in 
the  province  at  the  present  time. 

-  51  -  2-19-45. 

Mr.  Drew, 

MR.  DREW:  Mr.  Speaker,  I  will  just  deal  with  this  in 
a  word.   The  speech,  of  course  that  was  made  was  made  for  a 
purpose  which  had  nothing  to  do  with  the  solution  of  the  fuel 

MR.  ARTHUR  A.  CASSELI.IAH  (Nipissing)  :  Mr.  Speaker,  I 
object  to  that  statement. 

MR.  DRM:  But  it  had  to  do  with  an  \mdertaking  that 
was  given  when  neither  we  nor  anybody  else  had  any  reason  to 
believe  that  this  war  was  going  on  as  it  now  has,  and  as  long 
as  the  war  goes  on,  the  Dominion  Government  exercises  power 
under  its  authority. 

Now,  since  the  hon.  member  has  been  so  concerned  about 
this,  I  might  explain  that  the  Fuel  Controller  was  appointed 
in  the  summer  of  1942,  and  from  that  time  on  there  has  been  an 
exercise  of  authority,  but  insofar  as  powers  are  concerned,  I 
can  assure  the  hon.  member  that  we  are  not  going  to  adopt 
parellel  legislation,  but  will,  under  the  powers  which  exist, 
do  everything  we  can  to  see  that  tMs  situation  is  met. 

MR.  L.  CxREIVE  ROBINSON  (South  v/aterloo) :   I  want  to  add 
one  word  briefly,  and  that  is  a  reference  to  the  extenuating 
circumstances  put  forward  in  connection  with  a  particularly 
long  winter  and  the  great  amount  of  snow  which  we  have  had. 
The  one  thing  which  appeals  to  me  is  this,  and  it  comes  to  me 
very  strongly,  Mr.  Speaker,  if  we  are  not  able  to  plan  for  a 
matter  which  in  a  sense  could  be  expected,  as  compared  to  what 
we  are  going  to  have  to  face  in  terms  of  planning  when  this 
war  is  finished  —  if  we  are  not  able  to  plan  for  this  seeming- 
ly trivial  matter,  what  may  v/e  expect  in  the  future  from  the 

MR.  DRE7/:   I  assume  that  the  hon.  member  knows  that- 
there  is  legislation  actually  in  existence  tinder  which  we  can 

-  52  -  2-19-45. 

LIT .  Drew 

act  with  full  authority  the  moment  the  War  Measures*  Act  is  with- 
drawn,  but  the  i,7ar  Measures*  Act  at  the  present  time  supersedes 
many  provincial  authorities,  and  nothing  but  hopeless  confusion 
would  result  if  we  attempted  to  exercise  authority  we  did  not 
possess,  and  I  hope  the  hon.  member  is  not  suggeating'we  do  that, 

lAE.   ROB INSOI^  (South  Waterloo):  May  I  reply  to  that? 

MR.  SPEMER:  After  this,  there  v/ill  only  be  one  address 
on  a  subject, 

MR.  ROBINSON  (South  Y/aterloo)  :   Surely  this  point  is 
clear  to  all  of  us,  that  when  the  promise  was  made  that  "There 
will  be  adequate  supplies  at  reasonable  prices  of  fuel,  milk, 
and  other  basic  necessities,  which  will  be  assured  by  effective 
organization  and  administrative  control"  —  surely,  when  that 
point  v/as  being  concocted,  the  fact  was  that  the  War  Measures 
Act' had  occurred,  and  should  have  been  in  the  possession  of 
those  who  concocted  that  particular  pointo 

MR.  DREW:   I  do  not  want  to  labour,  the  point,  but' I  h.op# 
they  were  also  in  the  possession  of  the  party  to  which  the  hon. 
member  belongs  when  they  drafted  the  same  thing, 

MR...  M.  F.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):   They  were  not  called  upon 
to  make  good  their  promises, 

MR.  BLACCTELL:   No,  and  they  never  will  be, 

MR.  CYRIL  OVERALL  (Niagara  Falls):   I  should  like  to 
ask  a  question  of  the  hon.  Prime  Minister.   Last  year  they  had 
a  Fuel  Commission  bring  In  a  report,  and  I  would  like  to  know 
if  this  i^uel  Commission  which  brought  in  a  report  on  lignite 
was  consulted  with  regard  to  the  critical  situation  which  has 
now  developed  in  respect  to  coal, 

MR.  SPEAKER:   I  think  the  hon.  Minister  oould  answer 
that  question* 

HON.  LESLIE  M.  FROST  (Minister  of  Mines):-  I  might 

-  52  -  2-19-45. 

Mr.  Frost, 

say  in  connection  with  this  fuel  situation  that  vre  have  real- 
ly given  the  matter  a  very  great  deal  of  consideration.  The 
fact  is  this,  that  in  the  province  of  Ontario  we  are  so 
situated  that  we  are  dependent  practically  altogether  upon 
outside  supplies.  We  are  dependent  eithetr  upon  shipments 
from  the  United  States,  or  dependent  on  shipments  from  Nova 
Scotia  or  Alberta.   I  would  not  want  any  member  of  the  House 
to  think  we  have  not  been  giving  this  a  great  deal  of  consider- 
ation.  Over  the  last  several  months  we  have  been  in  consul- 
tation, quite  extensively,  with  our  opposite  member  in 
Alberta,  Llr.  Tanner,  and  the  Hon.  Mr,  Cinrrie,  in  Nova  Scotia, 
in  connection  with  that  particular  problemo 

The  difficulty  we  are  faced  with  at  the  present  time 
is  that  we  have  all  manner  of  wartime  controls  which  are  con- 
fronting us  and  preventing  us  from  doing  anything^  It  is 
tragic  that  the  provinces  of  Ontario  and  Quebec  are  tied  up 
by  reason  of  the  fact  that  there  is  not  in  Canada  such  a  thing 
as  a  national  fuel  policy.  For  years  it  has  been  talked  about, 
but  very  few  concrete  steps  have  been  taken.  We  have  tried  to 
face  up  with  that  problem,  and  only  to-day  I  had  a  communi- 
cation from  the  hon.  Minister  of  Mines  of  Nova  Scotia,  Hon. 
l,lr.  Currie,  in  connection  with  that  questiono 

With  regard  to  doing  anything  at  the  present  time,  we 
have  this  situation:  we  have  the  Dominion  Govemnant  inter- 
vening —and,  after  all,  properly  intervening  —  in  connection 
with  almost  everything  under  the  liVar  Measures  Act.  ^e   have, 
for  instance,  the  Dominion  Government  intervening  in  connec- 
tion with  the  distribution  of  power,  and,  goodness  knows,  those 
of  you  rrom  southwestern  Ontario  know  that  the  Dominion  Govern- 
ment has  intervened  to  a  very  great  extent  in  connection  with 
the  distribution  and  sale  of  artificial  gas. 

-  53  -  2-19-45. 

Ivlr.  Frost « 

To  try  and  arrive  at  anything  concrete  in  the  mat- 
ter of  fuel  policy  in  Canada  is  very  difficiilt  for  this 
reason,  that  man  power  is  definitely  under  the  control  of 
Dominion  authority,  and  we  have  the  same  thing  in  connec- 
tion with  transportation  and  in  connection  with  deliveries. 
We  feel  that  it  is  unfortunate  that  Ontario  and  Quebec  are 
in  the  position  they  are  as  regards  fuel,  and  I  think  that 
is  one  of  the  great  things  we  have  to  do  in  oUr  after-the- 
war  planning  to  meet  that  situation,  and  I  think  it  is  one 
of  the  necessary  reasons  that  makes  a  Dominion-provincial 
conference  so  necessary.  A  Domini on -Provincial  conference 
could  cover  a  tremendous  range  of  subjects  which  would  un- 
do the  difficult  restrictions  we  have  in  Canada  in  connec- 
tion with  the  use  of  our  natural  resources.  If  any  govern- 
ment had  stepped  in  in  the  month  of  August,  1943,  and 
endeavoured  to  bring  about  a  solution  of  the  present  fuel 
difficulties,  it  would,  of  course,  have  been  out  of  the 
question,  but  I  say  it  is  not  outside  the  sphere  of  this 
Qrovernment  or  other  Provincial  Governments  in  Canada  to 
face  up  with  the  problem  and  solve  it  as  soon  as  we  are  per- 
mitted to  do  so. 

I  feel  in  the  present  situation  we,  of  course,  are 
confronted  with  other  things.  We  have  the  people  them- 
selves. You  go  out  into  the  country  and  tell  people  to  fill 
up  their  cellars,  that  there  is  a  fuel  shortage  coming,  but 
there  is  always  a  residue  who  cannot  do  it,  or  will  not  do 
it,  and  that  is  one  of  the  complicating  difficulties  of  the 
present  situation. 

I  feel  this,  that  we,  as  representatives  of  the 
people,  should  recognize  there  is  a  solution  to  this  situa- 
tion, but  it  is  not  a  solution  that  can  be  brought  about  by 

-  54  -  2-19-45, 

Mr.  Frost, 

this  or  any  other  government  at  the  present  time. 

MR.  OTERAIX:  Mr.  Speaker,  I  have  not  received  an 
answer  to  my  question.  The  question  was,  "Did  you  consult 
the  Fuel  Commission  appointed  last  year  with  regard  to  the 
critical  fuel  shortage?" 

MR.  FROST:   That  Committee  vi&s   appointed,  in  the 
first  place,  to  look  into  the  lignite  properties,  and  hon. 
members  opposite  know  that  was  very  extensively  done,  and  I 
think  the  fullest  information  was  given  to  the  House  on  that 

On  the  other  hand,  we  have  had  some  investigation  by 
the  Fuel  Commission  in  regard  to  the  natural-gas  problem,  in 
southwestern  Ontario,  upon  which  I  will  have  an  opportunity, 
a  little  later,  to  give  a  full  statement  to  the  House, 

With  regard  to  the  other  problem,  I  may  say  that  this 
is  so  definitely  removed  from  our  province  by  virtue  of  the 
War  Measures  Act  of  the  Dominion  Government. 

MR.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):  Mr.  Speaker,  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  has  made  a  very  gallant  but  futile  effort  to  extricate 
himself  from  the  position  into  which  he  has  placed  himself  by 
reason  of  the  22  unbridled  points  in  his  platform.  Now,  he 
tries  to  hide  behind  the  fact  that  the  7/ar  Measures  Act  Is  in 
effect.   I  would  remind  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  that  the  War 
Measures  Act  was  in  effect  when  he  made  his  22  promises.  He 
knew  it  then,  as  he  does  to-day.   The  fact  is,  in  regard  to 
some  planks  in  his  platform,  that  he  has  over-reached  himself 
a  little,  and  is  not  man  enough  to  admit  it.  He  did  not  offer 
the  same  explanation  that  Right  Honourable  Mr.  Bennett  did  — 

MR.  DREW:   I  am  glad  you  are  now  an  admirer  of  Mr» 

MR.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):   I^,  Bennett  said  these  words. 

-  55  -  £-19-45. 

l<!lr.  Hepburn. 

"Tie   must  not  hesitate  to  abandon  premature 
commitments  made  in  enthusiastic  anticipation 
of  our  country* s  ultimate  greatness." 

Now,  with  regard  to  the  hon.  Prime  Minister,  I 
would  warn  him  that  probably  he  should  advise  a  lot  of  his 
followers  going  around  the  province  to-day  boasting  of  the 
fact  that  their  leader  has  fulfilled  all  of  his  22-point 
platform.   Right  here  is  one  he  is  claiming  he  is  not  enabled 
to  fill.  As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  heard  him, over  the  radio, 
speak  to  that  effect. 

I  think  it  is  a  good  thing  for  a  politician  to  admit 
that  he  has  made  a  mistake,  and  to  have  this  particular 
plank  thrown  into  the  well-known  ashcan, 

MR.  DREW:   I  feel  axire   that  some  of  the  hon.  members 
who  have  not  had  previous  experience  here  will  understand 
some  of  the  things  they  have  read  about  the  Liberal  remainder. 
If  it  was  coming  from  anybody  else  I  might  take  some  exception 
to  the  statement  that  I  am  not  man  enough  to  do  it,,  I  am 
quite  man  enough  to  meet  the  hon.  member  from  Elgin  (Mr. 
Hepburn)  here  or  any  place  else. 

The  point  is  quite  clear.  We  have  every  intention  of 
dealing  with  this  matter  to  the  limit  of  our  power,  but,  unlike 
the  hon.  member  for  Elgin,  we  do  not  know  when  the  end  of  the 
war  will  be.  Of  course  that  information  is  reserved  for  his 

But  in  so  far  as  the  question  of  this  dealing  with 
coal  is  concerned,  of  course  the  hon.  member  for  Elgin  knows 
that  efforts  have  been  made  to  get  the  Dominion  Governrient  to 
do  it  at  a  time  he  had  not  recognized  the  reform  Liberals  at 
Ottawa.   I  recall  that  he,  as  Premier,  arranged  a  meeting  with 
the  fuel  control  authorities,  at  which  I  was  present,  and  at 
which  an  effort  was  made  to  do  the  very  thing  that  we  are  try- 

-  56  -  2-19-45, 

ing  to  do  here. 

Now,  we  will  continue  to  try  and  do  it,  and  in  the 
meantime  we  have  the  authority  to  act  the  moment  the  V/ar 
Measures  Act  ends, 

MR.  GEORGE  H.  MITCHELL  (York  North):   I  think  the 
time  has  arrived,  Mr,  Speaker,  when  this  Government,  or  any 
other  government,  should  be  prepared  to  accept  the  responsi- 
bilities which  it  acquired  at  the  time  of  being  elected  to 
the  Government.   In  this  particular  instance,  this  Govern- 
ment has  failed  to  do  so,  in  so  far  as  these  remarks  are 
concerned  with  the  future.  It  reminds  me  of  the  saying  of 
a  judge,  that  I  heard  some  years  ago:   "Hades  was  paved  with 
good  intentions."  That  sounds  like  a  somewhat  similar 

MR.  WILLIAMS  C.  RIGGS  (Windsor-Walkerville) :   The  hon. 
Prime  Minister  made  the  remark  that  strikes  have  caused 
loss  of  production.   I  would  be  quite  interested  to  hear  a 
statement  from  the  hon.  Minister  in  regard  to  the  gas  of 
southwestern  Ontario,  because  that  is  one  thing  our  workers 
in  the  automobile  industry,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  lost  many 
years  eigo,  £uid  that  is  all  right.   The  few  strikes  we  have 
had  have  been  very  small,  nothing  to  make  a  big  fuss  about, 
but  in  this  case  it  was  lost  by  poor  management  of  our  fuel 
situation.   It  is  perfectly  all  right  —  our  workers  go  to 
work  and  lose  their  time, 

MR.  DREW:  Mr.  Speaker,  perhaps  it  might  be  helpful 
to  this  Legislature  if  I  may  ask  the  hon.  member  for  York 
North  (Mr,  Mitchell)  if  he  is  exercising  the  power  that  his 
municipality  has  to  deal  with  this  situation, 

MR.  MITCHELL:  Mr.  Speaker,  I  would  like  to  tell  the 
hon.  Prime  Minister  that  up  to  the  present  I  have  not  had  any 

-  57  -  '         2-19-45. 

serious  complaints  regarding  shortage » 

LIR.  HERBERT  COITITOR  (Hamilton  East):  We  have  had  the 
hon.  Prime  Minister  blame  it  on  the  Dominion  Prime  Minister 
and  the  war.  Surely  he  v/ill  not  pin  it  on  North  York.  It  is 
either  the  v/ar  or  the  Government  in  Ottawa.  Surely  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister  can  shoulder  some  responsibility  hicE  elf .  We 
are  sick  and  tired  of  hearing  these  things  cannot  be  done 
because  the  Right  hon,  Iitr,  King  will  not  concur  with  lilr. 
Drew.  They  never  will  agreb  on  God's  green  earth.  We  are 
always  given  s  excuse.  The  oldr-age  pensions  cannot  be 
dealt  with  —  "We  have  to  have  a  conference  with  Ottawa." 
Surely  to  goodness  the  Tory  Party  that  wrote  out  the  twenty- 
two  points  and  vrere  so  sure  of  themselves  --   Y/hat  is  the 
matter  with  them?  They  were  so  sure  they  could  put  all  these 
things  into  effect,  and  now,  when  we  ask  them,  -  and  that  is 
all  we  are  supposed  to  do,  -  to  try  and  see  that  they  keep 
to  their  promises,  v;e  get  only  excuses.  Fuel  is  only  one 
quest! «Mi,  There  are  thousands  of  questions.  The  Prime 
Minister  went  on  the  air  and  settled  the  ;idiole  twenty-two 
points  in  fifteen  minutes,  and  now  he  has  taken  an  hour  and  a 
half  to  talk  himself  out  of  one  point.   Let  us  quit  making 

MR.  WILLIAl/i  DUCKVORTH  (Dovercourt )  :   I  want  to  tell 
you  — 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Order o 

MR.  DUCKvVORTH:  What  did  Hitler  do  for  the  people  of 

MR.   COOTTOR:   I  am  glad  you  mentioiBd  Hitler, 

L'IR.  SPEAKER:   Sergeant  at  Arms. 

Hon.  members,  v/e  can  get  along  happily.  There  is  no 
shortage  of  fuel  in  this  debate.   I  would  ask  the  hon.  members 
to  please  respect  the  Chair.  I  do  not  want  to  hove  to  raise 


eii  'bad  evB 







lo  eFiCqoe^ 



'     'J'iQiri 


saliBTt  o;|-  m 

.,  er- 

-iJW    tOi 

-  58  -  2-19-45. 

my  voice  again,  but  if  you  are  not  going  to  respect  the 
Chair  I  will  have  to  exercise  ny  authority.  I  do  not  care 
which  side  of  the  House  it  comes  from,  the  Chair  will  have 
to  be  respected.   I  would  ask  the  hon,  members  to  carry  on 
the  debate  without  personalities  and  without  heat. 

LiR.  CONNOR:   Every  time  vre   bring  something  up  are 
we  going  to  be  told  it  cannot  be  done  because  vie   have  no 
Provincial-Federal  conference  or  because  the  war  is  on?  I 
was  glad  to  hear  the  hon.  Prima  Minister  say,  in  1943,  he 
could  not  tell  ;/hen  the  end  of  the  war  was  going  to  be.  I 
imagine  he  thought  it  was  going  to  end  sooner  than  it  has, 
and  after  having  heard  his  information  on  certain  matters  I 
wondered  if  he  had  any  idea  who  was  going  to  win. 

IJR.  SPEAICER:  I  think  we  have  had  a  pretty  frank  dis- 
cussion. V/e  will  proceed  with  the  Orders  of  the  Day. 

im,   ALEXAI^IDER  A.  MacLEOD  (BellTOods):  Before  the 
Orders  of  the  Day  are  called,  I  wonder  if  the  hon.  l^ime 
Minister  (Mr.  Drev;)  would  clarify  a  statement  made  in  his 
province -v/ide  radio  address  of  August  9th  last  respecting  the 
Family  Allowances  Act  which  was  passed  at  the  last  Session 
of  the  Dominion  Parliament,  and  the  benefits  from  which  are 
to  become  operative  on  July  the  1st.   On  August  the  9th  the 
hon.  Prime  Minister  said,  and  I  quote:  .  "I  assure  you  that 
the  Government  of  Ontario  intends  to  do  everything  within 
its  pov/er  to  make  sure  that  this  iniquitous  bill  does  not 
go  into  effect.  v;e  will  not  concur  in  any  such  high-handed 

I  am  sure  the  members  of  the  House  xvould  be  inter- 
ested to  hear  from  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  now,  first  as  to 
whether  the  words  I  have  just  quoted  still  constitute  the 
considered  policy  of  the  Governnent,  and,  secondly,  if  so, 

erftJ"  iof^ne-i  o.t  ^r; 


no  v-iii. 

OVf,   I 


I      Tiio    ax  ■'Xi- 

■I    ,..  ,.., 

_„  -  :jrt:tx?rn5"' 

aJ  l^on  i)*ii>oo 

I  :»?♦- 


^li  iBilA  baa 
:   j>9U0i).now 

ens  doi.i'v!  noTT': 
©as  a^t.   fc 

>rrc   emoood  ot 


J  j:     i^v 


o*  B^  tain   ,wG'a'^»*«i 

'^-^  X^iloq  fiaiaJbianoo 

-  59  -  2-19-45 • 

Mr.  MacLeod. 

what  steps  has  the  Government  taken,   or  \Mhat  steps  does  it 
contemplate  taking  to  prevent  the  Family  Allov;ances  Act 
from  becoming  operative  in  the  province  of  Ontario.     Thirdly, 
will  the  Government,   at  the  Session,  ask  the  Legislature  to 
concur  in  the  course  of  action  it  has  taken,   or  proposes  to 
take,    in  the  matter? 

I  am  sure  the  hon.  members  will  agree  that   this  is 
a  matter  of  vital  public  iniportanoe,   particularly  in  view  of 
the  fact  that  thousands   of  Ontario  families  will  be   looking 
forward  to  theix-  first  benefits  under  the  Family     Allowances 
Act  within  the  next  few  months. 

May  I  say,    in  conclusion,  Mr.   Speaker,    that  all  of 
us   rather  expected  to  find  some  reference  to  this  subject  In 
His  Honour* s  speech  made  a  few  days  ago.     That  it  is  not 
even  mentioned — I  suggest  the  Government  has  altered  from  its 
previous  position.     If  that  is  the  case,   then  I  am  sure  that 
the  hon.  Prime  lAinister  will  not  object  if  we  seek  full 
clarification  of  this  vital  matter  to-day, 

laR.   DREW:     IJr.   Speaker,   the  Government  will  deal  v;ith 
this  at   the  proper  time.     The  debate  of  the  Speech  from  the 
Throne  starts  tomorrow.     The  hon.  member  miglit  have  been  wiser 
if  he  had  stopped  to  learn  the  facts,    instead  of  inserting 
advertisements  in  the  neivspapers  stating  exactly  what  was  go- 
ing to  be  done. 

IJR.  MacLEOD:     When  we  ask  a  straightforv/ard  question 
wo  are  entitled  to   a  straightforward  answer. 

MR.  SPEiU^R:     This  is  not  the  debate. 

Iffi.  IvIacLEOD:      I  have  asked  a  very  simple  question  of 
three  simple  parts.     First  of  all,   does  the   statement  I 
quoted  — 

IJiR,  DREi7:     I  am  fully  aware  of  the  question  that  has 
been  asked. 

_    or-    _ 

it  e 


at'  ©liftc/s- 

ant-,  ai'dc 
lo-  we!' 
gfi-  •  ■  j^w  as . 

?'Xo^;faBi  oritf  at  ^o^t- 

.com::.  -jaj'xv   lo  aaJJA.a:*-, 

;Jsri;t  ^oal  ori* 

.563  ew  li  Joet.a'o  3'c 

axljt  jnort'i  iioeaqS  ©ri. 

Tar?!?;-  xr3©.f 

3CI  l6*i:v 

.  t'-i   .noli  9fit 
to  ^o^tooJ:^:J:^»Xp^ 

no'X^'  . 

itiq  oriJ  4:*  airfit 

D;}-fl3-8  ad  J  aeof)   ♦XXi  I'xi'i     ♦sd'rtxjq  ^IqmJta  oes;(I;t 

a^ri  iaiit  aolfaevp  edi  lo  a':  ^.Lvt  sm  I     :W2IHa 

-   60  -  2-19-45. 

IJiR.   SPEAKER:     You  have  risen  before  the  Orders  of 
th&  Day,    and  you  have  made  a  statement,    and  the  hon.   Prime 
Minister  has  answered,    and  it   is  not   debatable.      That  Is 
the  end  of  it. 

I>iR.   MacLEOD:      The  hon.   Prime  Minister  has  not 
answered  the   question. 

LS.   SPEAKER:      You  are  out  of  order. 

MR.   MITCHELL  F.   HEPBURN    (Elgin) :      I  must   challenge 
the  attitude  you  are  taking,  Mr,   Speaker.      I  listened  with 
interest,   but  not  surprise,    to  the  unfair  and  unv/arranted 
reply  of  the  hon.   Prime  Liinister  to  the  hon.   member  for 
Bellwo  ods    (Mr.  MacLeod),      I  want  to  say  we  are  getting  sick 
and  tired  of  his  bullying  tactics  in  the  position  viiich  he 
holds  by  reason  of  the  sympathetic  and  \inderstanding  attitude 
given  by  the   other  members.      I  am  not  surprised  he  has  not 
shown  that  measure  of  appreciation;   rather,   he  has  brazenly 
complained  that  he   is  going  to  pursue  his  platform,    regard- 

Lffi.    SPEAISIR:     What  are  you  rising  on? 

Do  you  rule  I  am  out  of  order? 

I  grant  you  you  have   certain  privileges. 

Are  you  ruling  I  am  out  of  order? 

MR.   ?;iLLIiiM  DUCOORTH   (Dovercourt)  :      Yes. 

MR.   HEPBURN:      You  are  not  the   Speaker.      I  think  the 
time  has  come  to  challenge  this  honourable  gentleman  who 
cliooses  the  autocratic  attitude.     I  want  to  say  a  proper 
answer  should  be  given.      It  is   true,    as   the  hon.   Prime  Minister 
pointed  out,   we  are  small  in  number,   but  we  do  represent  a  lot 
of  the  people  in  the  province  of  Ontario,   and  I  vrill  say  we  are 
going  to  see  to  it  from  now  on  that  this  Legislature  and  "Old 
Man  Ontario"  are  not  going  to  be  unduly  crucified  on  the 
tv/isted  cross  of  reactionary  Toryism, 

1^.    HEl^BURN 


'AiT   f^-;.t. 



.  aaal 






-  61  -  2-19-45. 

VSR,   SPEAKER:  Orders  of  the  Day, 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Order  No.  2. 

CLERK  OF  TIIS  HOUSE:   Order  No.  2,  second  reading  of 
Bill  No.  25,  "An  Act  to  provide  for  the  voting  of  Active 
Service  Voters  at  a  general  election  to  the  Assembly," 

HON.  LESLIE  S.  BLACKWEIL  (Attorney  General):  In  ris- 
ing to  speak  on  the  principle  of  an  Act  to  provide  for  the 
voting  of  Active  Service  Voters  at  a  general  election  to  the 
Assembly,  I  v/ould  first  refer  the  members  of  the  Legislature 
to  the  recoiniaei-dations  of  the  Select  Committee  of  the 
Elections  Act.  They  are  found  on  pages  12,  13  and  14  of  the 
report,  which,  no  doubt,  you  have  all  examined. 

As  indicated  by  these  pages  of  the  report,  at  the  very 
first  sittings  of  that  Committee  held  last  September  the 
unanimity  of  opinions  was  reached  imoBdiately  that  never 
again  in  this  province  should  \'ie   have  the  battle  of  proxy 
voting  by  the  Active  Service  Forces  experienced  in  the 
mid-summer  election  of  1943.  Y/e  all  on  that  Committee  appear- 
ed to  come  to  an  immediate  agreement  on  the  principle  that 
there  should  be  a  direct  vote  of  the  Active  Services  in  the 
event  of  another  wartime  election  in  the  province  of  Ontario, 
and  also  that  the  principles  as  to  hov;  such  a  vote  might  be 
taken  were  well  settled  by  the  Dominion  Act  and  Regulations 

I  should  make  reference  to  the  Dominion  Act,  It  is  a 

comparatively  short  Act  that  contains,  in  all,  some  twelve 

sections  which  provide  two  types  of  voting. 

One:  Proxy  voting  on  the  part  of  those  who  are 

held  as  prisoners  of  war,  who  are  not  avail- 
able for  the  purpose  of  having  their  votes 
taken  by  direct  msans. 

Two:  A  direct  vote  by  casting  of  ballots  by  those 
on  Active  Service. 

The  regulations  implement  the  mechanics  of  taking  the 

.Y«CT.  p4i3  rlO    Zli 

,8    .  o* '■••"•• 

">   e»6ivain 


6115-   "i. 


IB  ova^ 

a  a    vjiz^.xic-  vc" 

BftO  uc'i 

loa  ©I" 


-Xiij-VE  cTon  oTc   -jdiiT  ,3Jaw  lo  ei^np^liq'  es  jblerl 
ee^ov  lie-  v^sif  lo  oeoqWq^  ^.t  ^<^t'  aXd^ 

•  sxtfisi:  &tie%)tb  neiiflJ'-- 

'  .od'iyt^c.  evi#oA  no- 

;  V 


r      -J      UtIC; 



^licifid^  '10  aoins, 

lorni    e.rroi*; 



-  62  -  2-19-45, 

Mr.  Blackwell. 

votes.   First  of  all,  it  provides  for  the  establishment 
of  territories,  with  returning  officers  for  those 
territories,  according  to  xihat   the  distribution  of  the 
Armed  Services  may  be  at  the  time  an  election  might  be 
called.   It  also  provides  for  the  utilization  of  the 
officials,  officers  of  the  Armed  Services,  to  act  as  sleputy 
returning  officers. 

Now,  it  is  readily  understood  by  your  Committee 
that  there  was  a  great  distinction  in  the  position  in  v/hich 
the  Dominion  found  itself  in  passing  such  an  Act,  and  that 
in  which  the  Provincial  Legislature  found  itself.  In  the 
first  place,  the  Dominion  Government  unquestionably  has 
full  power  to  designate  and  order  members  of  the  Services 
to  act  as  deputy  returning  officers.  Such  a  power,  of 
course,  is  completely  lacking  in  the  province  of  Ontario. 

Now,  it  was  in  view  of  the  situation  that  the  Select 
Committee  recognized  that  under  no  circumstances  could  it 
effectively  combat  a  wartime  election  in  which  it  v/ould  take 
a  direct  vote  of  the  Services  unless  the  Committee  —  and 
through  that  Committee  this  Legislature-¥/as  assured  of  co- 
operation by  the  Dominion  Government  along  the  line  of  Domin- 
ion regulations.  For  that  reason,  a  sub-committee  of  the 
Select  Comraittee  was  constituted,  and  that  sub-committee  went 
to  Ottawa  accompanied  by  election  officials  of  the  province 
of  Ontario,  and  held  conferences  directed  to  secure  the 
desired  cooperation.   Discussions  were  held  between  the  re- 
presentative of  your  committee  and  the  Llinister  of  the  Crown 
at  Ottawa  designated  for  that  puipose,  and  between  our 
election  officials  and  Dominion  election  officials,  and  I  feel 
I  should  now  table,  on  the  secom  reading  of  this  bill,  the 
correspondence  that  passed  between  myself,  as  Chairman  of  the 

•H-s  -  sa  - 


[aHdniiehiiS  ''Tol  asfiivoaq  oi   »XXb  lo  ataxia       .ae*ov 
>-      Sri.'  .iiJfi>^  aebirotq  oalB  ;t"I      .f)eIIfio 

■  »    >•'  ' 

liaxiiv.'  xjx  nox.  oxjoiixwaiu   jijtn;  .mit 

foii  I  aaaq"  rri  lioBc^  aolnimoil  o-dl' 

^nrjo't' -^x/tcrL  BlDntTorr*!  lix'.v;  at 

aeolvioa  efld"  lo  e^edasm  i©Mo  Ikia  djansiBeb  o;^  lowoq  XIi/1 

lo...  ,.T"'"'  -    j8  jw.  w      .:...■  .tiffraf)  bb  toa  oj 

,.,  ,    -iVliBino-'iO  ©onivoiq   9rfJ  ifl  i3Ui;iui3i  YieJ-vyiqxai^   si    .oattKoo 
:*09lea  a.^J^  iof.i'Butit  edit  to  welv  ni  '1    »woM 

>•   ,•■  '  ■■      •■  '"^ 

X);^p  -^  eaJd^Jx.  ■'"'«♦  I'm; 'b©i> ivi«e  erf  'oeili)  « 

-00    In    !^ r  /-fewoari* 

r-aJtooC  fiois  iJ'iioininsvoO  noiniiao'  {cf  nottBioqo 

edt  t!7..eet^ti^'szfyo-dv^'-a '\tio&&9^  i&dt  to?.      .  anol^fllt/nei  noi 

,  ;  oocivoiq  sra  rloJtJbsi'b  i,(i  boinaqaoaoc  avaitG  o) 

■U,    -   1 


'lift  csoc©ioT:noo   bioti  brjs    ,ottB,&aO  to 

.lost  I  Jjfi^  ,«8li3ii>J  >j:5'03lo  noliixxiou   - j  uoiioole 

,  addf;  ^XXxrf- alil;r  to  §iiii)Beri'  iJtiaooB  edi  no    .©Icffld-  won  filuoria  I 
■: ,  »f[;t  to   nairjiia.v     ,.„   ^.^..:—  iiebwcfed  J&eBBjsq  tud^  aonabn.oaz&T'ioo 

-  63  -  2-19-45. 

I;lr,  Blackwell, 

Select  Comiaittee,  and  the  Hon.  Norman  McLarty,  the  Minister 

designated  for  the  piirpose  by  the  Dominion  Governiaent, 

For  the  information  of  the  Legislature,  I  will  read 

the  correspondence.  This  is  a  letter  passing  from  me,  as 

Chairman,  to  Mr.  hlcLarty: 

"Ottavra,  November  26,  1944, 

"The  Hono  Norman  A.  McLarty,  r.„  C. , 
Secretary  of  State, 

"Dear  L'ro  McLarty: 

On  behalf  of  the  Committee  of  the 
Ontario  Legislature,  of  v;hich  I  am  Chairman, 
and  on  behalf  of  myself,  I  wish  to  express 
appreciation  of  the  manne-T  in  which  you  were 
kind  enough  to  facilitate  matters  at  our 
conference  yesterday  morning. 

"The  proposal  then  made  on  behalf  of 
my  Committee  is  that  my  Committee  recommend  to 
the  Legislature  of  the  province  of  Ontario  a 
Statute  adapting,  as  nearly  as  may  be  in  the 
circumstances,  the  provisions  of  the  recent 
Dominion  Legislation  for  the  talcing  of  the 
Service  vote  in  the  event  of  a  wartime  election 
being  held  in  the  Province  of  Ontario,, 

"Following  our  earlier  conference  of 
yesterday,  our  officials  met  v;ith  the  Dominion 
Election  officials,  and,  as  vrell,  with  officials 
from  the  Defence  Department  for  Army,  Navy  and 
Air.  As  a  result  of  this  latter  conference 
between  officials,  I  am  informed  that  no  difficul- 
ty was  experienced  in  determining  that  full  co- 
operation by  Dominion  officials  in  talcing  an 
overseas  vote  in  the  event  of  an  election  in 
Ontario  during  the  war  v/ould  be  experienced.   I 
feel  I  should  point  out,  however,  that  at  the 
latter  conference  yesterday  Colonel  MacDermid, 
for  the  Army,  did  raise  the  question  that  he  did 
not  feel  that  he  should  initiate  such  a  recommenda- 
tion to  his  Llinister,  but  that  on  his  Minister's 
request  for  a  report  he  v;as  prepared  to  so  advice. 

"I  appreciate  very  much  that  you  feel 
that  on  behalf  of  your  Government  you  are  able  to 
confirm,  v/ith  rae,  for  our  Ontario  Gomniittee,  that 
if  our  Committee  should  see  fit  to  recommend  to  the 
Legislature  of  the  Province  of  Ontario  legislation 
as  indicated  above,  that  the  Legislature  of  the 
Province  of  Ontario  may  rest  assured  of  the  co- 
operation of  the  Dominion  Government  in  the  event 
of  the  necessity  of  talcing  the  Service  vote. 

86   ,9a  aioi' 



to  dc 

,  b<j'i»<.i  ^. 


■ViirT  tdtlQ-: 


Tflw  e 

«   •rol 

■  V    Ji^    %-■    -.     ^     ^'-.^  i.T 



ijjo\;  to  llBrff> 
.;i/o  lol    .eai  il 




-  64  -  2-19-45o 

Mr,  Blackwell. 

"I  quite  appreciate  that  such  assurance  is, 
of  course,  on  the  assumption  that  any  variation 
in  Ontario  regulations  governing  the  actual 
mechanics  of  taking  such  vote  will  have  to 
be  worked  out  between  our  respective  officials." 

To  that  letter  this  reply  v/as  received  from  Mr» 

McLarty,  dated  November  28,  1944: 

"Ottawa,  November  28,  1944, 

"Dear  LiTo  Blackvrell; 

In  connection  vrith  our  various  conversations 
in  Ottawa  and  your  letter  of  to-day's  date  relative 
to  the  procedure  to  be  adopted  for  the  taking  of  a 
serviCF  vote  for  the  Province  of  Ontario  in  the 
event  of  a  v/artime  election,  I  appreciate  your 
kind  expression  of  appreciationo 

"Your  letter  indicates  you  would  like  some 
confirmation  to  present  to  the  sub- committee  of 
the  Ontario  House  that  if  it  recommends  to  the 
Legislature  the  adoption  of  legislation  to  secure 
the  vote  of  \7tir  Service  Electors  in  accordance 
v;ith  the  procedure  which  the  Dominion  adopted  under 
the  v/ar  Service  Electors'  Act,  it  might  rest 
assured  that  the  cooperation  of  the  Dominion 
Government  would  be  forthcomings 

"There  is  only  one  possible  question  that 
could  arise,  and  that  is  the  necessity  of  a 
definite  determination  of  the  Ontario  voters 
from  those  who  are  entitled  to  vote  in  a  federal 
election.  This,  of  course,  is  purely  a  matter 
of  procedure,  and  you  suggest  it  vjill  present 
no  difficultyo 

"In  view  of  tiiat  fact,  I  think  you  may  rest 
assured  of  the  cooperation  of  the  Dominion 
Government  in  the  event  of  taking  a  Service  vote 

during  the  wartime  periodo 

"Yours  sincerelyy 

"N.  A.  i.:cLarty.»» 
I  should  state  to  the  Legislature  at  this  time  that 
it  v/as  the  opinion  and  the  recommendation  of  the  Ontario 
Committee  that  there  should  be  one  fundamental  departure  in 
the  principal  of  taking  the  active  service  vote,  as  between 
the  Dominion  Regulations,  as  passed,  and  the  Ontario  Regula- 
tions,  as  proposed©   That  distinction  is  this,  that  under 
the  Dominion  regulations  the  soldier  takes  an  affidavit 









-  65  -  2-19-45 

Mr,  Blackwell 

whieh  is  on  the  baok  of  an  envelope »  and  this  ballot  is  than 
plaoed  in  that  envelope  containing  that  affidavit  signed  by 
him,  and  then  put  in  the  ballot  box*   Whatever  that  envelope 
nay  do,  it  identifies  him  with  that  ballot  contained  therein. 

There  has  been  a  most  definite  feeling  that  that 
system,  at  least,  paves  the  way  to  invading  the  secrecy  of 
the  ballott.   The  Ontario  committee  was  of  the  opinion,  and 
indicated  to  the  Dominion  officials,  that  it  was  satisfied 
to  have  the  soldier  in  his  unit,  wherever  the  territory  may 
be,  take  a  simple  form  of  affidavit  that  would  cover  the  fact 
of  his  eligibility , at  the  time  he  became  an  active  service 
nan, to  vote  in  a  certain  constituency  in  Ontario.    And,  in 
the  taking  of  that  affidavit  in  simple  form, covering  his 
eligibility,  and  covering  the  constituency,  it  was  thought 
perfectly  safe  he  should  then  vote  by  direct  vote  which  goes 
In  the  ballot  box.   That  is  the  only  distinction*  in  prin- 
ciple, between  Regulation  "A*,  under  the  Dominion  Act,  and 
the  proposed  regulations  under  the  Ontario  Act, 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  I  come  to  the  rather  simple  prin- 
ciples outlined  in  the  bill  before  the  Legislature.   I  am 
now  dealing  with  the  bill  as  it  appears  in  the  members • 
books  --  I  mention  this  now  to  prevent  confusion  —  and  the 
leaders  of  the  different  parties  represented  in  the  Legis- 
lature have  in  their  possession  a  copy,  to  which  is  appended 
a  proposed  amendment.   I  willleave  that  for  the  moment,  and 
deal  with  the  bill  as  in  the  books  of  the  Members. 

The  first  principle  is  that  the  active  service  voter 
Is  entitled  to  vote  either  within  or  outside  the  province  of 
Ontario,  wherever  he  may  be.   I  do  not  think,  Mr.  Speaker, 
that  I  need  to  labour  that  principle;  it  is  so  generally 
accepted  to-day  by  members  on  all  sides  of  the  House. 

.   IlewjioeXfl   .iM 

.;  ttedi   8l   &oLl&d   Bttii  ToaB  \9q6ldvae  -tiB  "io  ^otd'  ^di'nd-'rt'^r&ftiii 

;  ^tf  £) eagle  tflVBMtts  ;raWd^,  S«?  ,vnf>   l^flilf  tt/*'^«i!£q 

,  erolsvjae    •  -^  ~.^..-  »^-^u.  ;,ri^  a^   ^^,     neririBofl 'iiWld 

.  a i0!i 81I J  ,i)e n iB;r  r  •  aii^  cc  x  v  ia i: ri  e •Jbli iatbt   it' ' \'6b'^'  Mjam 

tBAt  iBcif  SiiUeeT  oiiat^^b  iB6a  s  aa-ad  efld'  elttrfT 

to  Yo»t»»«  erf^  saifeflVHl  ot  x^*  "df  B«tBqt  ,>iiBeI'  ifa^-^isiii^a 

■  haa.  i^ablnlqo  9t^.  ew  BBit^limoooitibikO  dilT        .iftorJCW 'ill* 

.  \fliir  ^■iGJX'nsw    isnj    ze^aioiivi.  ,^.'  telbioe  o::j   aVCii  uJ 

#o«ft  ©riJ  rtevoo  Muow  .tori*  tlrBbitlB  to  attol  Sltifltla-'B'^^SIli**  il^tf 

•  ©Otviaa   BTi^^oe  nr   j^KBoecf  erf  eral?'  erfit   r*-3,  v*i:it(^'M^io^J;iri'"lo 

eJ:d  anircavr  LqmU  tvabi^'iB^Bdt  \o  iaHii  Mt 

;.aeo3 vif a ifihr.  94ov  *e&xli>  yd  adov  aeii*  Jbiuoil«  exi  elAt  -xXieWt*!^ 

"ifft'iqattaoltBJttSBltbxlaoBAi  al  tactT       .zO(f  teif«d  i^*  'al 

jbifiA  «^t»A  aotaimoa  9iii  fbau  t**!"  aoiiaixjrj^H  nae<ti^ad  ^«trX<ito 

.toA  olxa^aO  axliT  la&au  efiol*<l0S»^ 'ft^Kxtotq  ail* 

TffJbiq  aiqatia  leffJart  ad>  o*  aiioe  I    ,ieQ<aect8   .iM  ,woH 

flca.  I       »9X"  "'"^ts&u.   ^-.rv   ^  *v^  X .,..   :-.*iJ  ©ri;^   fii  5'aniI*irD  eaiiilb 

'eietfmsffi  eii*  at  aiaaqqi  *?  IXltf  aifi  tiitm  saiXii^b  vbtx 

arlit  bnB   —  nolBwlnoo  *n©V€<'i  am  I   --  a^odd 

•^aXs®^  «rf«^  ^■'^  i>e*n'  '-oq  Sn9ta\tt'o  aiii  ic  -aTafiaiiX 

feebaeqcpB  el  doiriw  ^qoD  a  noieraaaoq  iled*  al   avAri  aiv^'aX 

bKfi  t^iiafiiQia  9xt*  'xol  s^fiiid-  ova^XIIlw  I       .  ^flaodbrflaigrs  b*«oqoTq  a 

»&%9dmm  &Ai  to  esfodd  erlir  nl  as  XXld   ail*  Attv  Xaaft 

r^iov  «9lv-7aa  dTl*os  ed*   *0£[*  al    dXqiaaliq  *8iii  eilT 

lo  eonlTo-iq  eri*  dbie^tiro  10  atri*iw  teri*!©  a*ov  0*  iel^ilna  at 

,ip;^i>©qe  .iM   .Jiairf*  *oa  ofe  I        »Bti  xBta  ari  -ievaieuiv   ««>^tiBJtt6 

"^CXXaianas  08  el   *1    ;aXqi6niiq  isAi  toodaX  6*  JSlacta  I   isAi 

.eeuoH  &Ai   to  aeMs  lie  ^daiBm  xd  t^b*<}*  bBiqe^oi 

-  65  -  2-19-45.  Blackwell. 

The  second  principle  that  the  bill  covers  is  that  the 
■vote  of   the  Active  Service  voter  is  to  be  for  a  candidate  in 
the  riding  to  which  the  Active  Service  voter  belongs  at  the 
time  of  establishin{i  his  ri/jht  to  vote  as  an  Active  Service 

The  third  principle  of  trie  bill  is  l;hat  it  proviaes, 
in  its  preseijt  form,  that  the  Chief  lileotion  Cfficer  is  given 
the  paver  tu   uiake  regulations  deil  ning  what  an  active  service 
voter  is  and  otherwise  as  set  forth  in  provisions  (a)  and  (e) 
of  .-section  2  for  the  better  carrj/ing  out  of  the  Act, 

There  is  another  principle  vdiich  is  necessary,  and 
that  IS  bhat  the  Chief  lUection  Officer,  aside  froa  the  power 
to  i-e commend  regulations  to  the  Lieutenant  Governor  in  Council, 
is  given  an  over-riding  emergency  authority  to  make  directions 
in  the  case  of  emergency. 

The  fourth  and  last  principle  generally  contained  in 
the  bill  is  that  the  Act  is  limited  to  a  general  election,  only, 
and  is  not  applicable  zo   the  holding  of  a  by-election.   It 
also  ; . ovides  that  the  application  of  the  Act  will  be  limited 
to  tne  duration  of  the  present  war  and  six  months  thereafter. 

it  is  not  necessary,  Mr,,  Speaker,  that  I  should  deal 
with  the  Question  of  the  power  to  make  regulations,  being  one 
of  tho  principles  concerned  in  Section  2  of  tJie  bill.   I 
riLi.^:;ht  323''  tiiat  under  anv  ordinary  circiomstances  I  would  be 
oompleteli'  opposed  to  the  delegation  of  legislation  that  is 
co.iiained  in  that  section.   It  is  axiomatic  that  when  the 
object  and  purpose  of  legislation  lend  themselves  to  being 
crya  ia.lli'^'.^d  in  a  statute  the  legislation  should  be  found 
in  tjie  bill  itself,  and  it  follov/s  by  ordinary  principle 
pertaining  to  delegated  legislation  that  the  proper  field 
for  delegated  legislation,  -  that  is,  delegating  to  the 





-  67  -  £-19-45 o 

Mr,  Blackwe.. 

Executive  Council,  or  to  some  other  body,  the  power  to  make 
regulations  —  shpuld  relate  to  those  subjects  not  capable  of 
being  crystalized  in  permanent  form  in  an  Acto 

Under  ordinary  circumstances,  if  the  legislature  of  this 
province  had  power  without  consultation  with  the  dominion 
authorities  to  enact  complete  regulations,  the  position  would 
be  -  those  regulations  are  really  capable,  under  those  cir- 
cumstances of  immediate  crystalization  in  a  Statute.   We  have, 
however,  this  problem  facing  us,  that  first  of  all  at  our  con- 
ference in  Ottawa  it  was  understood,  by  reason  of  the  particular 
circumstances  that  existed,  that  regulations  which  the  Dominion 
Government  wcul d  undertake  to  implement,  as  far  as  their  services 
were  eonffierned,  could  only  be  prepared  in  consultation,  and  that 
it  must  be  open  to  the  Dominion  Government  with  relation  to  our 
proposed  regulation,  to  say  whether  or  not  it  would  implement  it 
as  proper. 

Now,  I  should  say  at  this  point,  that  on  Friday  last,  Mro 
Speaker,  the  hon.  leader  of  the  opposition  (Mr,  Jolliffe)  wuite 
properly  drew  to  my  attention  that  he  felt  in  principle  that  the 
power  to  regulate  under  this  act  was  too  broad.   With  that  I 
immediately  agreed,  but  following  that,  there  has  been  a  discus^ 
sion  between  the  hon.  leader  of  the  Opposition  (Mro  Jolliffe)  and 
myself,  as  to  how  we  might  narrow  that  power  of  delegation,  with- 
out,  at  the  same  time,  destroying  the  flexibility  that  must  continuf 
to  be  in  the  power  to  regulate,  by  reason  of  the  necessity  of  mak- 
ing arrangements  with  the  Dominion  government.    I  now  wish  to  ig 
give  notice  that  in  an  effort  to  meet  the  point  raised  by  the  hono 
leader  of  the  opposition  (Mr.  Jolliffe)  -  not  now,  but  dealing 
with  the  Bill  in  Committee  -  that  I  propose  b1  to  move  amendments 
as  follows:   that  in  the  second  line  of  section  2,  sub-section 
(1),  after  the  words  "Chief  Election  Officer**,  we  propose  to  in- 
sert the  words,  •♦  Appointed  under  the  Election  Act, 1945*  and  in  the 




—    Htj 

A"     tZblOTS 

-  68  -  2-19-45. 

Mr,  Blackwell. 

second  line  after  the  word  "regulations",  at  the  end  of  the 

second  line,  we  propose  to  add  the  words  "for  obtaining  the 

votes  of  Active  Service  voters,  including  prisoners  of  war, 


It  is  further  proposed  that  a  new  sub-section  3  be 

added  to  Section  2,  as  follows: 

"(3)  Regulations  made  under  this  section 
shall  have  no  effect  unless  the  Chief  Election 
Officer  has  certified  over  his  signature  that  in 
the  preparation  of  the  regulations  he  has  consulted 
with  the  Chief  Electoral  officer  for  Canada  and 
that  the  regulations  are,  subject  to  Section  3,  as 
nearly  as  may  be  in  the  same  form  and  to  the  same 
effect  as  The  Canadian  ^7ar  Service  Yoting  Regulations, 
1944,  aad  The  Canadian  Prisoners  of  \7ar  Voting 
Regulations,  1944,  being  Schedules  A  and  B 
respectively  to  an  Act  to  provide  regulations 
enabling  Canadian  War  Service  electors  to  exercise 
their  franchise,  and  Canadian  prisoners  of  war  to 
vote  by  proxy,  at  any  general  election  held  during 
the  present  war,  also  to  provide  amendments  to  the 
Dominion  Elections  Act,  1938 j  consequential  to  such 
regulations,  or  made  necessary  by  the  advent  of  the 
said  war,  being  chapter  26  of  the  Statutes  passed 
at- the  fifth  session  of  the  nineteenth  Parliament 
of  Canada." 

Then  to  clarify  the  one  divergence  in  principle  I 

have  recommended  for  our  regulations  in  Ontario  a  new  Section 

3  to  be  inserted,  which  will  read  as  follows: 

"(3)  Notwithstanding  any  of  the  other 
provisions  of  this  Act,  regulations  made  herexinder 
shall,  except  in  the  case  of  prisoners  of  war,  pro- 
vide for  depositing  the  voting  paper  of  an  active 
service  voter  in  a  ballot  box  in  the  presence  of 
such  active  service  voter." 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  before  closing  what  I  have  to  say 

on  the  principle  of  this  bill  I  want  to  say  this,  which  I  am 

authorized  to  say  on  behalf  of  the  Government;  upon  this 

bill  becoming  the  law  of  the  province  of  Ontario  the  Govern-. 

ment  recognizes  that  the  regulations  should  be  settled  and 

should  be  enacted  by  council,  and  I  should  add  to  that  that 

by  reason  of  the  Regulation  Act  that  now  exists  in  the  prov- 



:.v   eoivi 


-r"   Oft-*' 
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.  ii'.  a-a'i'. 

,  ano 


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rlw  « 66^198X12   ecf  ot  S 

'3  a 


jsd  Ilicf 

joene  so  i)iiJOda 
Bli/goH  erl;r  "to  aoaasi  yd 

-  69  -  2-19-45. 

Mr.  Blackwell, 

ince  of  Ontario  such  regulations,  to  be  law,  have  to  be 
registered  with  the  Registrar  and  become  a  matter  of  public 
record  in  this  proyincoo 

The  second  statement  that  I  am  authorized  to  make  on 
behalf  of  the  Government  is  that  whilst  proceeding  with  the 
regulations  the  Government  would  (appreciate  the  opportunity 
of  having  the  advice  and  assistance  of  the  Election  Committee 
that  has  just  reported  to  the  Legislature  on  the  s ettling  of 
the  regulations  before  they  are  enacted  by  council. 

With  these  two  statements,  as  well  as  the  discussion 
of  the  principles  of  the  bill,  I  have  great  pleasure  now,  Mr. 
Speaker,  in  moving  that  "An  Act  to  provide  for  the  Voting  of 
Active  Service  Voters  at  a  General  Election  to  the  Assembly" 
be  now  read  a  second  timeo 

MRo  EDWARD  B.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
First  of  all,  I  want  to  say  on  the  second  reading  of  this 
bill  that  the  members  of  this  Opposition  group  are  entirely 
in  favour  of  the  principle  upon  which  the  Select  Comjnittee  wets 
in  xinanimous  agreement  that  the  direct  vote  should  be  extended 
for  the  purpose  of  a  wartime  election, to  the  members  of  the 
three  s ervices  and  auxiliary  services.  I  want  to  say,  also, 
that  I  think  some  constructive  work  was  done  by  the  Select 
Committee,  and  that  the  Attorney  General  deserves  a  great  deal 
of  credit  for  presiding  over  that  work  with  fairness  and  with 

The  bill  before  the  House  is  one  of  the  results  of 
the  work  of  the  Select  Committee,  and  there  is,  I  think,  more 
than  one  principle  involved.   I  am  very  glad,  indeed,  and  I  am 
sure  that  all  members  of  the  House,  -  at  least  most  members  of 
the  House,  -  will  be  very  glad  that  we  ladopt  the  principle  of 
the  direct  vote  for  the  war  service  elector  in  the  riding 



-  ea  - 


Toqgo  oil  J  etf> 






Bsw  ee. . 

beba&^xe  eU  ^^ 


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£09Jb  . 


to     3%' 

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3i    c. 




■^  =»  eeidi 




^ojtvisa  tarn  Bdi  lot  etor  tOBtib  ed^ 

-  70  -  2-19-45. 

Mr.  Jolliffe. 

from  which  he  enlisted,  I  may  say  that  there  are  other 
courses  which  were  never,  I  think,  seriously  considered  by 
the  Committee,  "because  we  saw  no  merit  in  them.  The  proxy 
vote,  the  system  which  was  in  effect  during  the  last  pro- 
vincial election  and  is  still  in  effect  to-day,  was  not 
satisfactory  either  in  theory  or  in  practice,  and  it  was 
without  any  difficulty,  at  all,  that  \^e   came  to  the  definite 
conclusion  it  would  have  to  go. 

In  other  provinces,  the  province  of  Alherta  and  the 
province  of  Saskatchewan,  wartime  legislation  has  given 
Active  Service  electors  outside  the  province  the  right  to 
elect  representatives  of  their  own  to  the  Legislatures  of 
those  provinces,  I  think  that  most  members  of  the  House 
will  agree  with  me  that  it  is  not  a  satisfactory  or  a 
demoncratic  procedure.  The  effect  of  the  legislation  in 
Alberta  and  Saskatchewan  was  that  war-service  electors  out- 
side those  provinces  had  no  opportunity  to  exercise  their 
franchise  in  any  way  until  many  weeks  sifter  the  general 
election  was  all  overo  After  all,  the  principal  issue  before 
the  people  in  a  general  election  is  which  party  shall  form 
the  next  government  of  the  province,  and  the  war-service 
electors  of  Alberta  and  Saskatchewan  had  no  choice  in  that 
matter,  whatever.  All  they  were  given  as  a  matter  of  charity 
was  to  send  three  of  their  own  representatives  many  weeks 

The  course  upon  which  we  were  agreed  in  the  Select 
Committee  v/as  an  entirely  different  one,  the  principle  being 
that  the  war-service  elector,  no  matter  where  he  should  be, 
should  have  the  right  to  vote  for  the  representative  in  his 
own  riding  and  in  that  way  to  influence  the  result  of  the 
election  just  as  fully  and  just  as  freely  as  any  civilian 



saw    dOXiiW 



to    :■ 

fl    to    TT.' 


aetas  IXiw 
.  ©'ii-'osooiq  oxjiJioiioxaQX) 





-.I  9 


;  »©d'*iinffloO 


/ne  as  viea'rt 


-  71  -  2-19-45.  Jolliffe. 

elector,  with  the  single  exception  of  the  prisoners  of  war 
for  whom  it  is  impossible  to  provide  the  direct  vote. 

The  Attorney  General  has  e:^lained  some  of  the 
special  difficulties  which  existed  in  connection  with  this 
legislationo  I  think  he  has  made  it  clear  that  we  cannot 
pass  this  legislation  in  exactly  the  same  form  as  it  passed 
through  the  Dominion  Parliament.  When  the  Dominion  House, 
a  little  more  than  a  year  ago,  I  think,  undertook  to  provide 
the  direct  vote  as  a  result  of  work  done  by  the  Select 
Committee  of  the  House  of  Commons,,  their  recanmendations 
were  implementeJ  by  the  introduction  of  an  Act,  Chapter  26 
of  the  1944  Dominion  Statutes,  I  believe,  and  by  attaching 
to  that  Act  a  schedule,  the  detailed  regulations  of  \7hich 
would  govern  the  taking  of  the  vote.  NoWo  those  regula- 
tions are  generally  satisfactory,  and^  as  explained  by  the 
Attorney  General,  with  one  or  two  exceptions  we  believe 
that  they  should  be  extended  to  the  wartime  provincial 
elections  for  Ontario,  but,  as  the  Attorney  General  suggest- 
ed, we  are  not  able  to  legislate  in  the  same  way  as  the 
Dominion  Parliament,  to  require  commanding  officers  overseas 
or  servants  of  the  Dominion  Government,  anywhere,  to  carry 
out  v;hat  is  needed  to  be  done  under  those  voting  regula- 
tions, ^mything  we  do  in  that  regard  must  therefore  arise 
out  of  an  agreement  between  this  province  and  the  Dominion. 

Now,  assurance  has  been  given  by  the  Secretary  of 
State  for  the  Dominion,  and  other  officials,  to  the  Attorney 
General,  as  Chairman  of  our  Select  Committee,  that  the 
Dominion  authorities  will  cooperate.  On  the  other  hand,  Mr. 
Speaker,  we  find  ourselves  in  this  position,  that  the  House 
is  to-day  considering  a  bill  which  does  not  actually  provide 



seuoll   ex: 

-  72  -  2-19-45 o 

MTo  Jolliffe, 

tlie  machinery  for  war-service  electors  to  vote  in  wartime 
elections,  which  in  effect  fioes  little  more  than  author- 
ize the  passing  of  an  Order  in  Council  subject  to  certain 
conditions  which  will  enable  that  machinery  to  be  set  upo 
Now,  I  fully  appreciate  the  difficultyo   I  must  say  thiB, 
howeverj  that  the  most  satisfactory  form  in  which  this 
legislation  could  be  introduced  would  be  a  bill  similar,  in 
some  v;ays,  to  the  bill  before  the  House,  similar,  in  some 
ways,  to  the  Act  which  was  passed  by  the  Dominion  Parlia- 
ment, a  bill  recognizing  the  principle  of  the  direct  vote, 
with  two  schedvTes  attached  to  the  bill  setting  out,  in  de- 
tail, the  conduct  of  wartime  election  for  Active  Service 
voters,  and,  in  detail,  also„  the  provisions  with  respect 
to  proxy  votes  of  prisoners  of  war.  That,  I  think,  the 
Attorney  General  would  probably  agree  would  be  the  ideal, 
satisfactory  way  of  passing  this  legislatioUo  However,  he 
has  taken  the  position  that  it  is  difficult,  if  not  impos- 
sible, to  do  so  because  of  the  time  that  will  be  required 
to  reach  an  agreement  with  the  Dominion  approving  the 
regulations  which  we  desire  to  become  effective  and  to  ob- 
tain from  the  Dominion  the  necessary  Order  in  Council  op 
general  order  which  will  make  the  provisions  of  these  regula- 
tions mandatory  upon  all  servants  of  the  Dominion  Government. 

N0W5  it  has  been  explained  to  me  both  without  and 
within  this  House  that  the  Government  does  not  feel  there  is 
sufficient  time  to  get  that  job  done  during  this  Session, 
and  the  Government  therefore  feels  it  will  be  necessary  to 
provide  for  the  enacting  of  the  regulations  by  Order  in 
Coimcilo  In  principle,  I  think  that  is  wrong,  although  I 
realize  the  very  serious  difficulties  which  stand  in  our  way, 
and  before  I  conclude  to-day  I  therefore  wish  to  say,  speaking 





.iiq  15 

-  73  -  2-19-45. 

MTo  Jolliffe. 

not  only  for  myself  but  for  the  other  members  of  this  groupj 
that  we  "believe  an  effort  ought  to  be  made  to  draft  our  oum 
regulations,  to  agree  on  their  form  with  the  Dominion  authori- 
ties, and  to  obtain  the  necessary  Order  in  Council  or  other 
order  from  the  Dominion  authorities  in  order  to  implement 
those  regulations p  so  that  before  the  conclusion  of  this 
Session  the  regulations  xhemselves  can  be  attached  to  our 
Act  and  be  placed  on  our  Statute  Book  as  part  of  our  own 

It  is  probably  unnecessary  for  mo  to  explain  the 
importance  of  ("oaling  with  the  matter  in  that  way.  This 
legislation  is  of  very  fundament  a. L  importance.   I  believe  it 
affects  the  very  constitution  of  the  province,,  because  we  are 
here  dealing  with  the  franchise  that  ig  a  fundamental,  demo- 
cratic right  of  certain  citizens  of  Ontario,  and  as  it  touches 
our  constitution^  and  the  \7hole  fraiiework  of  government  in 
this  province,  and,  all  legislation  in  this  province,  it  is  a 
matter  which,  if  at  all  possible,  should  be  covered  by  legisla- 
tion duly  passed  through  this  House,  rather  than  by  Order  in 

My  concluding  word  is,  therefore,  a  plea  that  the 
administration  reconsider  the  decision,  and  make  an  attemp1&, 
which  I  realize  might  not  b©  a  successful  attempt,  —  but  an 
attempt,  at  least,  to  reach  the  necessary  agreement  with  the 
Dominion  Government  before  the  conclusion  of  this  Session, 
so  that  the  regulations  can  be  made  part  of  our  own  statuteo 

MRo  HERBERT  CONNOR  (Hamilton  East):   If  I  am  in  order, 
MTo  Speaker,  I  would  like  to  ask  the  hon.  Minister  a  question, 
I  am  not  familiar  with  this  bill.  I  was  not  a  member  of  the 
Committee,  but  I  understand  this  bill  is  to  apply  for  the 
duration  of  the  v;ar  and  for  six  months  afterwardSp  , 



i  ettB 





Liisu  i&ii&a 


,  ax\ 


-  74  -  2-19-45. 

May  I  ask  if  any  provision  has  teen  made  for  taking 
the  vote  of  soldiers,  should  we  have  an  army  of  occupation 
after  the  war?  If  that  is  so,  v/e  may  have  soldiers  over 
there  for  two  or  three  years  after  the  v/ar,  and  I  would  like 
to  ask  if  any  provision  has  been  made  to  take  their  votes. 

MR,  BLACKWELL:   LlTo  Speaker,  it  was  not  thought 
timely  to  try  and  deal  with  an  army  of  occupation  at  this 
point o  There  are  six  months  after  the  termination  of  the 
war  to  determine  what  the  actual  factors  are  viiich  the 
Election  Act  should  deal  with  at  that  time,  and  I  do  not  know 
that  I  am  at  liberty  to  say  that  the  committee  went  that  far, 
but  I  am  expressing  the  view  of  the  Government  in  presenting 
the  billo 

Lm.  WILLIAI5  J.  GRU13METT  (South  Cochrane):   I  have 
listened  with  a  great  deal  of  interest  to  what  has  been  said 
by  the  hon.  Minister  (Mro  Blackwell)  and  by  the  hon.  Leader 
of  the  Opposition  (MTc  Jolliffe),  and  I  agree  with  a  con- 
siderable amount  of  what  both  have  said,  b^t  I  think  we  are 
setting  a  precedent  which  should  not  be  allowed  in  passing 
a  bill  of  this  nature  without  the  necessary  schedules  attach- 
ed.  I  can  see  no  harm  in  laying  the  bill  over  for  a  month  or 
five  weeks.  We  will  be  here  for  some  considerable  time,  and 
if  the  proper  department  got  in  touch  with  the  necessary 
officials  in  Ottawa,  and  reached  an  agreement,  and  had  the 
Dominion  Government  then  set  that  agreement  out  by  Order  in 
Council,  permitting  us  to  add  the  necessary  schedules,  or 
more,  to  this  Act,  then  let  us,  when  we  consider  the  Act, 
have  the  regulations  that  will  constitute  the  regulations 
under  which  the  Election  Act  will  be  carried  out. 

I  think  it  is  very  necessary  that  these  regulations 
be  considered  by  this  House,  and  I  fear,  very  much,  allowing 



•B   I  Xf^M 



v  onlflnr  j-  low 


;    Jae- 

»/  e©-^ 

tfiarts  fi  rii^iw  bsflo^tEir 

••-«  +  r 




9B  fifto   I     .be 


u   e' 

s&as  3XSOI 



-.JJJE  -^-laT  ,-Ia? 

ieiai-  9cf 

~  74-a  -         2-19-45, 

llr,  Grummett. 

an  Act  to  pass  simply  with  five  or  six  clauses,  which 
perhaps  would  have  thirty  or  more  pages  of  regulations  to 
be  attached  to  it  later..   I  think  the  hon,  members  of  this 
House  should  have  the  regulations  before  them  in  the  shape 
in  which  they  will  be  added  to  the  bill, 

I  do  not  like  the  idea  of  delegating  to  the  Chief 
Election  Officer  the  powers  that  the  bill  here  stipulates. 
I  do  not  believe,  either,  that  the  Chief  Election  Officer, 
himself,  would  want  to  have  all  the  powers  which  have  been 
mentioned  here, 

I  woulf'  strongly  urge  that  the  hone  Attorney 
General  lay  the  bill  over  for,  say,  foixr  weeks,  and  in  the 
meantime  get  in  touch  with  the  Federal  authorities  to  see 
whether  or  not  a  hecessary  agreement  can  be  entered  into 
and  the  necessary  enactment  passed  by  the  Federal  Govern- 
ment allowing  us  to  add  the  regulations  that  are  required  with 
our  bill.   I  would  strongly  urge  that,  UVo   Speaker, 

I  feel  we  are  making  a  mistake  if  we  pass  this  bill 
without  having  these  regulations  before  uSo 

KR.  CYRIL  OVERALL  (Niagara  Falls):   I  wonder  if  a 
previous  speaker  would  clarify  a  statement  he  read  from  the 
correspondence.  I  believe  he  quoted  Colonel  McDermott  as 
saying  he  would  not  initiate  the  procedure  for  carrying  out 
the  Active  Service  vote,  but  would  wait  upon  the  hono 
Minister  to  initiate  this  procedure,, 

MR,   BlACmELL:     YeSj  I  shall  be  pleased  to  clarify  . 
that  statemento  The  hon»  member  will  recall  that  my  letter 
which  contained  that  statement  v;as  addressed  to  the  Hon^ 
Mr„  McLarty,  previous  to  receiving  his  reply,  and  we  thought 
the  two  governments  should  be  meticulous,  in  order  to  avoid 
the  possibility  of  misunderstanding,  and  there  ?;as  a  plain 


-  75  -  2-19-45 o 

indication  in  ray  letter  that  Mr.  McLarty  should  check  with 
the  hon.  Minister  of  National  Defence  before  giving  his 
reply,  and  Hon.  Mr,  McLarty  did  check,  and  was  authorized 
to  make  that  reply. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  second  time. 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister) :   I  move  the 
House  do  now  adjourno 

Motion  agreed  to  and  the  House  adjo\irned  at  4:55, 

"   76 



Toronto,  Ontario, 

Tuesday.  February  20,  1945, 

SPEAKER:     Honoui^ble  Y/illiem  Jo   Stewart,    C.BoE. 

The  Hoi  ;e  met  at  3  o^clocko 

Prayers o 

MR.  SPEAKER:  Presenting  peti-cions. 

Reading  and  receiving  petit ions o 

Reports  by  committees. 


Introduction  of  bills o 

HON.  LESLIE  E.  BLACKWELL  (Attorney  General) :   MTo 
Speaker,  I  move,  seconded  by  MTo   Frost  (Provincial  Treasurer), 
that  leave  be  given  to  introduce  a  bill  intituled  "The 
Voters'  List  Act,  1945,"  and  that  the  same  be  now  read  a  first 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time,, 

HON.  LESLIE  Eo  BLACMlfELL  (Attorney  General):  Mr<, 
Speaker,  I  move,  seconded  by  MTo  Drew  (Prime  Minister),  that 
leave  be  given  to  introduce  a  bill  intituled  "The  Election  Act, 
1945,"  and  that  the  same  be  now  read  a  first  time« 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  timeo 

MR.  EDWARD  B.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition):  Mr<» 
Speaker,  the  hon.  Attorney  General  has  already  referred  to 

-  77  -  2-20-45, 

these  bills,  but  I  wonder  if  he  would  give  a  word  of  e::?)lana- 
tion  to  the  House  about  the  two  at  the  present  timco 

MR.  BLACK7/ELL:  liTo  Speaker,  I  do  not  know  that  the 
hoHo  Leader  of  the  Opposition  (Mro  Jolliffe)  would  desire  me 
to  elaborate  at  all  on  these  bills  by  way  of  explanatioHo  I 
think  what  he  wants  me  to  say,  and  what  I  will  proceed  to 
say,  is  this:   these  bills  are  introduced  by  the  Government 
to  implement  those  parts  of  the  report-  of  the  Select  Committees 
that  deal  with  these  subjects.. 

MISS  AGJES  MACPHAIL  (York  East)-  ISTo   Speaker^  I  want 
to  ask  the  hon„  Prime  Minister  {llXo   Drew)  if  he  has  any  explana- 
tion to  offer  tiie  House  for  the  fact  "uhat  (if  my  info.raiation  is 
correct)  tobacco  that  was  cured  this  fall  is  moving  very  slowly, 
if  at  all,  off  the  farms  of  southern  Ontario,  and  at  the  same 
time  tobacco  seems  unobtainable  in  the  United  States „   It  seems 
a  strange  thing,  and  I  was  v;ondering  if  there  v;as  some  explana- 
tion for  it  of  which  we  are  unaware,  and  of  v;hich  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  might  know  and  inform  the  House. 

HON.  GEOHGE  A,  DREW  (Prime  Minister);  lilTo  Speaker, 
actually,  the  movement  has  been  quite  rapido  There  were  eighty 
million  pounds  of  tobacco  gro\7n  last  year^  as  compared  with 
fifty-five  million  the  year  before,  an  increase  of  tv^enty-five 
million  pounds o  The  quota  to  both  the  United  States  and  Brit- 
ain has  been  completely  sold. 

As  recently  as  about  ten  days  ago  there  were  some  ten 
million  pounds  still  unsold j  because  of  the  larger  amount 
grown,  but  that  has  been  reduced  to  betv;een  five  million  and 
four  million,  five  hundred  thousand  pounds  since  that  time,  and 
there  is  every  indication  that  all  of  it  vail  be  sold  very 

MISS  IvIACPIIAIL:   Is  the  unsold  portion  on  the  farms  or 
in  the  hands  of  the  dealers  or  the  processing  tobacco  companies? 

-  78  -  2-20-45, 

MR.  DREW:  That,  of  course,  is  entirely  a  matter 
of  arrangement  between  the  purchasers  and  the  farmers,  but, 
actually,  there  is  an  open  market,  as  I  believe  the  hon, 
member  for  East  York  (Miss  Macphail)  is  aware,  and  there 
has  been  a  sale  of  all  but  between  four  and  one  half  million 
and  five  million  pounds,  and  there  is  every  reason  to  be- 
lieve that  sales  v;ill  be  completed  very  shortlyo 

lviR»  Ao  A.  MacLEOD  (Bellwoods):  L!r„  Speaker,  before 
the  Orders  of  the  Day  are  called,  tovvard  the  close  of  the 
last  Session  I  requested  the  tabling  of  certain  correspond- 
ence between  the  provinces  and  the  Dominion  with  respect  to 
old-age  pensions.  The  hon.  Prime  Minister  (Llro  Drew)  will 
recall  that  after  a  brief  exchange  he  finally  agreed  to  con- 
sider the  request  as  a  notion  for  returno 

Now,  since  this  whole  question  is  likely  to  come  up 
again  during  the  present  Session,  I  think  it  would  be  very 
helpful  if  the  correspondence  referred  to  might  be  tabled 
without  delay© 

In  case  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  miay  have  forgotten 

about  it,  I  would  like  to  quote  what  he  said,  at  page  2404 

of  the  House  proceedings,  which  reads  as  follows: 

"I  am  quite  prepared  to  accept  a  motion  for 
retum„  lie   will  accept  that  motion, »♦ 

Later,  the  Leader  of  the  Opposition  said: 

"I  am  very  glad,  as  I  understand  the  sugges- 
tion that  the  correspondence  be  tabled  will  be  ac- 

I  am  sure,  Mrc  Speaker,  in  this  connection,  at 
least,  the  Government  will  be  very  glad  to  honour  its  commit- 
ments » 

MR.  DREW:  Mr,  Speaker,  I  have  no  intention  of  making 
any  remarks  about  the  last  sentence  or  any  sentence  of  that 



j<t  eo 

.swoliot  B»  a^. 

.1  Ju.d£ '. 

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V   ,  Bsnifreao 

pel  efl;t  labie 
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,  01JJ8  xi: 
CO   aonadrrgs  :f?.Rr  erlj-  tuodB  Bal-rfinei  xob 

-  79  -  2-20-45 o 

statement,  which  speaks  for  itself ,>  It  is  rather  interest- 
ing that  no  question  has  been  directed  until  to-day.   The 
file  is  available,  and  vje  will  be  eztreinely  pleased  to  make 
the  file  available©  It  naturally  concerns  a  matter  that  re- 
quires continuing  attention,  eind  could  not  be  kept  before 
this  House  from  day  to  day^  no  niatter  how  safely  it  is  guard- 
ed.  The  file  will  be  aval,  lable  at  any  tlmeo 

MjSo  MacLEOD;  Do   I  t^ike  it  that  the  correspondence 
will  be  tabled? 

MR,  DREW:   If  the  hono  member  (Mr,,  MacLeod)  will  re- 
quest that  it  be  tabled,  we  shall  have  pleasure  in  tabling 


MR.  MacLEOD:  That  is  what  the  hon.  Prime  Minister 
said  last  yearo  However.,  if  it  is  necessary  I  will  so  move 

Iffic  DREW:   I  accept  that  as  a  motion,  and  it  will  be 
tabled,  with  the  correspondence  brought  up  to  date, 

MR.  MITCHELL  F.  HEPBURI^  (Elgin):   Mro  Speaker,  before 

the  Orders  of  the  Day  are  called,  I  would  like  to  refer,  on  a 

matter  of  personal  privilege.,  to  a  heading  which  appeared  in 

last  night's  edition  of  the  "Evening  Telegram" ^  I  quote: 

"Hepburn  Quits  House  in  Huff, 
Over  Baby  Bonus." 

"llro  Hepburn's  outburst  brought 
forth  a  roar  of  laughter  from  the  Government  benches, 
followed  by  the  former  Premier  leaving  his  desk  and 
stalking  from  the  Chamber." 

Now,  without  any  personal  reference  to  hoUo  members 

who  occupy  the  Government  Benches ^  may  I  say.  that  sometimes 

loud  laughter  is  indulged  in  to  cover  up  extreme  nervousness  -- 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  You  should  know, 

L5R.  HEPBURN:   I  am  sure  the  hon.  members  opposite  were 

not  very  happy  during  the  first  hour  and  a  half  of  yesterday's 


-  80  «  2-20-45 o 

LlTo   Hepburn    (Elgin) 

session.  Sometimes,  also^  loud  laughter  indicates  vacant 
minds „ 

However,  I  am  not  unused  to  such  outbursts,  because 
when  I  was  the  leader  of  the  Liberal  Party  s.ome  years  ago, 
when  the  Hon,  Mr,  Henry  v;as  the  Premier,  any  reference  to 
my  name  in  this  House  brought  forth  loud  and  derisive 
laughter,  but  I  will  say^  in  fairness  to  those  gentlemen^ 
that  they  had  tv;ice  as  much  reason,  because  they  had  twice 
as  many  members  in  the  House <> 

It  is  a  strange  thing,  but  across  the  floor^  on  the 
Tory  benches.,  I  have  found  some  of  my  nearest  and  dearest 
friends.  They  are  very  fine  fellows,  when  you  meet  them 
alone,  but  get  a  bunch  of  them  together,  and  they  conduct 
themselves  very  differently^,  However;,  that  is  an  attribute 
of  most  animal  life.   One  dog  may  be  a  good  dog,  but  if  you 
get  six  of  them  in  a  bunch  they  will  kill  sheep. 

There  is  one  thing  the  bumptious  Tories  overlooked, 
and  that  was  that  prior  to  1934  they  were  singing  what  real- 
ly was  their  swan  song,  because  after  the  election  in  that 
year  they  disappeared  like  the  snows  in  the  springtime,  and 
perhaps  history  is  just  repeating  itself o 

The  fact  is,  lUXo   Speaker,  that  I  had  made  an  engage- 
ment with  some  people  from  out  of  town  for  four-thirty 
yesterday  afternoon.   I  so  indicated  to  my  colleagues,  and 
indicated  to  the  hono  member  for  Brant  (Mr.  Nixon)  that  he 
would  have  to  carry  on  from  four-fifteeno  The  hono  member 
for  Bellwoods  (Mr.,  MacLeod)  was  good  enough  to  send  me  a 
copy  of  the  remarks  he  indicated  he  would  address  to  the  hon. 
Prim©  Minister  (LIro  Drev/) ,  and  I  went  to  the  trouble  of  send- 
ing him  a  note  indicating  to  him  that  I  had  made  this  sp.point- 
ment  with  people  from  out  of  town  at  four-thirty^  Uro  Speaker, 
I. assure  you  that  I  did  not  leave  this  Chamber  "in  a  huff". 


tnbael  biii  &jbv 



;ft7  vI 

7  J-nam 




-  81  -  2-20-45. 

Mr.  Hepburn  (Elgin) 

It  would  take  more  than  thirty-eight  Tories  to  start  me  off, 
I  am  sure  that  those  who  have  sat  with  me  since  1934  know 
that  I  am  a  rather  amiable  person,  in  fact,  I  have  a  rather 
even  disposition,  and  am  good-natured  all  the  time. 

MR.  DUCKWORTH:  It  is  drawn  to  my  memory  that  he  is  a 
great  leader.   He  and  I  met  in  Palm  Beach,  Florida — 

MR.  SPEAKER:  I  think  the  hon.  member — 

MR.  DUCKWORTH:  No,  I  am  not  out  of  order  at  all.   In 

MR.  SPEAKER:  You  are  out  of  order. 

MR.  DUCKWORTH:  All  right,  if  you  do  not  want  to  hear 

HR.  SPEAKER:  May  I  most  respectfully  remind  the  hon. 
members  of  the  House  that  if  any  hon.  member  desires  to 
rise  before  the  Orders  of  the  Day  are  called,  and  will 
come  and  indicate  that  to  me  before  three  o'clock,  together 
with  a  written  statement  of  what  is  desired  to  be  referred 
to,  peanmisslon  may  be  giveno   The  hon.  member  for  Dover- 
court  (Mr.  Duckworth)  has  not  made  any  request,  and  I 
must  call  the  Orders  of  the  Day. 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Mr.  Speaker, 
before  the  Orders  of  the  Day  are  called,  it  has  been 
drawn  to  my  attention  that  there  are  sitting  on  the  floor 
of  the  Legislature  five  Naval  officers  of  His  Majesty's 
Navy  who  are  here  to  take  ship  back  to  England.   I  would 
simply  like  to  mention  that  fact,  because  these  men  were 
in  the  Royal  Navy  on  ••D'*  Day,  which  has  so  many  intim^w 
associations  with  hon.  members  of  this  Legislature.  And  I 
know  that  I  speak  on  behalf  of  everyone  here,  when  I  say  we 

(  Page  82  follows  ) 


.afD.-i3}   w:lM   0oa;  lus  ms   I 

,,&:  eve 


fclwow  I       ^t^Blv  '^w  yvifiv', 

eiew  iidfli.  &.&&>. 

vS-   o^.ti'^i    ) 

-  82  -  2-20-45., 

welcome  them  to  this  Legislature,  which,  in  spite  of  any- 
thing they  might  have  heard,  has  many  similarities  to 
Westminsters  which  they  will  Imow  better  than  our  legis- 
lators in  Toronto. 

MR.  EDWimD  B.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
MTo  Speaker,  I  should  like  to  associate  myself  with  the 
hon.  Prime  Minister  (Mr,  Drew) ,  as  I  am  sure  should  all 
the  members  of  this  House,  in  expressing  our  pleasure  that 
the  guests,  to  whom  he  has  referred,  are  with  us  to-day, 
and  that  they  are,  if  I  may  say  so  with  complete  sincerity, 
such  distinguish'^d  guests  because  of  the  part  they  and  their 
gallant  comrades  of  the  Navy  have  played  in  this  war^ 

MR.  SPEiUvER:  I^lay  I  ask  the  Clerk  of  the  House  to 

ask  our  distinguished  guests  to  come  forward,  so  that  we 

may  gaze  upon  the  men  who  guarantee  "there  will  always  be 

an  England . " 

By  direction  of  the  Speaicer,  the  Clerk  of  the  House 
presented  five  Naval  Officers  to  the  hon,  members. 

MR.  SPEAKER:  As  IjITo  Churchill  has  said,  "The  Navy 
is  hereo" 
The  Naval  Officers  retired, 

MR.^  SPEAKER:   Orders  of  the  Day. 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):   Order  No.  1, 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   First  Order;  consideration  of 
the  Speech  of  The  Honourable  the  Lieutenant  Governor  at  the 
opening  of  the  Sessiono 

MR.  CHARLES  H.  AlARTIN  ( Hal di man d -Nor folk)  :  MTo 

Speaker,  I  beg  leave  to  movej,  seconded  by  Mr.  Scott,  t^hat: 

"That  an  humble  Address  be  presented  to 
The  Honourable  the  Lieutenant  Governor,  as 
follows : 

"To  The  Honourable  Albert  Matthev/s, 
Lieutenant  Governor  of  the 
Province  of  Ontario^ 

83  -  8-20-45. 

llTo  Martin, 

"V/e,  His  Majesty's  most  dutiful  and 
loyal  subjects,  the  Legislative  Assembly  of  the 
Province  of  Ontario,  now  aasembled,  beg  leave 
to  thank  Your  Honour  for  the  gracious  speech 
Your  Honour  has  addressed  to  uso" 

Mr,,  Speaker,  I  am  deeply  honoured  in  this  oppor- 
tunity of  moving  the  adoption  of  the  Address  from  the 
Throne  ^ 

I  shall  deal  briefly  with  a  few  phases  of  the  sub- 
stantial record  of  accomplishment  on  the  part  of  the 
Administrationo   In  a  short  period  the  Government  of  the  day 
has  shown  proof  of  its  ability  to  give  sound,  progressive 
administration.   It  has  shown  that  the  platform  of  the  Pro- 
gressive-Conservative Party  is  no  mere  list  of  idle  promises, 
I  feel  that  we  on  this  side  of  the  House  may  be  proud  that 
the  Speech  from  the  Throne,  delivered  by  the  representative 
of  His  Ivlajesty  on  Thursday  last,  was  no  mere  formal  document, 
but,  rather,  a  record  of  real  accomplishment  p  and  also  the 
forerunner  of  an  advanced  legislative  programme  shortly  to 
be  placed  before  youo 

The  World  War:   I  think  I  should  say  a  few  words 
about  the  subject  that  has  been  first  in  our  thoughts  for 
the  last  five  and  a  half  yearSo   Iviro  Churchill.,  I  think  it 
was,  remarked  that  the  German  is  always  at  your  throat  or  at 
your  feeto   Once  again,  as  he  alv/ays  does  in  defeat,  the 
German  begins  to  whine o   This  is  the  final  aid  convincing 
sign,  if  it  v;ere  needed^  that  victory  is  now  assured,  though 
we  must  not  yet  attempt  to  speak  with  any  certainty  about 
the  probable  duration  of  the  remainder  of  the  struggle » 

We  have  survived  some  dark  and  better  dayso   Caa ada 
was  viholly  unprepared  for  war  except  for  the  courage  aid 
willingness  of  her  youth,  along  with  the  potential  might  of 
her  producing  establishment o   Britain,  save  for  her  Navy, 

-  84  -  2-20-45. 

Mr.  Martin. 

was  unprepared,  France,  rotten  as  to  internal  politics,  and 
torn  by  a  raultltude  of  selfish  party  factions,  v;as  not  the 
France  of  the  Great  Waro  The  French  downfall  was  hastened  by 
the  cowardly  Italian  stab  in  the  back.  We  saw  our  ally  go 
down,   in  spite  of  all  Churchill  could  do  to  bolster  her 
coxirage.  VJe  saw  her  degraded  by  the  Vichy  crew,  but  we  also 
saw  her  regeneration  at  the  hands  of  the  courageous  de.  Gaulle. 

At  Dunkirk  Britain  lost  her  military  equipment,  but, 
by  a  miracle,  saved  her  men.  Then  came  the  Battle  of  Britain, 
where  a  handful  of  airmen,  fighting  from  dawn  till  dark,  turn- 
ed back  the  German  air  force. 

With  France  knocked  out  of  the  war,  Britain  stood 
alone  except  for  her  partners  in  the  Empire,  with  the  ezcep- 
tion  of  southern  Ireland,  which  stood  aside  and  denied  even 
the  use  of  her  badly-needed  ports o  In  our  southern  neighbour 
we  found  a  great  and  friendly  neutral.  In  Russia  we  found 
only  a  neutral,  at  the  tine  adding  to  the  European  confusion 
by  attacking  Finland  and  Poland  to  rectify  her  boundaries  and 
to  add  to  her  territories » 

I  do  not  need  to  outline  Hitler's  crowning  folly,  that 
of  attacking  Russia  when  he  felt  that  Britain  was  ready  for 
the  kill.  I  do  not  need  to  detail  the  cowardly  and  unprovok- 
ed attack  of  Japan  at  Pearl  Harbour.  The  German  armies  were 
soon  to  pound  at  the  gates  of  Moscow  while  the  Japanese  were 
hammering  at  the  doors  of  India,  7/e  have  seen  the  tide  turn,  - 
gradually,  slowly,  -  but  certainly.  At  this  moment  the  Japan- 
ese are  more  concerned  with  the  defense  of  Tokyo  than  with  the 
conquest  of  India  or  Australia.  Germany,  at  last,  is  fight- 
ing a  war  on  her  own  soil,  a  process  she  has  avoided  for 
generations  past. 

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-  85  -  2-20-45. 

Mr,  Martin. 

In  all  these  accomplishments  Canada  has  played  an 
honourable  part.  Our  leadership  in  national  affairs  has 
been  indifferent.  I  think  I  may  say  it  has  often  been  en- 
tirely lacking  until  spurred  into  some  sort  of  action  by 
the  courage,  the  enterprise,  and  the  loyalty  of  our  people. 

I  do  not  need  to  labour  the  deficiencies  of  the 
Ottawa  scene.  No  later  than  February  5th  the  representa- 
tive Federal  riding  of  Grey  North  spoke  its  opinion  of  the 
conduct  of  national  affairs «   I  have  little  doubt  that  the 
verdict  of  Grey  North  will  be  the  verdict  of  Canada  when 
the  ballot  boxes  are  again  opened  to  the  electors. 

From  our  limited  population  three  quarters  of  a 
million,  and  more,  of  our  men  and  women  are  in  the  fight- 
ing forces.   In  October,  1944,  figures  were  released  by 
Ottawa  for  the  whole  of  Canada  as  to  provincial  contribu- 
tions to  the  armed  forces.  The  potential  military  popula- 
tion of  Ontario  was  placed  at  850,000,  and  out  of  this  num- 
ber 44.4  per  cent,  had  entered  the  forces.  In  (Quebec,  only 
22,8  per  cent,  of  the  potential  were  under  arms.   I  mention 
this  in  no  spirit  of  criticism.  In  recent  weeks  one  of  the 
party  leaders  in  this  House  has  declaimed  loudly  and  long 
in  the  interests  of  national  unity.   I  merely  suggest  that 
this  unity  can  best  be  achieved  by  a  reasonably  equal  unity 
in  contribution  to  the  causes  of  democracy  and  freedom. 

The  Empire  Air  Training  Scheme,  now  noarlng  termina- 
tion, has  been  forged  into  one  of  the  greatest  single  weapons 
in  the  hands  of  our  allied  forces. 

We  have  produced  arms  and  material  in  great  numbers. 
It  is  needless  to  enlarge  upon  that.  You  are  all  familiar 
with  the  amount  of  war  equipment  that  has  been  produced  by 
this  great  province. 




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-  86  -        *   2-20-45. 

Mr,  Martin. 

Six  Victory  Loans  have  been  floated  successfully, 
the  last  one  raising  $1,407,576,650. 

Our  own  Provincial  Government  has  purchased  Victory 
Bonds  to  the  extent  of  $20,000,000,  of  which  $15,000,000  has 
been  acquired  under  the  direction  of  our  present  Treasurer. 

There  can  never  be  the  slightest  doubt  that  Britain 
and  the  Commonwealth  saved  democracy  and  freedom  when  both 
were  about  to  perish  from  most  of  the  earth.  There  is  no 
doubt  about  the  contribution  made  by  Canada  in  the  cause, 
and  there  is  no  province  which  has  more  freedly  poured  out 
men,  money  and  material  than  our  own  province  of  Ontario.   I 
am.  proud  and  happy  to  be  able  to  stand  here  to-day,  and  to 
point  to  Ontario ♦s  record,  and  to  be  able  to  say  that  our 
province  has  given  freely  and  promptly  of  everything  within 
the  gift  of  this  Government  in  aid  of  the  allied  cause. 

On  this  side  of  the  House  there  has  never  been  a 
voice  raised  in  doubt  of  the  outcome.  Particularly  at  this 
time,  I  think  this  House  should  hear  a  word  of  appreciation 
as  to  the  magnificent  accomplishments  of  our  American  ally 
in  the  Pacific.   I  remember  croakings  from  a  member  of  this 
Legislature  to  the  effect  that,  "If  Russia  should  fall,  and 
I  believe  she  will  — "  —  I  remember  some  flat-footed  declara- 
tions, later  watered  down,  that  "The  American  Navy  is  in  hid- 
ing." These  dismal  predictions,  I  am  hsp^py  to  say,  did  not 
come  from  the  Government  benches  on  this  side  of  the  House. 
And  I  hope  that  those  of  us  on  this  side  of  the  House  can 
continue  to  be  neither  depressed  in  the  dark  days,  should  they 
again  come,  nor  unduly  elated  in  the  hour  of  victory.  Our 
attitude,  I  think,  should  be  one  of  sincere  thankfulness  that 
victory  is  at  last  in  sight  and  gratitude  for  the  leadership 


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-  87  -  2-20-45. 

I:!r.  Martin. 

of  such  men  as  vre  find  in  the  allied  nations. 

Agriculture:   Coming  to  agriculture,  the  thing  that 
I  am  most  interested  in,  I  v;ould  like  to  deal  just  briefly 
with  this  subject.  I  am  gratified  at  the  attention  given- 
by  this  Government  to  the  improvement  of  conditions  relating 
to  Ontario »s  most  important  industry.  I  would  say  "most 
important"  industry  because  on  that  industry  depends  our  very 

I  regret,  as  do  we  all,  the  temporary  absence  from 
the  House  of  our  friend,  the  hon.  Llinister  of  Agriculture 
(Mr.  Kennedy)  o  I  icnoTir  I  speak  for  all  of  us  when  I  extend 
our  sympathy  to  Col.  Thomas  L.  Kennedy  and  his  family  in  his 
recent  lengthy  and  serious  illness.  I  have  seen  him  in  recent 
days,  and  I  am  glad  to  report  that  he  is  making  a  steady,  if 
slow,  recovery.  Uhile  he  was  in  the  vaUoy  of  the  shadow  h© 
never  lost  his  courage  or  his  cheery  outlook.  I  think  that  ho 
may  now  be  considered  well  out  of  danger,  and  I  hope  and  ex- 
pect that  within  a  week,  or  so,  we  shall  again  be  able  to  greet 
him  in  his  accustomed  seat  in  this  House.  No  Minister  has  ever 
given  more  earnest  attention  to  the  affairs  of  an  important 
department  or  more  capable  direction  to  government  activities, 
which  are  so  important  to  the  welfare  of  our  people. 

Our  farmers  are  making  a  most  important  contribution 
to  victory.  In  spite  of  acute  labour  and  machinery  shortages, 
production,  last  year,  continued  to  increase.  In  rural  communi- 
ties we  kncrar  the  difficulties  of  a  man-power  shortage.  The 
indecision  of  the  Federal  Government  in  handling  the  man-power 
problem  has  aggravated  a  situation  already  difficiilt  enough. 
Our  taste  of  bureaucracy,  as  evidenced  in  the  operations  of 
Selective  Service,  have  given  us  an  inkling  of  what  state 

li,  ii^- 

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1o   afioi^d'idqo    oi 

-  88  -  2-20-45 o 

MTo  Martin, 

regimentation  really  means.  Amongst  other  things,  our  men. 
are  fighting  for  freedom,  for  freedom  of  the  individual  to 
function  as  an  individual,  and  not  as  a  tool  of  the  state. 
They  are  not  going  to  return  from  the  battle  lines  to  submit 
to  being  fitted  into  place  by  a  ready-made  bureaucratic  plan. 
This  is  not  the  Canadian.,  the  British  or  the  American  way  of 

I  also  would  like  to  make  reference  to  conditions  in 
my  own  Riding.  Haldimand -Norfolk.  IJorfolky  especially,  be- 
ing outstanding  in  its  diversification^  we  had  a  very  profit- 
able crop  of  flue  cuxed  tobacco  in  1944  of  about  sixty  million 
pounds,  being  sixty  per  cento  of  the  omomit  grown  in  the 
tobacco  area  of  southern  Ontario o  This  crop  will  return  to 
the  growers  between  tv/elve  to  fifteen  million  dollars.  Also, 
we  grow  on  an  average  of  twenty-five  per  centc  of  the  straw- 
berries that  are  grovm  in  Ontario,  ■  These  are  just  tv/o  of 
the  important  products  grown  in  Norfolk,  in  addition  to  dairy- 
ing, which  is  also  a  very  important  industry  in  monetary 

Of  course  you  are  all  familiar  with  our  cooperative 
cold  storage  at  Simcoe  for  the  benefit  of  our  farmers  in 
fruit- and  vegetable -growingo   This  was  one  of  the  first  of  its 
kind,  and  was  instituted  by  my  late  brother ,  Honourable  John 
S,  Martin,  at  one  time  Minister  of  Agriculture  in  the  Ferguson 
Government.   Its  cost  has  long  since  been  amply  justified, 
Haldimand  County,  as  a  whole,  is  more  successful  in 
general  farming,  and  very  little  fruit-  and  vegetable-growing 
is  done  in  that  county. 

There  has  also  been  a  cooperative  cold-storage  and 
grading  station  established  in  the  town  of  Cayuga  for  process- 

-   88   - 

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-  89  -  2-20-45. 

Mr,  Martin, 

ing  and  storage  of  poultry  and  eggs,  etc.   I  would  like  to 
bring  that  to  the  attention  of  the  House,  -  not  as  some- 
thing new,  (I  believe  it  has  been  done  in  other  places,) 
but  I  do  know  it  is  proving  quite  successful,  and  they  are 
operating  in  every  direction  by  gathering  produce  and  pro- 
cessing it  in  Norfolk  County.,   I  believe  in  the  future  it 
will  be  a  great  help  in  bringing  together  the  buyer,  the 
consumer  and  the  producer. 

Planned  Agriculture:  Two  weeks  after  taking  office 
this  Government  called  together  four  hundred  representative 
farmers  to  organize  for  agricultural  planning.   Three  weeks 
later  a  twenty-three-man  permanent  agricultural  committee 
was  organized  and  was  given  Royal  Commission  status.   This 
committee  is  meeting  regularly  and  reporting  regularly. 
Study  is  being  given  to  marketing  problems,  to  soil  conserva- 
tion, and  to  other  matters  of  grave  importance  to  our  farmers. 
Thirty- five  counties  have  already  approved  the  general  plan 
for  county  committees.  A  dozen  or  more  counties  have  already 
set  up  their  local  committees.   Each  county  committee  in- 
cludes a  county 'council  representative,  a  government  repres- 
entative, the  local  member  of  the  Legislature,  and  a  represent- 
ative of  each  of  the  local,  organized  farm  groups.   They  are 
dealing  with  such  matters  as: 

Marketing  and  Distribution;    Soil  Conservation  and 


Health  of  Animals;  Disease  Prevention; 

Improvement  of  Field  Crops;    Bettering  tte  Quality  of 

Dairy  and  Live  Stock 

The  Ontario  Farm  Chemistry  Council  is  also  being 

organized*  This  council  will  cooperate  with  scientists  at  the 

O.A.C,  v/ith  research  groups  at  the  universities,  and  v/ith 

-   08   - 



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-  90  -  2-20-45 „ 

Mr,,  Martin, 

industrial  and  other  research  groups.  The  coiincil  will 
collate  inforraation  received  and  pass  it  along  to  the 
county  conHiiittees, 

As  you  laiow,  the  work  at  the  0<,A.Co  has  been  some- 
what disorganized  because  of  the  loan  of  some  of  the  build- 
ings to  the  Federal  Government .,   i7ith  these  now  being  re- 
turnedj  steps  are  under  way  to  co-ordinate  the  work  carried 
on  at  the  GoAoC,  the  Ontario  Veterinarj''  College  and  the 
liacdonald  Instituteo   I  have  no  doubt  that  the  Minister  of 
Agriculture  (Iviro  Kennedy),  on  his  return,  will  lay  the  plans 
of  the  Goverjoment  before  the  House  in  sane  detail o 

I  know  that  the  resumption  of  courses  at  the 
Kacdonald  Institute  v/ill  be  welcomed  by  our  young  women  from 
the  farms  of  the  Province » 

In  passing J  I  think  I  should  mention  the  promotion 
of  Dro  Ao  L.  MacNabb  to  his  new  post  as  Head  of  the  Ontario 
Veterinary  College <,  For  many  years  he  has  headed  the  staff 
of  the  Health  Department  Laboratories,  the  second  largest 
laboratory  organization  in  North  America.   Dr.  MacNabb  is  a 
public  servant  of  the  finest  type.  He  is  a  scientist  of  the 
highest  qualifi cat ions o  He  is  a  practical  man,  as  evidenced 
by  his  work  in  supervising  the  farms  operated  at  the  Ontario 
Hospitals,  all  of  which  he  has  placed  on  a  paying  basis,   I 
congratulate  the  Government  on  his  selection;  I  congratulate 
the  doctor  on  his  promotion,  I  hope  that  a  worthy  successor 
may  be  found  for  the  post  he  has  vacated. 

Union  Stock  Yards:  By  acquiring  the  Union  Stock 
Yards,  the  Government  has  given  a  large  measure  of  reassur- 
ance to  our  fanners.   The  Union  Stock  Yards'  Boardj,  under  the 
chairmanship  of  77,  R.  Reek,  our  competent  Deputy  Minister  of 



QiijA  ■-.?  00X3E. 

f-. .'.,  •• 

-  91  -  2-20-45 o 

tlTo  Martin, 

Agriculture,  includes  three  farm  representatives,  one  re- 
presentative of  the  commission  men  and  one  representative 
of  the  packers.  V/e  have,  I  think,  a  well-balanced  and 
democratic  board,  and  the  change,  I  believe,  is  one  whioli 
meets  with  the  warm  approval  of  our  farmer  community* 

Labour:   I  am  heartily  in  favour  of  the  demands  of 
the  Premier  for  a  Dominion-Provincial  conference.  As  he 
points  out,  our  wartime  controls  cease  with  the  termination 
of  the  war,  or  shortly  thereafter,  andi  I  think  this  measure 
is  a  necessity  if  we  are  to  avoid  post-war  chaos e   I  am 
also  utterly  opposed  to  the  action  of  the  Federal  Government 
in  steadily  moving  in  on  the  prerogatives  of  the  provinces o 
Our  best  governments  are  those  living  close  to  the  people, 
our  municipal  governments.  By  and  large,  they  function  ef- 
ficientlyj  they  are  free  from  scandal;  they  get  value  for 
their  money,.  Our  provincial  governments  are  our  best  guaran- 
tee of  whatever  we  are  to  achieve  in  national  unity^  They 
reflect  fairly  accurately  the  views  of  large  and  reasonably 
similar  sections  of  our  population. 

The  Labour  Court,  established  by  a  former  govern- 
ment, and  which  we  opposed  at  the  time  of  establishment,  has 
passed  av/ay,  and  I  have  not  heard  that  there  were  any  mourners. 
It  has  been  replaced  by  the  Labour  Relations  Board.   This 
democratic  board  of  seven  members,  with  three  representing 
labour  and  three  the  employers,  and  with  the  Chairman, 
Professor  Jacob  Finkleman,  more  or  less  holding  the  scales, 
if  that  is  the  right  term,  has  disposed  of  almost  all  the 
four  hundred  cases  submitted  to  ito  Hearings  before  this  board 
are  prompt.   The  members  of  the  board  are  functioning  as  reason- 
able-men, delivering  reasonable  judgments,  and  the  comparative 
peace  on  the  industrial  front  in  Ontario  is  to  at  least  some 

-  92  -  2-20-45 o 

Mr.  Martin. 

extent  to  the  credit  of  this  capable  organizationo 

The  Minister  of  Labour  will  submit  amendments  to 
the  Workmen's  Compensation  Act,  a  fine  measure  standing 
to  the  credit  of  an  earlier  Conservative  Government,  As 
a  general  policy,  the  Government  accepts  the  view  that 
ultimately  every  employee  shall  have  the  measures  of  pro- 
tection and  security  afforded  by  this  measiare,, 

It  is  only  natural  that  some  friction  should  en- 
sue during  the  early  period  of  application  of  such  a  far- 
reaching  measure,  but  its  benefits  are  already  becoming 
apparent,  I  think  that  special  credit  is  due  for  the 
provision  made  to  help  workers  in  the  construction  indus- 
try.  The  vacation  with  pay  is  scarcely  applicable  to  the 
large  number  of  men  in  this  great  industry,  but  the  pro- 
vision where  a  two  per  cent,  bonus  in  the  form  of  stamps 
attached  to  each  employee »s  book,  which  may  be  cashed  in 
yearly,  gives  a  substantial  bonus  to  the  man  who  is  more 
or  less  steadily  employed,  and  certainly  should  encourage 
the  thrifty  workman, 

I  am  glad  to  be  informed  that  the  system  of 
factory  inspection  is  being  improved,'  and  already  results 
are  apparent  in  the  gradual  improvement  of  working  condi- 
tions in  our  factories,, 

Niagara  Parks  Commission:   In  passing,  I  feel  I 
should  congratulate  the  Government  on  the  reorganization 
of  the  Niagara  Parks  Commission  under  the  Chairmanship  of 
the  Labour  Minister.  The  Commission  in  charge  of  this 
great  national  asset  is  a  strong  onej,  coii5)osed  of  men  who 
know  their  subject,  and  who,  as  residents  of  the  area 
primarily  affected,  will  have,  at  heart,  the  steady  and 
healthy  development  of  the  greatest  tourist  attraction  in 

-  93  -  2-20-45 » 

Mr,  Martin. 


HEALTH:  While  the  Health  Department  has  suffered 
less  in  recent  months  in  the  death  of  the  Deputy  Minister, 
Dro  B,  T«  McGhie,  the  Minister  is  fortunate  in  having  at 
hand  a  worthy  successor  in  the  person  of  Dro  J.  To  Phair, 
an  official  of  many  years'  experience  in  the  field  of 
public  health o 

During  the  past  year  the  groundwork  has  been  laid 
for  the  establishment  of  public  health  units.  Full  develop- 
ment of  this  plan  will  necessarily  await  the  return  to 
civilian  life  of  physicians,  nurses  and  technicians  now  so 
largely  engaged  v/ith  the  Armed  ForceSo  The  fact  that  al- 
ready fifty-two  nurses  arp  in  training  for  work  ultimately 
in  health  units  speaks  well  for  the  reception  of  this  piano 

As  is  always  the  case  in  time  of  war,  the  incidence 
of  venereal  disease  is  caxising  considerable  concerno  How- 
ever, it  is  worthy  of  note  that  there  has  been  a  great 
reduction  in  the  last  year,  largely  thanks  to  reorganiza- 
tion measures  undertaken  by  the  Health  Department o 

In  the  field  of  tuberculosis,  diagnostic  facilities 
have  been  increased,  and  the  use  of  mass  X-ray  examination 
has  been  extended. 

Other  problems  have  been  attacked,  notably  measures 
to  combat  cancero  An  examination  of  local  methods  of  pro- 
tection of  food  supply  is  in  progresso 

Overcrowding  in  our  mental  hospitals  is  a  subject 
that  is  causing  very  deep  concern  to  officials  in  charge  of 
this  important  phase  of  Health  Department  activityo  There 
are  approximately  IS, 000  mental  patients  in  quarters 
actually  suitable  for  not  more  than  10 j 000,   The  sto  Thomas 
Hospital,  with  accommodation  for  about  1,800  patients,  is 

-  94  -  2-20-45. 

Mr.  Martin, 

still  on  loan-  to  the  Federal  Government.   If  and  when  this 
modem  hospital  is  returned  to  the  Province,  seme  measure 
of  relief  will  be  afforded,  but  there  still  is  a  great  deal 
to  be  done  to  find  greater  accommodation.  At  the  Orillia 
Hospital  for  feeble-minded  there  are  about  SjlSO  patients, 
with  severe  over-crowding  in  evidence.  To  alleviate  this 
situation,  an  addition  to  hold  500  patients  has  been  made 
at  Orillia,  and  now  nears  completiono  It  has  been  in^joe- 
sible  to  launch  a  major  construction  programme  during  the 
war  years,  for  neither  labour  nor  material  have  been  avail- 
able. However,  a  programme  of  hospital  construction  will 
be  given  a  high  priority  once  the  war  is  won.  With  fifty- 
seven  departmental  physicians  serving  in  the  Armed  Forces, 
and  with  hundreds  of  nurses  and  attendants  and  other 
employees  serving  with  the  Forces,  in  various  capacities p 
it  has  been  difficult  to  maintain  regulation  standards,, 
The  warmest  thanks  of  this  House  are  due  to  the  doctors ^ 
nurses  and  attendants  who  have  cheerfully  carried  on  in 
the  face  of  extreme  difficultyo 

I  should  like  to  extend  a  word  of  congratulation  to 
the  Honourable  the  Minister  of  Health  for  the  energy  with 
which  he  has  attacked  the  problems  in  the  health  field. 
Grants  of  $500 j 000  have  been  made  to  the  Cancer  Treatment 
and  Research  Foundation.   Grants  of  $550,000  have  been  made 
to  sanatoria  to  provide  extensions  for  the  accommodation  of 
tubercular  patients o 

With  respect  to  indigent  patients  in  general 
hospitals,  (this  is  very  in^jortant,  I  think,  to  all  of  us,) 
the  provincial  grant  has  been  raised  from  $2,35  to  $2,75  a 
day  in  territory,  largely  in  the  North,  where  there  is  no 
municipal  organization.  Otherwise,  throughout  the  province 

-  95   "  2-20-45. 

MTo  Martin. 

the  Government  grant  has  "been  raised  from  sixty  cents  to 
seventy-five   cents  per  day  udiere   the  mxinicipality  co- 
operates by  raising  the  mimic ipal  grant  from  $lo75  to  $2 
per  day.     This  extension  of  the  grant-in-aid  system  is  in 
accordance  with  sound  British  practice.     The  traditional 
tendency  in  Britain  is  to  use  the  grant-in-aid  system^ 
aiding  strong  local  governments,   but  protecting  their 

Welfare:     Certain  reorganization  measures  have 
been  adopted  in  the  important  Department  of  Public  Welfare. 

In  accordance  with  the  pre-election  undertaking,   the 
maximum  old-age  pension  has  been  increased  from  a  $23-per- 
month  to  a  $28~per-month  maximum.     Up  to  ;|2,000,   restric- 
tions  have  been  ranoved  as  to  pensioners'   estates.     No  longer 
does  the  pensioner  have  to  impoverish  himself  to  secure   his 
small  allowance.     Nor  is   the  small  estate  now  absorbed  by 
the  "recoveries"  which  have  hretofore  been  the  rulee     Up  to 
date  the  Provincial  Administration  has  been  \inable  to  pre- 
vail on  the  Federal  Government  to  still  further  liberalize 
provisions   in  this  matter,* 

Mothers'  Allowances  have  been  increased,  where  neces- 
sary,  to  the  point  where   adequate  subsistence  is  now  provided. 

For  the  numerous  unemployable s  still  on  relief,   the 
more  liberal  McHenry  schedule   of  food^  allowances  has  been 

All  child  welfare   activities  have  been  merged  under 
one  board  headed  by  the  Minister  of  Health.     This  board,   ot 
course,    includes  supervision  of  Children's  Aid  Society  work, 
one  of  the  most  important  and  most  humane  activities   in 
which  the  province  is   engaged. 

-  96  <-  2-20-45. 

BflTo  Martin, 

The  magnificent  property  of  the  Boys'  School  at 
Bowmanvillep  an  institution  founded  by  the  former  Ferguson 
administration,  is  still  used  as  an  internment  camp  for 
war  prisoners,  while  the  work  of  the  school  is  carried  on 
in  cramped  and  inadequate  quarters  in  two  old  houses.  At 
Guelphp  the  Girls'  School  property  is  likewise  on  loan  to 
Ottawa,  while  the  work  is  carried  on  in  two  houses  in 
Cobourg.   I  look  forward  to  a  resumption  of  the  important 
task  of  caring  for  xinderprivileged  children  in  proper 
quarters  once  the  properties  in  question  are  retvirned  to 
provincial  control.  It  is  not  generally  realized  how  much 
our  services  have  been  sacrificed  in  aid  of  the  war  effort. 

Highways:   In  the  person  of  the  Minister  of  High- 
ways we  have  a  Minister  who  gained  Experience  from  five 
years  in  Opposition,  and  who- brings  the  wisdom  of  seven- 
teen years'  of  municipal  experience  to  bear  on  his  present 
task.  He  knows  roads;  he  knows  municipal  officials;  he 
knows  human  nature.  He  believes  that  a  straight  line  is 
the  shortest  distance  between  two  points.  Under  trying 
conditions  he  is  giving  sound,  sane  administration  in  one 
of  the  most  important  departments  of  government. 

Necessarily,  at  this  time,  new  construction  is  al- 
most out  of  the  question.  As  you  all  know,  labour  and 
material  are  not  available,  and  as  the  Minister  pointed 
out  to  the  municipalities  the  other  day,  in  these  times 
you  do  not  get  much  for  your  money  where  road  work  is  con- 
cerned, We  hope  the  county  and  municipal  councils  will  be 
a  little  more  fortunate  in  this  road  programme  which  will 
be  carried  on  at  the  end  of  the  war* 

I  give  the  Minister  of  Highways  credit  for  abolish- 
ing the  cumbersome  "machinery  rental"  charge  folrmerly  paid 
to  municipalities.   The  province  now  pays  fifty  per  cent  of 

-  97  -  2-20-45. 

Mr.  Martin, 

the  cost  of  approved  purchases  of  power  machinery  for  munici- 
pal road  work.  The  change  is  a  welcome  one.  The  provincial 
subsidy  paid  to  municipalities  on  bridges  has  been  increased 
by  twenty-five  per  cent,  where  a  coxinty  spends  at  least 
$1,000  in  a  given  year  on  a  given  structure  or  where  a  town- 
ship spends  $500* 

To  aid  mxonicipal  financing  subsidies  are  paid  twice 
yearly  instead  of  once. 

Notvdthstanding  shortage  of  men  and  material,  some  226 
miles  of  provincial  highways  were  improved  in  1944  by  the  laying 
of  a  gravel  mulch  surface.   I  do  not  know  whether  any  hon. 
members  of  this  House  are  familiar  with  that  process  of  re- 
pairing  roads,  but  urder  these  pressing  conditions  it  is  most 
efficient . and  a  quite  satisfactory  rcethod.   It  is  done  quite 
cheaply  and  is  very  satisfactory.   The  Minister  is  fully 
av/are  that  tourists  will  not  drive  on  "dust"  surfaces  if  thqy 
can  avoid  it ,  and  I  am  glad  that  he  is  determined  that  his 
programme  will  include  plans  for  close  attention  to  tourist 

For  the  postwar  period  plans  have  been  formulated  for 
a  four-year  period.   I  understand  that  the  Minister  hes  ^©ci- 
ded  to  take  measures  to  eliminate  the  Toronto  to  Barrie  bottle- 
neck, a  measure  of  the  greatest  importf^nce  to  the  tourist 
Industry  in  this  district.  Extensions  both  east  and  west  are 
contemplated  for  the  Queen  Elizabeth  Way.  This  is  also  im- 
portant in  assisting  tourist  traffic  through  our  main  ports  of 


I  should  also  like  to  congratulate  the  Minister  in 
meeting  each  of  our  county  councils  or  their  road  committees 
during  the  short  period  he  has  been  in  office.  I  do  not  want 
to  let  this  opportunity  pass  to  extend  our  thanks  to  the  hon. 
Minister  of  Highways  for  his  great  effort  that  he  has  put 
forth  in  this  emergency  of  snow  that  w^  have  had,  the  greatest 
snowfall  we  have  had  in  years.   I  am  sure  we  al  1  appreciate 
what  he  haa  done  to  keep  the  main  highways  Qj)en,  because  it 
has  not  been  done  without  a  great  deal  of  effort.  He  is  set- 
ting a  fine  example  in  furthering  inter-governmental  co -operation. 
I  should  like  also  to  add  a  word  of  commendation  to  the  co- 
operation of  the  hon.  members  in  all  their  difficulties  and 
complaints.   The  work  in  this  connection  speaks  a  great  deal 
for  the  efficient  departmental  organization.  The  City  of 
Toronto  may  look  and  learn  from  his  work  in  this  organization. 

Planning  and  Development;  May  I  congratulate  my  friend, 
the  hon.  member  for  Toronto,  St.  George  Riding,  on  his  elevation 
to  cabinet  rank.  He  is  a  young  member  who  has  an  impressive 
scholastic  record,  and  who  has  gained  distinction  in  his 
profession.  As  Minister  of  Planning  and  Development  he  is  charged 
with  the  duty  of  co-operating  with  municipalities  in  working 
out  plans  for  the  postwar  period.  Already  the  department  has 
achieved  progress  in  furthering  plans  for  flood  control  in  the 
Thames  Valley  and  in  the  Ganaraska  Valley  in  the  Port  Hope  area. 
Plans  are  also  under  way  for  extending  the  Grand  River  conser- 
vation scheme  which  has   alreedy  accomplished  much  for  the  section 
served  by  the  Shand  dam  at  Fergus.  These  plans  all  include 


features  relating  not  only-  to  flood  control,  but  also  the 
prevention  .of  erosion,  and  the  furthering  of  reforestation. 
It  seems  regrettable  that  we  have  to  give  so  much  attention 
to  flood  control  when  we  are  destroying  the  very  things  that 
would  prevent  so  much  water  from  running  off  in  such  a  short 
time,  and  I  think  this  government  can  do  very  well  in  having  a 
policy  of  forest  cdns"fervation  v;hich  will  prevent  such  extreme 
floods  from  time  to  time.   I  believe  the  Department  of 
Planning  and  Development  can  accomplish  much  for  the  benefit 
of  all  ou  r  people . 

Provincial  Secretary:  I  think  our  Provincial  Sec- 
retary deserves  a  special  v/ord  of  commendation.  He  has  a 
number  of  departments  to  handle  and  all  present  their  prob-- 
vlems.  He  is  deservedly  popular.  His  geniality  is  equalled 
only  by  the  industry,  intelligence  arid  sound  common  sense  with  ' 
which  he  attacks  the  problem. 

The  Provincial  Secretary  did  not  wait  for  the  passii^ 
of  the  Hours  of  Labour  Act  before  putting  his  own  ho^se  in 
order.  He  directed  the  initiation  of  the  48-hour  week  in  the 
provincial  reformatories  and  the  47  county  and  district  goals 
of  Ontario.  This  step  is  in  line  with  modern  progress  and  I 
know  meets  with  public  approval.   It  is  a  welcome  measure  of 
relief  to  the  hundreds  of  employees  which  it  affects. 

Many  of  Lhe  provincial  goals,  in  fact  most  of  them, 
are  not  only  obsolete,  but  relics  of  horse  and  buggy  days. 
It  may  be  a  lengthy  process,  but  I  think  that  the  municipalities 
will  be  glad  to  co-operate  in  the  abolition  of  many  of  these 


goals,  and  in  joining  in  any  reesonable  scheme  to  have  them 
replaced  by  provincial  prisons,  with  facilities  for  a  proper 
classification  of  inmates,  and  vdth  provision  for  productive 
and  health-giving  ;fvork  on  the  part  of  the  prisoners.  Prieon 
reform  in  Ontario  was  launched  by  the  late  Ron.  W.J,  Hanna. 
In  the  present  Secretary,  Mr.  Hanna  has  a  worthy  successor. 

I  am  glad  to  learn  that  the  Mimico  Reformatory,  com- 
monly knovm  as  the  ntario  Brick  and  Tile  Plant,  has  been 
returned  to  the  Province  by  the  Dominion  Government.  This 
institution  can  now  manufacture  brick,  tile  and  other  cefiinlics 
for  use  in  the  building  programine  to  follow  the  war.   Fo  more 
useful  institution  of  its  kind  exists  in  Ontario. 

The  Provincial  Secretary  is  also  to  be  congratulated 
in  his  modernization  of  the  Vital  Statistics  branch,  where 
microfilm  is  now  used  in  many  important  recording  operations. 
Accurate  vital  statistics  are  increasingly  necessary  and  will 
be  ensured  by  the  enactment  of  a  new  measure  shortly  to  be 
considered  by  this  House. 

In  conclusion,  I  wish  to  say  a  word  of  congratulation 
as  to  the  leadership  given  by  the  irime  Minister  of  this  Province 
He  has,  in  a  short  time,  implemented  almost  to  the  full  the  B2- 
polnt  program  on  which  his  government  was  elected.  He  has  ex- 
ploded the  old  idea  that  a  party  platform  was  something  to  be 
forgotten  once  pov/er  was  achieved.  He  has  *tated  on  more 
than  one  occasion  that  he  will  continue  to  lay  before  this 
House  legislation  which  he  feels  to  be  for  the  benefit  of  the 
people  of  Ontario  and  of  Canada.  If  his  program  is  unacceptable 


to  the  majority  of  this  Legislature  his  stand  will  be  refer- 
red to  the  electorate;  and  in  his  position  I  most  heartily 

In  latter  days  some  strange  rumours  have  come  from 
Ottawa.  It  has  been  suggested  that  Canada  must  have  her 
national  flag  and  her  ovm  national  anthem.   It  has  been  sug- 
gested that  Canada  should  look  to  membership  in  the  Pan- 
American  Union.   All  sorts  of  suggestions  have  been  thrown 
out,  and  all  with  a  viev/  to  weakening  the  British  partnership. 
Let  me  say  that  I  stand  with  the  Irime  Minister  when  he  de- 
clares that  so  long  as  Ontario  remains  Ontario,  the  Union 
Jack  will  wave  over  this  great  province  and  we  shall  continue 
to  sing  "God  Save  the  King"  —  and  mean  it.   I  am  proud  of 
my  citizenship  in  Canada,  and  in  this  Province  of  Ontario, 
but  1  am  prouder  atill  of  my  citizenship  in  the  Conmionwealth 
of  Nations.  And  when  our  men  and  our  women  come  back  from  the 
battlefields  I  know  they  will  ccme  back  with  the  same  feeling 
of  pride  in  Britain  and  in  British  institutions,  and  they  will 
help  us  through  the  years  in  making  this  a  still  greater  part 
of  "A  Greater  Empire  than  has  been," 

MB.  HAROLD  R.  SCOTT  (Peterborough):  Mr.  Speaker, 
in  rising  to  second  the  motion  of  the  hon.  member  for  Haldimand- 
Norfold  (Mr.  Martin),  I  feel  very  diffident  after  having 
listened  to  such  a  masterly  address. 

The  announced  policy  of  the  government  to  aim  at  the 
equalizetLon  of  educational  opportunity  has  been  implemented 
by  the  following  steps: 


By  the  extension  of  the  provincial  scholarship 
scheme  until  it  now  affords  more  than  500  able  students  a 
chance  at  higher  education  which  would  otherwise  have  been 
denied  them. 

By  the  marvellous  expansion  of  the  township  school 

By  the  transportation  of  the  older  students  to  sec- 
ondary schools. 

Ifer  the  development  of  a  special  type  of  rural  high 

And  above  all  by  the  (government's  assumption  of 
fifty  per  cent  of  the  cost  of  elementary  and  secondary  edu- 
cation in  the  province* 

Increased  emphasis  is  being  placed  on  the  teaching 
of  history  and  citizenship o 

The  government  has  realized  that  the  development  of 
the  pupil  depends  largely  upon  the  skill  and  goodwill  of 
the  teacher,  and  the  "Teaching  Profession  Act",  has  been  a 
long  striie  towards  conferring  upon  teaching  the  status  of  a 

Education  really  begins  in  the  home,  and  iwhat  oppor- 
tunity is  there  for  education  in  the  tenements  or  congested 
low-rental  areas?  By  reducing  taxation  on  the  homes  we  are 
going  to  have  an  increase  in  home  owning.   It  has  always 
been  my  contention  that  as  long  as  you  have  these  tenement, 
low-rental  areas  just  so  long  will  you  have  Communism, 
Socialism  and  every  other  kind  of  "ism",  but  let  a  man  own  his 


own  home  and  have  a  stake  in  the  canmunity  and  see  how 
quickly  he  drops  these  ideas  so  foreign  to  democracy. 

The  opening  of  the  training  centre  in  Toronto  for  ex- 
service  men  and  women  will  prove  a  great  boon  and  will  give 
them  a  chance  to  readjust  themselves  to  civilian  life  while 
at  the  same  time  learning  a  trade. 

It  will  be  an  opportunity  for  the  younger  ones  to 
catch  up  on  their  studies  without  having  to  go  back  to  school 
and  associate  with  those  who  were  theit  juniors  when  they 
left;  those  who  enlisted  and  have  done  their  part  in  the 

Thfl^  provincial  treasu«T«  is  to  be  (jiongr^tulated  on 
the  outcome  of  his  conferences  with  the  treasurer  of  the 
province  of  Quebec  on  the  matter  of  the  overlapping  of  tax- 
ation. I  feel  that  a  great  many  other  of  our  interprovincial 
and  federal  problems  could  soon  be  Ironed  away  if  we  could 
have  more  of  these  conferences  and  what  looks  like  impassable 
harries  would  become  bridges  to  link  us  more  closely. 

The  opening  of  the  Ontario  Mining  Institute  in  Hail«iy-- 
bury  is  a  new  step  and  one  that  should  be  productive  of  good 
results.  We  have  in  the  north  part  of  my  riding  great  areas 
of  rocky  land.  In  taking  this  up  with  the  Department  of  Mines- 
I  find  that  surveys  were  made  as  follows:  in  1852  and  3  and 
in  1907  and  8  —  doubtless  these  surveys  were  made  in  a 
Peterborough  canoe.  But  in  1942  -a  survey  was  made  by  car.  Now, 
as  I  am  very  conversant  with  the  rocky  areas  in  my  riding  — 
and  I  presume  it  is  the  same  in  other  areas  —  I  do  not  see 


how  a  man  with  a  car  could  make  a  comprehensive  mining  sur- 
vey  over  a  very  great  ar««.  ^ 

This  opens  up  a  great  avenue  of  employment  for  our 
returned  soldiers.  Let  those  who  wish  to  take  it  be  given 
a  thorough  course  in  prospecting  and  minerology,  then  put 
out  in  groups  under  competent  experts  to  make  a  thorough 
survey  of  this  great  area  of  rocky  land  which  extends  from 
Georgian  Bay  to  Ottawa.  Let  it  he  at  government  expense  and 
I  do  not  doubt  the  province  will  receive  back  the  cost  many 

I  am  pleased  to  see  that  the  Travel  and  Publicity 
Bureau  is  laying  pl^iAd  for  the  postwar  tourist  trades  I 
link  with  this  my  congratulations  to  the  Commissioners  of 
the  Temiskaming  and  Northern  Ontario  Railway,  firstly  on 
the  financial  success  of  the  railway  during  the  past  year 
and  secondly  on  the  foresight  they  are  using  in  preparing  to 
take  advantage  of  the  great  natural  playground  we  have  at 
our  own  door.  We  are  specially  fortunate  in  having  as  Chair- 
man of  this  Commission,  Colonel  Reynolds,  a  man  who  knows 
and  loves  the  north  country  and  has  the  vision  to  see  the 
posaiillities  o*-' ti;iture  expansion  of  the  tourist  tradeo 

Located  as  my  riding  is,  not  at  the  gateway  to  the 
Kawartha  district,  but  in  the  very  heart  of  it,  the  tour- 
ist industry  is  one  of  our  best  cash  crops.  I  notice  the 
Minister  of  Game  and  Fisheries  (>Mr.  Dunbar)  prick  up  his 
ears,  and  he  will  agree  with  me  that  we  can  spend  all  the 
money  we  like  on  advertising  for  tourists,  but  if  they  do 


not  get  good  sport  whey  they  are  here,  they  will  not  come 
back  again.   I  note  that  we  are  going  to  expand  our  fish 
hatcheries  tb  assist  nature,  which  is  highly  desirable.  But 
as  long  as  our  spring  floods  are  allowed  to  rise  overnight, 
then  fall  as  rapidly,  natural  increase  cannot  take  place,, 
Many  of  our  game  fish  spawn  in  the  spring  in  shallow  waters 
near  the  shore  and  when  rapid  changes  of  water  levels  take 
place,  the  spawn  is  left  to  dry  on  the  shore  instead  of 
hatching  out  and  helping  to  keep  our  waters  stocked* 
Temporary  dams  will  help  this  but  it  does  not  go  to  the 
root  of  the  problem. 

In  our  efforts  at  conservation  of  the  fish  and 
game  there  will  be  openings  for  many  of  our  returned  men 
who  will  enjoy  this  type  of  vrork.  I  would  suggest  that  the 
Department  plan  nov/  a  thorough  course  of  training  in  both 
conservation  of  wild  life  and  legal  aspects  of  the  Job  in 
preparation  for  the  return  of  these  men. 

To  get  our  tourists  in  to  the  lakes  we  must  ask  the 
Department  of  Highways  to  see  that  we  have  the  roads.  Our 
main  highways  are  in  excellent  shape  but  the  lakes  lying 
along  these  highways  are  liable  to  be  fished  out,  leaving 
the  best  sport  in  the  more  inaccessible  lakes.  We  cannot 
ask  the  outlying  municipalities  with  low  assessments  to 
assume  total  cost  of  these  roads  into  these  lakes,  as  the 
taxes  from  cottages  would  not  begin  to  cover  the  cost  but 
at  the  same  time  each  cottager  v/ill  spend  from  :Jp300  to  ^500 
annually  in  the  larger  shopping  centres  lying  outside  the 



Hand  in  glove  with  the  opening  up  of  more  tourist 
areas,  in  a  year  ot   two  will  come  a  demand  for  hydro  service, 
thus  linking  up  another  department  of  the  government.   The 
Commissioner  of  Hydro  is  to  be  congratulated  on  the  excel- 
lent showing  that  his  department  mAde  last  year.   To  para- 
phrase a  great  statesman  --  I  nearly  said  "another  great 
statesman"  —  "Never  did  so  few  do  so  much  with  so  little 
material."   During  the  past  year  433  miles  of  rural  primary 
lines  were  added  and  service  given  to  10,000  new  subscribers. 
I  know  that  his  department  has  plans  for  future  rural  expan- 
sion which  will  go  a  long  way  towards  helping  solve  the 
problem  of  keeping  the  rising  generation  on  the  farm  and  will 
also  help  to  solve  many  of  our  postwar  unemployment  problems. 

Peterborough  city  is  highly  industrialized  and  to 
keep  the  wheels  of  these  industries  turning  we  must  have 
electricity.  Located  as  we  are  on  the  Trent  Canal  system 
we  have  quite  a  power  development  at  our  own  door,  but  in 
dry  seasons  especially,  and,  to  a  certain  esctent  at  all 
ti-^.es,  we  must  purchase  power  from  the  Hydro  Electric  sys- 
tem. I  feel  we  hear  too  much  about  potential  power  going 
to  waste  in  far  away  places  without  examining  our  own  re- 
sources to  see  what  can  be  done  to  develop  or  restore  them. 

This  links  up  the  Department  of  Lands  and  Forests 
with  Game  and  Fisheries  and  Hydro  in  that  many  of  the  water- 
sheds of  our  district  have  been  denuded  of  timber,  firstly, 
by  man,  then  by  fires,  permitting  the  snow  and  ice  to  go  away 


in  one  grand  rush  of  waters  first  thing  in  the  spring  in- 
stead of  melting  slowly  in  the  shade  of  the  forest,  soaking 
into  the  ground  and  seeping  gradually  into  our  lakes  and 
streams  to  maintain  a  constant  level  of  water  through  the 
summer.   This  is  also  the  explanation  why  so  many  farmers.* 
wells  hare  gone  dry  and  they  have  to  haul  water  for  their 
live  stock  and  why  so  many  sub-marginal  farm  lands  have  beai 
eroded  or  become  mere  areas  of  blow  sand,  fit  neither  for 
man  nor  beast. 

I  am  glad  to  see  the  government  taking  the  attitude 
that  our  forests  are  not  just  a  milch  cow  for  the  present, 
but  a  heritage  we  should  pass  on  to  coming  generations.  The 
experiments  for  the  control  of  insect  pests  and  disease  wiH 
mean  the  salvation  of  thousands  of  acres  of  good  timber. 

Most  especially  t   am  interested  in  the  government's 
attitude  towards  reforestation.   In  the  northern  part  of  my 
riding  are  great  areas  of  crown  land.   Some  of  this  is  cov- 
ered with  timber  and  under  licence  to  the  lumbering  intere^, 
but  there  are  many  thousands  of  acres  that  have  been  cut 
over  and  let  revert  to  the  ground,  and  then  burnt  over.   Too 
many  people  do  not  realize  that  the  soil  from  which  we  raise 
our  best  crops  is  merely  decayed  foliage  and  when  a  forest 
fire  goes  over  an  are*  it  not  only  burns  the  standing  timber 
but  the  soil  as  well,  which  is  really  a  form  of  peat.   These 
areas  lie  there  and  produce  a  crop  of  i.'iiiite  birch  and  poplar 
which  seem  to  seed  themselves  and  have  little  commercial  value  , 
We  are  faced  with  the  potential  problem  of  posDWar  unemploy- 


ment  during  the  period  of  transition  from  v/artirae  to  peace 
time  production,  and  vdth  the  definite  problem  of  our  return- 
ed soldiers,  seme  of  whom  will  not  want  to  take  on  an  inside 
Job  and  in  other  cases  for  reasons  of  health  they  will  be  bet- 
ter outside.  Let  us  become  future-generation  conscious,  and, 
if  necessary,  go  in  debt  for  the  future  to  give  employment 
to  these  men  in  planting  trees  which  in  sixty  to  one  hundred 
years  will  pay  back  many  fold  the  investment  we  now  make,  be- 
sides, being  of  immediate  benefit  to  the  Departments  of  Game 
and  Fisheries,  Hydro  and  Agriculture  through  maintaining  con- 
stant water  levels. 

Let  it  become  part  of  our  school  curriculum  to  teach 
the  children  the  benefits  to  be  derived  from  this.   I  do  not 
suggest  to  the  hon.  Minister  of  Education  (  Mr.  Drew)  that 
the  teacher  set  aside  a  period  for  this ,  but  let  there  be  a 
specialist  who  will  go  from  school  to  school.  Children  are 
always  interested  in  an  outsider  who  comes  bearing  a  message, 
and  it  is  to  these  children  we  must  sell  the  itlea,  because  it 
is  they  and  their  children  who  will  reap  the  greatest  bene- 
fit from  this  undertaking.   In  addition  to  their  school  flower 
beds  let  them  have  tree  seedling  beds,  then  follow  through 

and  do  their  own  transplanting. 

There  is  no  phase  of  government  that  offers  so  much 

potential  employment  as  does  this  department;  first,  in  the 

protection  of  the  forests,  then  in  the  management  of  them  and 

in  the  reforestation  of  burnt  over  areas;  then  in  cutting  of 

timber,  the  processing  to  lumber,  wallboards ,  plastics,  etc. 

All  these  processes  have  received  a  great  impetus  during  the 


war  and  will  contribute  largely  to  our  postwar  economy. 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  I  am  sure  the  House  will  agree 
with  me  that  this  is  not  visionary  planning  but  sound,  con«- 
crete  propositions  that  can  be  carried  out  and  will  go  a  long 
way  toward  solving  many  of  our  postwar  problems,  but  they  can 
only  be  carried  out,  Mr.  Speaker,  if  we  forget  that  we  are 
Grits,  Tories,  C.C.F.,  Labour  Progressive  or  what  have  you « 
Let  us  forget  this  eternal  sparring  for  political  advantage 
and  remember  that  the  electors  of  Ontario,  whether  they  used 
^ood  Judgement  or  not,  sent  us  here  to  legislate  for  the  pres- 
ent, the  immediate  future  and  the  distant  future.  Let  us  all 
put  our  shoulders  to  the  wheel  and  make  this  Ontario  of  ours, 
not  a  visionary  Utopia,  but  a  real  one. 

Mr.  Speaker,  I  take  great  pleasure  in  secondirg  the 
motion  that  the  Speech  from  the  Throne  be  adopted. 

MR.  E.B.  JOLLIFFEE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
Mr.  Speaker,  I  move  the  adjournment  of  the  debate. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  debate  adjourned, 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Mr.  Speaker, 
I  move  the  adjournment  of  the  House. 

MR.  E.B.  JOLLIFFEE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition):  Would 
the  hon.  Prime  Minister  indicate  the  nature  of  to-morrow»s 

MR.  DREW:  Yes.   We  will  proceed  with  the  bills  on 

the  Order  Paper,  and  this  debate  will  be  adjourned  until 


Motion  agreed  to  and  the  House  adjourned  at  4.17  p.m. 

(Page  135  follows « ) 

-  ±%JO     - 



Toronto a  Ontario p 

February  21,  1945. 

SPEAKER:  Honourable  William  Jo  Stewart,  CoBoB, 

The  House  met  at  three  o'clock. 

Prayer So 

MR.  SPEAKER:  Presenting  petitionso 

Reading  and  receiving  petitionso 

Presenting  reports  by  committeeso 


HONc  GEORGE  A.  EREW  (Prime  Minister):  MToSpeaker^ 
I  movej  seconded  by  Mto  Blaokv/ell,  that  MTo  Reynolds, Member 
for  the  electoral  district  of  Leeds,  be  appointed  chairman 
of  the  Gommittee  of  the  !.)/hole  House  for  the  present  sessiono 

MRo  ROBERT  THORNBERRY  (Hamilton  Centre):  MToSpeaker 
I  would  like  to  move  an  amendment  to  that  motiono   I  would 
like  to  move  that  the  non«  member  for  Dovercourt  (BJTo 
Duckworth)  be  appointed  chairman,  in  view  of  the  demonstra- 
tion of  his  wide  experience  and  knowledge  of  procedure o 

MRo  DEtEW:  Mr»  Speaker,  in  presenting  this  motion,  I 
want  one  thing  to  be  quite  clearly  understood*   I  had  hoped 
that  the  hono  member  who  acted  as  Chairman  of  the  whole 
House  last  year  (MTo  Patterson)  would  continue  this  year;  he 
indicated  that  he  did  not  wish  to  do  so,  and  I  may  say  that  I 
have  delayed  producing  this  motion  in  the  hope  that  he  might 
reconsider,  because  he  has  given  to_ this  Legislature  impartial 
and  good  judgment,  and  I  should  have  been  very  happy  to  have 

ISTo   Drew. 

introduced  a  motion  that  he  act  as  Chairmano 

However,  it  was  on  his  own  request  that  he  is  not, 
and  for  that  reason  I  am  moving  the  motion  that  one  whom 
I  think  we  may  consider  to  the  the  dean  of  the  House,  should 
act  as  Chairman  for  this  sessions 

MRo  DUCKWORTH:  An  hon..  member  got  up  and  suggested 
my  nameo   It  would  not  be  right  if  I  did  not  support  ito 
And  I  think  he  is  righto   Why  should  I  object? 

Motion  agreed  tOo 

BTo  DUCKWORTH:  You  declared  the  motion  carried,  MTo 
Speaker,  and  it  was  not  even  voted  upono 

MRo  SPEAKER:   Introduction  of  billSo 

HON,  WESLEY  G.  THOMPSON:  (Minister  of  lands  and  Forests) 
MTo  Speaker,  I  movOp  seconded  by  KTo  Daley,  that  leave  be 
given  to  introduce  a  bill  entituled,  "An  Act  to  amend  the 
Counties'  Reforestation  Aot,"  a»d  that  same  be  now  read  for  the 
first  time* 

Motion  agreed  to^  and  bill  read  the  first  timeo 

HONo  WESLEY  G.  THOMPSON  (Minister  of  Lands  and  Forests): 
Mr,  Speakepiji  I  movep  seconded  by  Mro  Daley j  that  leave  be  given 
to  introduce  a  bill  entituled,  "An  Aot  to  Amend  the  Grown  Timber 
Act,"  and  that  same  be  now  read  for  the  first  time*, 

Motion  agreed  to, and  bill  read  the  first  timeo 

MRo  GARFIELD  ANDERSON  (Fort  William):  MTo  Speaker, 
would  the  Jtono  minister  explain  the  bill,  please? 

MRo  THOMPSON:  The  section  repealed  provides  for.  pa3rment 
by  certain  townships  of  twot.per  cent  of  the  dues  in  respect  of 
timber  cut  on  government  road  allowanceso   That  money,  so 
received,  was  to  be  spent  on  the  highways o   The  amount  involved 
was  so  small,  that  the  cost  of  accounting  is  more  than  tbe  revenue 
received  from  ito 

MRo  HAREY  Co  NIZON  (Brant):  iVhat  was  the  purport  of 
the  first  bill,  may  I  ask? 

-   137  -  2-21-45 

ItTo   Thoiapsono 

MR.  THOMPSON:      The  authority  now  vested  in  townships 
and  districts  without  councils  is  proposed  to  be  extended 
to  municipal  township  in  organized  districts,  with  regard 
to  reforestationo 

Mro  Speaker,    I  move,   seconded  by  MTo   Daley,   that 
leave  be  given  to  introduce  a  bill  entituled   "An  Act  respect- 
ing Forest  Engineers,"  and  that  same  be  now  read  for  the 
first  timeo 

liotlon  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  tlnieo 

Jfflo   GEORGE  I.  HARVEY   (Sault  Sto  Marie):     Mr.   Speaker, 
would  the  hono  minister  ejcplain  the  intent  of  the  bill? 

MR.   THOMPSON:      The  purpose  of  this  bill  is   to  provide 
the  province  of  Ontario  with  trained  men,  certified  by  exam- 
ination, as  being  capable  of  preparing  plans  suitable  for  the 
management  of  forests,  particularly  on  crown  lands o 

MRo  WILLIAM  J.   GaRUMMETT   (Cochrane  South):     MTo   Speaker, 

before  the  Orders  of  the  Day  are  called,   I  wish  to  rise  on  a 

point  of  privilege  to  protest  an  article  appearing  in   the 

Windsor  Daily  star,  of  Monday,  February  19th«         A  part  of 

the  item  reads  as  follows: 

"It  had  baan  rumoured  that 
W.  J.  Grummett,  CoCoFo,  Cochrane  South, 
might  have  leanings  toward  the  Progressive 
Conservatives,  but  the  opposition  holds 
DTo  Grummett  to  be  one  of  its  most  re- 
liable members  and  he  himself  protested 
the  rumour  hotly.       In  fact,  he  has  been 
acting  as  chairman  of  the  party  oauouso" 

Ifro  Speaker,   this  report  is  utterly  false  in  every 

statement.       In  the  first  place,   I  am  not  a  doctor.       In  the 

second  place,   I  have  no  leanings  towards  the  Progressive 

Conservatives,        I  might  say  that  in  all  ray  voting  experience 

I  have   voted  once  for  the  Conservatives,   and   some  considerable 

time  ago  I  did  vote  a  couple  of  times  for  the  Liberals,  but 

that  was  before  I  reached  the  age  of  discretion. 

-  138  -  2-21-45 

Mr*  Speaker,  I  am  proud  of  the  fact  that  many 
years  ago,  even  before  the  C.CF.  was  so  organized,  I 
was  working  and  campaigning  for  Labour  candidates  in 
Northern  Ontario.   That  was  prior  to  the  Reg4na  con- 
ference*  After  the  Regina  conference  I  was  at  one  of 
the  first  CoC.F,  conferences  held  in  Northern  Ontariog 
and  at  that  time  I  Joined  the  C.CF.  party,  and  I  do 
not  intend  at  any  time  to  cross  the  floor. 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  I  may  say  that  rumours  of  this 
kind  are  vile  and  treacherous.   We  have  traced  this  down 
and  I,  on  my  part,  am  satisfied  where  it  originated,  and 
in  that  connection  I  can  only  say  we  could  not  expect 
anything  else  from  the  person  whom  I  accuse  as  the  source 
of  this  rumour.   This  party,  rebuffed  in  his  attempts  to 
attach  himself  to  the  body  of  the  CoCoF.  party,  like  a 
barnacle  to  the  body  of  a  whale,  is  now  frantically  try- 
ing to  attack  the  C.C.Fo  party  by  attacking  personally 
members  of  that  party. 

Mto  Speaker,  we  deplore  attacks  of  that  kind  upon 
our  members,  and  I  can,  assure  you  that  we  all  —  the  CoCoF.- 
are  one  bmndred  per  cent  behind  our  leader,  and  will  re- 
main SOo 

UR.  DUCKWORTH:  Mr.  Speaker  — 

MR.  SPEAKER :  I  reoogniZQ  the  hon,  member  for 
Prescott  (Mto  Belanger). 

MR.  AURELIEN  BELANGER  (Prescott):   Mr.  Speaker,  as 
a  matter  of  privilege  —  and  in  fairness  to  the  Prime 
Minister  —  there  is  a  question  I  should  like  to  put  to  the 
hono  Prime  Minister  of  the  province.   His  answer  will  be 
of  great  --  I  might  say  paramount  —  importance  to  one- 
tenth  of  the  citizens  of  this  province,  and  very  many  nation- 
al groups,  and  possibly  perhaps  for  different  reasons,  ad- 

139  «  2-21-45 

MTo  Griommett 

verae  one  to  the  other,   to  every  citizen  of  the  province 

of  Ontario o 

I  am  quoting  from  the  Montreal  Standard  of 

December  9th,  in  nvhich  it  is  stated: 

"Beverley  Baxter p  noted  English 
author"  «- 

and  incidentally  he  Is  a  member  of  the  British  Parliament f, 

well  known  in  Canada  I  am  sureo 

"—quoted  Premier  George  Drew  of 
Ontario  as  follows  during  the 
recent  visit  of  the  latter  ito 

♦»  «I  want  British  stock 
for  Ontario 0  Ve  can  take  thousands 
of  your  people c   The  one  thing  that 
can  keep  the  Frenoh*Canadian  pressure 
within  bounds  is  a  strong  Ontario, 
peopled  by  British  stocko   That  is 
why  I  rejoice  that  so  many  British  girls 
are  coming  back  as  Canadian  soldiorn' 
wivoso  We  need  them  and  want  theme'" 

I  will  not  oommenti  of  course,  until  I  get  from  the 
hon»  Prime  Minister  his  answer  as  .to  whether  he  la  properly 
ijuoted  by  Beverley  Baxter,  or  no  to 

HON.  GSORGE  A«  DREW  (Prime  Minister):   If  the  hono 
member  had  sent  this  to  me  before  I  would  have  haid  the  ad- 
vantage of  seeing  the  article,  but  I  carta! nly  have  no  recol<^ 
laotion  of  making  such  statemento 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Oders  of  the  dayo 

mo   J'OSSPH  B.  SAISBERG  (St.  Andrew):  Mr«  Speaker,  I 
would  crave  your  indulgence  for  a  moment  -— 

UR,   SPEAKER:   I  am  sorry «   The  House  makes  the  rules „ 
not  meo   I  am  here  to  enforce  themo   I  am  sorry,  but  if  I 
give  you  the  privilege,  I  will  have  to  give  it  to  other  hono 
members  0 

Orders  of  the  Dayo 

-  140  -  2-21-45 

Ur«  Belanger 

HON.   GEORGE  A.I3REW  (PrimB  Minister):   MToSpeaker, 
I  joove  the  House  now  resolve  itself  into  a  oommittee  of  the 


Ifotlon  agreed  to;  the  House  in  Committee,  Ur. 
Beynoldp  in  the  ohair* 

HON.  GSCmOS  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):   Order  NOo2 

CLEHK  07  THE  HOUSE:  Second  order »  House  in 
eommittee  on  Bill  Noo  25,  "Ajo.  Aot  to  provide  for  the  voting 
of  Active  Service  Voters  at  a  General  Election  to  the 
Assembly,"  Ifr.  Blaokwello 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Bill  Noo25,  "An  Act  to  provide  for 
the  voting  of  Active  Service  Voters  at  a  General  Election 
to  the  Assembly.'*   Shall  section  1  form  part  of  the  Bill? 

Motion  agreed  to.   ^1 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Shall  section  2  form  part  of  the 


MR.  E,  B.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition):  UTo 
Chairman,  before  we  take  up  section  2:  I  believe  that  the 
hone  Attorney  General  is  going  to  move  an  amendment.   I 
think  it  should  be  read,  and  I  presume  it  will  be. 

MR.  BUCKWZLL:  Yes,  Mr.  Chairman. 

When  the  Bill  was  discussed  Xia.  principle,  on  second 
reading,  I  indicated  at  that  time  that  when  section  2  was 
reached  I  would  move  the  amandmants  indicated  at  that  time. 

MR.  M.  F.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):   I  might  suggest  the 
Prime  Minister  might  better  spank  his  unruly  member  right  out 
in  our ..ipresenoe,  and  not  take  him  into  the  wood  shedo 

HON.  GEORGE  H.  DUNBAR  (Provincial  Secretary):   That 
la  quite  a  good  Joke,  but  we  who  have  been  in  this  House  for 
a  niimber  of  years  have  seen  some  hon.  members  who  should 
perhaps  have  been  led  out  of  the  House. 

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-  141  -  2-21-45 

The  Chairman. 

UB.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):  Do  you  feel  better  now? 

m,   DUNBAH:  Yes,  how  do  you  feel? 

THE  CHAIRMAN:   Order. 

MRe  BLACKWELL:   Well,  I  had  no  desire  to  hurry 
the  House  at  all,  nor  to  deprive  some  of  the  mambers  of  their 
obvious  desire  to  relish  a  certain  thing,  but  if  the 
incident  is  closed,  for  the  moment,  I  will  now  proceed, 

THE  CHAIRMAN:   Prooeedo 

Jffl.  BLACKWELL:   I  now  move  in  section  2,  subsection  1, 
following  the  words  "the  Chief  Election  Officer"  in  the 
second  line,  there  should  be  inserted  the  words:  "appointed 
under  the  Election  Act,  1945,"  And  I  further  move  that  at 
the  end  of  the  second,  line  in  subsection  1  of  section  2, there 
be  added  the  following  words;  and  the  words  are: 
»*for  obtaining  the  votes  of  Active  Service  voters  including 
prisoners  of  waro" 

MR.  GRUMMETT:   Would  the  hon.  Attorney  General  mind 
repeating  that? 

MR.  BLACKWELL:  Yes,  I  shall  be  very  happy  to  do  soo 
May  I  aslc  the  hon«  gentleman  if  he  desires  me  to  read 
both  of  them? 

m.   G-RUMMETT:   The  last  one<, 

UR.  WILLIAMS ;  Will  you  repeat  the  first  one,  for  my 

MR.  BLACKWELL:  Yes,  I  shall  be  very  happy  to  do  soo 

The  first  of  the  small  amendments  is  moved  as 
follows:  Section  2,  subsection  1,  in  the  seond  line,  after 
the  words  "Chief  Election  Officer"  to  insert  the  following 
words:  "appointed  under  the  Election  Act  of  1945o" 

And  in  the  same  line,  the  second  amendment,  moved 
as  follows,  after  the  word  "regulation"  at  the  very  end  of 
the  line,  add  the  following  words:  "for  obtaining  the  votes 

.  aa[!!ii 

.^efirtO      :IUMfllAHO  SHT 

^ii  ofl  i>Ari  I  ,xxe\(/    :xiawxoiaa  ,ai 

tiedt  lo  ?  to  MEoa  tfrlxq^b  ot  toa  ^LIb  to  •ai;oH  exl* 

f*e?-  '  i    «;fnefflcxfli  eriif  lol   tbezoj^o  ei  jaajjioai 

.fjeeoo-rt     .'MAMfllAHO  SHT 
9Vist   OTOffl  woa  I      :,!J3W}!0iJS    .mi 

aiS  telxlO  saj-"    axnow   anj  amwoilol 

&«"  beiteeixl   9d  bluodn  aiorid"   ,eaiX  ficooaa 

f  A.     ".e^ei    .toA  ffoi*09XI  edi  x^baxj 

•I"'-'  ?aa;je  ni   eaxx  .cxiooda   edJ  lo  fcii©  ©rid- 

i  ban   itbtam  anlwoXXol  Bdi  bebba  ad 
Sn;  108  srttoA  lo   aecf-or   j?rf3-  :Brrlrrh8i'cfo  lol" 

"»i«w  to  aieaoaliq 
feffXin  lBtBa0C  X9n.'T0f:fA   »nod  ail*  6Xx;oW      cTTSIMUSO   .flII 

DaoT  c3;t   affi  ftarcXeefi  ail  11  aamaXifxias    .aod  arl^  iaa  I  t^ 

^r:a£f;t  lo  d;^od 
ooao  ;}-ajaX  aifT     :TTffliaiUHS   «fllf 
3DK  rtol  ,aao  Jaiil  ed^f  ifaa^ai  x/o^  XXXI     rSIUIXIIW  ,m 

.  •  o-fl      -lav  ad  xisisa  1    ,eeY     :a»iaw2tUAaa  ,m 
BB  baron  sX  BtaBobaaeiB  LIbbib  Bdi  lo  taaXl  arfl 
'Tf^  r   fcrroae   sriJ-  nx   ,X  aoi^oeecfue    ,S  noiJoeS   :awoXXol 

•^unsojLici   an  J  Jieeal  o;f  "laomo  rxolifoeXa.  leXilO"  afi-row  ed^t 
"   c!^9X  lo  fok  aoltoelZ  edt  lebnu  fiecfrrloqqB"    ;eJ&tow 
Jbeyosi   ,txiatabnaaiB  ^nooaa  Bdt    tanXX  amae  e/ld-  ni  bnk 
to  fixte  ^av  art*  ta  "floXJaXxjaat"  Aiow  ad*  tte^fls   .awoXXol  aa 
eetoT  9d*  :salalBtdo  icl"    .-afiaov  aniwoXXcflt  ad;t  l)Jba  ,oaXX  eri* 

-  142  -  2-21-45 


of  Active  Service  voters,  including  prisoners  of  war." 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Shall  subsection  1  as  amended  form 

part  of  the  Bill. 

Jffl.  BLACKWELL:  Just  a  moment,  Mr.  Chairman.  I 

think  if  I  may  make  a  suggestion  for  the  convenience  of  the 

House,  I  feel  that  the  attitude  of  som  hon.  members  of  the 

House  will  be  directed  to  that  section  as  a  vrtiole,  and  for 

that  reason  if  I  may  have  your  leave  to  dp  so,  so  that  all 

the  amendments  relating  to  the  whole  of  the  section  may  bo 

before  the  House,  I  shall  proceed  now  and  move  the  last  of 

the  amendments  I  indicated  I  would  move. 

MR.  JOLLIFFE:   That  is  very  desirable o 

UR?  BLACK'tfELL:  In  the  same  section,  that  is 

section  2,  I  move  that  there  be  added  a  subsection  numbered 

"S",  which  reads  as  follows: 

"Subsection  3:  Regulations  made  under 
this  section  shall  have  no  effect  unless 
the  Chief  Election  Officer  has  certified 
over  his  signature  that  in  the  preparation 
of  the  regulations  he  has  consulted  with 
the  Chief  Electoral  Officer  for  Canada, and 
that  the  regulations  are,  suDject  to 
section  3,  as  nearly  as  may  be  in  the  same 
form  and  to  the  same  effect  as  the 
Canadian  War  Service  Voting  Begulations, 
1944,  and  the  Prisoners  of  War  Voting 
Regulations,  1944,  being  Schedules  "A"  and 
"B"  respectively  to  an  Act  to  provide 
regulations  enabling  Canadian  war  ser~ 
vice  electors  to  exercise  their  franchise 
and  Canadian  prisoners  of  war  to  vote  by 
proxy  at  any  general  election  held  during 
the  present  war;  also  to  provide  amend- 
ments to  the  Dominion  Election  Act,  1938, 
consequential  to  such  regulations  that 
are  made  necessary  by  the  advent  of  the 
said  war,  being  chapter  26  of  the  statutes 
passed  in  the  fifth  session  of  the  19th 
Parliament  of  Canadao" 

Mr.  Chairman  I  have  now  moved  the  three  amendments, 
with  relation  to  Section  2,  whioh  I  indicated  on  second 
reading  I  would  move© 

Accordingly,  the  whole  of  Section  2,  amended  as  then 

■l;toA  lo 

^ii^s.:jiiS)'i  ajaaoflaea^'  ©,. 

HH  ' 

w  0ii; 

-  143  •*  •     2-21-45 

MTo  Blackwall. 

proposed,   Is  now  before   the  House. 

VR,   MITC iELL  F.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):    Those  of  us  in 
this  corner  of  the  House  are  under  a  handicap,   inasmuch 
as  w©  have  not  a  copy  of  the  Bill,  as  amondedo 

I  wonder  if  the  hon,  Attorney-General  would 
supply  us  with  such  a  copy? 

UR«  BIACKWELL:   1^  under standiig,   lifro  Chairman, 
was,   although  there  was  not  a  printed  amendment,   an 
amendment  was  made  available,   to  the  hon»   member  from 
Elgin   (MPo  Hepburn)   on  Monday.        If  he  has  misland   it, 
for  his  convenience  I  have  here  another  copy  of  the  Act, 
which  I  believe  has  that  amendment  in  it,   and  I  will 
make  it  available  to  him. 

MR.  HARRY  C.   NIXON  (Brant):      I  presume  the  hon. 
Minister   (MTo  Blaokwell)   will  have  the  Bill  reprinted 
before  we  ask  a  third  reading. 

MR«   BLACKySTELL:       Mr.   Chairman,    I  feel  that 
the  Bill  should  be  reprinted  before  a   third  reading  is 

MRo  EDWARD  B.    JOLLIFFE   (Leader  of  the   Opposition): 
I  quite  agree   that  it   should  be   reprinted  before   the 
third  reading,   and  I  raised  no  objection  at  all  to  the 
Bill  being  taken  into  committee  to-day.  However,    I  am 

not  in  a  position  to  complain,  having  seen  the  proposed 
amendment  on  Monday* 

One  or  two  of  the  hon.  members  have   just  suggest- 
ed to  me  in  a  case  of  this  kind  it  would  be  better  to 
have  an  amendment  of  such  importance  in  the  hands  of  all 
the  hon.   members  of  the  House  before  it   is   taken  in 

•  •awoii  aad'   OTolod  wen  ex   ,D©Boqoaq 
i    tCBotbnaA  »  ittau  ©is   ©airOH   exlJ-  ^o  Tenioo   ci.i{& 

?TTC;r/     fl    rfCUE     rf^t' tW    BIT 

»  toa  SAW  •10x1;^  itS^o^^X'   iCiBW 

•  YBbaoM  no   (rxixidqeH   ^.iMi   iilgla 
ana  •Tceri  #7311  I  ©onelflavnoo  Bid  lol 

.oiiri  o^  «Xtf0ll070  ;ti  fi>iii^ 
..      ^ 
•  •    ^^'  --"'^   ''iw   (XlewaloBia   .-aS)   is^e 

f  s>c(  ibaaJLffi  X  dna^  tSnlt^aai  i< 

ma  I    .levwirr  -.  tb-c-f  ©aJtlancoo  otriJt  naaiad^  snlarf  XXtG 

-v-r,...^.    ^jj.  aoiJJtaoq  a 

«Yii»Z>no}d  no  ^naxobaacxa 
,.     a  Jftot   •Tflif  aiedfljain  •nori  arf*  lo  omt  10  aaO 
r:*   is-^-  r.'irow  ;}'i  fcnlji  eJ:ri:f   lo  aaao  b  ai  =...  •  ^ 

:  aaxxatio<pi  xiox;e  lo  ^aKsbaeeiB  r 
.xati:a*  ei  ;!•£  aiolacf  aax/oH  ail*  to  aiacfmea   .norf  erf+ 

-  144  -  2-21-46 

Mr.  Blackwell. 

I  may  not  be  the  person  to  raise  such  a  point, 
because  I  did  not  rnalce  any  objection,  but  I  think  that 
would  be  good  practice*   I  Mght  say,  alsom  the  effect 
of  these  amendments  is  to  require  that  any  regulations 
made  shall  be  certified  by  the  chief  election  officer  of 
this  province,  to  be  as  closely  as  may  be  the  same  as 
the  Federal  regulations  which  are  already  on  the  Federal 
Statute  books,  and  I  think  it  might  be  drawn  to  the 
attention  of  the  House  that  the  hon.  members  have,  on 
their  desks,  the  Canadian  War  Services  Voting  Regulations 
of  1944,  being  schedules  A  and  B  to  the  Dominion  Act« 

MR*  BLACKW£LL.t  X  am  sorry,  Mr.  Chairman,  Schedule 
B  is  unfortxinately  not  in  this  pamphlet  which  is  termed 
the  Canadian  War  Services  Voting  Regulations.  You  have 
to  go  to  the  Act  for  it.  For  some  reason  it  was  not 
printed  la  the  pamphlet, 

ipi,  JOLLIFFE:  The  Attorney-General  is  quite  cor- 
rect. Tilt   Bkore  Important  of  the  two  schedules  is  the  one 
7«lating  to  the  conduct  of  a  direct  vote  by  all  those  who 
•90  Aot  prlitfters  of  war,  which  is  contained  in  the  book- 
let which  the  members  have  on  their  desks.  For  the  pur- 
pose of  clarifying  the  matter,  may  I  say  that  we  regard  the 
amendments  now  proposed  by  the  hon.  Attorney-General  as 
a  substantially  Important  improvemeat  on  the  original  Bill 
In  that  they  do  relate  this  Bill  and  the  machinery  to  be 
established  under  this  Bill  to  the  existing  Dominion  regu- 
lations which  are  on  the  Dominion  Statute  books  and  to 
whlch^^we  can  refer  at  any  time.  Our  position,  however,  is 
still  what  it  was  stated  to  be  the  other  day,  namely,  that 
it  would  be  preferable  to  incorporate  in  our  own  Statute 
Books,  as  schedules  to  our  own  Act,  the  Ontario  regula- 

,*cio<i  B  doc©   sslAT  o*  Boaieq  erirf   eo   ion  ^JEua  I 

J-B/i:!   '  i^if^   .coiJoet'^'    -  -c   eiam  Jon  Jili-  ^         r- 

"flo?  ,  ^J  al  a^nemJifleiaB  daext^  lo 

r^   ■v»!  1^    ,.^  f    ..w    f>^;*;*^....    „,^    •  'r.rla   efiem 

;  i3Bi  as  ^ieaoio  ea  ed  o*   ^aoniTotq   BldJ 

'««»iXe  «i«  rieXriw  axtol^Bli/s®'  XflisJ^el   srlj^ 

■'*•<■  ialdi   I  Jbca   ,aafood   eiaiBiZ 

eti  Ht9dm»Bi  .Aod  mi;r   imAi  eaiJoH  »di  lo  aol^aa^^^c 

a.  '»'slv^©a  taW  nalfijMisn  erf*   .B<aeJ&  itef-t 

^■'-  i  Jtoa  A  aoi 

6iuitf  'A    ,rttOB   OB    I       iJJMMfJtOAJa    «HM 

i)*^'''  ^^iA^euaq,  Bldi  al  ion  ■^iGfanDticlcp  ef 

tos  BBv  '85 »i   aiBOB  To'?^  lol  itoA   eilif  oJ^  08  ci 

,t9ld<imBii  adt  Al  £)6.tniicr 

'  iiw  «ef  V  io9%ib  B  io  iToxritooB  ei!/  ol  3al#BX»« 

"   -'    ^..   .,-„  ^,8^  jQ  aiajwiiii  ^eii  tt9 

-itsq,  9Ai  IO?      .BJiaei)  ii»'  dved  aTadmBin  aiU  doliiv  #•! 

.?aeT  ew  *Bii*  Y«s   T  ^«ra  ,^«J:tfiffl  ed?!^  snl^litafB  lo  aeoq; 

as  Xb-^  ^"  ^  '-"  C5u^  .    #ofl  BiflBBLficemtf 

XXM  Xar  JAaBBTCiqici  #iiB;^7oqml  ^XXBi^flB^adTi/a  fi 

BCf  <oam  ©fl*   JEcB  IXia  a  ill*   a^sXei  ob  varf-t  *bi1*  rri 

■-'■'*'•"'    ~'  .  >ce   ad*   Oit  XXi£  airy    la^iij.    ^..■ati^xdBJBB 

ei"xr*B;fc,  -d;t  no   bib  dolriw  anoint. .r 

BtuiRiZ  awo  -uto  ai  Btaio^tooat  ot  eldeteteiq,  Bd  blvom  tt 
j&i  otiBtaO  Bdi  ,ioA  mo  luo  ot  BBlsbBdoB  SB  ^aiooQ 

-  145  -  2-21-45 

Mr,  Jolliffe. 

tionsy  whatever  we  may  agree  upon  with  the  Dominion  they 
shall  be,  and  our  position  still  is  that  an  attempt 
ought  to  be  made  for  the  proper  representatives  of  this 
province  to  reach  an  agreement  with  the  J^ominion,  so  that 
at  this  Session  we  can  include  with  our  Bill  the  regula- 
tions which  would  be  operative  in  the  event  of  a  war-time 

MR.  ROBERT  L^DRIER  (Ottawa,  East):   I  would  like 
to  ask  the  hon.  gentleman  what  he  means  by  this  when  he 
amends  the  Section  to  say,  and  I  read,  "An  Act  to  provide 
franchise  by  Proxy".   How  can  he?  I  would  like  to  know 
the  process  by  which  the  war  prisoners  will  vote,  imless 
he  has  an  agreement  with  Geneva.  In  other  words,  what  I 
mean  to  say  is,  we  want  to  know  that  if  we  want  informa- 
tion from  our  own  prisoners,  —  as  well  as  those  who  are 
wounded  of  our  own  Canadian  forces,  —  we  have  to  deal 
through  Geneva,  and  how  can  the  hon.  member  tell  them  they 
can  have  a  vote,  unless  he  has  an  agreement  with  someone 
or  other?   I  hope  I  make  n^self  clear. 

MR.  BLACKWELLi   In  view  of  the  fact  I  heard  with 
the  greatest  difficulty  only  a  part  of  the  hon.  member's 
question,  I  wonder  if  the  hon.  member  from  Elgin  would 
explain  it  for  me. 

MH,  M.F.  HEPBiJRN  (Elginh  5!he  hon*  member  my 
colleague,  is  quite  capable  of  doing  that.  He  wants  to 
know  how  you  can  provide  for  voting  by  proxy,  so  far  as  the 
prisoners  are  concerned,  without  contacting  Geneva,  who 
are  in  contact  with  our  prisoners  of  war. 

MR.  BLACKWELL:  Mr.  Chairman,  all  I  can  say  to 
the  hon.  member  about  that  is  that  it  is  a  similar  diffi- 
culty to  that  of  our  own  Select  Committee  of  this  legislature 

vJ    JlCiJIQOq    TMO    La&    ,€»U 

4   dexuor. 
aw  9x1 

'Wi>    »'.  »¥fta0v    d. 

^^TW    Gitsi: 



-  146  -  2-21-45. 

Mr.  Jolliffa, 

The  Committee  functioning  for  the  House  of  Commons  at 
Ottawa,  eata^liahed  regulationa  that  wouM  enable,  insofar 
as  possible,  rotflfs  ^  be  taken  froa  prisoners  of  war. 
dulte  obviously,  they  cannot  vote  by  ballot*  ^uito 
obviously,  in  spite  of  the  best -drawn  regulations  and  the 
best  arrangements  that  may  be  made,  there  will  be  no  doubt 
be  many  breakdowns  in  the  effort  to  take  the  votes  of  all 
prisoners  of  war  by  proxy.   After  all,  the  hon.  member  for 
Brant  is  in  a  good  position  to  inform  the  House  of  the 
difficulties  of  the  proxy  system,  having  regard  to  the  great 
breakdown  he  experienced  in  implementing  it,  and  under  these 
circumstances  I  am  not  prepared  to  give  this  House  any  assur- 
ance that  the  effort  to  take  the  vote  of  all  prisoners  of 
war  by  proxy  will  be  a  perfect  thing,  but  we  do  feel,  and  I 
speak  as  Chairman  of  the  Committee,  that  that  is  an  important 
reeoxmaendation  to  this  House.   ?/hat  we  do  think  should  be 
down  in  the  event  of  a  wartime  election  in  the  provine  of 
Ontario  is  to  take  every  step  that  can  be  taken  to  ensure  that 
as  many  prisoners  of  war  do  cast  their  votes  in  the  election 
as  possible . 

MR.  ROBERT  LAUHIER  (Ottawa  iiast)  :   I  would  like  to 
ask. the  Attorney-General  what  move  he  has  made  to  find  out 
how  that  vote  can  be  taken.   Can  he  tell  the  House  what 
moves  he  has  made,  as  far  as  the  prisoners  of  war  are 

MR.  BLAGKWELL;  Would  the  hon.  member  wish  me  at 
this  point,  to  read  the  Dominion  Regulation,  which,  unfortun- 
ately, in  this  respect,  is  found  only  in  the  statute?    I 
would  be  (luite  happy  to  read  it  to  the  House. 

MR,   LAURIER:  I  am  not  asking  the  hon.  Attorney- 
General  (Mr.  Blackwell)  to  read  me  the  Act,  because  1  have 

8     RBPiri.'i1f»**     "t' 

i»  .■4'4  ♦  *  t>-ni»«  •*.      «>»<<!> 


'X^w  t=--  sieaeaf 

94  lI 


"   147  "  2-E1-45 

Mr.  Blackwell. 

seen  it,  but  I  want  him  to  tell  me  what  %9$(^tnce   these 
prisoners  of  war  will  have  in  some  way  or  other  —  what 
means  has  he  within  the  amendment  whereby  they  can  vote?  I 
am  not  concerned »  as  far  as  th6  federal  Act  is  concerned, 
because  I  know  for  some  months  the  Drew  Government  has  been 
falling  out  with  the  Dominion,  so  as  to  keep  their  little 
glory,  if  I  can  call  it  so,  but  I  am  concerned  with  — 
I  want  to  know  what  assurance  the  Attorney  General  can 
give  me  whereby  he  has  contacted  those  authorities  where 
he  can  assure  me  that  these  prisoners  of  war  will  vote. 
That  is  a  legal  question,  and  as  a  legal  man  he  should 
answer  without  any  sort  of  equivocation, 

MR.  BLACKWELL.S  Mj..  Chairman,  1  feel  that  in  view 
of  the  question  1  should  take  adeq^uate  time  — 

MR.  LAURIER:   Louder. 

m.,   BLACKWELL:  I  will  try  to  do  better  for  you 
than  you  did  for  me» 

MR.  LAURIER:   I  would  like  to  hear  you. 

MR.  BLACKWELL:  I  hope  you  do. 

MR.  LAURIER:  Wrongly,  perhaps,  but,  in  any  event  -- 

MR?  BLACKWELL:  ffhat  the  hon.  member,  is  concerned 
with,  }£r.   Chairman,  is  what  agencies,  I  presume,  do  the 
Governmen  t  of  the  province  of  Ontario  possess  to  make 
necessary  the  external  arrangements  to  take  the  prisoner 
of  war  vote,  and  the  answer  is  "None",  and  it  is  for  that 
reason  that  it  was  recognized  by  the  Select  Committee  of 
the  Legislature  that  it  was  perfectly  idle  for  this 
Legislature  to  piously  pass  an  Act  whereby  there  would 
be  a  direct  vote  for  the  Services,  including  the  prisoners 
of  war,  without  first  having  an  indication  from  the  Govern- 
ment at  Ottawa,  from  the  election  officials  at  Ottawa  and 

-  148  -  2-21-45 

Mir,  Laurier. 

those  responsible  for  the  three  Services,  at  Ottawa,  that 
we  would  hare  the  co-operation  of  the  Dominion  officials 
in  implementing  the  regulations  that  were  as  near  as 
might  be  to  the  Federal  Regulations •   I  feel  I  should 
review  that, and  perhaps  the  final  part  of  my  answer  should 
be  that  on  the  second  reading  of  the  Bill  I  gave  an  ex- 
planation of  the  trip  of  the  representatives  of  the  Com- 
mittee and  of  our  officials  to  Ottawa,  the  conference  with 
the  Government  there  and  with  the  officials,  and  I  tabled 
the  exchange  of  correspondence  by  which  it  was  indicated  that 
the  Federal  Government  and  the  Federal  officials  were 
prepared  to  co-operate  with  the  administration  of  the  provine 
of  Ontario  in  carrying  out  an  election  under  the  regulations 
as  nearly  the  same  as  the  Dominion  regulations  as  possible, 

I  think  that  probably  answers  it. 

MR.  JOI»LIFFS:  (Leader  of  the  Opposition):  I  thinkm  in 
view  of  the  question  which  was  put  to  the  hon.  Attorney- 
General,  that  the  House  should  be  more  fully  informed  about 
the  proposed  proxy  voting  for  the  priosoners  of  war. 

Now,  I  am  particularly  interested  that  the  House 
should  be  informed,  because  I  was  a  member  of  the  Select 
Committee  which  considered  this  problem,  and,  as  a  result 
otf  which  the  present  Bill  is  now  before  the  Hoiise.  We 
came,  I  think,  to  the  same  conclusion  as  the  Committee 
of  the  Dominion  House,  namely,  that  it  was  not  physically 
passible  to  obtain  a  direct  vote  from  the  prisoners  of 
war,  Geneva  or  no  Geneva,  and  therefore  what  we  have 
recoMmended  to  the  House  with  respect  to  the  prisoners  of 
wax  iti  that  they  should  vote  by  proxy  in  the  same  way  as 
the  prisoners  of  war  will  vote  in  the  next  Federal 
election,  hy   proxy. 


i^ei  Mooes  orfi  no  . 

slaioillo  -uro  to  j&cb  e« j  •  '  • 

w  Trf  •onaJbfloqaeTioo  io   osii. 

'• '•    .tnamfliovoO  I«Ttex 

9d;t  as  offiiSs   ..... 

.,  .....   ... .   ..    ,iroH 

n  i^-r-;  tk^- 

-  149  -         2-21-45 

Mr.  Blackwell 

MR.  LAURIBR:  I  do  not  know  how  it  can  be  done  by 
proxy .  ^ 

MH.  JOLLIFFB:  I  am  atoout  to  inform  the  House. 

MR.  LA.UHIER:  May  I  ask  the  hon.  gentleman,  How 
can  he  go  into  Germany,  where  we  have  prisoners  of  war^ 
and  ask  them  to  vote  by  proxy? 

MR.  JOLLiyFE:  I  will  be  pleased  to  answer  that. 

MR.  LAURIKR:  You  might  have  ideas. 

MR.  JOLLIFFE:  The  point  is  this,  if  the  hon. 
members  will  look  at  Schedule  B  to  the  amendments  to 
the  Dominion  Election  Act  passed  at  the  1944  Session  of 
the  Dominion  Pa.-liament,  he  will  find  the  prisoners  of 
war  are  to  vote  by  proxy  in  this  way:  their  next  of 
kin  will  be  presumed  to  be  their  proxy.  There  is  no 
question  of  communicating  with  the  prisoners  of  war 
through  Geneva  or  any  other  way.  That  was  found  to  be 
impossible  or  impracticable.  Under  Section  5  of 
Schedule  B  it  is  provided  in  the  Dominion  Regulations 
that  "Every  person  who  while  on  service  or  duty  relating 
to  the  present  war  became  a  prisoner  of  war  as  herein 
defined,  shall  be  entitled  to  vote  toy  proxy  at  a  General 
Election,  such  proxy  being  his  next-of-kin,  who  ia 
officially  recorded  as  such  at  Headquarters. •• 

MR.  LAURIBR:  May  I  interrupt?  I  suppose  when  you 
vote  the  hon.  member  for  York, East,  will  be  your  proxy. 

MR.  JOLLIFFS:   It  so  happens  that  the  proper 
authoritiesf  of  the  three  services  have  recorded  the  next-of- 
kin  of  each  prisoner  of  war,  or  they  are  supposed  to  have 
recorded  them,  and  the  effect  of  Section  5  is  that  "such  ' 
proxy  shall  be  his  next-of-kin,  who  is  officially  recorded 
as  such  at  Headquarters,  and  such  vote  shall  be  cast  in 

•ya    &aoL>   &c 

c-«i-  rcA--!  ,: 


.eaticE  >^('  iiv 


.^«£t^    %©W 


^iTo«f*   rt 

dVBd  ftw 

.  V 

iBiBisO  I  .J  exl  rifio 

:lianRT7AJ   .HH 



,  f>enll9fc 


■«eH   tir 

laqc  .  ,    ... 

J&8lMoo»i  xiiAioilio  el  oriw 
al  i9B0  ed  iXsde  ed^ov  dov 

-W    ,^8B1,  3C!iEefll    .UOll    9iii    &tov 

■7Ba  <; 
91B  x^dS  10   ,ii8W  to  aeflOfe liq  ilofle  to  nIX 

-   150  -  2-21-45 

iSr,  I<atirler. 

the  polling  diTlsion  In  which  such  nezt-of-lcln  Is  a 
giiAllfied  elector."   So  that  the  schezne  of  the  thing  la 
the  chief  electoral  officer  will  obtain  from  Headguartera 
a  list  of  the  nezt-of-Mn  of  all  prisoners  of  war,  and. 
will  then  advise  the  local  returning  officer  of  the  names 
of  those  next-of-kin;  if  they  are  qualified  electors 
they  will  receive  a  certificate  enabling  them  to  vote 
by  proxy  for  the  prisoners  of  war.  That  is  the  scheme 
of  the  Dominion  Regulations,  and  the  Attorney*(}eneral»s 
proposed  amendments  provide  that  our  regulations  are 
to  be  as  closely  as  may  be  the  same  as  the  Dominion 
Regulations,  and  we  are  bound  to  rely,  for  the  moment, 
on  the  general  aseuranoe  of  the  Dominion  authorities 
that  they  will  oo-operate  in  rec^uiring  their  servants 
to  extend  to  us  the  same  faeilitles  as  they  muat  extenA 
to  the  Chief  Electoral  Officer  under  the  Federal 

I  think  it  is  Important  the  House  should  know 
that  because  of  the  difficulties  involved,  and  because 
we  cannot  prooeed  through  Geneva,  as  the  hon.  member 
suggested,  it  was  concluded  by  both  the  Dominion  end 
Ontario  Committees  that  it  would  be  necessary  for  a  proxy 
Tott  to  be  case  by  the  next  of  kin  of  the  prisoners  of 

UR.  LAURISRt  Mr.  Chairman,  I  would  like  the 
Leader  to  explain  his  situation,  because  I  feel  he  should 
be  the  Attorney-General  in  Mr,  Drew's  Government,  and  have 
the  position  Mr,  Blackwell  has  at  the  psesent  moment. 

EON.  LBSLIE  M.  FROST  (Provincial  Treasurer):  This 
was  a  non-partisan  Committee,  and  the  hon.  member  sitting 
a^  his  right  for  South  Grey,  and  the  member  behind  him 

&  ai  flll-lc  dolriw  al  noialvJtft  solIIo«i  ed* 

Bl  -^Itlt  »d^  Jx)  emeiloa  »Jit  iMdi  06       ".7o;foeIe  tf^ltllaai 

ataa   .^i;i.*<a»H  mr -•*   ,. ',»*^.  r  r  ^^^  taoitlo  XaioJoelo  leldo  sdjf 

J!«i«  4 YAW  lo  siftcoai-  '  to  cl^-lo-^xexi  ad^  to  tall  a 

aaau  st  reocl   erit  ealTJba  cad*  II  Iw 

';;la  Jb^y  -  ^M-!to-;Jx8fl  •aodi'   ' 

-a*ov  a9ittti90   a  aVlaoai  IXlw  ■^eri.i 

•fflM^c   9  aTeaoaltT   edit  lol  ifioTiq  yd 

e;  tq  aitnaa&nema  J^aaoqonq 

lou  9  doaaixraaa  laiacaa  BAi  ao 

u^r-na-vnaa  nladi  "^i  xxl   ai-aieq.  iXlw  yad*  *adt 

Asatfxa  tm'"  "•  ioal  anaa  adi  bjv  o^  Xxaatxa  o# 

Xa  aaltlcO  Xaico^ToaXI  taldO  %At 

.rro  ■ 
woajC  Mi^oda  t>aiK)l{  ad;t^£a^TO(ifflJt  al  ^i.  a^^axw   .1 
aajvaaa^^  imh  (.*^or  ^alltlA  •<!#  to  atffaoatf  i%tLi 

taeUaiaa  .  eri^  aa  ^avafiaC  risxroidt  *ffa«o«r<;  .tomiaft^aw 

Ma  floXniasof;   ad*    -'•-•■'   ■'    ^-  jX^ajses^i/e 

'iaaaosa  ao  l>Xi/ow  t  aaa^ifiauBOO  oIt^ 

to  nil  to  *x-  aaao  atf  0*  a;fo? 

ait#  ai  .aaaniadG  .iM     :H1IHUAJ  .501 

Mxfoda  ad  Xaat  I  aeiraodd  .rrcitajr^ia  eld  nlaXqxa  o^  taSsfil 
aa»d  n,.-i----?c*r-  b*w©ic  ^im  at  iBiaa^H^xsarottA  sas  sc 


.j'jaaiBQa  ^aaaai^t  ad#  ^a  aad  XXawi&aXfi  .lif  aottlaoti  ed^ 
aXdf     -A  1191  fTBStn'f  Xalonivo-rtE)   fSOiTf  ,M  aUBai  .l©H 

acX?"'"'-        -asfli  .iion  edi    xias   ,os«jxiacaoD  aaalJasq.'-nofl  £i   sbb 
^id  iuxidacf  ^ecfAdja  ad^  Jbaa  ^-z^ixi  diuoZ  7ot  id^l 

-  151  -  2-21-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe. 

for  Prescott,  were  on  that  Committee,  and  the  finding  of 
the  Committee  was  unanimous »  and  it  has  been  dealt  with* 
ffe  have  the  unanimous  opinion  of  the  non-partisan 
Committee,  and  you  have  a  gentleman  sitting  right  beside 
you  who  agreed  to  the  report. 

MR.  ULURIER:  I  want  to  take  objection  to  the  hon. 
member,  who  is  a  friend  of  mine.  I  do  appreciate  that 
the  report  was  made,  but  surely  in  any  report »  as  you  will 
appreciate,  there  are  things  upon  which  at  least  a  man  can 
express  his  own  opinion.  Of  course,  1  am  not  bound  to 
the  Government  at  any  time,  and  I  might  say  in  this  House 
that  so  long  as  I  am  a  member,  I  will  have  at  least  the 
right  to  express  in  this  House  my  opinion  at  any  time, 
whether  it  pleases  you,  or  not. 

MR.  JOLLIPFE:  Certainly. 

THE  CHAIRMAN;  '  Shall  Section  E,  as  amended  form 
part  of  the  Bill? 

Motion  agreed  to. 

EOli*   USLIE  is;,  BLACKWJELL  (Attorney-Oenerali ;  Mr. 

Chairman,  on  the  second  reading  of  the  Bill  I  indicated  « 

new  Section  3  would  be  moved  in  Committee,  and  I  now  move 

a  ntw  Section  3  to  the  Bill,  as  follows;  the  words  are, 

«nd  I  will  read  slowly  for  the  convenience  of  those  who 

wleh  to  note  them,  - 

"Notwithstanding  any  other  provisions  of 
this  Act,  the  regulations  made  hereunder  shall, 
except  in  the  case  of  prisoners  of  war,  provide 
for  depositing  the  voting  paper  of  an  active 
service  voter  in  a  ballot  boot  in  the  presence  of 
such  active  service  voter." 

If  I  may  say,  with  reference  to  that  amendment, 

I  indicated  that  that  was  the  sole  instance  where  it  was 

proposed  that  there  should  be  a  departure  from  the  ■ 

ao  viav;  ^iiooaoTfl  tot 

.alfranrr  aaw  Qeiitmian^  srf? 

ftioq,9i   9Ai   oi   &S9is«  oriw  aox 
*    '"ew    I       ;iiAxi£UA^.v    .HM 
,enJtir  eJtil  s  al   oiiw  , t -^(iiT.Hni 

iqo  nwo  aid  ea«Tqxo 

i;f  YCts   *8   JcanotovoP  sdt 

u  9&D0E  alAf  at  BB 
.  aeait 

a'r  ■^mu»  a»  ,&  GcitouQ  list  I9  SHS 

Tifia  «^rt;r   to   iTsq 

,Qi»  aj&VQw  Ml  0^  5  ooliroaB  w«£i  g 

0^  maedt  to  •«e«ljitvase«  9d;t  10)  tXwoXi  i:>«i^rr  iilm  1  bzp 

Ic  v:jaa  srf.ii>c«*edJlw#oK" 

,Ia«i  i^.u   vbam.  aaolt&liJ^di  edi   ^iok  axaJ 

dJ^iT'  to  sieaoali^  to  aaao  edi  al  iqaoze 

e  to  laq^aq  so-i^^^o^  ^^^  aaX^lsoqaX)  lot 

"  ni  xo4  tcllBd  B  at  reiOT  eaivnee 

*.idicv  eolvrres;   svltos?  lioxra 

,TnecuuuaaL»   .tsdj   lj    socaidtei   ri^xw   ,icb3  \.£j~   .    "•" 

aav  tl  anaxiw  aonfi^aixi  sloa  Bdi  aaw  ^adif  \fad;^  i)0^aol£ci  I 

odi  mc'il   siir:tttBqeX>  s  ecf  bLuoda.  siori^   tadi   J&aBocoTq 

-  152  -  £-21-45 

principles  of  the  Federal  Regulations.  That  also,  for 
the  information  of  the  House,  was  unanimously  reconmended 
by  the  Select  Committee. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Shall  the  new  Section  3  form  part 
of  the  Bill? 

MR.  JOLLIFFE:  (Leader  of  the  Opposition!:  Mr. 
Chairman,  I,  of  coarse,  favour  what  is  proposed.  I  am, 
however,  wondering  if  it  would  not  only  be  fair  to  the 
House  for  the  hon.  Attorney-General,  or  possibly  the  hon. 
Provincial  Treasurer  (Mr.  Frost),  or  perhaps  the  hon. 
member  for  Prescott  (Mr.  Belanger),  who  was  a  member  of 
the  Committee,  to  explain  Just  wherein  the  difference  was. 
I  do  not  believe  that  is  clearly  understood  by  those  who 
are  not  familiar  with  the  regulations. 

MR.  BLACKWELL:  Mr,  Chair,  the  point  in  question 
la  really  a  simple  one,  but  it  touches  that  fundamental 
principle  of  the  franchise,  namely,  the  secrecy  of  the 
ballot.  In  following  that  comment,  I  by  no  means  wish  to 
suggest  that  under  the  Federal  Regulations,  the  secrecy  of 
the  ballot  would  necessarily  be  infringed,  or  that  there 
Is  any  intent  to  infringe  upon  it.  But  here  is  the 
praetioe;  the  soldier,  under  those  regulations,  voting  with 
his  unit,  say,  in  France,  completes  an  affidavit  on  the 
back  of  an  envelope,  and  his  ballot  goes  in  that  envelope, 
and  from  that  moment  on,  ahether  it  happens  or  whether  it 
does  not  happen,  he  will  be  assured  that  there  is  his  vote 
inside,  and  there  is  his  name  outside,  and  it  will  be  a 
simple  matter  for  anyone  who  desires  to  do  so,  to  find  out 
or  determine  how  he  has  voted.  We  suggest  a  change  under 
our  proposed  regulations,  and  that  is  that  the  soldier  will 
be  sworn  by  affidavit,  by  which  he  will  indicate  the 

.tic  9di  lo  leiaeJ)    iSTJL 

J.    ix  ^cziohaow  ,i8v»woa 
•  aofi  90  atftue  id  ddc" 

reieriw  ;t8ift 

obtw  ^Xi«»Io   Bi   ifujiJt  »ri»il9^  ion  d5    * 
.acoJtitaXi/s*^   »;  -'  -m:.:.!.^^ 

Xft^HMUiAairt  Isff^  utidvaoi   il   tuti   .exro  air 
•di  lo  T09i9»«  «dJ'   ,Y^8M8i3   ^•Bldoaatj. 

.  a»#tX<lffioo    ,1 
,©qoieva»  ^adl  ixX  8909  ioIX«d  aid  x  sTce  ca 

3i3»q[cfBr'    ft   TBtitsfiB   .  jffloa  j-jJd*  r. 

iiSBxi  Bid   ai   sieri: 
iuo   halt  Qt    ,r  asilBfti  odw  srrcvxie  tcl   is^tBffl  alrrmia 

illw  T[»iJ&xofc  i;  ttBdt  Ms  ^anolifaXxfsei  J&aaoc 

ei(*   niuolJial  IXXw  ©d  dsXdw  y;<<   ^ttvablltn  vd  niowa   ad 

153  «  2-21-46 

Mr,  Jolllffe 

electoral  diatriet  in  Ontario  in  which  he  is  entitled  to 
vote,  and  then  he  will  be  permitted  to  drop  his  ballot 
in  the  ballot  box,  in  accordance  with  the  ordinary  practloe 
to  which  he  is  accustomed* 

MR.  ROBSKT   lAUHlSJR  (Ottawa,  East);  May  I  say 
you  hare  your  practice  with  the  elector  for  that  district, 
in  which  he  is  entitled  to  vote,  if  he  is  a  soldier.  It 
does  not  matter  if  he  is  a  soldier  or  a  voter. 

MR.  BULCKWSLL:  Hay  I  ask  the  hon.member  to  start 
over?  From  here  I  cannot  hear  what  he  is  asking. 

MR.  LiURISB:  I  thought  ay  voiee  was  loud  enough 
to  reach  everywhere. 

MR.  JOLLIFFE:  None  of  us  can  hear. 

MR.  LAITRIL'R:   >7e  are  so  far  away,  I  suppose  I  auBt 
blaioe  the  Speaker  or  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  if  the  acoustlos 
of  this  House  are  not  as  good  aa  they  should  be.  The  hon. 
Prime  Minister  has  Ideas  of  oodernlslng  everything.  I  an. 
aurprlsed  he  has  not  modernised  thla  Eouie  bo  we  oan  hear. 

Yoa  atld  a  aoldler  who  «ill  be  the  age  of  twenty 
or  twenty-one,  and  again  who  would  be  a  oonitituent  of  t 
oertftln  oonBtltuency,  might  vote  In  that  conitltuenoy  in 
whloh  he  haa  t  right  to  vote.   Is  that  right?  By  what 
prooeii  are  you  taking  your  vote  to  the  Arnwd  Force ■ 7 

MR.  BULCKW2LL:  I  can  answer  that. 
MR.  ULURIEH:  I  cannot  find  out  anything  from  you, 
because  you  are  so  haay.  Ve  cannot  find  out.  I  would 
like  to  have  these  clouds  off  your  mind.  May  I  ask  for 
a  clearer  ozpression? 

MR.  BLACKWELL;  Mr.  Chaizman,  I  will  repeat,  the 
soldier  eligibility  is  not  bases  — 

MR.  UlURISBs  Louder,  please » 

ell  II  iol,     'v^r 

o*   b»liltaB  ai   ©ri  iloirfw  Di  olaa;t.  liBtb  iBtoioela 

»baaotajJOtB  bI  Bd  doldm  ot 

\0B   I   v:«M     ;i^8fla   .«wa#«))   fiSIHUAi  T«SHOfl   ,flM 

finliiuib  iBdi   rot  tp^o»X«  mII^  xi^Jmr  9ol^o«tq  tvox  evsxl  00^ 

^I     .lelJbXoB  «  ai  tri  li   ,o^ot  ol  Aslilint  sX  ed  doldn  nl 

,Tte#oY  A  no  flblcB  a  ai  P''  *»  ^  -^^tJaai  .*"-  '"^•'^^' 

^^a^a  o^  nadaan.cod  ad^  ^aa  I  t«V     sJu^n^OAJS  .SU 

•  saliaa  ai  aii  ;raifw  vaad  ^ocaao  I  eie  uvc 

flBxroaa  AiroX  aav  aoioT  t*  id^^dt  I     :fiSIflUX 

.  aiadincaaYa  -  J 

.'is:.\  cao  air  to  afloM     tJIffUJOi   .HM 
turn  I  aaoqtqi/a  'I   «Y<wa  lal  oa  ana  a'w       ...»^>i;>^_   .>af 
ael^airooa  ad^  li  nsifainiM  aoili^  .ctod  adi  10  'Xdla»(i8  adif   a«aaX<f 
.AOri  fdT     .fd  ^ii/oda  xadi  aa  hoo^  aa  ^oo  a^a  aasroS  sld^  lo 
«a  £  ^T^lAi'"'^^^*'  'sitialataJbom  lo  aaabt  aad  taialatu  aalri 
•lAtdl  BMO  •«  OB  •a«(A  aid;!  Aaaixrea^oa  ^o«  aad  ad  baalt^itjoa 
Xiam9  to  aia  ^Ai  ad  iJLim  oiv  ttlMoa  a  Maa  floT 
a  to  >aMr#i^iaoa  a  ad  i^jrow  oiv  iiiasa  baa  ,a«o«x^Q*vtf  '^^ 
ai  XMatttttaaoa  iadi  ai  atov  ^dBia  ^x^aattiUaaoo  aXBf%»a 
tattK  t8    r^^tii  iadi  aX       .atov  o;r  i^^i'x  a  aad  ad  daidv 
fa*o«o^  AmkA  axU  0^  a^'^v  '^fnat  j^ldai  srox  ara  aaa^ciq, 
.tadt  xamama  oao  I     idlWKMOJLSA  .HM 
,00%  flioTl  i^id^i[ixa  ^00  jtoil  ionaao  1     inKlSBOJU  .^M. 
-  -*.   .  '"'■t  tozaao  af     .Y^-^d  ^'   --^^-ra  jjo^  aairaoatf 

.ii£ilA  isjox  llo  ai«iroXa  aaaii^  ovad  ol  «i£j:i 

fxxoXsaa'iqxo  i:enaaX«  a 
adi   (iaaqai    '      '  I   .noiiniadO  ,^     ^JJawXC^a  .Ste 

-*  aaaad  ioa  at  x^llldlT^lla  lelbloa 
«aaaeXq:  ,%ahaoJ     iiZ^lSOSXl  »m 

"  154  »  2-21-45 


MR.  BLACOBLL:   I  see  no  reason  why  the  hon.  member 
should  not  labour  under  the  same  difficulty  I  have, 

1  made  no  such  statement  that  a  soldier  had  to  be 
tw«nty-oi^  years  of  age.  The  fact  is,  his  eligibility  to 
Tote  will  be  deterMined  by  the  constituency  in  which  he 
was  domiciled  in  Ontario  at  the  time  he  became  a  member 
of  the  active  services. 

MR.LiURIER:  Domiciled  in  Ontario?   Domiciled 
in  his  own  residence,  in  which  he  lived. 

MR.  BLACKWELL:  Do  not  argue  about  my  answer.  Let 
said   complete  it. 

MR,  LAURIER:  is.'ven  if  you  complete  it,  I  won't 

MR.  BIACKWELL:  Then,  in  a  moment  we  may  have 
another  episode. 

MR.  LAURIER;  You  will  have  many. 

MR.  BLACKWELL:  I  hope  that  clears  up  the  (question 
of  the  eligibility.  A»   far  es  the  age  ia  concerned,  there  is 
no  age  qualification  for  the  Active  Service  voter.  He 
votes  at  any  age  at  which  he  becomes  a  mexaber  of  the  Active 

The  initial  question  was  directed  to  the  single 
question,  the  method  under  the  Doxoinion  Regulations  and 
under  these  Regulations.  Under  the  Dominion  --viegulationa 
the  voter  takes  his  affidavit  on  the  envelope,  and  the 
ballot  goes  in  the  envelope.   Under  these  Regulations 
the  voter  ta)ces  a  separate  ballot,  and  the  ballot  goes 
in  the  box. 

THii;  CHAIRMAN:  Shall  the  new  Section  form  part  of 
the  Bill. 

Motion  agreed  to. 

0<1  o;^    h&A  istliiJ.  utaj   ^rcame^Bia  xloxrs  oa  ebBm  I 

7e4a0£i  «  aaar  eHJ^   ;!i^  oliBlr  "    '  •  ??r' 

•  seoiviaa  eTld^oB  ad^  to 

.  s/sxidiDXaai  n«o   ^: 
tod   .levaoB  tAi  ^xfod«  on  oa     :JJlO0AJa   .iM 

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al     *T«^ov  aoZTtaS  avi#oA  ajl^  tol  lairf  ftga  oa 

sTl^foA  a:;       w  ladaMft  a  aafloaatf  ad  dalxiv  t»  03a  T^a  ta  aa^oT 


Qi^tB  »ri:  aw  £toX.t8a0p  iMUlal  adT 

^s  i»r  -  ' !  ^  -r"    ,-1   laxjaif  AodJaa  ad*   .floiJaatrp 

BcotitUii,  '^di  idi«iU      .aflol-  -daaili"  iei>far 

a4^  ^a   .a<xoXavc8   aiil  ao  UrMhl'i'tB  sid  ealal  *ta;tov  &i'- 

eoolitfilxrsefi  aaadit   leJ^nU      .aqoXavna  edi  ai   aaog  #oXXad 

aaos  ^olXatf  9iii  baB  ^tolle<i  a^aiaqaa  a  Ba:(a^  traito?  eii:f 

.XXia   ads 
,oi  ^asTss  xioi#oM 

-  155  -  2-21-45 

ikir.  Blackwell. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:   Shall  3ection  4,  formerly  Section  3, 
form  part  of  the  Bill? 

Section  4  carried. 

TH£  GHAIBMAII:  Shall  Section  5,  formerly  Section  4 
form  part  of  the  Bill? 

Section  5  carried. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:  Shall  Section  6»  formerly 'Section  5, 
form  part  of  the  Bill? 

Section  6  carried, 

THE  CHAIiJMAI^:  Shall  Section  7,  formerly  Section  6 
form  part  of  the  Bill? 

Section  7  carried. 

TEE   CHAiajdAN:  Shall  Section  8,  formerly  Section  7, 
form  part  of  the  Bill? 

Section  8  Mirried. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:   Shall  the  Bill  be  reported? 

MR.  BELANGiiJR:  Mr.  Chairman,  in  view  of  the  many 
changes  which  have  been  suggested,  and  some  of  them  adopted 
by  this  House,  when  they  were  not  in  the  hands  of  the  hon» 
members,  and  ;»hen  the  hon.  members  could  not  give  them 
their  proper  consideration  before  being  asked  to  vote, 
do  I  understand  that  the  Bill  will  be  printed  before  third 
reading y  with  the  amendments  and  schedules,  and 
be  distributed  to  hon.  members,  and  that  there  will  be  a 
poailblllty  for  an. hon.  member  to  move,  if  he  thinks  it  is 
important  enoijgh,  to  have  it  brought  back  before  the 
Committee  of  the  whole  House? 

HSR,   BLACKWELi.:  Mr»  Chairman,  I  believe  I  have  al- 
ready given  the  assxirance  that  the  Bill  will  be  properly 
printed  before  it  is  called  for  third  reading,  and  the  Bill 
is,  at  third  reading,  in  the  hands  of  the  House. 

,S  acliOi 

arts      rVlAMFi 

15  sr.; 

■  ;:• ;  i 

'iix^a  any  lo  i^aq  iirrol 
*JbalTi80  S  noiJoeS 

•  JbelirxBO  r} 
vXiao'  jae  IlariB 

•joae  YX^«wi*w>i  «fl  aol#o©8  lisdS     :ffAliiaiAi: 

isq  miol 

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1«<I    ffilot 

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0  aci   IXiir  e 

al    Ji    s: 

O/i?     310I»C    XOS.C 

arit   IXsrfe 



Q'xadi&aia  .xioa 

100   1^ 


-ie    f^t-ifl   1   aTsiisd   I    .nemtlBtlTi   .'ft.'  -f   ,f?'/ 

s;t   £«B   ,sfllx)B©i  JbililJ  lot  JbalXso  bL  ii   eiolaif  J^^iiiTg 
.  eaxxoH   arft  to   afiaarf   arft   nl    .-aniJjsaT  f': 

-  156  -  2-21-45 

MR.  GRUMMETTr  I  wonder  if  we  could  have  some 
assurance  by  the  hon.  Attorney-General  Juat  what  protection 
a  voter  would  have  if  he  happened  to  inadvertently  write 
something  on  the  ballot  beside  the  name  of  the  candidate? 
As  you  know,  these  ballots  will  have  a  blank  line,  where 
the  voter  will  insert  the  name  of  the  candidate  for  whom 
he  votes.  Now,  since  they  are  allowed  to  write  the  name 
on  the  ballot,  I  am  afraid  that  you  will  see  some  voters 
inserting  other  particulars,  such  as  the  political  desig- 
nation of  the  candidates. 

I  am  rather  concerned  to  think  that  perhaps  quite 
a  number  of  voters  might  lose  their  votes  if  the  deputy 
returning  officers  decided  those  votes  were  spoiled.  Have 
we  any  protection  for  voters  under  these  circumstances? 

I  know,  in  the  regular  way,  we  have  to  be  very 
strict  in  having  voters  put  on  the  ballot  nothing  other 
than  ^ust  the  cross,  and  if  they  do,  we  must,  of  course, 
rule  it  out,  but  in  this  case  I  think  we  should  allow  some 
latitude.  I  was  wondering  if  the  hon.  Attorney-General 
could  explain  ^ust  how  we  could  do  that.   I  do  not  believe 
that  all  the  instructions  in  the  world  which  are  sent  to 
the  voters  would  cure  that  tendency  of  some  voters  to  put 
something  else  besides  the  name  only  of  the  candidate. 

Could  the  hon.  Attorney-General  explain  how  we 
could  be  assured  that  voters  would  not  have  their  ballots 
thrown  out  for  this  reason? 

MR.  BLACKWELL:  Mr.  Chairman,  as  a  matter  of 
satisfying  the  House  on  that  q.uestion,  may  I  say  that  we 
have  now  through  comioittee  a  bill  that  incorporates,  by 
reference.  Dominion  regulations  "A"  and  "B"  into  our  Act, 
except  as  they  may  be  modified  in  the  limited  termis  of  the 

To  some  hon.  members  of  the  House  that  may  seem 
like  a  very  small  matter  to  make  these  modifications 


fl-.  1  ^siiw  7o  rf_    r.  -vacn:o;t;tA  ,0011  edt  '%d  aoxxaTcraaa 

uso   &ac   10   saHU  9x1^  8J&i8o<^  Goliad   t 
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fii&ioy  smoa  eaa  XXlw  do'z  i»Ai  ttsilB  ma  I   .loXlBd   eri*  no 

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.sd^BiilluiBo  0x1*  lo  coxJfia 
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t^iyqet  eriJ  \l  sBtov  T?'.fC,t    *a.-»r   itris-to  aiei^ov  ^t'^   -^^"^    _    .. 

©V  Xloqa  ei©w  s  uT  X>dX)loeX)  aiaolllo  ^laiat&r 

Taaoas^ami/oii©  eaadj  lettcv  arraio'v  ttol  aolloa^oiq  ^cb  aw 

10  r. 
,  ear 
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ev  wod  *axr^  nlslqxe  M0OO 
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8dj   xo  &m'xei  bBilmli   edi  al  MelllliosL  ed  xaa  x^di  b£ 

,i.t   -a^Rurn  ^rtj   lo  aiedmeci  .nod  emoa  oT 
acoxjsaiixjSGoi  seed*  aotsai  o*  id^j-am  XXama  ijiav  a  eilX 

•■  157   -  2-21-45 


To  some  hon»  members  of  the  house  that  may  seem 
like  a  very  small  matter  to  malce  these  modifications » 
but  with  the  responsibility  that  I  feel  I  bear  in  the 
matter  as  Attorney-Gfeneral,  I  can  assure  the  House  that  it 
is  a  Job  that  needs  to  be  done  with  the  greatest  oare  and 

On  the  second  reading  of  the  bill  1  indicated  that 
when  the  regulations  were  accepted  finally,  I  would  much 
prefer  to  have  the  benefit  of  the  assistance  of  the  Blections 
Committee  as  it  was  constituted  by  the  previous  session  of 
this  Legislature. 

In  due  course,  for  this  purpose  only,  I  will  be 
moving  the  reoonatltutlon  of  that  aommlttee,  and  I  believe 
It  will  be  much  mire  beneficial  to  attempt  to  settle  the 
details  which  the  hon.  member  mentions  by  committee,  than 
to  endeavour  to  do  it  in  the  House. 

TEE  CHAIRMAN:  Shall  the  bill  be  reported? 

Bill  reported. 

HON.  CSORSE  A^ISEUSW  (Prime  Minister):  I  move  the 
oommlttee  rise  and  report  certain  bills* 

Motion  agreed  to. 

MR.  SF£AKi£R  reeumed  the  chair. 

MR.  REYNOLDS.  The  Committee  of  the  Whole  House » 
begs  leiave  to  report  a  certain  Bill  with  certain  amendments. 
I  move  tha  adoption  of  the  report. 

Motion  agreed  to. 

HON.  GEORGE  A  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Third  Order. 

CLERK  OP  THE  HOUSE:  Third  Order:  second  reading 
of  Bill  No.  E6,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Mental  Hospitals  Act," 
Mr.  Vivian. 

HON.  R.P.  VIVIAN  (Minister  of  Health):  Mr,  Speaker, 

«   Vdl  - 

•rfc»  at  iBtd  I  IdBi  I  itdi  xtlil(iieao(iBBi  edf  d&i^  itrd 
i)as  eiflo  JB»^»ert8  »ril  ri;riw  eflo£  Ad  o^  aJb»aa  ;fjBxl*  tfot   b  ai 

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.a^aaffijtoaoa  aia^iaa  d*iw  Xlia  aia^fiao  a  *ioqa^  ot  : 

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^itaai  i)flooeB   :i»i)iO  jfrildT     :a'=^'"'^  2HT   '^-^   ^i.i*ij 
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.aatrlV  ,iM 

w  158  -  2-21-45 

Mr,  Vivian. 

in  rising  to  move  the  second  reading  of  the  Bill  ITo»26, 
"An  Act  to  amend  the  Mental  Hospitals  Act,"  I  would  like 
to  point  out  to  the  hon.  members  of  the  House  that  the 
principle  involved  in  this  amendment  ia  simply  for  the 
clarification  and  improvement  in  the  procedure  of  appre- 
hending an  escaped  patient,  where  such  might  occur* 

At  the  present  time  the  method  of  so  doing  is  not 
quite  to  the  satisfaction  of  those  who  are  concerned  in 
the  administration  and  the  care  of  these  patients.  Where 
a  patient  might  escape  from  a  mental  institution,  the 
police  officers  who  may  be  called  upon  to  aid  in  apprehend- 
ing this  patient,  are  loath  to  accept  the  verbal  order  or 
request  of  the  superintendent  of  that  hospital^  who  is 
charged  with  the  responsibility  for  the  patient,  and  it  is 
felt  that  this  amandment,  which  is  before  you,  would  make 
it  possible  to  undertake  thi,s  procedure,  with  a  warrant  — 
or  without,  as  the  case  may  be  •"-  and  will  improve  this 
method  considerably. 

For  these  reasons,  I  move  the  second  reading  of 
this  Bill  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Mental  Hospitals  Aot," 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  second  time, 

EON.  GIOBGE  A  BREWt  (Prime  Minister):  Order  No.4. 

GLSBK  OF  THE  HOUSE:  The  fourth  order:  second 
reading  of  Bill  No. 27,  "An  Aot  to  amend  the  Children's 
Protection  Act,"  Mr.  Yivian. 

HON.  R.P.  VIVlAl^  (Minister  of  Health)  Mr.  Speaker, 
Bill  NooE7,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Children's  Protection 
Act,"  is  brought  forward  as  an  amendment  to  the  present  Act 
for  this  purpose:  at  this  time  we  have  a  peculiar  situation 
developing  whereby  neglected  children,  that  is,  children 
of  parents  who  are  falling  to  assume  their  full  responsibili* 

-  159  «  2-21-45 

Mr.  Vivian 

ties,  are  frequently  sent  to  our  schools  with  contagious 
and  coxomuni cable  diseases,  frequently  of  the  skin.  These 
children  constitute  a  hazard,  and  are  a  menace  to  the 
health  of  the  other  children  in  the  class. 

They  are  excluded  from  the  school  because  of  this 
condition,  and  sent  home. 

The  parents  fail  to  take  the  proper  steps  to  clear 
up  these  conditions  in  these  children,  usual  Impetigo.  The 
child  is  not  returned  to  school;  the  truancy  officer  is 
sent  to  find  it;  the  condition  is  still  present.    The 
truancy  officer  promptly  takes  the  child  back  to  school,  and 
it  is  promptly  excluded  from  class  again  and  sent  home. 

This  amendment  will  make  it  possible  for  a  child  to 
be  given  competent  medical  attention  to  clear  up  the 
unhealthy  condition. 

For  these  reasons,  I  move  second  reading  of  this 
Bill,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Children's  Protection  Act." 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  second  time. 

EON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister!:  Order  No. 5, 

CLEKK  OF  THE  HOIBE:  Fifth  order;  second  reading 
of  Bill  No. £8,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Territorial  Division 
Act,"  Mr.  Thompson. 

HON.  WESLEY  G.  THOMPSON)Minister  of  Lands  and 
Forests):  Mr.  Speaker,  in  moving  the  second  reading  of  Bill 
No. 28,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Territorial  Division  Act"  it  is 
to  correct  an  oversight  or  an  error. 

Back  in  1899  the  township  of  "Coffin"  and  "Coffin 
Addition"were  changed  to  "Aberdeen"  and  in  making  that 
change,  "Aberdeen  Addition"  was  overlooked,  and  this  is 
to  remedy  that  error, 

I  move  second  reading  of  Bill  No. 28, "An  Act  to 
amend  the  Territorial  Division  Act." 

Motion  Qflpsiad  tn  DTtrl  hi,  1 1  raftoL  tho  oooond  time  t 

noii.OEOnOB  Ai  DIIEW  (ffpinw  iiiia&Dtep )  >  .  Ordor  Noi6. 

qLURK  OF  THL  IIOgQliii — Dig%h  ordei-,  jaeo.jd 


-  160  «  •     2-21-45 

Wc,   Thompson. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  second  time. 

HON.  GEORGE  A. DREW  (Prime  Minister);   Order  NOoe, 

CLERK  OP  THE  HOUSE:  Sixth  order;  second  reading 
of  Bill  No. 29,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Siarreys  Act,"  Mr. 

HON.  .VESLSY  G.  THOMPSON  (Minister  of  Lands  and 
Forests):  Mr.  Speaker,  in  moving  the  second  reading  of 
Bill  No. 29,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Surveys  Act, "I  might  explain 
that  the  p\irpose  of  this  bill  is  to  amend  a  technicality 
in  townships  where  no  lot  lines  have  been  run. 

There  were  two  systems  of  running  the  side  lines  of 
lots  in  Ontario,  first,  in  some  townships  side  lines  were 
run  according  to  astronomi-cal  bearings.   Secondly >  in  others, 
the  side  lines  were  run  parellel  to  the  original  side  lines 
of  the  township,  called  a  "governing  linoo" 

It  is  more  economical  in.  some  places  to  run  the  lines 
according  to  astronomical  bearings  rather  than  to  run  them 
paa?all6l  to  the  governing  line. 

;     In  1897  an  Act  was  passed  to  do  this  in  certain  cases. 
The  present  Act  is  to  provide  this  procedure  in  eight  town- 
ships in  RenfrewCounty^  namely,  Potawawa,  McKay,  Buchanan, 
iVylie ,  Rolphg  Head,  Itoria  and  Clara. 

I  move  second  reading  of  Bill  Noc.29,  "An  Act  to  Amend 
the  Surveys  Act." 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  second  time. 

MR.  THOMAS  P.  MURRAY  (Renfrew  South):   I  would  like 
to  aak  the  hon.  Minister  a  question.  I  notice  these  town- 
ships are  all  down  around  the  county  of  Ren.frew,  and  I  was 
wondering  if  new  lines  would  have  to  be  run,  and  a  lot  of 
expense  be  caused  by  the  new  Act.   I  am  not  very  well 

-  161  -  2-21-45 

Mr.  Murray 

acquainted  with  the  surveyors'  language,  but  there  is  a 
lot  of  trouble  abbtit  these  lines.   You  have  heard  the 
old  saying  that  "a  farmer  has  lost  his  farm  over  a  line 
fence;  and  I  was  wondering  if  this  bill  would  cause  a  lot 
of  new  lines  to  be  run,  and  a  lot  of  new  fences  to  be 
built.   That  as  bothering  me. 

MR.  THOMPSON;  Mr.  Chairman,  it  will  not.  In  fact,  • 
it  will  lower  the  costs. 

MR.  £.  B.  JOLLIFFE( Leader  of  the  Opposition):  la 
what  way? 

MR.  GEORGE  H.  MITCHELL  (York  North) :  I  want  to 
follow  up  the  point  Just  made  by  the  last  speaker  (Mr.Murray) 
and  that  is  to  say  that  undoubtedly  if  a  different  method  is 
to  be  followed  now,  lines  must  be  created.  I  think  that 
point  is  quite  obvious.   Therefore,  the  owners  of  those 
properties  affected  must  have  new  lines  created.  ;7hat  kind 
of  a  situation  will  this  create?   $7111  it  mean  a 
lot  of  lawsuits  between  the  parties  affected,  or  what? 

MR.  THOMPSON:   This  will  rectify  what  has  been  going 
on  in  the  Department  since  1897.   The  method  of  running 
these  lines  was  changed,  and  certain  townships  were  given, 
exemptions  under  the  new  method.   That  was  in  1897,  and 
there  were  eight  townships  which  should  have  been  included, 
but  which  through  an  oversight  were  not,  and  we  now  propose 
to  add  these  eight  townships,  whereby  it  will  make 
surveying  much  cheaper,  and  will  not  change  the  lines. 

Imove  the  second  reading  of  the  bill. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  second  time, 

HON.  GEORGE  A  DREW. (Prime  Minister):  Mr.  Speaker 
as  the  other  bills  are  not  printed,  I  will  not  call  the 
last  two  orders,  but  I  might  say  before  moving  the  adjourn 
ment  that  the  debate  on  the  Speech  from  the  Throne  will  be 

168  -  E-2 1-45 

Mr. Drew. 

resumed  to-morrow  as  indicated,  and  I  presume  the  leader 
of  the  Liberal  party  will  wish  to  follow  the  Leader  of 
the  Opposition. 

MR.  M.F.  HiSPBURN  (Elgin):  The  usual  procedure  is  lor 
the  Leader  of  the  Opposition  to  apeak,  and  then  the  Leader 
of  the  Government,  and  I  will  go  on  on  Tuesday  of  next  weeX. 

MR.  DREW:  Last  year  the  Leader  of  the  Liberal  party 
spoke  following  the  Leader  of  the  Opposition  — 

MR.  HARRY  C.  NIXON  (Brant):  No,  my  hon.  friend  is 
in  error  there . 

MR.  DRS7/:  Am  I  in  error  in  that? 

MR.  NIXON:  Yes, 

MR.  DREW:  I  thought  it  would  be  better  to  do  it  in 
that  way.  We  followed  that  practice  in  the  latter  part  of 
the  session. 

I  would  have  thought  the  most  orderly  way  to  do 
would  be  to  hear  the  Leader  of  the  Opposition,  then  the 
Leader  of  the  Liberal  party,  and  the  hon.  member  for  Bellwoods 
(MTo  MacLeod),  who  would  follow  in  that  order. 

MR.  HEPBURN  (Elgin)   I  might  say  to  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  that  I  have  accepted  an  invitation  to  address  the 
Lions  Club  in  downtown  Toronto  to-morrow,  and  it  is  very  doubt- 
fu;  if  I  will  be  here  at  three  o'clock.   I  mention  this 
because  if  the  papers  get  hold  of  it,  they  cannot  say  I  am 
showing  any  disrespect  to  the  Leader  of  the  C.C.F.  or  the 
hon.  Prime  Minister  himself. 

MR.  DREW:  You  feel  it  is  not  your  wish  to  proceed, 
following  the  Leader  of  the  Opposition  (Mr.  Jolliffe)? 

MR.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):  No. 

MR.  DREW:  That  is  the  practice  we  have  followed, you 

-?  163  -  2-21-46 

will  remember,  in  regard  to  all  subsequent  discussions. 
That  was  our  first  experience  with  that  arrangement  in 
the  House . 

I  do  not  want  to  debate  it  back  and  forth,  but 
it  seems  to  m©  that  is  the  better  procedure  to  follow. 
if*  followed  that  afterwards  last  session  on  the  speeches 
on  the  budget,  and  all  subsequent  proceedings. 
MR.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):  I  think  the  proper  procedure  is  to 
do  as  we  did  last  year,  let  the  official  Leader  of  the 
Opposition  speak,  and  then  the  Leader  of  the  Government^ 
and  the  rest  of  us  lesser  lights  can  come  on  later. 

MR.  DREW:  I  do  not  want  to  prevent  you  from 
following  the  course  you  prefer. 

MR.  HEPBURN  (Elgin)  I  am  sure  my  hon.  friend  would 
not  try  to  prevent  me  from  speaking. 

MR,  DREW:  Mr.  Speaker,  1  move  the  adjournment  of 
the  Hous^B. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  the  House  adjourned  at 
4.17  p«m. 

"<»  164  "» 



SPEAKERS     Honourable  William  JoStewart,   C^BoEo,    • 

Toronto,  Ontario. 
February  22,   1945. 

The  House  met  at  three  of  the  clock,  poffio 

Prayers » 

ISRo   SPEAKER:  PetitionSo 

Reading  and  receiving  petitionSo 
Presenting  Reports  by  ComBiitteeSp 

ISRc   H,  A.  STEWART  (Kingston)!  MFo  Speaker,  I  beg 
to  present  the  report  of  the  Select  Committee  appointed 
to  strike  the  Standing  Committes  ordered  by  the  House,  and 
move  its  adoptiono 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:     Mto  Stewart  (Kingston) ^ 
Chairman  of  the  Select  Committee  appointed  to  prepare  lists 
of  members  to  compose  the  Select  Standing  Committees 
ordered  by  the  House,  begs  leave  to  present  the  following 
as  its  report: 

Your  Committee  recommends  that  the  Steinding 
Goimaittees  ordered  by  the  House  be  composed  as  follows: 
Committee  on  Privileges  and  Elections^ 

The  Honourable  MTo  Drew,  Messrs o  Ander3on,Arnott, 
Blaskwellj  Brownj  Casselmanp  Connor ^  Cook,  Dennison,  Dent, 
Docker p  Downie,  Duckworth,  Duff,  Frost,  Gordon,  Hanna, 
HepDurn  (Elgin),  Hunt,  Johnston,  Jolliffe,  Kelly ^  Kennedy, 
Laurierj  Leavens,  Luokock,  MacLeod,  Macphail,  Millard, 

-  165  - 

Murdockj  Mirrphy,  MoEwlng,  Mclntyrej  MoPhee,  Oliver,  . 
Patrick,  Pringlo,  Roberts,  Robertson,  Robinson  (Waterloo 
South),  Robson,  Scott,  Steel,  Stewart  (Kingston),  Strange, 
Webster  "-46. 

The  (Quorum  of  the  said  Committee  to  consist  of 
nine  members  o 

Committee  on  Education 

The  Honourable  Mto  Drew,  Messrs o  Begin,  Belanger, 
Brown,  Carlin,  Casselman,  Downer g  Downie,  Duff,  Dunbar, 
Frost,.  Goodfellow,  Hancock,  Johnston,  Jolliffe,  Kehoe, 
Kelly,  Luokock,  MacLeod,  Maophail,  Miller,  Murdoch,  Murphy, 
McDonalds  MoEwing,  McPhee,  Nixon,  Overall^  Patrick,  Porter, 
Pringleg  Riggs,  Roberts,  Robinson  (Port  Arthur) 5  Robinson 
(Waterloo  South)  j  Robson,  Strange^  Taylor  (Huron)  j,  Vivian, 
Warrenj  Webster 5  Williams  —  42o 

The  quorum  of  the  said  Committee  to  consist  of 
nine  members o 

Committee  on  Private  Bills. 

The  Honourable  MTo  Drew,  MessrSo  Acres ^  Anderson 
Arnott,  Begin,  Belanger,  Bennett,  Blaokwellj  Brown^  Carling 
Challies,  Connors,  Gookj  Daley,  Dennisong  Dickaon^  Docker 3 
Doucett,  Downer,  Duckworth,  Dunbar j  Frosty  Gordon,,  Grummettp 
Hallp  Hanoockj  Hanna,  Harvey,  Hepburn  (Prince  Edward-Lennox), 
Hepburn  (Elgin),  Hunt^  Jolliffe,  Kelly,  Kennedy,  LBavens, 
.Lookhart^  Luckockj  LacLeod,  Macphail,  Martinj,  Miller, 
Mitchell,  Murdoch,  Murphy 5  Murray,  McDonald,  McEwing, 
Kclntjrre,  McPhea,  Nixon,  Oliver,  Overall,  Patrick, 
Patterson^  Porter,  Pringle,  Reynolds,  Roberts,  Robinson 
(Port  Arthur) ,  Robson,  Scott,  Smith,  Steel,  Stewart  (Kingston), 
Strange,  Taylor  (Temiskaming) ,  Taylor  (Huron),  Thompson, 

-  166  - 

Thornberry,  Vivian,  Webster,  Williams,  Wlsmer  —  75o 

The  quorum  of  the  said  Committee  to  consist  of 
nine  members e 

Committee  on  Standing  Orders 

The  Honourable  Mr.  JDrew,  Messrs.  Aores,  Alles, 
Anderson,  Belanger,  Blaclcwell,  Carlln,  Connor,  Douoett, 
Duokworth,  Frost,  Grummett,  Hall,  Hepbiirn  (Prince  Edward- 
Lennox),  Kelly,  Laurler,  Lookhart,  Luokook,  uaoLaod, 
lailard,  Miller,  Murdoch,  McDonald,  MoPhee,  Nixon 
Ollyar,  Overall,  Patterion,  Porter,  Reynolds,  Biggs, 
Robertson,  Robson,  Soott,  Smith,  Steel,  Stewart  (Kingston), 
Strange,  Taylor  (Huron)  and  Warren  --  40« 

The  quorum  of  tho  said  Committee  to  consist  of 
five  members 0 

Committee  on  Public  Accounts, 

The  Honourable  MTo  Drew,  Messrs.  Acres,  Alles, 
Anderson,  Arnott,  Begin,  Belanger,  Bennett,  Blaokwall, 
Brown,  Casselman,  Challles,  Connor,  Daley,  Dennison,  Dent, 
Dloksonp  Douoett f  Downltf  Duckwortho  Dunbar,  Froit, 
Ooodfellow,  Qordon,  Orummett,  Hall,  Hepburn  (Frinoo  lidward- 
Lennox),  Hepburn  (Slgln),  Hunt,  J'ohnstoni  Jolllffe,  Kahoe, 
Kelly,  Kennedy,  Leavens,  Lockhart,  Luokook,  MaoOllllTray, 
MlBioLeod,  Millard,  Millar,  Mitchell,  Murdoch,  Murphy, 
Molntyre,  McPhee,  Nixon,  Oliver,  Overall,  Patrick, 
Patterson,  Porter,  Prlngle,  Reynolds,  Rlggs,  Roberts,  Robinson, 
(Port  Arthur),  Robinson  (Waterloo  South),  Smith,  Stewart, 
(Kingston) , Strange,  Taylor  (Temiskaming),  Taylor  (Huron), 
I'hompson,  Thornberry,  Vivian,  Warren,  Webster,  Williams, 
Wlsmer .  —  70o 

The  quorum  of  the  said  Committee  to  consist  of 
nine  members. 

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-  167 

Committee  on  Printing; 

The  Honourable  R5ro  Drew,  Messrso  Alles,  Anderson 
Arnottj,  Begin,  Casaelman,  Challies,  Dennison,  Dent, 
Dickson,  Docker,  Duff,  Dunbar p  Goodfellow,  Hanna,  Hunt, 
Kelly s  Kennedy,  Laurler,  Leavens,  Luckock,  Liillard, 
Murphy,  Mclntyrej  Pringle,  Riggs,  Roberts.  Robertson;, 
Salsberg,  Taylor  (Temiskaning)  —  30 o 

The  quorum  of  the  said  Committee  to  consist  of 
five  members o 
Committee  on  Municipal  law 

The  honourable  MTo  Drew,  Messrs.,  Anderson, Arnott 9 
Begin^  Belangers  Bennett p  Blackwellj  Brown^  Carlin,  Challies, 
Daley 3  Dennison,  Dent,  Docker,  Douce ttp  Duckworth,  Dunbar, 
Frosty  G-oodfelloWg  Gordon,  Grummettg  Hancock,  Hanna^ 
Harv«y^  Hepburn  (Elgin) 3  Hunt,  Johnston,  Jolliffe,  Kehoe 
Kelly,  Kennedys  Laurlor,  Leavens,  Lockhart^  MacGlllivrayg 
Martin^  Mitchells  Murdochj  Murphy 9  Murrey j,  McDonald, 
McEwings  McPheej  Nixon,  Patrick,  Pattersonj  Porter, 
ReynoldSa  Riggs,  Roberts,,  Robinson  (Port  Arthur),  Robinson 
(Waterloo  South) 3  Salsberg^  Smith,  Steel,  Stewart  (Kingston), 
Strange  5  Taylor  (Temiskaming)  9  Thompson,  Thornberry.,  Vidian, 
Williams  »»  62o 

The  quorum,  (bf  the  said  Committee  to  consist  of 
nine  members o 

Goiamittee  on  Legal  Billso 

The  Honourable  MTo  Drew,  Messrs o  Arnottg  Belanger, 
Blackwellj  Brown,  Dennisonj,  Docker ^  Frost,  Grummett, 
Hancock,  Hepburn  (Prince  Edward^Lennox) ,  Jolliffe 3  Kehoe, 
Kelly,  Laurier,  LacLeod,  Murdochj  McDonald,  Nixon,  Patrick, 
Porters  Reynolds,  Roberts,  Robinson  (Waterloo  South),  Scott 
Stewart  (Kingston),  Taylor  (Temiskaming) ,  Taylor  (Huron), 



,18*  If 

-  168  - 

Warran,  Wisnj^r  —  30o 

The  quorum  of  the  said  .Committee  to  consist  of 
five  memberso 

Committee  on  Agriculture  and  Colonization 

The  Honourable  Mto  Drew,  Messrso  Acres,  Anderson 
Belenger,  Browne  Carlin,  Casselman,  Challies,  Cook  , 
Denniaon,  Dent,  Dickson,  Douce tt,  Downer,  Dovnxie,  Duff, 
Goodfellow,  Hall,  Hancock,  Hanna,  Hepburn  (Prince  Edward- 
Lennox),  Hepburn  (Elgin},  Hunt,  Johnston,  Jolliffe,  Kel3y, 
Kennedy,  Leavens,  Lookhart,  Luokook,  Macphail,  Martin 
Mitchell,  Murdoch,  Murphy,  Murray,  McDonald,  McEwing, 
i^Intyra,  Nixon,  Olivar,  Overall,  Patrick,  Fr ingle, 
Reynolds,  Robinson  (Waterloo  South),  Robson,  Salsberg, 
Soott,  Smith,  Steel,  Strange,  Taylor  (Temiskamlng),  Taylor, 
(Huron),  Thompson,  Warren,  Webster  *-  57e 

The  quorum  of  the  said  Committee  to  oonsist  of 
nine  members e 

Oommittae  on  Tiah  and  Grami 

The  Honourable  Mr«  Drew,  Messrs ^  Acres,  Alles 
Bennett,  Brown,  Carlin,  Casselnan,  Challies,  Cook,  Dent, 
Dioksoni  Docker,  Douoett,  Dunbar,  Ooodfellow,  Gordon, 
Grunmett,  Hall,  Kanoook,  Hannt,  Harvey,  Hepburn  (Prlnoe 
Mward- Lennox),  Hepburn  (Elgin),  Hunt,  Johnston,  Kehoe, 
Kelly,  Lockhart,  Luokook,  MaoOilllvray,  Martin,  Millard, 
Miller,  Mltohellp  Murdoch,  Uarrty,  McDonald,  Molntyra, 
MoPhee,  Nixon,  Oliver,  Overall,  Patriak,  Patterson,  Porter, 
Pringle,  Reynolds,  Rlggs,  Robiiison  (Port  Arthur),  Robson, 
Salsberg«  Sootty  Smith,  Stewart  (Kingston) »  Strange 
Taylor  (Temiskamlng),  Taylor  (Huron),  Thompson,  Warren 
Webster,  VisSier  --  61. 

-  169   - 

The  quoriim  of  the   said  Committee  to  consist  of 
nine  members  o 

Committee  on  Labour 

The  Honourable  ISCo   Drew,   Messrs*   Alles,   Arnott, 
Belanger,  Blackvrell,   Carlin,   Challies,  Connor,   Cook, 
Daley,   Duckworth,   Gordon,  Hall,  Harvey,  Hepburn   (Prince 
Edv/ard-Lennox) ,   Hepburn   (Elgin),   Jolliffe,   Kelly,   Leavens, 
Luckock,   MacGillivray,   Millard,   Murdoch,  Murohy,   Murray, 
McPhoe,   Nixon,  Porter,   Reynolds,  Riggs,   Roberts,  Robertson, 
Robinson  (Port  Arthur),  Salsberg,   Scott,   Steel,  Strange, 
Taylor   (Huron),   Thompson,   Williams  — ■  40o 

The  quorum  of  ithe  said  Committee  to  consist  of 
seven  memberso 

All  of  which  is  respectfully  submittedo 

(Signed)     Ho  Ao  Stewart 

Report  adopted o  Chairman o 

l^.   SPEAKER:   Mot ions o 

Introduction  of  BillSo 

HONe    lESLIE  Mo  FROST   (Provincial  Treasurer):   MTo 
Speaker 9    I  beg  to  movejj   seconded  by  Mto   Blackwell,    that 
leave  be   given  to  introduce  entituled,    "An  Act  to  amend 
the   Damages  by  Fumes  Arbitration  Act,"  and  that  the  same  be 
now  read  for  the  first  timOo 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read   the  first  time* 

Iffi.    GEORGE  LOCKHART   (Rainy  River):      Would  the 
hono   Minister  please  elaborate  ;on  that? 

MRo  FROST:      The  amendments  is  a  coniparatively 
simple  oneo       The  present  Act  provides  for  certain  adminis- 
tration expenseso        The  administration  expenses  are  contri- 
buted by  the  companies  which  cause  the   damages.  The 
amount  which   the  companies  for  administration  expenses  is 
$5 3 000 5   and  that  must  not  ^q  confused,   of  course,   with  the 
amount  of  damages  by  poinoned  gases  and   fumeso        This   is 
for  administration  only. 

-   170   »  2-22-45 

$5,000,   and  that  must  not  bo   confused ^   of  course,   with 
the  amount  of  damages  by  poisoned  gases  and  fumeso   This 
is  for  administration  onlyo 

This  amendment   increases  that  amount  to  ^lOsOOO, 
instead  of  $5s,000j  because  we  intend  to  extend  our  work  to 
quite  an  extent  dxiring  the  corning  yearo 

HONo   GEORGE  H.    DOUCETT   (Minister  of  Public   Works )s 
Mto  Speaker,   I  move,   seconded  by  Mr^   Challles,    that  lea-ve 
be  given  to  introduce  a  bill  entituleds    ''An  Act  to  amend 
the  Public  Works  Act,"  and  that  same  be  now  read  the  first 

Jtotion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time.-, 

MR.    GEORGE  H.   MITGIiELL  (York  North )j    Will  the 
hono   Minister  kindly  explain  the  Bill? 

MRo    DOUCETT:      This  Bill  recoirjuends  an  amendment 
to  the  Act 5  making  it  possible  for  the   go^rnment  to  offer 
compensation  for  properties  purchased  by  letter,    instead 
of  legal  tender o 

HONo    LESLIE  E.   BLAGKWELL  (Attomey-General) :   JijCo 
Speaker^    I  movcg   seconded  by  Mto  .Frosty   that  leave  be 
given  to   introduce  a  bill  entituled^    '^An  Act  to  repeal 
the  Political  Constitutions  Act,    ^  ftnd   that  same  be  now 
read   the  first  timeo 

Motion  agr-eed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  timeo 

HRc   WILLUM  Jo   GRUL3i/lETT   (Cochrane  South) :    I  wonder 
if  the  hono  lanister  would  kindly  explain  the  billo 

MRo   BLACK//ELL:     MTo  Speaker, >    that  is  one  of  the 
recommendations  of  the  Select  Committee  of  the   3>gislature 
on  the  Election  Act,   and  this  bill  ia   introduced  to  implement 
that  reoommendationo 

I  now  move;,   MTo  Speaker j  seconded  by  Mco  Frost, 
that  leave  be  given  to   introduce  a  bill  entituled. 

-   171  •  2-22-45 

"An  Act  to  ajsond  the  Judioatirre  Aot,**  and  that  same  ba 
now  read  for  the  first  time. 

Motion  agretd  to  and  bill  raad  the  first  tlmso 
URo  SPEAKER:     Ur»  I>rew  has  asked  the  privilege 
of  rising  before  the  Orders  of  the  Dayo       The  Chair  now 
recognizes  itto  Drewo 

HON.   GEOBGS  A.   DREW   (Prime  Ulnlster):     Ur. 
Speaker,   I  feel  sure  it  will  be  the  pleasure  of  hen.oembers 
that  we  dr«w  to  their  attention  the  fact  that  there  is  on 
the  floor  of  the  Legislature  another  representatlTe  of  one 
of  the  fighting  serTloes,  assoelated  with  the  coamoB  oauae, 
whioh  is  apparently  eoming  closer  to  vietory  all  the  tlmei 
and  with  your  perzalision,  I  would  ask  Colonel  Zabotln,  of 
the  U08080R0  forces,  to  step  forward, 

••»•  Colonel  Zabotln  presented  to  the  Speaker* 

HOK«  OSCiiaE  A  DRIV  (Prime  Minister):     May  I  sty 
to  you,  sir,  oa  behalf  of  the  menbers  of  this  Rouae  that 
«•  weloone  you  here  as  a  representative  of  that  great 
arny  which  on  the  other  side  of  the  enemy  is  driring  to- 
ward victory  at  such  speed  to-daye 

OOLOKIL  ZABOTINi     Thank  you  very  mueh,  air* 

MR.  M.  r.  I2PBURK  (Slgin)     Mr^  Spaaktr,  may  I  Join 
with  tht  hon«  Prime  Mlniater  in  extending  a  hearty  Wilooma 
to  our  distinguished  gueat,  who  is  not  only  a  great  hero, 
but  a  great  military  stpategiat  of  the  Russian  Armyg 

It  Is  rather  singular  that  he  is  here  on  the 
occasion  of  the  £7th  anniversary  of  the  creation  of  that' 
great  body  of  men  which  have  suffered  so  much,  but  who, at 
the  same  time,  have  contributed  so  much  to  ultimate  allied 
vietoryo       I  want  to  say,  Mr«  Speaker,  to  him  and  to  his  nation 
that  they  have  set  an  example  to  a  bewildered  world,   in 

-   172  -•  2-22-45 

ITr  o  Hepburn  ( Elgin ) 

connoction  with  national  unity,  because  they  have  moulded 
together  over  one  hundred  nations  into  one  so lid j  compact 
wholeo  May  we  wish  you;,  sir^  every  success  in  the  great 
conflict  in  which  we  are  associated  with  youo 

-»  Colonel  Zabotin  retiredo 

HON.    GEORGE  Ao    DREW  (Prime  Minister);   MTo  Speaker, 
again  before  the  Orders  of  the   Day,    I  rise  to  speak  on  a 
matter  of  major  importance,    in  view  of  two  statements 
which  are  reported  in  this  morning* s  press  and  which  have  a 
very  direct  bearing  on  matters  of  utmost  concern  to  this 

Two  announoements  by  Dominion  cabinet  ministers 
last  night  call  for  an  immediate  statement  from  this  Govern- 
mento       One  was  contained  in  a  speech  of  the  Honourable 
Brooke  Claxton  in  Halifax  last  night,    and  the  other  was  a 
press  announcement  from  Ottawa  that  the   Dominion  Miiister 
of  Health  and  Welfare.,  MTo   Claxton,   and  the  Minister  of 
National  War  Services,   irlr,    LaFlechej,   had  made  arrangements 
with  the  Women's  JToluntary  Services   to  take  part  in  the 
registration  and  sorting  of  forms  required  for  the  payment 
of  Family  Allowances  right  across  Canada o 

In  his  speech  in  Halifax 5  MTo   Claxton  made  it  clear 
that  he   looks  upon  Family  Allowances  as  part  of  "^a  broad 
system  of  social  security©  ••       This  Government  has  from  the 
beginning  been  conviiced  that  Femily  Allowances  are  an 
integrated  part  of  the  whole  question  of  social  security 5,   and 
has  so  statedo        The  members  of  this   Legislature  will  recall 
that   I  made  this  clearand  definite  statement  on  behalf  of 
the  Ontario  Government  on  August  9th  last:    "We  are   in  favour 
of  every  proper  step  being  taken  to  encourage  large  and 
healthy  familieso     ffe  believe  in  sound  provisions  for  Family 

»  173  -  2-22-45 

i£r.  Drew 

Allowances  and  social  security*"   That  was  our  position 

theno  That  is  o;u'  position  to-day*   I  have  stated  over 

and  over  again  that  we  regard  Fanlly  Allowances  as  one 

of  the  most  important  social  services;  that  it  is  therefore 

within  the  exclusive  constitutional  jurisdiction  of  the 

provinces;  that  the  provinces  must  be  consulted  if  there  is 

to  be  any  effective  administration  of  Family  Allowances; 

and  i  have  publicly  urged  over  and  over  again  thtit  there 

be  a  Dominion-Provincial  Conference  to  settle  the  basis  upon 

which  the  Dominion  and  Provincial  governments  of  this 

country  can  best  combine  their  legislative  authority  for  the 

benefit  of  all  our  people. 

The  problem  with  which  this  and  every  provincial 

government  is  faced  has  been  stated  most  clearly  by  the 

Honourable  Stuart  Garson,  Premier  of  Kanitobao  l  will  q[Uote 

his  own  words  on  the  subject: 

"We  are  still  puzzled  as  to 
one  of  the  most  important  pointso 
oooffe  have  no  information  before 
us  which  indicates  conclusively 
whether  the  Doioinion  G-overnmsnt  itself 
regards  and  justifies  Family  Allow- 
ances primarily  as  a  social  security 
measure  J  or  as  an  instrument  of 
federal  fiscal  policyoooo 

"It  seems  to  me  that  the 
point  here  is  that  the  Dominion 
Government  in  introducing  Family 
Allowances  without  consulting  the 
provinces 3  whose  jurisdiction  over 
the  field  of  social  services  here- 
tofore in  practise  has  been  consider- 
ed almost  exclusive p  surely  could 
not  have  intended  to  justify  thefti  sole- 
ly or  even  primarily  as  a  social  ser- 
vice measure^  As  such  they  would 
constitute  a  federal  intrusion  in  a 
provincial  field  of  jurisdictiono 

That  is  the  end  of  the  quotation  from  MPo  Garson' s 

statemento   I  do  not  believe  the  situation  could  be  more 

clearly  stated©  If  Faiily  Allowances  are  to  be  regarded 

solely  or  even  primarily  as  a  social  service  measure,  then 

174  -  2-22-45 


again  to  quote  Mr.  Garson*s  words,  "They  would  constitute 
a  federal  intrusion  in  a  provincial  field  of 

Now  we  are  told  by  the  Minister  responsible  for 
the  administration  of  this  Act  that  it  is  part  of  a  broad 
system  of  social  securityo   If  that  is  so,  and  we  have 
never  been  in  any  doubt  that  it  was  so,  then  this  Act  la 
an  intrusion  upon  the  provincial  field  of  jurisdiction 
without  any  consultation  with  the  provinceso   In  fact, 
the  situation  goes  very  much  farther  than  that.   Having 
disregarded  the  constitutional  position  of  the  provinces 
and  their  jurisdiction  over  social  services  in  the  intro- 
duction of  the  Act,  the  Dominion  Government  has  refused 
repeated  requests  from  myself  —  and  may  I  say  to  those 
who  think  it  is  a  special  concern  of  mine  —  and  other 
provincial  premiers  for  a  Domlnion'-Provincial  Conference 
to  discuss  this  and  other  invasions  of  our  authority o 

I  wish  to  assure  the  members  of  this  Legislature 
that  we  have  at  all  times  made  it  abundantly  clear  that  wo 
were  not  seeking  to  raise  constitutional  issues  but  that 
we  were  seeking,  and  will  seek^  to  avoid  constitutional 
difficulties  in  the  future,   I  have  made  it  clear,  and  I 
believe  the  Premiers  of  other  provinces  have  made  it  equally 
clearj  that  our  purpose  in  insisting  upon  a  Dominion- 
Provincial  Conference  immediately  is  not  to  raise  barriers 
against  measures  which  will  be  for  the  benefit  of  our  people, 
but  rather  to  make  sure  that  we  combine  the  full  constitu- 
tional power  of  the  Dominion  and  Provincial  Governments,   v/e 
also  want  to  make  sure  that  any  measures  that  are  adopted 
for  the  benefit  of  our  people  will  not  be  upset  afterwards 
by  legislation  carried  into  the  coxirts  to  test  their 

-  175  -  2-S2-45 

Mr.  Drew 

People  perhaps  do  sometimes  forget  that  this  Is 
not  something  that  must  be  done  only  at  the  initiation 
of  the  Government.   They  perhaps  will  recall  that  what 
upaet  the  whole  N.R.Ao  in  the  United  States  was  a  man 
in  Brooklyn  who  objected  to  the  way  the  government  of 
the  United  States  sold  chickens,  and  he  took  it  into 
court  and  upset  the  whole  NoRoAo 

We  also  wish  to  make  sure  that  the  highly  trained 
and  competent  social  service  workers  in  the  different 
provinces  have  their  part  in  the  administration  of  any 
plans  of  social  security  which  may  be  adopted. 

Anyone,  with  the  least  knowledge  of  family  and 
child  welfare,  knows  that  the  health,  housing,  nurture, 
and  all  the  interests  of  human  beings,  hang  together  in 
a  well-integrated  whole.   You  cannot  deal  with  the  human 
needs  of  a  family  to-day  without  relating  closely  all  the 
resources  in  your  social  catalogue  —  material  care, 
nutrition,  housing,  mothers*  allowances,  all  forms  of 
assistance,  etc.     So,  your  whole  welfare  security  pro- 
gramme cannot  be  done  on  a  bits  and  pieces  basis.   It  has 
to  be  unified  and  its  administration  rests  with  the 
provinces  unless  the  whole  basis  of  confederation  is  to 
be  destroyed. 

Now,  only  yesterday  the  Premier  of  Saskatchewan 
stated  in  the  Saskatchewan  Legislature, that  the  recent 
events  in  Canada  have  shown  the  need  for  a  Dominion- 
Provincial  Conference,  as  pressing  problems  have  not 
received  attention,  and  —  and  I  quote  —  "they  cannot  go 
on  much  longero" 

He  said,  further,  that  it  was  necessary  that  there 
be  a  Dominion-Provincial  Conference  of  premiers  to  meet 

-  176  -  2-22-45 

MTo  Drew 

with  Prime  Minister  Mackenzie  King-  and  I  quote  again  — 
"and  develop  the  means  of  secxiring  more  amicable  relations 
with  the  Dominion  and  also  discuss  the  basis  of  re-confed- 
era^ion.   There  must  be  a  discussion  of  postwar  plans  so 
that  we  will  not  face  a  great  economic  catastrophe." 

With  that  statement  I  quoted,  I  am  in  entire 
agreement o   It  represents  the  exact  position  taken  by  this 
province o 

In  view  of  these  statements 5  the  members  of  this 
Legislature  should  be  informed  of  the  position  we  have  * 
takeno   It  is  my  duty  to  inform  themo   Since  this  Legisla- 
ture last  met,  when  we  last  had  an  opportunity  to  discuss 
this  matter,  we  have  made  numerous  requests  for  meeting  with 
the  Dominion  Government  to  discuss  this  and  other  subjects » 
Ihen  MTo  King  stated  that  there  would  be  no  conference  until 
after  an  election  «—  he  made  that  statement,  as  you  will 
recallj  somewhere  about  the  middle  of  last  August  -•»  I  did  not 
even  then  give  up  hope  that  we  might  convince  him  of  the 
necessity J  and  I  wrote  again  to  him  pointing  out  how 
necessary  it  was  that  a  conference  he  held  and  that  no  person- 
al differences  of  opinion  should  interfere  with  that 
conference o 

In  his  reply  to  me  on  September  9th  he  disposed  of 

my  request  in  these  words  -«•  and  I  quote: 

"As  to  the  time  for  holding 
the  Dominion-Provincial  Conference, 
there  is  nothing  I  can  add  to  what 
I  have  already  said  in  the  House 
of  Commons  a" 

That  letter  arrived  while  I  was  away  from  my  office,  and  in 

my  absence  the  Hono  Leslie  Frost  wrote  to  him  on 

September  21st  las to  These  are  the  two  closing  Paragraphs 

of  his  letter,  and  I  ask  you  to  listen  to  them  carefully  in 

177  -  2-22-45 

Mr  o  Dr  ew 

view  of  the  reiiuests  that  have  been  made  by  other 

provincial  governments  in  this  last  few  days*  He  said: 

"The  Government  of  Ontario, 
with  its  some  nine  hundred  municipali- 
ties has  formulated  very  necessary 
plans  for  postwar  work^   On  these 
plans  depend  the  employment  of  tens  ' 
of  thousands  of  our  citizens  and 
the  re-establishment  of  very  great 
numbers  of  our  service  man  and  women 
and  munition  workers.   Long  ago  we 
reached  the  point  where  it  was  appar- 
ent that  there  should  be  a  Dominion- 
Provincial  Conference  to  discuss  and 
determine  matters  which  are  vital  to 
the  carrying  out  of  the  schemes  of 
the  Government  of  Ontario,  and  the 
municipalities  of  the  province* 
We  have  accordingly  urged  a  conference* 

"In  order  to  assist  the  Dominion 
Government  to  defeat  the  axis  enemies 
the  province  gave  to  the  Dominion 
certain  of  its  taxing  and  other 
powers 0   This  was  done  patriotically 
and  in  good  faltho   We  feel  that  with 
the  approach  of  peace  we  are  about 
to  be  faced  with  a  task  which  will  be  as 
great  in  iragnitude  as  that  of  waging 
the  waro   It  is  plain  that  in  order  to 
make  our  plans  effectives,  we  must  have 
a  clear  understanding  concerning  our 
taxing  powers  and  other  matters© 

"The  year  which  has  now  elapsed 
since  the  Dominion-Provincial  Conference 
was  asked  for  has  retarded  the  plans  of 
the  province,  and  with  it,  the  plans  of 
the  municipalities  and  industryo  V/e 
feel  iii  the  interests  of  everyone  that 
a  conference  should  be  held  iramediatelyo 
.*e  have  been  ready  for  months,," 

That  is  the  end  of  the  quotationo   That  letter, 
as  I  said,  was  written  by  Hono  IJro  Frost  in  my  absence, on 
September  21st  las to 

ISTo   Speaker,  to  that  courteous,  reasonable  and 
vitally  iriiportant  request,  in  the  interests  of  the  people 
of  this  province  and  of  Canada,  there  has  never  to  this  day 
been  any  reply  or  acknowledgement  of  any  kindo 

In  spite  of  that,  I  r.^^ated  my  request  for  a 
conference  the  day  before  the  opening  of  this  session,  in 

~  178  -  2~2S-45 

IiiTo  Drew 

the  following  wire,  dated  February  14th  --  and  I  quote: 

"Increasing  hope  of  victory 
In  Europe  this  year  makes  it  impera- 
tive that  at  least  a  preliminary  meet- 
ine  be  held  between  representatives 
of  the  Dominion  and  Provincial  Govern- 
ments to  settle  basic  principles  of 
ir.tergovernraental  co-operation  in  pre- 
paring postwar  plans  for  construction, 
rehabilitation  and  social  services^ 
Without  entering  into  any  discussion 
of  earlier  reasons  which  you  gave  for 
not  calling  a  Dominion-Provincial 
Conference  I  do  wish  to  express  my 
firm  conviction  that  a  start  must  be 
made  imm;ediately  if  there  is  to  be 
orderly  planning  for  the  future o 
No  matter  when  the  first  meeting  is 
called  it  will  only  be  the  beginning 
of  a  series  of  conferences  and  I  urge 
you  at  least  to  ask  the  premiers  of  the 
provinces  to  meet  you  in  Ottawa  immediate- 
ly if  you  are  not  prepared  to  call  a 
Dominion-Provincial  Conferenceo   No 
matter  what  differences  of  opinion 
have  existed  between  the  heads  of  any 
governments  in  the  past  I  believe  that 
the  welfare  of  Canada  demands  that  these 
be  forgotten  in  face  of  the  obvious  need 
for  a  meeting  at  the  earliest  possible  dateo" 

To  that  wire  I  have  received  no  answePo  I  believe 
that  the  request  I  made  is  of  the  utmost  importance o   I 
believe  it  was  made  in  terms  which  at  least  called  for  some 
responseo  Having  regard  to  the  fact  that  right  across 
Canada  serious  friction  is  developing  between  the  Dominion 
and  Provincial  Governments »  as  the  result  of  the  complete 
disregard  by  the  Dominion  Government  of  the  constitutional 
responsibilities  of  those  Provincial  Governments j  I  am 
certain  that  the  very  least  which  should  be  done  is  to  have 
a  meeting  of  the  premiers  of  the  provinces  to  lay  the 
foundation  for  more  effective  intergovernmental  cooperationo 

In  no  single  case  is  that  so  necessary  as  in  the 
case  of  family  allowances,  and  particularly  in  view  of  these 
statements  reported  to-day^   The  announcement  from  Ottawa 

-  179  -  £-22-45 


last  night  that  the  Women's  Voluntary  Services  are  to 
handle  the  registration  forms  and  sort  out  th* 
information,  raises  a  question  of  the  utmost  oonoom 
to  every  Canadian.   Intolerable  although  it  is  for  the 
oonstltutlonal  Integrity  of  a  free  province  to  have  its 
who  It  structure  of  social  servlots  ooaxplettly  dlsrtgairdfd, 
this  announcement  has  the  effect  of  destroying  the 
sanctity  of  the  home,  and  the  privacy  of  the  indlTldoalt 

To  British  subjects  everywhere,  the  home  has  bean 
a  castle,  where  not  even  the  King  may  enter  except  by 
Invitation  or  legal  ivarrant.  Now  we  are  told, however, 
that  parents  who  apply  for  this  allowance  will  be  laying 
•pen  all  the  details  of  thalr  lives,  their  marital  status 
and  relations,  seorats  bravaly  and  sadly  borna,  traetdita 
proudly  tndurtd,  to  the  reading  and  examination  of  thoit 
who  no  matter  how  admirable  they  may  be  as  IndlTlduala, 
art|  after  all,  neighbours  living  In  tha  saaa  community 
who  art  bound  by  no  aath  of  off lot,  nor  by  tha  tradltieui 
and  oontral  of  our  slowly  davalopad  staff  In  tha  publlo 
and  private  welfara  ssrvloas* 

MS.  L.  GRSIVD:  ROBINSON  (Watarloo  South):  £»• 
Spaakar,  en  a  point  of  ordar;  is  thara  a  tins  limit  ta 
thaaa  stataoants  whloh  ara  mada  bafera  tha  Ordari  of  tha 

EON.  LESLIE  E.  BLACKWEU  (Attornay  Qanaral): 
Don't  you  like  it? 

IIR.  SPEAKER:   I  think  the  hon.  PrlAa  Minister  la 
quite  in  order. 

UR  DREW:  Perhaps,  if  tha  hon*  member  far  Waterloo 
South  (Mr.  Robinson)  would  write  to  the  ^n.  Ur»   Douglaa 
he  would  find  out  how  long  he  talked  en  this  subject. 

-  180  -  2-22-45 

Mr. Drew 

MR.  ROBINSON  (Waterloo  South):  Not  a  bad  man  to 
quote  fromo 

VSR,   DRETT:  He  has  shovm  much  more  co-operation 
in  this,  than  the  Right  Hono  Prime  Minister  of  Canada. 

But  I  will  continue 0   Our  Children's  Aid 
Societies,  are  great  Protestant,  Catholic  and  Jewish 
welfare  bureaus,  and  other  trained  agencies  dealing  with 
the  family  are  completely  disregarded. 

To  subject  the  parents  of  this  province,  and 
especially  those  of  low  income,  who  have  not  been  able  to 
avail  themselves  of  the  full  opportunity  for  education, 
to  the  interrogation  or  even  advice  of  those  without 
special  training,  would  be  a  shameful  thing.   Nothing 
that  I  have  said  carries  anj'-  reflection  upon  the  splendid 
women  who  have  worked  so  hard  in  the  Women's  Voluntary 
Serviceso   I  know  that  their  patriotic  motives  are  of 
the  highest,  but  they  banded  themselves  together  for  patriot- 
is  war  services,  and  not  for  civilian  social  work.  Anyone 
with  any  experience  in  dealing  with  family  matters  of  this 
kind,  realizes  the  necessity  for  long  training,  for  a 
high  degree  of  responsibility,  and  above  all,  for  complete 
secrecy  in  regard  to  many  unhappy  details  which  must,  of 
necessity,  be  disclosed  in  cases  of  this  kind. 

There  are  recognized  provincial  agencies,  both 
©f  the  government  and  of  private  organizations,  with  a 
proud  record  of  many  generations  of  actual  administration 
of  social  services*   They  are  fully  qualified  to  under- 
take this  or  other  social  administration.  The  announce- 
ment last  night  that  these  organizations  are  being  coiaplete- 
ly  disregarded,  to  say  nothing  of  the  trained  staff  of  the 

-  181  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Drew 

provincial  departments  of  public  welfare,  is  a  challenge 
to  every  basic  principle  of  constitutional  government  in 
thia  country.   The  provinces  have  their  field  of 
jurisdictien.   The  Dominion  Governcaent  has  its  own 
responsibilityo   No  one  in  this  country  can  possibly 
benefit  by  any  action  of  the  Dominion  Government  beyond 
the  field  of  its  own  aiiithority,  no  matter  how  attractive 
its  promise  may  appear  to  be. 

Family  allowances  only  have  a  place  as  part  of  an 
integrated  plan  of  sustained  employment  and  social  security. 
As  Premier  Garson  has  so  clearly  pointed  out,  there  has 
never  been  any  doubt  about  the  jurisdiction  of  the  provinces 
over  the  field  of  social  services. 

I  repeat,  with  the  utmost  emphasis,  that  we  are  in 
favour  of  a  proper  system  of  family  allowances,  properly 
administered.   But  it  would  be  nothing  short  of  a  breach 
©f  public  trust  to  disregard  the  serious  consequences  of 
the  course  now  being  followed  by  the  Dominion  Government. 
The  glowing  promises  of  the  Dominion  Government  are  being 
built  around  a  constitutional  house  of  cards. 

In  view  of  these  two  announcements  last  night,  to 
irtiich  I  have  referred,  I  must  repeat  with  the  utmost 
earnestness  the  same  request  which  has  been  made  by  the 
Premier  of  Saskatchewan  yesterday,  and  which  has  been  made 
by  other  provincial  Premiers  in  the  last  few  weeks. 

I  am  convinced  that  there  is  no  single  step  so 
necessary  in  meeting  our  domestic  problems  as  a  Dominion- 
Provincial  Conference,  or,  failing  that,  a  conference  of 
Premiers  to  discuss  the  best  plan  for  carrying  into  effect 
family  allowances,  and  other  measures  of  social  security, 

-  181^  2-22-45 

as  wall  as  the  broad  basis  for  postwar  construe tlon  and 
rehabilitation,   ^o  postpone  such  a  conference  until 
after  a  dominion  election,  whenever  that  may  be,  may 
jeopardise  for  years  to  come  the  welfare  of  the  whole  of 
Canada . 

MR.  SRWKSR:   .  The  Chair  recognizes  the  hon.  member 
for  St»  Andrew  (Mr,  Salsberg), 

ME*  JOSEPH  B.  SALSBERG  (St.  Andrew):  Mr,  Speaker, 
I  would  like  to  direct  a  ciuestion  to  the  hon.  Prime  Minister 
and  inciuire  when  he  intends  to  call  the  motion  I  have  on 
the  Order  Paper » 

Mto  Speaker,  in  view  of  the  fact  that  the  motion 
calls  for  the  setting  up  of  a  Select  Committee  to  make  certain 
studies  and  recommendations  to  this  Eousa .,  any  failure  to  act 
upon  the  motion  early  in  the  session  may  prevent  any  action 
being  taken  during  the  life  of  the  session,  which  normally 
is  not  very  long, 

I  would,  therefore,  appreciate  it  if  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister  would  agree  to  call  the  motion  now,  or  make 
clear  when  he  intends  to  call  it. 

HON.  a^ORGJi;  A.  DRiiVY  (Prima  Minister):  Mr.  Speaker, 
in  view  of  the  earlier  announcement,  it  is  not  the  intention 
to  call  the  motion  now,  but  I  will  state  on  Monday  what  our 
intention  is  in  respect  to  this  motion. 

MR.  SPEiKiiR:  Orders  of  th«  Day, 

KR.  M,  F.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):  Mr.  Speaker,  before 
the_  Orders  of  the  Day  are  called,  I  would  like  to  discuss  a 
question  which  was  raised  by  the  hon.  Prime  Minister,  and 
properly  so,  i  think,  and  I  think  you  exercised  good  judgment 
in  allowing  him  to  proceed.  I  do  not  think  we  should  be 

182  -  2-22-45 

.  Mr»Hepburn  (Elgin) 

bouncd  by  hard  and  fast  rules  in  this  House,  particularly 
when  a  matter  of  great  public  importance  is  being 

1  was  one  of  those  who  raised  an  objection  when  th« 
?afliily  lllowances  bill  was  introduced  into  the  Dominion 
parliament,   I  thought  it  was  ill-timed  action  on  the  eve 
of  a  general  election  in  the  province  of  Ontario,  and  I  do 
doubt  the  authority  of  the  Dominion  to  enact  legislation 
of  that  kind,   I  share  the  view  of  the  hon*  Prime  Minister 
that  social  measures  come  under  the  Jurisdiction  and 
authority  of  the  provincial  governments. 

Since  then,  the  situation  has  been  rather  clarified. 
The  bill  was  passed  imanimously  in  the  Dominion  parliament.  ■ 
Every  Tory  voted  for  the  aioasure,  and  Jvj'j?.,  Graydon  made  the 
announcement  and  said  that  he  was  voting  for  the  motion 
with  the  complete  approval  of  his  leader,  Mr.  John  Bracken. 

Now  we  come  to  the  present  situation.  I  refer  to 

the  speech  made  by  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  of  Ontario  on 

August  9th  last  over  a  provincial-wide  hook-up,  when  he  said; 

"That  the  advice  of  the  very 
able  Attorney  General  of  the  province 
is  that  family  allowances  are  entirely 
within  provincial  jurisdiction." 

Since  then,  legal  opinions  have  been  given  by  other 
great  lawyers  to  the  effect  that  the  Dominion  can  legislate 
any  kind  of  measure  in  the  interests  of  Canada.  In  other 
words,  the  Dominion  can  pay  any  sum  it  sees  fit  out  of  the 
federal  treasury  to  any  person  whom  the  Dominion  sees  fit 
to  pay  that  money  to. 

So  there  you  have  a  conflict  of  legal  opinion,  and 
far  be  it  from  me,  a  farmer,  to  try  and  interject  any 
further  opinion  into  the  legal  controversy  of  this  kind. 

i83  ^  2-*22'-45«pb\irn  (Elgin) 

except  at  the  outset  I  feel  that  the  social  measures 
should  be  under  the  provincial  Jurisdiction^  but  at  the 
same  time  you  have  the  over-riding  authority  of  the 
Dominion  government  which  enables  them  to  legislate  for 
what  is  called  "in  the  best  interests  of  Canada  as 
a  whole.* 

I  have  listened  with  considerable  interest  to  the 
hono  Prime  Minister,   He  took  considerable  time,  and 
I  am  glad  he  did,  but  I  do  wish  he  had  bean  more  specific. 
He  wandered  all  around  the  lot,,  and  wa  could  not  find 
just  where  he  stood,  •▼en  after  he  had  talked  for  half  an 
hour , 

But  I  would  like  to  go   back  to  >  xS  apeach  of  the 
9th  of  AuguBt,   Among  hie  objections  ^e  pointed  out  that 
many  millions  of  dollars  from  the  pockets  of  the  people 
of  Ontario  would  go  to  the  good  people  cf  the  province  of 
Quebec,  under  this  measure » 

MR,  DRSW:  Mr,  Speaker,  I  have  been  asked  a  q^uestion, 
and  I  would  point  out  that  I  made  a  statement  to  this 
Legislature,  and  the  remarks,  under  the  rules,  must  be 
directed  to  that  statement.   As  I  say,  I  made  a  statement, 
and  I  believe  the  remarks  should  be  confined  to  that. 

MR.  SPEAKER:  I  want  to  extend  the  widest  possible 
latitute  to  hon.  members  of  this  House,  and  especially  to 
the  leaders  of  the  various  groups.   If  you  asked  me  for  my 
opinion,  I  would  say  that  this  diecuasioa  is  out  of  order. 
The  hone  Prime  Minister  asked  for  permission  to  make  a 
statement  in  the  public  interest,  and  he  has  done  that.  It 
is  not  debatable.  I  would  ask  the  hon.  members  from  now 
on  to  bear  in  miad  that  statements  such  as  this  are  not 
debatable o 

184  -  2-S2-45 

MToHepburn  (Elgin) 

MR.  HEPBURN  {Elgin]:  We  had  .no^in-ti0Bl;i.0B 
whatever  that  the  hon.  Prime  Mi.nister  was  going  to  talk 
half  an  hour  on  this  tiUestion,   ijn  I  privileged  to  go  on? 

MR.  SPEAKER:  I  am  very  happy  to  accord  you  the 
privilege,  but  I  wleh  to  warn  the  hon.  members  that  this 
eaanot  go  on  indefinitely^.  Tou  are  at  liberty  to  go  ahead 
and  complete  your  addrasa,  but  I  cannot  afford  this 
privilege  to  the  whole  House, 

MR.  A.B.  JOLLIFFE?  (Leader  of  the  OppoaitionJ:  Mr. 
Speaker,  I  would  like  to  sjjggsst  thfet  the  hon.  member  for 
Elgin  (MTo  Hepburni,  the  Lfiader  of   th«  Liberal  party,  be 
extended  the  courtesy  of  the  Honse  to  state  his  own  position 
with  respect  to  this  matteriv,  in  v-iev  of   tna  macnner  in  which 
it  has  been  raisedj,  and  tb.?  time  at  which  it  has  bean 
raised,  and  in  fu.rther  vIsk  of  the  Aioa,.  member*a  own  past 
connection  with  the  taatter., 

MR.  SPSAKEHj   Jba  the  hon-,  .Oieoibers  Js^now,  I  am  in 
no  position  to  do  that,  but  I  am  qaite  happy  to  accord  that 
privilege  to  the  hon.  member  for  iilgin  (Mte  Hepburn),  but 
hon«  members  must  realise  that  I  do  not  make  the  rules;  I 
simply  administer  theme  If  hon.  members  want  to  partici- 
pate in  these  discussions,  then  it  must  follow  a  motion  to 
adjourn  the  House,  ^here  is  no  adjournment  of  the  House 
moved,  and  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  sixapiy  asked  to  speak 
before  the  Orders  of  the  Day  were  called. 

MR.  DRiSW:  Since  the  remark  was  directed  to  me  ,Mr 
Speaker,  may  I  say  that  I  am  ralsiftj?  no  objection  to  the  hon. 
member  for  £lgin  (Mr,  Hepburn)  stating  his  position,  but  he 
is  attempting  to  state  my  position*   I  h&irQ   no  objection 
T7hatever  to  him  stating  his  position,  but  he  should  not 
attempt  to  state  mine. 

185  «  2-22-45 

Mr*  $p«akor 

MR.  HEB3URN  (Elgin)  :  MTo  Sp«akar,  I  am  only 
quoting  tha  words  of  th«  hono  Prim*  Minister  delivered 
over  a  national  hook-up  on  the  9th  of  August  last.  Hera 
la  a  Tory  pamphlet  which  was  broadcast  to  every 
individual,  and  is  in  the  hands  of  all  the  peopla  of 

I  am  asking  him  what  his  main  objection  is. 

ly|R*  DREW:  At  that  time  you  seemed  to  agree  with 
ma  — 

UR.  HEPBURN  (Elgin) i     I  do  not  think  you  are  vary 
happy  about  thiso   It  is  just  another  case  where  we  have 
the  hon«  Prime  Minister  in  a  corner. 

Is  your  objection  to  the  fact  that  many  millions 
of  dollars  from  the  pockets  of  the  people  of  Ontario  will 
go  to  the  people  of  Q,uebec5  under  this  neasure?   Do  you 
still  stand  on  that  position?   Those  are  your  own  words., 
spoken  over  the  radio,  and  printed  in  your  pampglet,   TO 
get  anything  definite  from  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  is  Ilka 
nailing  jelly  to  the  wallo 

MR.  DREW:   I  did  not  notice  the  hon.  mmbar  for 
Elgin  (Mro  Hepburn)  referring  to  Ontario  as  the  "milch  cow 
for  Canada. 

MR.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):  Mr*  Speaker,  I  am  not  thin 
sklzmad  at  all«   I  have  been  tossed  around  on  the  turbulent 
sea  of  politics  for  a  long  time,  but  I  will  not  allow  tha 
hon.  Prime  Minister  to  belittle  me  in  this  way,  and  I  aak, 
Ur*  Speaker,  that  the  hono  Prima  Minister  withdraw  that 

MR.  DREW:   What  remark? 

MR,  HEPBURN  (Elgin) :   The  fact  that  I  should  not 
be  taken  seriouslyo 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Orders  of  the  Day, 

186  «  2-22-45 

MTo  Hap burn  (Elgin) 

MRo  HEPBURN  (Blgln) :   I  am  asking  you  if  tha  hono 
gantleman  (tho  Prime  Kinistar)  is  in  ordar  in  saying  to 
this  House  that  I^  hava  had  tha  confidance  of  my 
elactors  for  ninetefen  yaars^  should  not  be  taken  serious- 
ly.    I  am  not  thin  skinned  — 

SOME  HONo  IffiaffiERSs  WithdraWo 

MRo   SPEAKER  i  Let  us  keep  our  haadso   I  extended 
the  hon.  raember  for  Elgin  (MTo  Hepburn)  the  privilege  of 
completing  his  statement .  but  this  is  getting  out  of  ordero 
Let  us  get  on  with  the  Orders  of  the  Dayo 

MRo  HEPBURN  (Elgin)  2  No^  Mr.,  Speaker,  I  i,vant  to 
ask  you  to  make  a  ruling  as  far  as  the  hono  Prime  Minister's 
remark  is  concerned,  whether  that  is  a  personal  reflection 
or  not  J  and  to  ask  you  to  direct  that  he  withdraw  it<,  You 
make  a  ruling  .   and  if  it  is  contrary  to  the  opinion  I  hold, 
I  7/111  have  to  asii  the  House  to  vote  on  ito 

MRo  E.BoJOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition):  Mr. 
Speaker,  may  I  speak  on  this  point  of  order?   While  I  do  not 
think  there  is  any  deep  point  of  constitutional  law  involved 
by  the  rules  of  this  House,   I  do  not  think  that  any  other 
hono  member  of  the  House  might  well  have  taken  exception  to 
what  the  houo  Prime  Minister  said,  and  I  think  that  the  hon. 
member  for  Elgin  (Mro  Hepburn)  is  within  his  rights  in  taking 
exception  to  what  the  |iono  Prime  Minister  has  said. 

After  allj,  other  people  have  been  checked  up,  and 
perhaps  some  of  them  properly  so,  if  they  cast  any  reflections 
•upon  other  houo  members,  and  in  this  instance  I  think,  Mr. 
Speaker,  that  the  ends  of  justice  might  well  be  served  if 
the  houo  Prime  Minister  would  see  his  way  clear  to  withdraw 
the  remark  which  was  mad©  about  an  hoUo  member  of  this  House, 

187  -  2-22-45 

Mr»  H«pburn  (Elgin) 

s«nt  h«r«  by  his  const ituents^  and  no  matter  how  much  we 
agree  or  disagree  with  him,  ha  is  entitled  to  a  certain 
modisun.  of  courtesyo   I  suggest  that  the  hon.  Prim*  Minister 
withdraw  the  remark,  and  I  suggest,  IvITo  Speaker,  that  you 
could  properly  rule,  if  he  does  not  do  so,  that  the  remark 
should  be  withdrawno   It  was  of  an  extremely  personal 
character;,  and  I  would  not  be  in  th*  least  surprised,  if  I 
made  such  a  statement  regardins  the  hono  Prime  Minister, that 
he  would  take  strong  exception  to  ito 

HONo  GEORGE  A  DRE^  (Prime  Minister)?  Mr,,  Speaker, 
since  it  has  reached  this  pointy  it  is  really  a  temptation  — 
I  cannot  help  smiling  when  I  think  of  the  words  and  epithets 
to  whj ch  this  Chamber  h&s  listened  at  other  timeso  I  wish 
Some  of  the  hon...  members  ^Axo   were  not  here,^  could  listen 
to  some  of  the  things  the  bono  member  for  Elgin  (MTo  Hepburn) 
has  thrown  around,, 

}rlRo  HEPBURN  (Elgi/n)  ;  Mr,,  iipeaker,,  I  do  not  want  to 
be  lectured  by  the  hon„  Prime  Minister o  I  am  asking  you  to 
make  a  definite  ru lingo 

MRo  SPEAKER:  Had  I  heard  anything  that  struck  me 
as  being  offensive,  I  would  have  ruled  it  out  of  order  without 
any  request  being  madeo   There  have  been  jocular  remarks  on 
both  sides  of  the  House,  and  a  certain  amount  of  laughter, 
but  I  rule  that  I  have  no  ri^t  to  ask  the  hono  Prime  Minister 
to  withdraw  the  remarko 

MR»  HEPBURN  (Elgin) i     Then  it  comes  back  to  the  old 
process  of  law,,  "When  you  have  no  case,  abuse  your  cliento" 
I  move,  Mro  Speaker,  that  the  hono  Prime  Minister  withdraw 
that  remarko 

MRo  DREIV^  This  is  simply  a  tempest  in  a  teapot. 
The  hono  member  for  Elgin  (Mro  Hepburn)  himself  made  a  remark 

-  188  »  2-22-45 

MTo  Drew 

which  I  should  have  asked  hla  to  withdraw. 

MRo  HEPBURN  (Elgin) ;   What  remark? 

MR,  DREWS  He  said  I  have  not  the  courage  to  do 
a  certain  thingo  However,  LtTo  Speaker,  if  he  is  so  thin 
skinned,  I  will  withdraw  the  remark  and  leave  it  to  his 
imagination  what  I  will  say  on  another  occasion. 

im.   HEPBURN  (Elgin);   I.  will  just  say  that  the  hono 
Prime  Minister  has  conducted  himself  in  his  usual 
gentlemanly  manner o 

MRo  SPEAKERS  Orders  of  the  Dayo 

MRo  AoAo  MacLBOD  (Bellwoods) s   Mr©  Speaker,  with 
your  indulgence  — 

MR.  SPEAKER:  The  hon,  member  for  Bellwoods  (Mr. 
MacLeod)  did  not  ask  for  permission  tc  raise  a  matter  before 
the  Orders  of  the  Day,  and  I  am  culling  the  Orders  of  the 

MRo  MaCoLEODi  Mr*  Speaker,  I  ask  yo\ar  indulgence. 
The  statement  made  by  the  hono  Prime  Minister  has  a  direct 
bearing  on  a  question  raised  by  me  a  few  days  ago  — 

MRo  SPEAKER:   I  am  sorry,  but  it  is  out  of  ordero 
questions  raised  before  the  Orders  of  the  Day  are  not 

MRo  MacLEOD:   This  is  a  matter  of  personal  privilege, 

MRo  SPEAKER:   I  have  ruled  that  you  are  out  of 
ordero  Take  your  seaty  p lease o 

MRo  MacLEOD g   I  am  sorry^  Mto  Speaker,  but  I  will 
have  to  challenge  that  rulingo 

MR.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):  Yesj  go  ahead  and  challenge 

MR.  SPEAKER?   Call  in  the  members o 

LIR.  EoB.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 

-    189  .-  2-22-45 

MTo   MacLeod 

This  is  an  appeal  frora  your  ruling  on  a  point  of  order. 
We  on  this  aide  of  the  Hou-J-e  would  like  to  knew  vftiat   the 
point  of  order  is,   and  what  the  bono  laejaber  was  attempting 
to  say. 

As  far  as   I  am  concerned,    I  heard  almost  nothing 
of  vjhat  he  was  trying  to  sayo      I  do  not  know  whether  he  was 
rising  on  a  point  of  priTilegSo      If  h©  was,   the  rules 
provide  it  should  be  taken  into   consideration  at  onceo 

MRo   SPEAKER:        That   is  not  the  point  at  alio      I 
made  a  ruling,    that  when  any  hon.,   mamber  comes  to  the 
Speaker  before  the  House  raeiets  and  asks  for  the  privilege 
of  raising  a  point  befcfore  the  Orders  cf  the  Day  to  discuss 
a  matter  of  public  importances  he  Is  grj?.nted  that  privilege, 
after  placing  his  application  in  vKfitingo        Then  he   is 
confined  to  making  that  statemento      If  he  directs  a  question 
to  an  hono   Ministers   he   in  enti1?iftd  to  an  answer „  but  it   is 
not  debatableo     The  hon.,   member  for  Bellwoods    (MroMacLeod) 
did  not  ask  the  privilege  to  raise  a  point  before  the  Orders 
of  the  Dayo     The  hono   Prime  Minister  did  so,  and  that  privi- 
lege has  been  accorded  to  him.       Now  the  hono   member  for 
Bellwoods   (MTo   MacLeod)  wants  to  speako      1  have  nothing  on 
the  agenda  to  show  that  he   wanted  to  speak  before  the  Orders 
of  the  Dayo       He  has  appealed  my  rulingo      Gall  in  the  members, 

MR.   ARTHUR  WILLIAMS    (Ontario):      ISTo   Speaker,    would 
you  accept  a  suggestipn,,    by  accepting  a  motion  for  an  adjourn- 
ment of  the  House  to  discuss  this  matter  of  major  public 
importanceo      If  you  agree  to  accept  such  a  motion,    I  shall 
be  happy  to  move  oneo 

MR.   3PEAKSR ;      I  am  sorryo        The  hono   member  for 
Bellwoods   (Mi'o   MacLeod)   has  appealed  my  ruling,    and   I  will 
ask  hii  at  the  proper  time  to  state  his  point  of  order o 

-  190  -  2-22~45 

MTo  Speaker 

We  will  go  on  with  one  thing  at  a  timeo 

MR,  H]iPBURN  (Elgin)  ;  Are  we  to  take  it  that  the 
procedure  in  this  HousOj  hereafter,  is  that  if  the  honoPrime 
Minister  projects  Into  the  debate  qodb  thing  of  a  highly 
controversial  nature,  no  other  members  are  permitted  to 
reply?  I, think  the  hon.  member  for  Bellwoods  (Mr,  MacLeod) 
should  be  permitted  to  make  his  statement,  because  he  raised 
the  question  two  days  agOc 

MRo  MacLEOD:  And  1  got  the  "'byush-off  >; " 
MRo  SPSAiCSRs   I  interpret  the  rules  as  I  read  them, 
My  understanding  is  that  when  an  hon.  member  asks  for  the 
privilege  of  rising  before  the  Orders  cf  the  Day;,  to  raise  a 
question  of  public  importances  wnatever  he  says„  or  whatever 
question  is  raised,  is  not  debatable,, 

ifflo  JOLLIFFEi  May  I  movej  as  a  loatter  of  courtesy, 
that  the  hono  member  for  Bellwooas  \llac.,   iioicLecd)  be  permitted 
to  speako   If  you  do  not  accept  my  motionj,  I  v/lll  have  only 
one  course  to  follow, 

MR,  SPEAKERS   I  expected  you  wculdo 
MR.  V/ILLIAIvIS:   That  is  uncalled  foro   You  may  be 
the  Speaker,  but  it  is  not  your  function  to  insult  people, 
im,   SPEAKER:   Nor  you,  eithero 
MRo  DREW  I      If  there  is  any  statement  that  will 
shorten  this,  I  for  one  am  raising  no  objection  to  hearing, 
with  the  consent  of  the  Leader  of  the  Opposition  (li,!Ir.  Joliiffe), 
the  hon,  rrember  for  Bellwoods  ^MTo  MacLeod),   If  you  approve, 
Mr,  Speaker,  I  am  agreeable  that  we  hear  his  statement.  All 
I  know  is  It  would  appear  some  question  was  being  raised 
about  something  which  was  asked  of  me^  and  which  i  answered. 
If  there  is  a  statement  to  be  inade,  I  shall  agree  with  the 
Leader  of  the  Opposition  — 

-   191  -  2-22-45 

Mr.   Spea.  -  r 

15-.    SPEAKER:      If  there   is   no  object!.  \  taken  by 
4  f.y  hoHo    Members  of  this  House,    I  accord  th  ■  hon. member 
TfiSr^Jiali .roods    (Mr.    I/iacLeod)    the  privilege   o  -  speaking. But 
I  //Ti'nt  to   say  again  that  I  do  not  write  theh'ules  of  the 

i3R.   HEPBURN   (Elgin)  :      1  understood  you  made  a 
ruling  v/'ljich  has  been  challenged.        You  should  call  In  the 
members.      The  hon.   Prime  Minister  was  out  of  order, 
because  once  the  division  bell  rings  no  member  is  permitt- 
ed to   speak,      1  am  simply  giving  you  a   little   lesson  in 
parliamentary  procedure, 

MR.    A. A.   MacLEOD   (Bellwoods) :      u.   Speaker,    I   felt 
that   I  .was  quite   in  order  in  rising  to   offer  a  comment  or 
two,    and   I  shall  be  very  brief,   on  the  remarks  made  by  the 
hon.   Primje  Minister j   because  what  ho  had  to  say  had  a  direct 
bearing  on  the  very  forth-right  and  simple   question  address- 
ed by  me  to  him  a  day  or  two  ago,    in  which   I  quoted 
paragraphs  from  his   speech  of  the   9th  of  August,    including 
that  portion  in  which  ho  said  that  the  Governmont  would  do 
everything  in  its  power  to  prevent  this  iniquitous  bill  from 
going  into  effect.        And  he  added  to  that,    that   the 
Government  would  not   concur   in  any  such  high-handed  action. 

My  question  is  as  follows: 

"Is  the  position  taken  by 
the  Premier  on  August  9th  still  the 
considered  policy  of  this  Government? 
If  so,   what  steps  has  the    Government 
taken,   or  what   stops  does  it   contem- 
plate taking  to   give  effect  to  that 
implied  threat?  And,   thirdly, 

would  the  Government   ask  this  Legis- 
lature to  concur  in  any  steps   it  has 
taken  or  contemplates  taking  in 
connection  with  his  statement  of 
August  gth?" 

I  submit,   Mr«   Speaker,   that  that  was  the  proper 

occasion  for  the  hon.   Prime  Minister  to  give  an  answer 



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*£r©iniii©voD   ad*  «>«i-  :;.i<^,.  ^  d^ariw   ,08  II 

-ct«;fjioo  i"!  eool)  eqei'B  tfailr  io   ,n©3iBt 

;^Bri;f  oi  #O0lla  ©ris  ci;f  3JiJ:2tB;f  ^i&lQ 

CiLbtlAi   ,£»aA  ?i'B9iri3'  ^aiXqarf 

-slsej  aixi^  3(8fi  ^xxaauiieviW  ed^  bLii<sm 

BBil  d"!   aqed-a  Y^fl  a.1  iifoaoo  oi^  ©hxJbX 

xil  "^lii^&t  ao;fAX(£ai0;fxioo  io  it©}{Ad- 

lo  <faecto;ffi*6  eid  il^iv  aoJLtoafxaoo 

laqoig  •il:^  bbw  ^sd;}-  tsd^   titaLeeqe   •nM   ^itJ^acfjjB  I 
*t9mma.m  ob  ©TJta  o;!'  led-elixJLU  eali^   *aod  ed^  lol  aoXeBooo 

-  192  «  2-28-45 

Mr.   IiuacLeocl 

to  tha'  question,  broken  into  three  parts.   Instead, 
he   gave  tob   the  "brush~off"  and  said  that  at  the 
appropriate  time  he  woxild  deal  with  this  iatter,  and 
he  intimated  he  would  make  his  contribution  through 
the  Throne  Speech  debate. 

Instead,  he  has  seized  upon  an  item  in  the  papers, 
which  most  of  us  have  not  seen,  and  has  used  that  as  an 
occasion  for  making  a  thirty-minute  oration. 

The  point  is  there  is  no  guarantee  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  will  not  use  up  an  equal  amount  of  time  every 
time  "family  allowances"  happens  to  be  referred  to  in  the 
press.  And  we  may  use  up  an  awful  lot  of  time  here.   I 
think,  therefore,  the  proper  course  for  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  to  pursue  in  line  with  what  he  said  on  the  9th 
of  August,  is  to  come  forward  like  a  man  with  a  resolu- 
tlon,  asking  this  Legislature  to  support  or  to  oppose  the 
position  ha  took  on  the  9th  of  August,  because  I  can  see 
BO  point  in  the  few  weeks  we  will  be  here,  in  having 
orations  by  the  hon«  Prii&eMinister  all  around  the  subject, 
and  preventing  the  Legislature  from  speaking  its  mind 
iq;>on  it  In  a  definitive  way^ 

I,   therefore,  hope  instead  of  subjecting  us  to  this 
barrage  of  words,  from  which  it  is  very  difficult  to 
distlAgulsh  any  clear  line  of  actiono  that  the  hon.  Prims 
Minister  make  up  his  mind  what  he  wants  the  Legislature  of 
tlie  Province  of  Ontario  to  do  on  this  question,  and  let  us 
dispose  of  it  once  and  for  alio 

If  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  will  face  the  result  of 
asking  this  House  to  concur  in  the  speech  he  made  on  the 
9tli  of  August,  very  well,  and  it  will  take  just  about  thirty 
Blnutes  to  dispose  of  that  and  that  particular  subject  will 

sex  - 

hoA  ^i^i&Bi  airi*  ii*xw  Xael)  biuov  erf  eaii*  oa-B.t'j'roiqqe 
xf8X/oiil;f  aoiiisdiiiaoo  aid  eaCAot  JbXixcw   ed  &«tA»u^;uA    c-ii 

.e^BCfei!)  ilo«eq&  efloxxfT  9di 

MM  BB  ^Bdf  b9WJ  Bfid  Dufl   ,cteee  #Oij  evari  bu  1q  d-aom  rfoJtrfw 
.nol^Bno  BtuaiM-y^tildt.  B  ^atjiBm.  lol  izolaAOoo 
ooLttc^  .xioxl  edt  AotaB-xBU^  on  &i  BiBdi  zt  iaioq,  eriT 
Yi«v»  tu&tt  Iv.  ^  »5i/pe  0B  qu  680  Joa  Iliw  rtotalatM 

I      •nail  Btutt  to  *oX  Lu'ina  na  <jy  aajj  ^aoi  mi  baX     .aaettq 

malifl  .rtorf  -        \^t.  aamoo  it  i3di   ^•to'i:e'x&dt   ,ialxll 

dtQ  Bdt  ao  ijiaa  ad  itadw  dtXw  asxi  al  atieii 

-0Xoaait  a  xltlw  aaa  a  aijtx  6tlbwio1  emoo  o#  bI   .^aimxii  to 

•iW  aeoqqo   o^  ^o  ^'•'— -a    o^   enr^fBl aiaaJ   eid^  suxjuea   ^iioiir 

•••  oao  I  aaxraoad   ^iBusuk  lo  dtfS  ad^  no  a{oo*  ad  aol^taoq 

aa-tTBd  ill   .a-xad  ad  XXiw  aw  aaCaav  wal  adt  0I  taloc  oa 

,to#t<J«e  «i*  &mro-xB  IXa  TcaJaialMaautrri  •nod  adj  xa   eiia-.jj6xo 

teiiii  cv^i  saiXaaqe  moi^  BiuimlBi^Bl  B&t  sn^^raaraxq  tea 

«>tMr  vrtitait\9b  b  al  tt  ao<p7 
aixl^  o#  s>ii  -^xitoBiduB  lo  l>£a#eai  aqod  ,a70ta*xad;^  ,1 

ot  tluQiWib  xaav  ai  ^1  daldv  aiorzl  ,aJ^YOir  lo  m^mvJMd 
mUnfi  ,uod  Bdt  tadt  oaoitcB  Ic  mil  Taeto  vcb  deiaaHltaib 
to  a'xt/^AlaisoJ  Bdt  a^caw  axi  crj^ux;  ^i 

80  #aX  JbiiB  ,«ol#aairp  ald^  no  oib  o4^  oliBtaO  to  aoAlror?  ad^ 

.ri5   Tc'^t  fcaa  aocto  ti   to  Bsoqnrh 

to  #Xi/8a«(  ad:'  eaxxi   <,aoii  axiff   ix 

•d#  flo  BbBO.  ed  doaaqa  e  ot  bwukM  aid#  silUab 

t*TUd#-  ^xroda  tBUl  B:iBt  Xliw  Jl   Jbns   .IXsw  vrrav   ,*BimyA  to  if*« 

XXlw  toB^doB  iBlaoltiBq,  d'Biiw    jKiB     JBCJ"  lo  eaoqeinD  oo^  aa^iuxxa 

193  «  2~22-45 

Mr* MacLeod 

be  off  the  agenda  for  all  tlmeo 

I  don't  know  -«  I  question  in  ray  own  laindj, 
although  I  do  not  want  to  impute  any  ulterior  motives, 
but  there  was  something  more  than  the  long  arm  of 
coincidence  in  the  fact  that  this  particular  day  was 
chosen  to  get  that  into  the  record  of  this  Assembly 
and  into  the  press 5  because  the  Leader  of  the  Opposition 
(MTo  Jolliffe)  was  scheduled  to  open  his  debate  on  the 
Throne  Speech  to-day,  and  I  cannot  help  but  wonder 
whether  or  not  these  thirty  minutes  taken  up  with  that 
customary  and  characteristic  oratory  of  the  hon^  Prime 
Minister  was  not  calculated  to  deprive  the  hon.  Leader 
of  the  Opposition  (MTo  Jolliffe)  of  the  right  to  make 
his  contribution  to  the  debateo 

MRo  SPEAKER:  Orders  of  the  Day^ 

HONo  GEORGS  Ai  DREW  (Prime  Minister);  Order  NOolo 

THE  CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE i  First  order:  resuming 
the  adjourned  debate  on  the  motion  for  the  consideration 
of  The  Honourable  the  Lieutenant  Governor  at  the  opening 
of  the  sessiono 

IRo  EDWARB  Bo  fOlLIFIB  (Leader  of  the  Opposition) s 
Mro  Speaker,  I  wish,  first  of  all  to  felicitate  the  hon« 
members  who  moved  and  seconded  the  address  in  reply  to 
the  Speech  from  the  Throneo   I  can  truthfully  say  to  them 
that  although  there  was  a  great  deal  in  their  speeches  with 
which  I  could  not  agree ^  I  recognized  the  honour  which  was 
conferred  upon  them  ija  being  placed  first  and  second  in 
this  debate* 

Mro  Speaker,  it  is  probably  unnecessary  for  me  to 
remind  the  House  that  we  are  meeting  this  year  under 
circiomstances  very  different  from  those  of  a  year  agOo 

AJUi^iir    ii. 

t'«  JTBq  aixit  tatLt  a  doact 

Qtsd9b  b&tsr- 




■  cr?, ,  .L&'xei. 

•    -   194  -  £-22-45 

Mr.  MacLeod. 

The  wbole  international  setting  for  the  work  of  this 
Legislature  and  the  work  of  the   other  provincial 
Legislatures  which  are  meeting  at  this  time  is  very  differ* 
ent  from  what  it  was  in  Fehruary  of  1944. 

It   so   happened  that   the  first 
session  of  this  Legislature  was  opened  by  His  Honour  the 
Lieutenant  Governor  one  year  ago  to-day.       And  it  may 
interest  the  House  to  be  remined  what  the   position  was  one 
year  ago  to-day  throughout  the  world,  or  in  those  parts  of 
the  world  where  the   present   conflict  is   being  decided. 

A  year  ago  to-day,  Mr.  Speaker,  General  MacArthur's 
forces  were   still  fighting  over   fifteen  hundred  miles  east 
of  the  Philippine  Islands.     To-day  they  occupy  Manila,  and 
to-day  other  American  forces  are  fighting  within  750  miles 
of  the  heart  of  Japan. 

A  year  ago  to-day,  Mr.   Speaker,   the  German  armies 
were   still  arrayed  along  the  lower  reaches  of  the  Dnieper 

A  year  ago  to-day  the  Russians  were  taking  Krivoi 
Rog  and  Vitebsk,   and  were  engaged  in  driving  Hitler's  forces 
away  from  the  immediate  vicinity  of  Leningrad.       To-day  they 
are   battering  at  the  gates  of  Berlin.       They  have  come  many 
hundreds  of  miles   since  a  year  ago,   inspired  by  their  deter- 
mination to  conclude  this  struggle,   and  conclude  it   soon,   and 
led  by  gallant  soldiers,  such  as  our  distinguished  guest  who 
was  with  us  to-day. 

A  year  ago  to-day,  Mr.   Speaker,   our  Canadian  troops 
were  still  fighting  in  Southern  Italy.     Their  allies  were 
stopped   at  Cassino.  Our  other  portions  of  the  army  were 

still  in  England,   and  the   date  of   "D-Day"  was  one  of  the 
world's  best  kept   secrets.     To-day,   the  Canadian  troops 
who  ytetfe  in  England  a  year  ago  to-day  are  on  the  banks  of  the 

^  "*■■'     nM 

iB id :  ^■> -.'t.q  i^Aio   0tii  1:0  3(iow  exil  tna  e^wlaXaiseJ 
•nalllf)  xiey  el  emii   eixl;t  ;fB  f^ii«em  eriB  doidw  8«ii;^Blei8«J 

•  J^i^er  lo  x^BirvSe^  al  8«w  Ji  ^ariw  moat  ine 

?  vwiU'   t-diieqqaiJ  oe   &J 

e.  o  8fiw  erci;;tBi8iseJ  elxi^  lo  aolease 

Xfifli  .xAfi^o^   ogB  i«»x  000  aoaievoO  ^oBaecfifeLI 

•no  e£w  i<      <    '        g|j;^  (^atiw  Xtenlioei  ed  o^  eax;oH  ad^  ^8eie;tnl 

lo  Biiaq   eeon:  row  edt  iuoA^uoiiii  XBb-oi  ogfl  "laex 

bsfclnof-  34nl©c!   el  talXlnoo   ^neeeaq  ed^  easxfw  fcliow  erl^t 

e'Txiflj-iAce  vBfc-o*'03B  naex  A 

J8»e  aelJlm  t»©'j  oseJlll   aevo  aflj;;frisil  IIl;ta  ©Tew  •eoiol 

ban  .t^l Inf}*  w  "Sfc-oT     .efcnslel  en laq  111x1*1  edct  lo 

.flsqBt  ^8d  edJ  lo 

aeqs-        ^  aenoBeu  Tewoi  ed^  snoia  dsxhtib  iliiB   eaew 


}arltli  \ini-^ES  eiew  BnBlseijfl  eitf^  XBb-oi  oae  isey  A 

afe;,  DagBSjae  9Tbw   j:iufl    «iiea«;tlV  iiinB  j^un 

XG.  roinej  lo  x^lciolY  e^Blfifeimnl  edi  mofi  \bmib 

nr'n   S:i  .T        .nliiseio  8e*es  eri*  *b  sinlteJJed  qib 

isex  B  eonle   eeiic  t.x 

fcne    ,nooi:  '    , elssi^'i^c  eJUl*  ebtiXonoo  of  aolitnaisj 

odw  ^eetfSi  6»£.  -   2£  rfouE  ,ert6lliIoe   tfnBllB5i  vri   bsl 

eqoo^^  aeibsi^  o   «ie2l8eq8   .iM  ,-<jBl>-oct  ogfi  laex;  A 

err**''    '«»  lieriT      .y-Tb^I  ni©ri;tifnr.  nl  sn  IdrJsll   IJl^te   eisw 

e^«w  xttiB  &£iS  lo  enolJioq  asxitfo  zuo  .ouxeeau  jb  ceqqoje 

©ri*  lo  Biio  BBw  ""^Ba-cr  lo  Biet  edi  baa  ,l>nfll8fi:  Ii;ta 

pr,.---^    -t.fbBnaO  ©ri*    ,X6fc-oT      .ecteiose    tciaTl   ctesd   e'Jbliow 

eri:}-  lo  asififc  no  otb   Yfll>-o;t  ogs  tb©x  ^  i)iiflianci  ni  ©aew  oxiw 

-195  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

Rhine  and  we  are  confident  the  day  is  soon  drawing  near 

when  the  struggle  in  which  they  have  played  such  an  important 

part  will  be  successfully  concluded. 

I  wish  to  say  in  all  humility  that  great  credit 
is  due  to  the  fighting  men  of  all  our  allies  of  this  country. 
I  thinlc  we  can  take  particular  credit  or  particular  pride  in 
the  accomplishments  of  those  from  our  own  country  of  Canada. 
We  can  think  of  the  aontribUtions  made  by  the  men  in  the 
Royal  Canadian  Air  Force  since  the  early  months  of  the  war, 
and  their  very  great  sacrifices. 

I  hope  we  shall  not  forget,  either,  the  work  done 
by  the  Royal  Canadian  Navy,  with  perhaps  less  publicity 
than  has  been  accorded  the  other  services,  in  convoying  so 
many  thousands  of  ships  across  the  Atlantic,  and  accepting 
such  very  great  responsibilities,  which  otherwise  would 
have  been  thrown  upon  the  British  and  American  navies. 

And  the  men  of  our  armies:   however  much  they 
may  have,  sometimes,  become  the  subject  of  political  contro- 
versy, the  men  of  our  army  since  the  invasion  of  Italy  and 
since  "D-Day"  have  cei'tainly  shown  that  the  confidence  placed 
in  them  was  fully  Justified.   We  have  felt  that  the  confidence 
reposed  in  them  by  the  people  of  this  country  was  well  merited, 
and  I  may  add  it  proves  that  there  was  nothing  fundamentally 
wrong  with  those  many  thousands  of  men, who,  before  this  war, 
could  not  even  get  a  Job.   There  is  nothing  very  much  wrong 
with  men  like  "Smoky"  Smith,  V.C,  now  one  of  the  heroes  of 
our  army.   A  few  years  ago  he  was  one  of  the  unemployed. 

I  am  filled  with  regret,  when  I  say  that  unfortu- 
nately many  of  us  cannot  feel  the  same  confidence  in  the 
rulers  of  the  fighting  men  of  the  United  Nations,  as  they  do 
in  the  fighting  men  themselves.    The  last  war  was  won 

.bebulonoo  xlltrleeeoo.  iw  c^ieq 

T.utl    11 B  nt  Tfls    o^  Azti^    T 
•  VI'  :ea3  jjuXJilall  edcf 

.1- .:---'  i3Sorf3-   *fn    p. rtnp.'nrfa  I  Tqaooofi    '■'■i"  ' 

.j£i  BaoX3;;(3XiJnos   a^: 
afi6  Qdi  eoale  aooc 

a   (Jesiol   ^OD   Ilfide  8w  - 

xl^lw  ,xtbM  xuibfiaBO  Ifiyofl  en 

.'ricfo   ei!;t    *-^  ^^    . 

\  .^;r  eeoioa  eqiiie  lo  ef>nfl? 
.:w  ,8eliliWIenoqeen   SBe 
^   „^^...iH  8j1v    — ^. 
reelflOB  iifo  lo  nasi  e: 
a   arl;^  eaooed   «»M(ii 

-■"■•"  ed^  \w  . 

lolad  .    to  BbnBBL  iBm  &• 

.dot   B   ^»3  "•'■ 

.bf  9ri   ogs  eaBsx  vet   A 

©■  sfluse   exi^   i©el   *oma 

cb  yerit  b»   ,Bnol.tjsPr  bscTlaU  eri^t  lo  aea  s^li'dall   f 

-  196  -         2-22-45 

Mr.  JolLiffe 

t>y  the  fighting  men,  and  then  the  peace  was  lost  by  their 
leaders.   We  all  hope  that  is  not  going  to  happen  again, 
but  I  fear  we  shall  be  disappointed  in  that,  unless  the 
aspirations  of  the  common  people  are  better  recognized,  and 
unless  the  smaller  nations,  as  well  as  great  powers,  have  a 
real  voice  in  the  settlement , now,  and  at  the  conclusion  of 
this  war« 

It  is  perfectly  obviouc  that  as  the  end  of  the  war 
draws  nearer  --  and  it  is  drawing  nearer  -<=  the  responsibili- 
ties of  this  province,  of  this  Government  and  of  this  Legis- 
lature are  becoming  much  greater.   We  now  face  the  probabili- 
ty of  the  end  of  the  war  in  Europe  before  there  is  any 
Dominion-Provincial  Conference.   I  think:  I  should  make  it 
perfectly  clear  that  for  a  long  time  the  C.C.F,  members  of 
the  Legislature  in  six  other  provinces  hare  asserted  ,  the 
need  for  a  Dominion-Provincial  Conference  to  consider  and  re- 
consider the  postwar  future  of  this  country,  but  to  arrive 
at  an  appropriate  division  of  responsibility  of  planning 
between  the  federal  and  provincial  authorities.  And  we  are 
now  obliged  to  assume,  as  a  result  of  developments  in  recent 
months  -»  and  we  may  as  well  be  realistic  and  assume  there  is 
not  lilcsly  to  be  a  Dominion-Provincial  Conference  before  the 
conclusion  of  the  war  in  Europe.   I  reiterate  the  suggestion 
we  have  made  as  a  suggestion  which  was  made  officially  on 
behalf  of  the  Co-operative  Commonwealth  Federation  in  Ottawa 
on  the  1st  day  of  September,  1944,  and  the  suggestion 
made  yesterday  in  the  Saslsatchewan  Legislature  by  the  Hon. 
Mr.  Douglas  --  I  reiterate  the  suggestion  that,  notwithstand- 
ing any  differences  there  may  be  between  the  right  hon. 
Prime  Minister  of  this  Dominion  and  the  hon.  premiers  of  the 


-  197  °  2-22»45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

provinces  --  that  an  attempt  should  be  made  without  further 
delay  to  hold  a  Dominion-Provincial  Conference.  However, 
I  recognize  that  the  facts  being  what  they  are,  it  is  not 
likely  to  take  place,  and  I  am,  therefore,  bound  to  point 
out  that  the  present  powers  and  responsibilities  of  the 
provincial  governments  and  the  legislatures  are  likely  to 
be,  when  the  war  ends  in  Europe,  exactly  as  they  are  to-day, 
because  there  will  have  been  no  agreement  reached  or  any 
change,  or  any  redirection  in  the  financial  or  other  relation- 
ships between  the  provinces  and  the  Dominion. 

I  am  also  bound  to  point  out  that  the  powers  and 
rewponsibilities  of  this  province  are  the  same  to-day  as  they 
were  in  the  month  of  July,  1943,  when  the  political  parties 
represented  in  this  House  were  all  presenting  their  arguments 
to  the  people  of  Ontario. 

There  is  not  going  to  be  any  change  in  the  situa- 
tion unless  and  until  the  war  ends,  and  the  War  Measures  Act 
becomes  inoperative,  I  assume,  by  proclamation,  that  a  state 
of  war  no  longer  exists,  in  which  event  we  would  probably 
revert  to  the  position  before  the  war  --  at  least,  we  should 
revert  to  the  position  before  the  war  constitutionally;  T 
hope  and  trust  that  we  will  not  revert  to  the  position  before 
the  war  economically  and  socially. 

And  in  that  event,  Mr.  Speaker,  if  the  war  were  to 
come  to  a  complete  end  and  the  War  Measures  Act  ceases  to  be 
operative,  then  I  say  that  not  only  the  powers  of  this 
province,  but  also  its  obligations  will  become  much  greater. 

I  sometimes  wonder  when  members  of  the  Government 
have  spoken  about  recovering  the  taxation  powers  they  have 
given  to  the  Dominion,  for  the  duration  -«■  I  sometimes  wonder 

-  198  -  2-22-45 

Mi".  Jolliffe 

if  they  also  stop  to  consider  that  with  the  return  of 
those  taxation  powers,  they  are  likely  to  get  bacfc  some 
very  substantial  responsibilities  they  do  not  have  to  bear 

And  further,  Mr.  Speaker,  as  I  have  already  pointed 
out,  the  present  position  will  continue  to  be  the  same  fol- 
lowing the  end  of  the  war  unless  and  until  a  Dominion^ 
Provincial  Conference  arrives  at  a  new  division  of  our 
responsibilities,  subject  to  approval  by  legislation. 

In  most  of  the  discussions  about  this  (iuestion,  I 
think  there  has  been  a  tendency  to  lose  sight  of  the  fact, 
that  the  government  are  entirely  subject  to  legislation* 
If  there  was  an  agreement  made  between  the  provinces  and  the 
dominion,  we  would  expect  —  and  I  have  no  doubt  the  govern- 
ment would  expect  —  to  come  back  to  this  Legislature  for  the 
proper  ratification.  There  would  have  to  be  legislation 
passed  through  this  House,  and  also  through  the  Dominion 

It  is  ecjually  true ,,  Mr,  Speaker,  that  this 
Legislature  is  entitled  to  hear  from  the  Government  what  will 
be  the  policy  of  the  Ontario  Government  if,  as  and  when  the 
opportunity  arises  to  represent  this  province  at  a  Dominion- 
Provincial  Conference.   If  there  is  any  policy  so  far, 
it  is  shrouded  in  mystery,  and  I  siiggest  one  of  the  major 
responsibilities  of  the  Government  at  this  session  is  to 
give  a  full  and  clear  accaount  to  this  Legislature  of  what 
policy  the  Government  proposes  to  take  to  a  Dominion- 
Provincial  Conference.  Let  them  learn  from  the  hon.  members 
of  this  House,  whether  our  views  are  the  same  or  different, 
and  further,  Mr.  Speaker,  throughout  this  whole  controversy 
it  is  just  as  well  to  bear  in  mind  that  all  the  blame  is  not 
on  one  side  by  any  means. 

We  believe  the  right  hon.  Prime  Minister  of  Canada 
to  be  wrong  in  refusing  to  call  a  conference  at  this  time. 

-  199  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jollifle 

on  one  side  by  any  means. 

We   believe  the  right  hon. Prime  Minister  oX  Canada 
to  be  wrong  in  refusing  to  call  a  conference  at  this  time. 
Nevertheless,  I  must  say  that  some  of  the  pronouncements 
by  some  of  the  provincial  governments  have  not  assisted  in 
bringing  the  conference  any  nearer,  and  I  say  here  that 
although  the  conference  ought  to  be  held,  it  is  very  unlike- 
ly to  success,  if  it  is  going  to  be  used  as  a  kind  of 
political  public  address  system,  whereby  rising  politicians 
can  address  their  remarks  to  the  vshole  nation. 

Now,  Mro  Speaker,  the  question  of  "family  allow- 
ances'^, which  is  one  the  Government  desires  to  place  on  the 
agenda  of  any  Dominion- Provincial  Conference,  is  a  question 
which  has  a  historyo   Members  of  the  Government  are  per- 
fectly entitled  to  hold  the  opinion  that  it  is  beyond  the 
constitutional  power  of  the  Dominion  to  pass  family  allow- 
ance legislation*   .Veil, they  are  perfectly  entitled  to  make 
the  strongest  representations  on  that  point  to  the  Dominion 
Government,  and  while  they  are  even  entitled  to  carry  the 
matter  further  and  take  it  to  the  courts,  if  they  so  desire, 
the  fact  remains  and  it  is  a  fact  that  the  Parliament  of  this 
country  has  placed  family  allowance  legislation  on  the  statute 
books,  and  did  it  \manimously,  with  the  concurrence  of  all 

Now,  I  do  not  wish  to  be  misunderstood.   It  is 
also  a  fact  that  there  was  much  criticism  of  the  bill  while 
it  was  passing  through  the  Dominion  House,  and,  indeed,  it 
was  not  accepted  by  the  members  of  the  party  with  which  1  am 
identified  as  a  thing  of  perfection.  Far  from  it.   There 
were  many  suggestions  for  changes  to  be  mada,  and  in  some 

-  200  -  £-22-45 


particulars  we  tho\ight  the  bill  to  be  defective. 

However,  notwithstanding  those  objections,  the 
bill  was  carried  through  Parliament.  It  is  on  the  statute 
books;  it  is  to  take  effect  July  1st,  and  the  federal 
minister  has  announced  that  payments  are  to  commence  in 
the  month  of  July,  and  it  is  one  thing  to  say  that  we  ought 
to  have  been  consulted  about  this,  we  ought  to  have  had  a 
voice  ia  framing  this  legislation,  and  in  carrying  out  its 
administration  —  that  is  one  thing;  it  is  an  entirely 
different  thing,  as  the  legislation  becomes  an  accomplished 
fact, or  after  it  has  become  an  accomplished  fact,  to  say, 
»We  propose  to  reist  this  measure  by  every  means  within 
our  power,"  or  words  to  that  effect.   That  is  an  entirely 
different  matter.   And  the  point  of  constitutional  law 
Involved  is  a  matter  on  which  there  is  divided  opinion. 

The  end  of  the  war  is  approaching,  and  whether  the 
bill  relates  mainly  to  social  service,  or  mainly  to  federal 
fiscal  policy,  the  fact  remains  that  it  is  on  the  statute 
books,  and  I  assume  that  the  families  of  this  province  will 
commence  to  receive  their  allowances  in  the  month  of  July, 
and  I  further  assume  that  the  Government  of  the  province  of 
Ontario  will  not  attempt  to  intercept  remittance  of  this 
allowance  by  people  who  expect  to  receive  it. 

Mr,  Speaker,  the  present  Government  have  had  some- 
thing to  say  to-day  about  the  family  allowances  question, but 
they  did  not,  as  far  as  I  can  recall,  say  anything  about  it 
in  their  programme  of  July,  1943,  although  we  are  now  told 
here  it  is  a  provincial  responsibility,  that  it  is  a  matter 
of  very  great  importance  that  it  should  be  integrated  with 
comprehensive  arrangements  for  social  security,  and  that  many 
of  these  are  within  the  provincial  urisdiction.   I  recall 

-  201  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

hearing  nothiag  said  about  this  all-important  matter 
in  July  of  1943. 

However,  the  Conservative  programme  of  that  year 
was  very  definite  on  many  points.  It  was  very  definite 
on  at  least  twenty- two  points,  of  which  the  Family 
Allowances  was  not  one. 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  oar  attitude  to  the  position 
of  the  Government  is  fundamentally  the  same  as  it  was 
a  year  ago.  The  circumstances  miay  be  somewhat  different, 
but  our  attitude  is  fundamentally  the  same.  nYe  are 
prepared,  in  this  House,  to  support  forward  steps,  ii^e 
will  oppose  others,  regardless  of  the  consequences.  We 
shall  most  certainly  oppose  any  reconfirmation  of  the 
principle  that  the  Government  of  Ontario,  at  this  juncture 
shoiSLld  use  every  means  in  its  power  to  resist  the 
carrying  into  effect  of  the  Federal  Family  Allowances 
Act.  What  we  are  even  more  concerned  about  is  that  the 
Government  should  implement  those  promises  which  the 
electors  had  a  right  to  expect  would  be  implemented  and 
which  represented  a  progressive,  forward  step,  and  for 
which  the  people  of  this  province  were  asking.  I  have 
no  doubt,  whatever,  that  having  been  in  office  for  over 
eighteen  months  the  Government  can  claim  to  have  done 
something  with  relation  to  each  of  every  one  of  the 
twenty-two  points,  -  some  things  trivial,  and  some  import- 
ant, -  but  the  undertakings  given  must  be  reviewed  as  they 
were  made  and  as  they  were  clearly  and  plainly  stated  to 
the  people  of  Ontario. 

If  the  Government  were  frank  enough  at  this  time, 
or  cared  at  this  time  to  admit  some  of  their  failures, 
then,  1  think,  much  might  be  forgiven  them.  Instead  of 

-  202  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

that,  I  regret  to  find  them  gol]^  about  the  province 
boasting  that  they  have  kept  all  of  their  promises,  - 
all  of  them,  -  and,  of  course,  their  adolatrous  admirers 
of  the  Press,  of  whom  there  are  a  number  «k»  slag  the 
same  tune  and  taUc  liosely  and  recklessly  and  shameless- 
ly about  all  the  twenty-two  points  having  been  implement- 
ed,Now,  Mr»  Speaker,  I  am  afraid  that  there  somes  a 
time  when  we  ;)ust  have  to  call  a  halt,  and  some  of 
these  pretensions  must  be  exposed.  I  must  say  I  regard 
myself  as  a  member  of  a  team  in  this  opposition  group. 
I  do  not  pretend  to  be  able  to  review  or  to  even  stiggest 
a  small  part  of  the  great  gaps  in  the  Government's 
records  which  might  well  be  exposed  to  the  House,  but 
other  members  of  this  group  will  be  speaking  in  the 
course  of  this  debate,  and  I  am  certain  they  will  place 
before  the  Legislat\ire  many  matters  quite  as  important 
as  anything  I  may  mention  here  to-day. 

Mr.  Speaker,  one  of  the  most  significant  things 
about  the  twenty-two  points  was  that  in  general  they 
were  of  a  progressive  character*  Now,  that  was  not  sur- 
prising to  me,  not  in  the  least,  because  it  had  become 
perfectly  clear  that  the  whole  world  was  moving  in  a 
progressive  direction.  The  people  of  the  democratic 
morld,  at  least,  were  expressing  in  many  different  ways 
their  desire  for  social  security,  for  social  change  on 
a  basis  of  justice,  and  I  think  the  temper  of  the  people 
in  Ontario  was  plain  enough  to  the  Leader  of  the  Progres- 
sive Conservative  Party  in  Ontario  and  to  other  parties 
at  that  time,  hut  it  was  not  necessary  for  me  to  warn 
the  people  of  Ontario,  as  I  did,  -  and  many  others  in  the 
C»C.F.  did,  -  that  because  a  party  takes  on  a  progressive 


^i»  a4v  '    ,  Bee 

•■5aoI,.'xa«iie    '""  '-^^  o^l  ai,.;  ,.„    ^aa   -=>*" 

■Jcsflifliqaji  fit'  owi-ntiaew;^   edi  lis   is. 

3    9«tr  .    ,ioiBO(iQ   *iU   ,woH.Ji9 

.-    dVBri  ;tai  "'•'^>'   '•"/■^ 

jm  nmo tea^i 
^-A6i  B  Ic  i9(imtac 

^v       ■*    ,  -1  rs 

9W  ;fft 



il)     I    8jB    ^OllB 

-  203  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

Hame,  or  adopts  more  progressive  language,  in  harmony 
with  the  times,  it  does  not  necessarily  follow  that  they 
have  changed  their  philosophy  or  that  their  objects  are 
really  any  different.  I  want  to  say  what  I  am  about  to 
say  is  not  going  to  be  a  tirade  about  broken  promises  in 
the  old-fashioned  political  way.  I  think  the  time  has 
come  when  we  can  out-grow  that  kind  of  thing.  But  the 
point  is  that  the  election  in  1943  in  Ontario  was  no 
ordinary  election,  I  believe  the  people  of  this  province 
expected  the  Government  elected  in  1943  to  take  office 
and  to  hold  off f ice  during  the  post-war  crisis  and  to  deal, 
or  attempt  to  deal,  with  the  tremendous  problems  which 
are  going  to  confront  our  people  in  that  all-important 
period,  and  for  that  reason  I  think  the  people  of  Ontario 
took  very  seriously  the  pledges  which  were  given  at  that 
time  by  the  Progressive-Conservative  Party,  by  the  CO, P. 
and  by  the  Liberal  Party»  They  expected  to  elect  a 
Government  which  would  take  action,  and  that  action  must 
be  taken  if  we  are  to  keep  faith  with  the  people  of 

It  will  be  remembered,  Bfir,  Speaker,  the  very  first 
of  the  twenty-two  points  was  with  reference  to  British 
institutions  andBritish  partnership.   The  Conservative 
Party  pledged  itself  to  do  all  in  its  power  to  maintain 
British  institutions  and  strengthen  British  partnership 
as  the  best  guarantee  of  Canada's  spiritual  and  material 
welfare.   Now,  to-day  the  Government  points  to  the  re- 
opening of  Ontario  House  as  evidence  that  this  promise  is 
being  fulfilled.  I  want  to  be  fair,  and  I  wish  to  tell 
the  House,  according  to  my  info mat ion,  Ontario  House 
is  rendering  good  service  to  Canadian  Servicemen  in  i^ngland. 
I  say  it  is  rendering  "good  service  to  Canadian  Servicemen" 

>-  r      a,,  f  . 

sna   3;to.'  «(i,t  to   vrlqosofirig   7leH[:j 



nan      1 

J  a 

Sjbaii^    B 



'Cflff   LmoI^ 


•■  ■  ■^ 

tariJ  wc 




;  •f' 


-  aaa.  ajao^einaT^   »di  r 

'  '^   iuAi   nl    e- 

"lew  dolriw  8«3i^ej  scfol- 

-!T    '•-.'.?  jb  vie-" 

a  *«ii*  lata  ^mol' 

t^  -MI      ri 

tR-  «T  »c  .-rii    .jbftio.dinefT'i!"!:   ed     .  •'■■    ^: 

©TiJavTi  sail;.  ifi   ajffolJ^ 

alii  iaj#*i:[iqa  a'a^aaaO  io   ©a^aa-iaue 
-it    B^/iioq    ^Hiicuaci;.  .OTsl/ft- 

^  ...    da«aX>lve  aa  ^^ 

-  "lajtw  I  iiiia    ,ilsl   ad   oJ  J-jisw  baXIi') 

i*2  HBlXia«a-  ..!-.. 

.i  caiDiiiiaO  oi^   oolvnee  ^og^   sal': 

-  204  -  Z^ZZ-^d 


who  find  themselves  in  London  from  time  to  time,  and  I 
am  very  glad  it  is  there  for  that  reason,  if  for  no 
other.  I  might  say,  however,  I  have  not  yet  heard  of  this 
point  from  the  hon.  member  for  Hiverdale  (Hr.Wlsmer}  or 
West  York  (Mr.  Mi  Hard  1,  who  are  in  England  at  the  moment, 
and  it  may  be  they  will  be  able  to  inform  the  House  more 
fully  on  their  return,  which  I  hope  aad  trust  will  be 

I  cannot  say  we  would  approve  of  all  the  somewhat 
extravagant  statements  regarding  the  future  of  Ontario 
which  appeard  to  have  been  issued  from  Ontario  House,  or 
from  within  its  doors,  but,  in  spite  of  ftll  those 
eztravasant  statements,  -about  tan  million  or  twenty- 
five  million  or  fifty  million,  whatever  it  is  that 
we  expeot  to  reoeive  in  this  province,  in  spite  of 
those  extravagant  statements,  1  thinJc  Ontario  House 
is  doiBg  a  good  Job  at  the  present  time.   But  the 
promise  was  much  more  than  to  re-open  Ontario  House. 
There  was  a  reference  to  j^itish  institutions,  whioh 
particularly  interests  me.  It  seems  to  me,  Mr,  Speaker, 
there  is  much  more  to  British  institutions  than  a  flag 
or  an  anthem  or  the  opening  of  Ontario  House  > 
much  more  to  it  than  that,  I  had  the  privilege  of 
spending  some  years  in  Qreat  Britain,  and  I  had,  in 
particular,  the  privilege  of  rather  elose  assooiatiom 
with  two  or  three  very  characteristic  British  institu- 
tions, -  very  happy  years  they  were,  too,  -  and  I 
think  I  can  claim  to  know  something  about  British  insti- 
tutions,  What  most  impressed  my  mind  was  this,  that 
there  are  certain  institutions  reopgnized, consciously 
or  unconsciously,  by  the  majority  of  the  people  in  that 
country,  and  I  might  describe  them  in  this  way;   first 

.>;* ' 

-io   (iflmelir.iSC}   •l£X;i9Vifi  iq1  'xtdm*ffl  .nod  9At  iaoil  tfllotx 

,;fi3eju:    u  ^    bMBl»B3.  at   BIB  odw   .(JbialltM  ♦•dd)   attoY  i^^-^' 

ma   aqc  )ldw  .aix/tfai  iledi  no  xilsil 

•  sooa 

o^iB^r.  i.   0d#  gfiil>iBS«i  Bitxaat^BSfa  rcBaATSl^Zft 

fo   « 900011  ©liai"*"   — **    'jaxreaJ:  aMd   tY«d  oJ  j:>i*»qqji  doxay 
••«dl#  XX«  xo  MTiga  al  ,^£rd  ^tiioot  nil  Mldtlw  aoii 
-v^fAtir^  lo  coiXXiA  «*^  ^tfodB-   ,i^sMit;r«^8  iRB^trnttxt 

.OOfllTCiq    Sldi^   Al    •TlBOBl    Oi'    ^O0q[Xa    •«- 

-rBtirO  tmlAi   I  «B^atm*lB^B  ICB9i«T£a;tz0  Bsoiiir 

•;  »m&lt   :f«»aa'at  adit  la  do^   Jboo^  a  ^iol)  si 

.c:.uo.!  QiiaitLO  «aq[e*ai  ^t  ««d#  tioa  doxfA  •««  aaXmoiq 

f^f/dir  ^BJsi  dmltl'ti  et  aoaaitlti  a  eaw  eiad? 

.  t/ii.  i^4    amntn  il     *ut  aitaaia^fl'   '  liiBq 

ABliinA  ot  aiAffl  aovtn  ai   aiadc 

~   &8.m  .•  SsXfia^o  adit  to  A»dtMB  Ad 

""•'    '-ad  I     .;tBdt  iudi   *2  o*   eiom  At>sm 

4s   .jiiBfinS  ;fBa':C  Bi  eiaax  em^a  Bsl^BBqe 

ac  i  »fl»Xo  fdtmi  l9  asBXXTl^q:  uii    ,tBlsjoltrBi 

•*...«  acA    ABiiliSi    OIJaiTttOBtBdO    ^lay    BBir"  .Hi    iiusfi 

l   im.»  iiaw  YBdJ  W<1«^  t'lav  -    ,a/; 

:.a.i    a.afi   i^iiiiu   om  i)a8Bai(iaiI  *8cuu  . ;  i         «e«oiJ0i 
r^fi09.£esl«S9BB'i   BB9ltai lizai  nia^iao   aiB  aiad^ 

a  A  xnsd^   odlioeax- 

-  £05  -  2-S2-45 

Mr.  Jolliffo 

of  all,  ome  very  characteristic  British  iastitutioa^ 
the  supremacy  of  Parliamemt  aad  the  consiatemt  respect 
for  that  principle.  The  supremacy  of  the  Parliament, 
with  a  responsible  Government  acting  as  servant  aid 
agent  of  the  Parliament,  and  not  as  its  mast era  The 
British  Prime  Ministers  do  not  give  carders  to  their 
Houses;   they  make  short  speeches,  and  get  along  as  best 
they  can,  and  sometimes  they  get  rather  severely  re- 
buked, but  they  have  to  carry  the  day  on  the  strength 
of  argument  and  on  no  other  ground. 

Secondly,  I  was  deeply  impressed  with  the  insti- 
tution of  freedom  of  speech  and  discussion  with  exists 
in  Great  Britain,  or  certainly  existed  wJien  I  was 
there »  And,  it  existed  for  both  the  big  people  and  the 
little  people,   I  can  give,  as  an  example  of  what  I 
mean,  not  the  usual  example  of  the  orator  in  Hyde  Park, 
but  I  can  give  this  example,  the  highest  standard  of 
academic  freedom  in  the  world  existed^  in  my  opinion, 
in  England:  It  was  possible  for  a  professor  to  say 
things  v/hich,  no  doubt,  no  professor  would  care  to  say 
in  this  province,  and  even  thought  very  few  people  might 
agree  with  him,  it  was  still  possible  for  him  to  say  it 
and  remain  a  ppofessor. 

Thirdly,  -,and  it  is  a  very  similar  rule  with 
respect  for  the  rights  of  the  minorities  and  for  their 
point  of  view,  -  the  rule,  with  respect  for  the  fellow 
who  finds  himself  in  the  small  minority  rather  than  im 
the  majority,  and  a  spirit  of  fair  play  in  political 
controversy,  violent  and  bitter  though  a  political  con- 
toversy  may  be,  a  very  real  spirit  of  fair  play,  even 
towards  those  with  whom  there  was  wide  and  fundamental 

-  206  -  2-22-45 


dis agreement*  It  is  probably  the  only  country  I  have 
ever  bee  a  in,   -^   aid  I  have  beem  1h  a  good  maay,  -  where 
I  have  heard  the  (juestioB  raised  about  wide,  fuadamental 
disagreement.  I  never  heard  it  suggested  that  if  the 
differences  betv/een  the  political  parts  were  too  wide 
you  cannot  have  political  parties  any  more,  or  you  can- 
not have  elections  any  more.  Britain  is  the  only  country 
where  I  never  heard  that  ingenious  suggestion,  to  be  follow- 
as  an  excuse  for  totalitarianism,  and  also  the 
recognition  that  democracies  have  to  fujietion  through  the 
people,  and  therefore  through  their  own  voluntary 
organizations  as  well  as  through  the  local  government 
and  the  Parliament  and  the  Cabinet. 

And  a  very  healthy  respect  exists,  Mr.  Speaker, 
for  the  individual  consciences,  together  with  acceptance 
of  the  principle  that  the  will  of  the  majority  must 
prevail.  I  suppose  that  position  has  been  established 
in  Britain  through  years,  like  unpopular  individuals, 
such  as  Charles  Bradshaw  and  others,  who  destroyed  the 
right  of  individual  conscience  but  was  upheld  by  others. 

finally,  Mr.  Chairman,  1  was  impressed  in  that 
country,  particularly,  with  the  general  belief  that 
changes  of  a  fundamental  nature  could  be  made  in  an 
orderly  and  democratic  way,  and  that  is  the  bast  way 
to  do  it.  It  is  probably  quite  unnecessary  for  me  to 
remind  the  House  that  in  that  country  they  had  the 
political  and  social  r evolution,  namely,  the  extension 
of  the  franchise  to  all  the  people,  whether  they  had 
property  or  no  property,  and  that  was  accomplished 
without  bloodshed,  even  though  it  took  a  long  time 
and  even  though  there  were  many  who  did  not  agree  when 

-  207  -  2-22-45 


it  was  eventually  doae,  but  it  was  a  step  which  ia 
other  couatries  has  unfortunately  caused  much  violence. 
That  step  was  taken  in  Britain  by  the  British  in  an 
orderly  and  democratic  way. 

Now,  ia  my  opinion  these  seemed  to  be  among  the 
more  important  British  iastitutioas,  and  it  is  my 
hope,  Mr.  Speaker,  that  with  the  assistance  of  this 
Legislature  British  iastitutioas  as  important  as  these 
will  be  maintained  in  the  proviace  of  Ontario. 

The  second  of  the  twenty-two  points  was  a  most 
interesting  reference  to  cooperatioa  with  other  provia- 
cial  governments  and  with  the  Dominion  Government.  The 
administration  plj-edges  itself  to  cooperate  fully  with 
other  provincial  governments  and  the  Federal  administra- 
tion in  fighting  the  war  to  a  successful  finish  aad 
establishing  social  security  for  all  citizens  without 
sacrificing  provincial  control  of  provincial  affairs. 
I  am  well  aware  that  in  the  hon.  Prime  Miaister's 
view,  his  attitude  aad  that  of  the  Government  toward 
the  Family  Allowances  question  is  completely  consistent 
with  the  plBdge  made  ia  that  poiat  No.  2.   The  Govera- 
meat  have  also  referred  to  aumerous  agreements  with  the 
Dominioa  Government  regarding  war  projects  of  various 
kinds,  but  ia  that  respect  they  are  only  doing  their 
duty,  aad  in  the  province  of  Ontario  are  other  course 
would  have  been  unthinkable.   The  important  point  is  in 
the  first  real  test  of  social  security  legislation,  or  of 
Dominioa  fiscal  policy  legislation,  whichever  it  may  be, 
la  the  first  real  test  the  province  of  Ontario  did  not 
merely  state  their  objection  to  such  legislation  without 


1  bBKlMtntam  e>d 

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^  'J        A 

'^■^  "Jius  oi)x;;ti;;t,tB   ^  ■ -'     welv 

dx/p  aeosawoIXA  ^iliOBl  ecL:' 

;<j  (teiii'  «i   si)BaBa  e^i/jftCq  9tii    rfJlv. 

t"    aoflivr'""    •--■■*    •• '     '  ""■• 
IdBiMltiiDJJ    Re-J>u    ©VB. 

'>iooa  lo  iaB1^   Le 
IBJMO  io   eojtivoiq  eri^f  i^aaa   Ib&i  *B'. 

~  208  -  2-22-45 

MTo  Jolliffe 

comsultatioH;  they  did  not  merely  state /'STe  think  we 
ought  to  have  soxne  share  ia  the  admiaistratioa  of  the 
scheme",  -  they  wemt  very  much  further,  becaiiee  the  hon. 
Prime  Miaiater's  speech  oa  the  radio  of,  August  9th, 
1944,  represented  the  very  opposite  of  co-operation. 
They  went  much  further  than  any  discussion  about  family 
allow?aBCQs,  and  embarked  oa  a  discussion  of  the 
characteristics  of  at  least  one  other  province  which 
could  aot  possibly  assist  the  cooperatioa  between  this 
proviaee  aM  others  at  any  time,  and  which,  I  think 
represented  a  very  serious  blow  to  the  iaational  unity 
of  this  countryo  NoWp  the  Gov0rKme».t  is  perfectly 
entitled  to  hold  the  views  it  does  about  the  family 
allo?/anc©a»  I  say  that  ig  one  thisig,,  but  it  is  entirely 
another  thing  to  go  on  the  radio,  and  to  say  what  the 
hoa.  Prime  Minister  did  en  August  9ths  1044.  It  is 
perfectly  clear,  of  course,  the  whole  issue  does  show 
if  anything  were  needed  to  show,  the  necessity  for  the 
clarification  of  this  question..  I  entirely  agree  we  need 
to  have  them  clarify  it  at  the  Dominion-Provincial 
Conference,  I  do  aot  know  of  any  other  way  of  doing  it. 
The  clarification  will  not  be  hastened  by  a  tax  on  other 
proviaces . 

I  am  also  'waiting  for  some  assurance  from  the 
administration  that  after  their  changes  of  general 
legislative  grants  for  educational  purposes  they  still 
feel  prepared  to  take  oa  the  family  allowances 
provincially,  I  think  they  ought  to  admit  right  now, 
without  very  great  chaages  they  could  aot  withia  the 
present  resources,  or  the  resources  of  the  immediate 
fut\ire,  themselves  finance  the  family  allowances 




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i:  aovleamerf 

-  209-  £-22-45 

Mr.  Jollliffe 

provincially.  And  I  am  reminded,  Mr.  Speaker,  eighteen 
or  twenty  years  ago,  when  the  old-age  pensions  were 
under  discussion,  we  also  heard  strong  objections  from 
the  conservatives  against  the  old-age  pensions  on  the 
ground  such  a  scheme  should  not  be  attempted  without 
the  agreement  of  the  provinces  or  the  participation  of 
the  provinces.  Now,  there  was  some  merit,  constitutionally, 
and  legally,  in  what  they  had  to  say,  but  what  many  of 
them  were  prepared  to  say  at  some  times  and  some  places 
was  that  they  did  not  believe  in  the  old-age  pensions, 
n.and  that  they  thought  such  assistance  would  break  down 
the  morale  of  the  Canadian  working  man  and  destroy  his 
backbone  and  undermine  his  individual  initiative. 
I  am  prepared  to  accept  the  assurances  of  the  Govern- 
ment that  they  believe  in  the  principle  of  family  allow- 
ances, but  what  does  concern  us  is  that  so  often  we  find 
in  this  country  resistance  to  necessary  social  legislation 
built  on  a  purely  constitutional  argument  or  built  on  an 
argument  about  the  rights,  privileges  and  perogatives  of 
the  province  against  the  Dominion  or  the  Dominion  against 
the  province  or  the  municipalities  against  the  province, 
or  vice  versa.  It  is  high  time  that  the  three  levels  of 
government  came  together  and  made  very  clear  what  our 
several  responsibilities  are,  so  that  there  will  be  no  place 
for  argument  about  social  legislation  or  constitutional 
grounds,  but  we  ought  to  be  able  to  discuss  them  on  the 
grounds  of  their  social  need  and  their  social  cause,  and 
keep  within  the  argument  the  considerations  of  constitutional 

There  was  point  No.  3  in  the  twenty- two  points, 
a  very  important  one  to  my  view,  and  perhaps  the  nearest 



■Jiq-  e  >inea'is«  ©xl;J 


.  Jii'ie^ 

caiiaiq   fiu- 

,  rf,+ 

-  210  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

the  Progi'essive-Conservative  Party  came  to  proclaiming 
their  fundamental,  political  and  economic  philosophy. 
They  pledged  themselves  to  encourage  priviate  initiative 
in  every  field  of  employment,  to  support  the  farmers, 
factories,  mineral  and  forest  development,  and  other 
activities,  by  helpful  legislation,  tax  reduction,  and 
the  removal  of  bureaucratic  restrictions.  Now,  all  that 
the  hon.  Prime  Minister  had  to  say  about  point  No, 3,  in 
his  radio  speech  of  December  13th,  when  he  reviewed 
the  record  of  the  Government,  was  two  sentences.   He 
said,  and  I  quote,  "The  farms,  the  factories,  the  mines, 
the  forests  and  personal  services  were  to  be  assisted  in 
their  efforts  to  increase  employment  and  good  wages. 
That  has  been  done  with  positive  and  substantial  results.** 
Now,  perhaps  it  is  a©  wonder  he  had  so  little  to  say. 
Everyone  icnows  the  present  volume  of  agricultural  preduc- 
tiofl  and  the  p;  esat  volume  of  employment  is  due,  almost 
entirely,  to  war  expenditure,  to  the  spending  of  the 
Dominica  Government ,  with  the  entire  support  of  the 
people  ©f  Canada,  and  the  spending  of  several  billions 
of  dollars  for  the  war  and  other  necessary  purposes. 
Under  those  conditions,  no  one  can  be  surprised  to  find 
that  the  farm  income  is  somewhat  better  than  it  was  in 
Ontario,  and  that  employment  is  considerably  greater, 
to  put  it  milding,  thaa  it  was  a  few  years  ago,  but  the 
hoa.  Prime  Minister  had  nothing  to  say  about  roduoed 
taxes,  and,  after  all,  thero  was  reference,  ia  peint 
Ne.3.  to  tax  reduotien*   We  shall,  no  doubt,  hear  more 
of  that  oa  another  ocoasien.  V\rhat  I  am  interested  to 
know  is,  what  is  the  meaning  of  the  term  "private 
initiative",  as  it  was  used  in  point  Mo.  3.  That  term, 

-211  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

of  it"' "If,  denotes  something  admirable,  certainly,  and 
I  am  full  of  admiration  for  people  who  show  personal 
initiative,  and  I  beliere  that  there  are  several  million 
men  in  the  Armed  Foroes  of  the  United  Nations  to-day  who 
are  showing  very  considerable  personal  initiative.  I  am 
sure  it  is  to  be  encouraged,  I  can  thinic  of  many  other 
people  in  many  other  walks  of  life  who  also  show  this 
admirable  quality  of  private  initiative,  ~  that  is  to  say, 
without  waiting  for  instruction  or  assistance,  they  do 
what  they  know  to  be  best  and  to  be  possible  under  the 
circumstances.  That  is  one  thing,  but  I  fear  thei-e  is 
some  confusion  between  the  use  of  that  terrn,  in  its 
ordinary  sense,  and  what  the  Conservatives  had  in  mind. 
I  think  it  is  fair  to  say  what  they  bad  in  mind  was  the 
use  of  private  initiative  in  private  enterprise,  in 
business  and  in  industry*  I  appreciate  full  well,  and 
so  does  everyone  of  the  CoCFo,  that  there  is  an 
important  place  for  private  initiative  and  there  is  an 
important  place  for  private  enterprise  in  business  and 
in  industry,  in  agriculture  and  in  many  other  fields  of 
endeavour,  but  the  use  of  the  term,  with  that  admirable 
quality,  in  order  to  suggest  that  we  can  stake  our  future 
of  private  enterprise  in  the  major  enterprises  of  this 
country  is,  I  think,  leaning  on  a  very  broken  reed.  The 
crux  of  the  matter  is  really  this:   sooner  or  larer  the 
wheels  of  our  war  industries  ivill  grind  to  a  stop,  and  sooner 
or  later  many  thousands  of  workers  in ithese  industries  will 
be  on  the  street.   Sooner  or  later  several  hundred  thousand 
men  and  women  in  the  Services  are  going  to  be  demobilized,, 
and  what  we  want  to  knew  is,  How  is  private  initiative 
going  to  provide  Jobs  and  security  and  equitable  farm  prices 



IS  tree 

RSOiiq    ffilBTt    9lC 


£12  -  2-E2-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

and  better  housing,  and  so  on,  for  these  people?  If 

we  thought  there  was  enough  experience  to  indicate  private 

initiative  could  meet  that  responsibility,  or  do  that 

job,  then  we  might  be  prepared  to  go  along  with  those 

people  in  it,  but  we  have  seen  no  evidence  to  that 


Turning  to  agriculture  for  a  few  moments,  Mr. 
Speaker,  I  think  we  are  all  familiar  with  the  Govern- 
ment's pledge  to  set  up  committees  of  outstanding 
farmers  in  each  county  with  authority  to  plan  joint 
production  and  promote  the  processing  and  distribution 
of  farm  products,  to  take  over  all  stockyards,  and 
operate  them  as  publicly-owned  agencies,  thus  cutting 
out  speculation  and  manipulation,  which  have  proven 
Injurious  alike  to  producers  and  consumers. 

Now,  the  Government,  last  year  or  the  year  before, 
set  up  an  Agricultural  Commission  of  Enquiry,  and  the 
Government,  at  the  last  session,  sponsored  legislation 
for  the  setting-up  of  an  additional  committee.   So  far 
so  good,  but  I  am  puzzled  by  one  point  of  the  Speech 
from  the  Throne,  and  that  is  that  no  reference,  whatever, 
that  I  can  find,  was  made  to  the  Agricultural  Commission 
enquiry.  As  I  understood  it,  great  hopes  were  held 
for  the  result  of  that  enquiry.  As  I  understand  it, 
people  with  other  responsibilities  were  engaged  for  a 
period  of  time  working  with  the  Commission,  and  I  am  also 
familiar  with  the  fact  that  a  great  deal  of  work  was  done. 
Now,  apparently,  if  we  are  to  draw  any  conclusion  from  the 
absence  of  any  reference  to  the  Commission  in  the  Speech 
from  the  Throne,  the  conclusion  would  be  this,  that  it  is 
all  going  to  be  forgotten.  There  is  no  forecast  that  I  can 

.led  bn.B 


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Snl  P-ietsTc't 

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.enofc   EBw  Jfiow  '. 

riodsq  needs 

e_    .  ■'  • 

-  213  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

find  in  the  Legislation  to  implement  the  recommendations  of 
the  Commission,  whatever  there  may  be,  and  I  would  have 
thought,  in  such  an  era,  in  regard  to  such  an  important 
question  relating  to  the  whole  future  of  agriculture,  that 
we  would  have  received  in  the  Speech  from  the  Throne  some 
indication  of  what  the  Government  propos  ed  to  do  about  the 
rt commendations  of  the  Commission.   After  all,  we  had 
represented  on  that  Commission  some  of  the  leading  people 
of  agriculture  in  Ontario,  and  they  held  many  meetings. 
I  am  sure  they  did  a  great  deal  of  work:,  and  we  were  told 
at  the  last  Session  their  recommendations  were  coming 
forward,  and  the  Government  was  going  to  give  them  the 
fullest  consideration,  and  do  whatever  could  be  done  to 
improve  the  position  of  our  farmer.  But,  at  this  Session, 
sincere  there  is  no  reference  to  the  matter  in  the  Speech 
from  the  Throne,  and  since,  unfortunately,  the  hon.  Minister 
of  Agriculture  (Mr.  Kennedy)  is  not  able  to  be  with  us,  I 
suggest  the  hon.  Prime  Minister,  or  some  other  hon.  member 
of  the  Government,  tell  us  fully  and  frankly  just  what  it 
is  all  about.  Do  they  come  to  the  conclusion  the  recommen- 
dations of  the  Commission  should  not,  or  ought  not,  be 
Implemented?  If  they  have  complaints  to  make  as  a  result 
of  that  enquiry,  then  let  us  hear  all  about  them.   I  think 
a  good  deal  of  the  mystery  of  a  matter  of  this  kind  ought 
to  be  removed. 

Unfortunately,  the  House  does  not  meet,  generally 
speaking,  more  than  once  a  year,  and  there  is  a  long  period 
elapses  between  one  Session  and  another,  and  in  that  long 
period  a  good  many  of  these  mysteries  seem  to  develop.  I 
challenge  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  to  accept  the  opportunity 
which  this  Session  provides,  and  take  the  House  into  his 

-   214  -  2-22-46 

Mr.   Jolliffe 

confidence  and  tell  us,   as  fully  and   frankly  and   freely, 
how,  what  he  thinks  about   agriculture,  as  he  did  vrtien  he 
was  leader  of  the  opposition,  when  the  matter  was 
frequently  reached,   as  one  of  importance,  as  indeed  it 
was.       In  fact,  I   think  it  is  true  to   say,  when  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister  was  leader  of  the  Opposition  in  the  year 
immediately  preceding  the   provincial  election,   agricul- 
ture was  made  the  subject  matter  of  the   amendment  by  the 
opposition  to  the  address  in  reply  to  the  Speech  from 
the  Throne,   indicating  the   importance  they  attached  to  it. 
I  hope  we  hear  much  more  about  it   at  this  Sessions  than 
we  did  at  the  last  Session.       In  OT^r  view,   of  course, 
the  appointment  of  the   Commission  was  a  good  step,   in 
the  first  place.        Ne  believe  that   the  future  of  agricul- 
ture in  Ontario  depends,   among  other  things,   upon  the 
organization  of  the   farmers  themselves.     iVhatever  they 
can  do  to  help  themselves  is  most  certainly  to  be 
encouraged,   and  they  are,   after  all,   the  best    judges  of 
the   problems  of  their  own  industry  now  and   in  the  future. 
However,  when  I   say  that,   I  am  referring  not  only  to  the 
Commission  and  the  enquiry,   or  the  County  Agricultural 
Committee,    but   also  to  the  farmers'    co-operative  organiza- 
tions, which,   I  understand  and  I   observe  to-day  are  under 
bitter  attack  by  big  Dusiness  in  this  country.      .Vhen  the 
farmers'    cooperatives,  Mr.   Speaker,   come  under  attack  by  big 
business,   that  is   just  about  the  best  proof  we  have  that  they 
are  doing  a  good   Job  for  the   farmer.     The  future  of 
agriculture  also  depends  on  fair  treatment  by  processing 
organizations,   and  it  is  no  secret  in  this  House  we  do  not 
think  the   farmers   are  ever  going  to  get   fair  treatment   from 


-  215  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

monopolistic  processing  organizations  over  which  the  farmers 
have  no  control,  whatsoever.  We  do  not  think-  they  will  ever 
get,  -  and  I  am  not  optomistic  about  the  future  of 
agriculture  iA   any  province,  —  they  will  never  get  fair 
treatment  until  such  time  as  the  farmers  themselves,  or 
their  representatives,  can  gain  control  of  the  important 
processing  organizations,  so  that  the  benefits  of  modern 
efficiency  can  be  based  on  agriculture.   A  great  deal 
depends,  also,  on  fair  treatment  by  manufacturers.  I  do 
not  suggest,  for  one  moment,  that  the  Government  is  in 
a  position,  or  ever  has  been  in  a  positioa,  to  step 
in  and  decree  what  the  manufacturers  shall  charge  the 
farmers  for  implements  or  other  necessities,  so  there 
are  some  steps  the  Government  could  have  taken,  and  sooner 
or  later  this  country  and  this  province  will  have  to 
face  up  to  the  fact  that  the  basic  cause  of  an  agricultural 
depression  in  Canada  during  the  last  thirty  years  has  been 
price  structure,  monopolistic  practices,  the  rigging 
arrangements  of  the  implement  manufacturers,  and  all  other 
great  concerns  which  do  business  with  the  farmers,  and  it 
is  no  small  wonder  Western  farmers  should  tura,  in  desperation 
t©  the  establishment  of  the  new  implement  organization  which 
if  it  is  engaged  in  the  manufacturing  of  implements,  it  will 
be  able  to  market  the  implements,  and  the  implement  business 
will  cease  to  be  the  racket  which  it  is  to-day.  I  suppose 
the  most  important  question  of  all  is  that  of  the  prices 
which  the  farmer  will  receive. 

Now,  it  will  be  quite  necessary  for  any  hon. 
member  on  the  other  side  of  the  House  to  inform  us  what 
prices  to-day  are  under  Dominion  control.  That  ia  quite 

-  £16  -         Z-^ZZ'^b 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

unnecessary..  But  what  v/a  wish  to  inform  them 
is  that  after  this  war  is  over  it  is  more  than  likely 
that  prices  will  not  be  under  Dominion  control,  -  at 
leasts  not  exclusively  under  Dominion  control,  and  we 
are .therefore,  looking  to  the  Government  for  an  explanation 
©f  the  means  whereby  they  hope  to  protect  the  farm  prices 
•r  to  maintain  adequate  farm  prices  in  this  province 
after  the  v/ar  is  over^   It  it,  I  say  again,  most  regrett- 
able that  the  hon.  Minister  ©f  Agriculture  (Mr.  Kennedy) 
is  not  able  to  be  here,  because  there  is  a©  Minister  from 
whom  we  would  rather  hear  on  that  subject.   If  the 
Government  has  any  plans  with  respect  to  price  control, 
or  price  regulation,  if  it  has  any  plans  for  encouragement 
of  organizations  by  the  farmers  themselves  to  bargain 
collectively  for  prices,  then  let  us  hear  about  it  now, 
rather  than  after,  the  war,  when  It  Tvill  probably  be  too 
late . 

I  do  not  associate  a  great  deal  with  bankers, but 
occasionally  I  run  into  ©ne ,  and  I  had  an  opportunity, 
not  30  long  ago,  to  come  in  contact  with  a  friend  of  mine 
who  has  occupied  a  very  high  position  with  one  of  our 
chartered  banks  of  this  country  for  some  time,  and  he 
expressed  to  me  the  unqualified  ©pinion,  which  is  his  opinion, 
and  may  be  no  better  thaa  any  other  man's  opinion,  but  it  ia 
an  opinion  guiding  the  operations  of  one  of  this  country's 
major  banks,  -  he  expressed  to  me  the  ©pinion  that  at  the 
conclusion  of  the  war  there  will  be  a  period  following  the 
war  net  of  Inflation,  at  all,  but  his  opinion  was  that  at  the 
conclusion  of  the  war  there  will  be  a  period  of  acute 
deflation,  that  the  sudden  cutting  ©ff,  or  progressive  cutt- 
ing off,  of  the  great  volume  of  purchasing  power  from  the 

-   217  -  £-ii2-45 

Mr,    Jolliffe. 

large  aumber  of  workers  aad   farmers,  and  the   fear  of 
speadiag  money,  and  tlae   tkreat  of  i»securlty,   aad   the 
undoubted  factor  tkat  our  manufacturers  have   learned 
mere  about  the  techaique  of   productien  thaa  they  ever 
Icaew  before,   -  aad  they  will  very  quicicly  be  able  to  malce  i^p 
amy  deficiencies  there  might   be  of  coasumer  goods,   -   all 
these   factors,   taken  together,   in  the   opinion  of  ray  friend, 
will  mean  deflation  very  soon  after  the  end  of  the  war  in 
Europe o        It  might  be   the   opinion  of  others  that  he   is 
entirely  wrang,   but,   en  the   other  hand,   it  might   be   that  M*h 
the   facts  at   his  oommand  it   could  be  that   his   opinion  is  well- 
founded,  and   if  that   is  so  I   fear  that  the  farmers   of  this 
province  might   again  be   confronted  with  an  era  of  falling 
priceso     Desperate  measures  will  have  to   be  taken  for  their 
protecti©n»       They  need,   therefore,   not   only  a  fair- price 
structure  and  an  adequate  marketing  organization,   but  I 
suggest,  Mro  Speaker,   in  view  of  ths   fact  we  do  not  know 
exactly  whai    tiiis  th.X,AV-:j.  may  bring  forth,   they  need  sorie   pro- 
t«cti»n  ftr   the   stcurity  •t  tenur*  •t  th«   farmar  en  his  lakd 
in  Ontario 0       It  is  a  most  curious  thing  that  in  the  province 
of  Saskatchewan,   which  I  had  the   privilege  of  visiting   last 
summer,    (and  where  I  repeatedly  heard  our  Liberal  friend 
assuring  the   farmers  if  they  elected  the  C.G.F.   they  would   have 
their  farms  taken  away  from  them,)  ■ —  it  is   a  most   curious 
thing  that  this  election,  which  resulted  in  the  election 
of  the  first  C.C.F.  Gdvernment  in  Canada,   also  resulted  in  the 
election  of  no  less  than  thirty  farmers  among  the  C.C.F.   group. 
They  were,   in  fact,   at  all  times  the  majority  of  the   C.C.F. 
candidates  in  that  election,  and  very  broad  were  their  smiles 

-  Vi: 

lo  laet  9AS  baa  ,  eaefflijsl   buB  Ri©:?iiow  lo  ledmua  69101 

bemiBsl  evM  BiBiuioBluaeiD  1^9  iaii  loioBt  bettiuobau 

leve  veriJt  n»iii  aolioubeiQ   Jo   eupiutlooi  eilct  :tuo<ift  eiom 

qp   e>iBin  oJ  eiajB   ac   ^-i-^oiijp  Xisv   Ixxw    ^siij  t>afl    -    .faioisu   weasi 

Ilfi   -  ,ef>oos  ioB2x/s**o  to  ea   ^ifs-i^  8'xeii;f  eeioMoioilet  xmt 

^bast-it   vffi  ^o   nolniao    ailJ  nl   ,i9Xl;teso:t  ae^i    .81o;?ojd1   ezBcLt 

ai  oAw   8JIJ  10   tias  ad  J  idJis  fiooe  ^aav  aeicmlab  aB&Di  II  Iw 

ei   ed  iBii  ai&dio  to  Koialq9  Bdi  9d  Stt^Lsn  il       .aqoiifS 

d#ilk   ;tBil^    ed    iit^la    31       bnRrf    Tsr'.la    Fj"rf:t   no      JTirc    .  ^^loTw  vf9Ti:ta9 

-IIsw  ei  a«lnlqo   elxl   ^£;1J   @u   i;i;>od   Ji  i>«£23aioo  £i£i   J&  uJOi^i    aaj 

eii(;t  lo  B-xaimfll  etii  iBdi  iBet   I  as  bI   JBirf;t  11   toB  ^b»hau9t 

SniXlBl  lo  Bia  KB  Ailvt  be^xoilaoo  ed  mIbsb  sd^iM  eoAlvoaq 

liajlct  lel  AasiB^   ed   o^  evBiil  IIlw  eexuBBaoi  e^tBiaqeeCI     .edoliq 

doliq-ilBl  B  \Ia«  ivL  ,Biot9rLBdi   ,Jb«6c  yaMT       .Aal^toe^raiq 

I  iud   .aol^BslaBsio  ^l^e^iiBcn  ai^BupatB  ub   bmB  •x^-.^.^j.i^ 

oi  8w  toBl   edi  la  welv  «!   ^lesifiaqe  .iM  .cTea^^e 

/ox{;J   ,i!*nal  s«licf  xbjt'  JOBxa 

'--'  • '^"^    —'  la  aujaa^  la  x^^^ii^o^e  aifit  -xal  M.9lio»t 

eoalyoic  i  iBtii   ^irii  euoitvQ   J  bob  b  bI  ;J1        •oiiBiaO  ni 

^bbI  8ai*i8lv  lo  ©s©Iivlaq  ed^  fefid   I  doiilw   ,nBwario*fl3i8«8  la 

fcnslil  leae  biBOd  xlbQte&qerL  I  ©i»iiw  »^a^^'    ,  lacouaije 

ever!    blirow  yeri^T   ."S  jiii  betoeio  x^d^  11  BiemiBl   edt  ^iliueBB 

Bi;oxiuo   tBor>  b  b1   tl  —   {  .tri'e^S  r  bwb  aeJiBt  sinnBl  tiedi 

nclioe±v   enc   al  bailve&i  auj-riv  Joal©  eldi   ;iBiii  snidi 

edi  al  pg^Iubbi  obIb  .BfiBflsO  al  ;fnainnl«»6C  9^.  0.0  feilt  edi  lo 

.p-L'rtT;    -"^.O.O   &riJ  gnoiEB   BisfflTBl  v*iirf?  rLBri:t   r>:  tJ    on   lo  nolioele 

.'1.0.0  aai  lo  x*-tnotBin  emj  Bemu  iiB  js   ,3ob'i  nx   ,&aev 

eeIl£T8   ilexiit  eiewr  bsoid  xtev  Imib  fnoi;rodle  ctBXi;t  ai  B&^BblbaBO 

216  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolllffe, 

indeed;,  when  the  Lioeral  leaders  held  forth  about  the 
menace  of  the  CoCoFo,  which  was  going  to  confiscate  their 
farms »   The  curious  thing  is,  one  of  the  first  Bills 
introduced  by  that  new  Groveriunent  in  the  Saskatchewan 
Legislature  at  the  special  session  which  was  very  swiftly 
called  In  October,  1944,  was  a  Bill  to  protect  the  security 
of  the  Saskatchewan  farmer  in  the  occupation  and  ownership 
of  his  land,  to  protect  him  from  losing  his  quarter  section, 
one  hundred  and  sixty  acres,  on  which  he  and  family  lived, 
and  on  which  they  had  their  buildingSo   That  is  the  first 
step  the  Government  took,  and  took  it  quickly.  That  is 
on©  of  the  first  steps  of  one  of  the  first  C.G.F.  Governments 
in  this  osuntryo 

I  am  of  the  opinion  this  province  could  also  do 
with  legislation  to  protect  the  future  position  of  the 
farmers  in  Ontario  g  ^A/ho  have  not  yet  any  reason  to 
assume  that  prices  after  this  v/ar  or  the  demand  after 
this  war  will  be  anything  like  they  are  to-day.   To  be 
forewarned  is  to  be  fore-armed-  and  I  should  think  wo 
would  bo  well  advised  to  give  soma  thought  to  that 
question  without  any  further  delay. 

There  was  a  corresponding  point  in  the  Conserva- 
tive programme f  the  one  about  Labour,  which  received 
considerable  attention  in  this  House  at  the  last 
Sessiono   I  d®  not  propose  to  discuss  the  matter  in 
detail.   There  are  others  who  can  do  so  much  better  than 
I,  but  it  is  well  to  recall  that  the  Progressive- 
Conservative  Party  promised  to  give  the  workers  and 
the  employora  the  fairest  and  the  most  advanced  labour 
law  possible.   This  is  to  be  achieved  by  empowering 
an  Ontario  Labour  Relations*  Committee  to  outline  a 


•ho  iiol  bled  816 

ellia  iein   ei 

Xl^liwe  Yiev  eflw  rloiriw  noiaeee   leioe 

qiifBieawD  i>a£  aol^i 
,noJ::t'''P   Tei^iBi/p 

,f>8vii   xXlxnal   i>nB    en  iloidw 
iBil^  edjf  el   itsrfT       „e?^njtfc. 

8;tnoinni»vo0  ,"'1  iatll  Biii  lo   sac 



ob  08 IB   f)Xyr 

ed^  lo  aol^lBoq   6- 

©cf   oT         ,VBt~ 

al   i»:tiBm  aria-   -^ 

,  -.'jir.'XBl 

-  3  X? 

cj  r  f  ri  i>  r  n 

e^  ©eor  ieaoS 

-•vleesasoi*!  eriJ   ;f6Xli^  XIao»i  «? 

bnB  aiesliow  »ri;f  evljs      *    ' "'  - 

luodBl   JbooflBvJDB   Saom  etis  drb  iamijjil  eaa   aiox*.; 
Snlaowoqice  ^d  l)ov»li1o«  (  •Idlee©' 


219  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe. 

plan  based,  on  study  of  labour  laws  of  other  countries. 
This  is  with  a  view  cf  adopting  comprehensive   and 
enforceable  collective-bargaining  legislation.      Now,   the 
bona  Prixne  Ministar  also  said  on  the   radio,   in  detail, 
how  this  would  be  dona,   and  in  his  more  recent  radio 
speech  of  December  12th  the  noa.  Prime  Minister  toads 
the  claim  that  Ontario  has  the   fairest  and  most  advanced 
laws  governiog   labour  relations  in  the  whole  of  Canada. 
Unfortuaatelyj   the   labourer  does  not   agree,   and  we  cannot 

I.n  point   of  fact,   nost   of  the   representative 
organizations  of  Labour  in  recent  months  have   expressed 
their  strong  dissatisfaction  with  the  Order-in-Counoil 
1003 »   a  Dominion  Order-in«Council,   ~-  which  13  part  of 
the  law  of   this  province  for  a  time,   -»  as   a  result   of 
what  was  done  by  tnis  Legislature  at  the   last  Session, 
So  great  waa   the  dissatisfaction  of  that   Order  expressed  by 
the  labourer,   that   the  Saskatchewan  Legislature,   at  its 
first  Sessions  did  not   hesitete   to   pass  a  new  Trade  Union 
Acto       The  Sasicatchewan  Government   terminated  its  agree- 
ment with  the  Dorainion  Govornoient  in  respect  to  Ordsr-in- 
Council   1003 o 

I   think  that  while  the  Prime  Minister  and  Minister  of  Labour 
may  xiot  agree  with  the  substance  of  the  Saskatchewan  Trade 
Union  Act   --  they  nmy  think  it  is  unwise   legislation  —  I 
think  at   least   taau  they  raight  agree  that  it   is   advanced 
legislation.         It  is   the   kind  of  legislation,  I  might  say, 
which  we  do   not   expect   fron  the  Progressive-Conservative 
administration,    but   it  is   the  kind  of   legislation  which  is 
needed  in  order  to  assure   the  security  of  labour   arid  of  the 


baa   Gv-i  e. 




1o  Hi 

-8 sag 3  r  ; 

I   -- 

ericT  lo  fiUA  ouodA 


-  220  -  2-"22-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

workers  of  the  post-war  period o  There  is  a  well  grounded 

fear  a^-nong  labour  men  to-day  that  the   end  of  the  war  will 
mean  a  return  by  some  employers,   not   all   employers-  but  by 
some  of  them  to  their  pre-war  policy.         There  is   a  well 
grounded  fear  that  when  there  is  a  surplus  of  labour 
rather  than  a  shortage  of  labour  and  when  wages  are  or  can 
be  driveu  down  instead  of   being  raised,   that  some  employers-- 
and  perhaps  many  employers   — ■  will  band  themselves  together 
to  withdraw  the   concessions  which  have  been  so  hardly  won  by 
labour  in  recent  years,   and   for  that  reason  increasing 
emphasis  is  being  placed  by  most  labour  organizations,  and 
also  by  the  G»CoF»,   upon  the   importance  of  union 
security  provisions  in  union  agreements*       I   know  there 
are  those  who  think  they  are  bad  in  principle   but  I  do  not 
think  that  they  clearly  or  fully  understand  the   principle 
and  the   principle  is   a  perfectly  democratic   one,   viz.,   that 
when  a  group  of  people   are   associated  together  in  a  certain 
economic  enterprise,   there  are  certain  matters  with  respect 
to  which  the  interests   of  the  majority  must   prevail"   and 
that  is  the   principle  which  is  written  into  the  union 
security  clause  of  many  union  agreements  and  which  enables 
a  well  organized  union  to  give  much  better  service  to  its 
members  and  much  more   efficient  and  effective   service  to 
its  members  and  to  enjoy ^   I   must   say,   much  more  co-operative 
relationship  with  employers  thaa  would  otherwise  be 
possible.  The  union  security  provision  becomes 

mandatory  where   a  majority  desire  it  under  the  Saskatchewan 
labour  law.  It  would  be   a  great  thing  for  the  Province  of 

Ontario  in  my  view,   not  only  for  labour  but   also  for 
employers  and  for   the  general  public.       It  would  be  a 
valuable  and  constructive   step  if  v;9  had  similar  legislation 


r  f iw  T«w 
J I 

•  -eisyoXqffla  e. 
^d  cow 

?w~^ac  816: 

•iq  lie  At  oi  me  AS  to  eaoB 
rfe  fl  T©xl*«i 

,j.W   otf 




ac     . 

.      eifl  '-■:•■ 


^lec!   ai  el:eA£lgiti& 

-izeneSrA   & 

■i    nc; 


'lew  B 


bi  I/OW 

3  ea«" 

aoi^ffllBf  "'-*■ 

iflif  r««7 

-  £21  -  Z-ZZ-Ab 

Mr.  Jolliffe. 

here,   but  the  ProgrerfslTe-Conservative  party  being  what  it  is 
I  am  afraid  that  we  cannot   expect  it. 

Then,  tooc,   &  reference  wae  made  in  the  Speech  from  the 
Throae  to  the  question  of  administration  under  Order-in- 
Council  1003.  Now,  Mro   Speaker, may  I  say  I  think  the 

present  Labour  Relations  Board  of  Ontario  has  done  some  good 
and  useful  work,   that   the   Chairman  and   other  members  of 
that  Board  have   dealt  with  a  great  many  cases,   sometimes 
in  trying  circumstances   and.  with  a  highly  unsatisfactory 
piece  of  legislation  to  administer,   and  I   think  a  great  deal 
of  credit   is  due  to  them  for  what  they  have   been  able  to 
accomplisho       It  doss  not  follow  that   because  they  have 
doB©  a  pretty  good   job  of   adrainistering  that  Order  in 
Ontario  we  should  accept  that  Order  for  all  time  to  oome 
and ,   frankly,  I   am  amazed  that  we  have  no  indication  from 
the  Speech  from  the  Throae  of  what  post-war  labour  legis- 
lation is   piaaned  for  this   province o  Even  if  we  want   so 
far  as  to  agree  with  the  Government  that  the  proper  thing 
to  do  in  war  time  was  to  adopt  Tominion  Government  Order-in 
Council  1003,   with  a  great  many  meatal  reservations,   and 
make  it  effective  for  ail  industry  in  Ontario,   even   if 
we  went    so   far  as  to   agree  with  the  Government  about  that, 
we  would  still  be   faced  with  the    necessity  of  considering 
what  is   the  best  and  most   advaaced  labour  legislation  for 
Ontario  after  the  v/ar  ends  and   after  the  Government  are 
under  no  further  obligattoa  v/hatever  to  the  Dominion 
Government  in  respect  of  labour   legislation  applying  to 
war  industries.        Now,   as  a  result  of  Dominion-Provincial 
conference  it  may  be   that  we   can  achieve   something  of   the 
nature  of  a  national  labour  code,  which  would  be  a  simple 
thing  and  which  might  help  to  remove  some   of  the  present 


el  il  iBOvr  ^. 



frf  t-\^     I        t^ 

lO    BT9C 

lepb  SB912  B  Ttnlci 

-ela©!  iiwtfal  • 
oe    intnw  ©w  1^   f 

\f^  ^  -r  rt  ri  f   V  u  rr  •*  a  LT 

,;ten:f  .ti.K>de  crns; 


.'  OS 

>   oaob 

9»q8  •iii^ 

lot  Jiol;r0iex3»i  iiX)c 
•IB  ia«natef 

DC      '- 


©ri?  "to  s;ij.u^ 
eXqffiie  iS  eo  ti 
iaeeeaq  edc  "  .. 

-   222  -  2-22-45 

Mr.    Jolliffe^ 

causes  of  friction  between  various  provinces  but  until 

that  time  come  we  are  entitled  to  a  declaration  from  the 

Governiaent   of  their   post-war  labour  policy —  if  the  Government 

is  to  be  in  office  in  the  post-war  period,  which  may  be 

questionable ,    but   is  something  at   least  that  has   to  be 

considered  as  a  possibility-  that  has  to   be  avoided.     I  do 

not   agree  that   it   ought  to   oe  avoided  but  for  the   purpose 

of  the  Jpeech  from  tne  Throne  and  for  the   purpose  of  this 

debate  it  is  tne  duty  of  the  Government  to  tell  us   what  their 

plaiis  are,   if  they  have  any  plans —   on  their   assumption 

they  propose  to  stay  in  office  indefinitely,  unless,    of  course, 

it  is   their  desire  after  eighteen  months  disillusionment   to 

throw  off  the  care   of  office. 

mr.   Speaker,   I  now  come  to   a   point  which  grieves  me 

and*  others   on  this  side  of  the  House  who  admire  the  excellent 

iualities   of  the  Provincial  Treasurer.        Point   No. 6.   of  the 

m  poiats  was  to  pledgel  to  appoint  as  Minister  of  Mines  a 

man  who  knows  mining;    to   lighten  the   burden  of  taxation 

to  repeal  nuisance  laws   which  hamper  the   activities  of 

prospectors  and   geologists.  And  the  Prime  Minister  in 

speaicing   to  this   point   in  July  iy42,  went  even  further.     He  was 

most  specific.    He  said: 

"The  mining  industry  will  be  assisted  in  every  way 
possible  and  placed  under  the  direction  of  a  Minister 
with  practical  knov/ledge  of  raining.  The  tax  burden 
will  be  lightened  and  therer  will  be  a  more  equitable 
distribution  of  the  tax  between  the  different  taxing 
bodies.  A  larger  share  of  the  taxes  will  go  to  the 
provincial  and  municipal  treasuries.  All  restrictive 
measures  which  deny  prospectors  and  others  the  induce- 
ment to  find  and  develop  new  mining  properties  will  be 
repealed  and  every  encouragement  will  be  given  to 
geologists  and  prospectors  to  discover  new  mineral  area. 
iSvery  practical  measure  possible  will  oe  adopted  to 
expand  this  great  basic  industry  so  that  it  may  offer 
the  widest  opportunities  for  employment  when  our  armed 
forces  are  demobolizedo" 

Now,  there  are  some  very  specific  commitments  in  that 

ed  o  1   R  Bl- 
ob   ' 


oi   Jner n o  i  f. -  i  j.  x o 
&ri:f  1o   .d.oi' 

B    88;:  "■•    "■     ' 



esw  eU 

, '  ne  f)i  t  c    X  i:- :'   ;  r;  T      .  r  •  i- 
eldjBJtijjpe   sior  b  oa    .  • 

....    9sii  oi  OS  IIlw  esxB 

-6oul>fll  ©xl;t  eiL -., 

.  ©d  iXlw  eeiitieqoag  sinl  qolev 
o*  nevis  sa  111 

.B81B  iBienlii!  w©ii  leVc,---  ..-    -. , 

oi   58^qobB  90   lilw  elcfieeoq  ©ot/ei, 
•le^lo  \Bsr.   :tl  issii  oe  - 
l)©!!)!^   liKD  o&xiw  ^necYoIu.,. , — ,.„  ,. 

o  eeeufio 

'  "      "  3fljin©voO 

ii;  ad  o^  ei 

,  aldfiaoliteetf: 

mU  ©8036  5on 

. Q1B  easlq 

;.oqoiq   yeri^ 
li&iii  el  ^i 

eiflO    yxict    llO   W01XI5 

.sil;to  'baB 
Jo  e^iillBUt 

im  ewoo^j  oiltv  tiam 
«!   so'.iBeii.ii  iBsq©*!  o^ 

;r   SAl3lBeq6 
liosQE   ^edin 




■    oiq 

■    aC: 
'      ©XT 



'iq  Yi®vSi 

■*   biifiqx© 
^blw    ©flcf 

6  eeoiol 

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jffloo  oi'tio©!,:- 


-,ri:f   ,woM 

-   2£3  -  E-22-45      '     * 

Mr.    Jolliffe. 

paragraph  regarding  Minister  and   taxation,   fto.     First, 
may  I  say  of  the  Minister  that   he  without  doubt  one  of 
the  Prime  Minister's   strongest  oolleagues  and  it  may  well  be 
that   he   has  become  an  authority  on  mining.     I  don't   know. 
Although  I.   have  aever   been  aware  of   any   great  raining 
activity  in  the  good  old  Town  of  Lindsay  and   vicinity.  It 
may  be  tnat  he  does  know  mining.         Let  us  give  him  the  benefit 
of  the   doubt  and  assume  it,   but   the  real  point   is  that  as 
Provincial  Treaaui'er  he   carries  one  of  the  heaviest 
portfolios  in  the   administration.       It  may  be  that  he   can 
carry  that  and  a  dozen  more--  I  don't  icnow--  but  it   does  seem 
to  me   if  iTiining  is   half   as  important  as  the  Prime  Minister 
represented  it  to  be  that  it   should  not   be  responsibility 
of  a  iUiiister  who  holds  an  office  as  important  as  the  office 
of  Provincial  Treasurer.        And  if  we  are  told  that  the 
reason  taxation  cannot    be   lightened  as  much  as  it  could  be 
or  should   mS   oeoause  the  Dominion  has  intervened,   then  it  ia 
true  that  the  same  thing  was  in  effect  in  1943.        The 
Dominion  at  that  time  was  already  exercising  its  taxing 
powers  i:i  the   same  way  that   it  is  to-day. 

Then  we  have   had  during  the   last   18  months  an   inquiry 
into  the  whole  3ub;)eot  of  mining  by  the  Urquhart  Committee. 
I   have   no  doubt  that  much  useful  work:  was  done  by  the 
Co:iimitteSc       I  think  its  Report  was  tabled  for  honorable 
meriDers  to-day  and  from  what   little  I  have   previously  seen 
of  it  I   aia  sure  much  of  the  work  done  was  of  very  real 
value,   whether  we  agree  with  the   conclusions   of  the 
Coaimattae  or   not,    but  what   I   shall  suggest  to  the  House   at 
the  present   time  is  that  the  mining  industry  in  Ontario 
if  it   has  a  future-   is  going  to  need  perhaps  more  planning 

.  v.- 

Bji,  i. 


224  -  2-iiii-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe. 

and  more  methodical  investigation  than  any  other 
industry o    All  our  experience,  I  suggest,  goes  to  show 
that  moaoply  enterprise  and  stpct:  market  taining  cannot 
meet  the  basic  requirements  of  the  raining  industry  in 

'i?hat  are  those  re-iuirenients?   In  the  first  place 
there  is  a  need  for  rigrous  and  aggressive  and  practical 
exploration*   That  need,  I  gather,  is  to  be  met 
through  the  Government  policy  by  the  encouragement  of 
trained  prospectors.  Exploration  under  the  present 
system  has  Dean  inadequate.   There  is  a  need  also  for 
adequate  capital  to  finance  not  only  exploration  but  new 
development  and  all  our  experience  goes  to  show  that 
capital  has  been  inado;^uate  under  the  present .  system  to 
finance  new  mines  of  importance  with  the  exception  of 
gold  mines,  which  can  be  financed  more  easily.   As  so 
we  hare  what  I  suggest  is  an  unbalanced  mining  development 
in  Ontario.   We  have  a  very  important  gold  mining 
development^  which  is  the  result  of  the  fact  that  a  small 
gold  producer  can  be  brought  into  production,  if  there  is 
any  hope  there,  for  relatively  little  capital.   »Ve  have 
far  less  base  metals  development  than  ought  to  be  in  this 
Province  because  the  capital  required  for  base  metal  devel- 
opment is  always  much  more  substantial  and  the  existing 
facilities  for  raising  new  money  and  for  the  investment  of 
capital  in  Ontario  by  monopoly  enterprise  are  Just  inade- 
quate..  A'e  have  had,  therefore,  an  unbalanced  development 
which  is  the  result  of  not  only  lack  of  planning  but  of  the 
wasteful  use  of  capital.   Not  only  the  wasteful  use  of 
capital  but  the  neglect  of  the  communities  concerned  and 
of  the  people  who  become  involved  i^   any  mining  development. 

urn  II  e     Q  . 














tc.    J-n-. 


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JbcB  l>©ci  so 

-  £25  -  2-22-45 

Mr.  Jolllffa 

It  is  D.0   news  to  this  House  that  xaany  very  serious  social 

probleras  in  Northern  Ontario  have  grown  out  of  the  hit  and 
miss  unplanned  development  in  some  of  our  mining  areas.  It 
is  no  secret,  also,  that  notv/ithstanding  all  the  precautions 
and  restrictions  laid  down  by  law  that  human  welfare  and 
huaan  safety  has  frequently  oeen  neglected  in  the  raining 
industry 0   It  is  not  very  long  ago,  ?.Ir.  Speatcer,  when  no 
less  than  I  believe  16  workers  lost  their  lives  in  one 
accident  at  a  mine  in  or  near  Tinuoins ,  Ontario.  I  trust 
that  the  investigation  to  be  carried  on  in  connection  with 
that  disaster  will  be  thorough  and  that  the  Government  will 
act  on  whatever  information  loay  be  discovered. 

There  is  another  mystery,  Mr-  Speaker,  concerning 
another  of  tiia  iiS  points,  and  that  is  point  No .7.  The 
Goveraraent  was  most  definitely  pledged  to  appoint  a  Forest 
Resources  Commission  to  cancel  improper  timber  contracts;  and 
to  push  policies  of  conservation,  reforestration  and  soil 
control  extending  to  all  parts  of  the  province,  and  employing 
tons  of  thousands  of  men  after  the  war. 

This  legislature  was  asked  to  pass  legislation 
authorising  the  appointment  of  a  Forest  Resources  Commission. 
The  A.nnounoemeD.t  was  made  that  many  timber  contracts  had  been 
cancelled  or  revised.   We  are  assured  from  time  to  time  by 
the  Prime  Minister  that  policies  of  conservation  are  being 
pushed  and  that  new  cutting,  methods  are  being  applied.  But 
there  is  an  air  of  mystery  which  concerns  the  whole  business 
and  I  think  the  House  is  entitled  to  far  more  information  than 
we  aave  yet  received.   One  mystery  is  the  Forest  Resources 
Commission  itself,  3o  far  I  have  not  been  able  to 
discover  any  Forest  Resources  Cfctmaission,  although  it  was 


iX   .eee'iB 

Jbol    axstv'  ji 

flWld^    -.- .     -„..       ,- .     ..     

£8011. 0£9H  ^; 

£26  -       2-SE-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

authorised  last  session,  and  were  assured  it  was  a  matter 
of  the  greatest  importance  that  this  great  industry  should  be 
brought  under  a  co-ordinated  direction  of  a  new  coamission. 
I  think;  we  were  even  told  by  the  Prime  klinister  that  the 
present  Department  of  Lands  and  Forests  was  expected  to 
wither  away  as  many  of  its  functions  were  to  be  taken  over 
by  the  Forest  Resources  Commission.   To  the  best  of  my 
belief  there  is  no  Forest  Resources  Commission  end  certainly 
on  Deccir;ber  13th  there  was  no  such  commission  because  the 
Priiijie  Minister  said  the  appointment  is  awaiting  the  completion 
of  an  inquiry  now  being  conducted  into  the  procedure  which 
has  been  followed  in  awarding  contracts  and  establishing 
cutting  rightSo   Ever  since  I  have  heard  of  the  Prime  Minister's 
political  activities  sometime  ago  I  have  heard  of  his 
inquiries  into  the  Lands  and  forests  and  we  are  now 
learning  another  inquiry  is  proceeding  into  the  procedure 
to  be  followed  in  awarding  contracts  and  establishing 
cutting  right So  Apparently  the  administration  of  our 
forest  resources  is  still  with  the  Department  of  Lands  and 
Forewts,  subject  to  the  Government's  direction.  At  the 
last  session  we  heard  almoatnnothing  about  the  activities, 
in  anya  of  that  Department  although  there  was  some  important 
legislation 0  If  there  is  anything  to  oe  said  for  the 
Department,  if  there  are  really  any  new  steps  being  taken 
in  connection  with  cutting  methods  or  conservation,  then  by  all 
means  let  us  hea±   about  it  from  the  Minister  of  Lands  and 
Forests  at  this  sessiouo   It  is  a  very  important  Depart- 
ment and  the  Minister  should  place  what  concrete  steps 
are  actually  being  taken  to  conserve  forestry  resources 
so  that  the  future  generations  as  well  as  our  own  may 
benefit  and  so  that  our  forest  crop  may  not  be  depleted  as 

8X1?    ii 

oi  •' 
e/iieiJelfllM  &  -serf  evB  3ani;J-:?i.;o 

n&                               ?K  we-  ^sQ 
baa  efcr 

esoaL'ocei  x^jJeexo^  evi&Bao             sjie^  ;  sib 

yam  itwo  ivo  ep  I  law  8fi  Eaci^ni  oe 

-   £27  -  E-22-45 


it  has  been  already  to  some  extent  and  so  that  we  may  not 
find  ourselves  a  few  jrears  henoe  In  the  position  whioh  now 
confronts  British  Columbia,   for  example,  where  the  fear 
is  that  suoh  a  wasteful  use  has  been  made  in  the  forest 

resources  that  the  income  of  the  province  will  be   very  m.uoh 
1833  in  lature  years  than  it  is  in  the  past. 

Mto   Soeaker,   there  are  many  throughout  this  Province 
who  are  deeply  concefned  for  personal  and  other  reasons  with 
their  housing  accomodation,   and   point  No 08.   of  tha  22 
points  referi'ed  to  that   very  matter. 

Point  No 080  was  as  follows^ 

•*       To  create  an  Ontario  Housing  Commission  for 
"the   purpose  of  wiping   out   slums,   improving 
"home   conditions  i^  city,  town  and  country 
"and  providing  post-war  employment   on  a  large 

It  will  take  me  some  little  time   to  deal  with  the 
matter,  which  is   a  very  important  one,  Mr.  Speaker,   and  it 
may,  therefore,   be  as  well  at   this  time  that  I  move 
the  adjournment   of  the  debate. 

Motion  agreed  to. 

aON.   dEOIGS  A.DRiJvv'    (Prime  Mnister)  Mr.    Speaker, 
I  move  the  adjoarnment  of  the  House. 

MR.   A. A.   McLEOD:    (Bellwoods)s      Will  the   hon. Prime 
Minister  tell  us  when  the  debate  will  be  rewumed? 

MR.  DRS'.V-'     I   think  perhaps  the   hon.   leader  of  the 
Opposition  (Mr.    Jolliffe)   can  indicate  to  me  whether  he 
prefers  to  resume  on  Monday  or  Tuesday. 

MR.    JOLLIFFE:      I   think  possibly  Monday,  Mr.    Speaker, 
would  be   preferable  as  far  as  I  am  concerned.     I  do  not  want 
to  inconvenience  any  of  the  other  speakers.     I   am  quite 
prepared  to  continue  on  Monday  or  Tuesday. 


won  rfoirfw  aol^lBoq  ed^  ni  •oa»d  btjis^  w«i^  b  BevlBeaoo  bait 
(tBBiol  Bd^  nl  •bam  need  BBti  bbx;  Iula;tBAw  a  JiOiL/e  ^Ad^  bI 


lol  aolaaismo'j  SPit 
^nlvoiqml   ,Bfla;J 

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^xutw  iton  ot  I      . bonis fM^co  ce   I  ee  le'?'   ee 

•  XfibeBiil  ataioK 

•voc    . 


^-    bli/ow 


-   228  -  Z-ZZ-^b 

UR.   DSETiTs     I  do  not  want  to  let  that  pass,   in  7l«w 
of  an  earlior  remarlco       I  do  not  want  the  Impression  left  that 
I  am.  being  uAfalr  to  the  hon.  leader  of  the  oppoaltlon 
(Mr.   JolllffeJ. 

MISS  MACPHAILt     Because  you  stole  his  time  — - 

MR.  DRBV/:      If  the   hon.   aieiaber  will  kindly  stop  for 
a  moment;    the  hon.   leader  of  the  opposition  (Mr.    Jollife) 
explained  last   night  that  he  would  not   finish  to-day.   That  was 
discussed  in  front  of  the  Speaker,  and  there  was  no  impairments 
of  his  rights,   and   he  understands  that.     If  the   hon. 
leader  of  the  opposition   (Mr.   Jolliffe)  would  prefer  Monday, 
^e  will  resume  the  debate  on  the  Speech  from  the  Throne  on 
that  day. 

MR.    JOLLIFFEs      On  my  part,  I   cannot  allow  that   to  pass> 
The  hono  Prime  Minister  and  myself  did  have   a  very  amicable 
conversation  aoout   the  matter  yesterday.     I  said  nothing  about 
not    being  able  to  finish  to-day.     What  I   did  say  was  that  I 
expected  to  be  as  long  as  I   was  last  year  in  this   debate,   but 
I   did  not   say  I  did  not  expect   to  get  through  to-day,   although 
I   had  hoped  I  would,   so   that  we  could  proceed  with  other 
Speakers  in  the  debate o     I  v/ant  to  make  that   perfectly  clear. 

While  I   have  no  serious  obiecttion  to  Monday — - 

MR.   DRff/Vs      The   hono    leader  of  the   opposition,  (Mr . 
Jolliffe)    said  that  he  was  going  to  Thorold  tonight  and  wanted 
leave  at  five-thirty.     I  do  not  want  the   question  raised  that  I 
had  any  thought  of  shortening  the  time  of  the   leader  of  the 
opposition   (Mr.    Jolliffe).     I  am  most  anxious  to  co-operate 
with  him  in  that  regard, 

Iffi.    JOLLIFFE:    (Leader  of  Opposition):   What   has   Just 
been  said  is   perfectly  correct.       That  I   indicated  that  I  would 
not   finish  to-day  is   not  correct,   and  if  there  has  iheen  any 

•(  i       ^:**ttrt.' 

a   06  iHO    ,aM 

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-   829  -  2-22-45 

indication  that  we  were  to  hear  from  the  hon.  Prime  Minister 
(Mr.  Drew)   for  three-quarters  of  an  hour  this   afternoon — - 

MR,  DRSiY:     Now,  do  not   exaggerate. 

MR.    JOLLIFFS:     However,  I  will  proceed  on  Monday, 
if  that  is  satisfactory. 

MR,   DRS\(\r:      Entirely  so. 

Motion  agreed'  to  and  the  House  adjourned  at 
6.31  of  the  clock  p.m. 


---  'jjflfi  Bisii  ii/o. 

0    ,  wo?^ 

noi  ^  r 

(weia  .^M) 

;;toBt?  el  ihdi  Jl 

i/i  Jloolo  eri:t  ^o  IS. 3 

-  230  -       2-E3-45 


SPEAKER:  Honourable  William  J.  Stewart,  C.B.E. 

Toronto.  Ontario. 
February  23.  1945. 

The  House  met  at  three  of  the  olock,  p.m. 


MR.    SPEAKER;      Presenting  petitions. 
Reading  and  receiving  petitions. 
.Presenting  reports   by  Committees. 
Introduction  of  bills. 

MR,  QBOIGE  BENNETT  (Windsor-Sandwich) :  Mr.   Speaker, 
I  move,   seconded  by  Mr.   Oennison,  that  leave  be  given  to  Intro- 
duoe  a  bill  intituled,   "An  Act  to  amend  the  Kbinioipal  Act,**  and 
that  the  same  be  now  read  the  first  time. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time. 

HON.   GE0R3E  H.   IXTNBAR    (Minister  of  municipal  Affairs): 
Would  the  hon.  member  be  kind   enough  to  explain? 

MR,  BENNBTTt  The  purpose  of  the  bill  is  to  repeal 
clause  "s"  of  subsection  il)  of  section  53  of  the  Municipal 

The  Clause  provides  for  the   prohibition  of  the  right 
of  citizens  to  hold  and  to  be  elected  to  municipal  office,  even 
thoxigh  they  are  in  debt  to  the  amount  in  excess  of  three 
months'   rent. 

The  Act  also  provides  that  newspapers  shall  be  pre- 
vented from  indulging  in  any  biased  comment,   editorially  or 
otherwise,   on  election  issues  relative  to  parties,   candidates 

ai'-ss-s  -  OSS  - 

Y  J  ^ 

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»Bnot3l&eq  ^tSa9i6i*l      rOOASi^tE    .HM 

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.eea^rd^iOKoO  yd   Biioqei  ^liada^iH.. 

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tos  "«;^0'A  iBqloiatM  mdi  bammB  oi   ^oA  xtA"    ,5elL;^l^ai  Hid  a  •ouI) 

•  Bmli  iBil'i  Bdt  bBBi  woa  acf  Msee  edd  ^Bii^ 
.eini?  tn'ii^  edi  bfiei  Hid   fcoa   of  fceensa  nol^oM 

Taifilqxt  Id   ixi  Oioaffi  .aori  ad^  JbXi/6W 

XfiqioXiUJJU  siiJ  lo  S3  uoi^Jose    lo    .ij   iioxJosBujjB  lo  "e**   dBxrBXo 

$A^t1  BdS  to  noirtldlrioTTT    bAS   lol  aefeivota   98L!bX0  erfT 
li^va   «»oillo   iBqiomuin  oJ   csjoeia   so    oj    zias  Dxon   oa    aassiilo  lo 
e»xif;t  lo  eeeoxe  nl  inu^B  odi  oi  ideb  al  bib  X9d:i  d^^odi 

,  iaei   'adiaotti 
-eiq   ed  XXarie   e^eqeqewen  (JeriJ  eerixvoaq  oeXfl  ^oA  ©xlT 
10  xilBiioilbe   ,in9tmQ0  beaBlti  x^^  ^-i  SflisXi/iMii  ffloil  beiaei 
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-  231  -  2-23-45 

or  platforms,  on  the  day  of  the  election. 

MR.  HERBEEIT  CONNOR  (Hamilton  East )  s  Mr.  Speaker,  I 
move,  seconded  by  Mr.  Thornberry,  that  leave  be  given  to 
introduce  a  bill  entituledj  "Itn  Act  to  amend  the  Public 
Utilities  Act,**  and  that  same  be  now  read  the  first  time. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time. 

MR.  JOSEPH  B.  SALBBSRG  (St.  Andrew):  Will  the  mover 
please  explain  the  purpose  of  the  bill? 

MR.  CONNOR:  Ma>.  Speaker,  the  main  purpose  of  the  Act 
is  to  give  the  citizens  of  any  municipality,  if  they  so  desire, 
the  privilege  of  taking  necessary  action  to  ensure  an  adequate 
fuel  supply  in  the  v/inter,  and  an  adequate  supply  of  ice  in  the 
sumner . 

lAR,   SPEAKER:   Several  hon.  members  have  requested 
permission  to  speak  before  the  Orders  of  the  Day.  I  recognize 
the  hon.  Prime  Minister. 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister)  Mr.  Speaker, 

I  think  in  view  of  the  fact  that  I  gave  the  Legislature  certain 

information  yesterday,  and  read  and  left  with  the  Legislature 

a  telegram  I  sent  a  week  ago  Wednesday  to  the  Right  Hon.Prime 

Minister  of  Canada,  I  May  say  that  I  have  received  a  reply 

from  the  Clerk  of  the  PriKy  Council,  which  reads  as  follows: 

"I  am  directed  by  the  Prime 
Minister  to  acknowledge  the  telegram 
which  you  addressed  to  him  on  February 
14th,  suggesting  that  the  premiers  of 
all  the  provinces  be  invited  to  an 
immediate  meeting  in  Ottawa,  for  a 
preliminary  discussion  of  Dominion- 
Provincial  co-operation. 

"The  representations  of  your 
telegram  were  carefully  considered 
by  the  cabinet,  and,  after  consider- 
ation, it  was  agreed  that  the  circum- 
stances were  not  such  as  to  justify 
a  departure  from  the  decision  announced 
by  the  Prime  Minister  in  the  House  of 
Commons  on  August  14th,  1^44. 

"Yours  sincerely, 

(Signed)  A.D.P.  Heeney." 

I    .TSJlB! 

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lo   -  rt^i.l'x'^.  edS  xd 

.i^r--  ■■■■         oO 

-   232   -  2"E3-'45 

I  have  no  comment  to  add  to  the   self-explantory 


MR.   oPEAXEB;      I  will  recognize  the  hon.  mem:ber  for 

Prescott   (Mr.  Belanger). 

MR.   ADRELIEN  BELANSBH    (Prescott);     Mr.    Speaker,   you 
were  kind  enough  to  accept  my  notice  that  I  wanted  to  speak 
this  afternoon  before   the  Orders  of  the  Day.     Contrary  to 
custom,   it  is  not  upon  any  controversial  matter,   nor  is   it  to 
correct  anything  that   has  appeared  in  any  newspaper. 

However,   iu  order  to  give   some   legality  to  what  I  am 
going  to  say,   I  wish  to  base  my  remarks  upon  an  article  in  the 
Ottawa  Journal  of  February  16th  last,   the  heading  of  an 
editorial  thereof.       May  I  say  that  I  am  a  regular  reader  and 
admirer  of  the  Ottawa  Journal,   but  I  must    say  that   to  give  a 
prominent  place,   such  as  this,    to  an  event  which  has  taken 
place  this  week,   indicates  that  that   event   must  be  of  prime 
importance,   and  that  is  the  reason., Jor  ray  expounding  upon  that 
article  this  afternoon. 

My  remarks  are  also  in  line  with  the   custom  in  this 
House,  whereby  on  famous  anniversaries,   such  as  St.  Patrick's 
Day  and  3to   David's  Day,  we  take  a  few  minutes  to  recall  the 
importance  of  the  event,   to  the  representatives  here  assembled 
from  the  different   parts  of  the   province  of  Ontario. 

This  week,  throughout  the  province  of  Ontario,   in  the 
east,   and  especially  in  the  north,  and  throughout   other' 
provinces  of  Canada,    even  to  the  Arctis  Circle,   there  has  taken 
place  a  celebration  recallirjg  a  very  important   event,   most 
important  for  the  province  of  Ontario,    and  that   is,   the   entering 
into  this  province  of  a  group  of   persons,  who,   in  ray 
opinion,  and  a  very  humble  opinion  it  is,   indeed  -  have  do^e 
more  than  any  other  organized  group  of  persons  to  promote  the 
welfare  of  the  citizens  of  this    province. 

iJO\    , 

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,  levewoH 




TsJtfi   3lrf;J   alol^ojB 

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„,.  .i,_JaadeIeo  a  ©oalq 
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.    ..   .  ..iS   ,noinlqo 

9113^0  Yiia  jEtad;t  eioin 
ensslc^Io  »xl.t  to  siallew 

233   -  2-83-45 

Mr aBel anger o 

I  refer  to  the  arrival  in  "Bytovwi",   on  the  20th  of 
February »   1845,   of   four  young  ladies,  who  came  here  to  establish 
hospitals,   orphanages,   and  schools  to   promote  the  education  of 

And  may  I  be  allowed,  Mro  Speaker,  to  ask:  you   JtlSt 
to  imagine  what   happened  on  that  day,  and  the   day  preceding,   the 
19th  of  February,   1845,   on  the  Ottawa  river,   between  two   lines 
of  pickets o 

There  could  be   seen  from  eight  o'clock  in  the  morning 
at  Montreal,   until  the  end  of  the  day,  when  they  entered  the 
province  of  Ontario,   two  sleighs  in  which  were  the  four  ladies, 
proceeding  through  the   famous  scenery  claimed  by  Montebello, 
and  extending  right   across  the   province  of  Ontario <>      They  had 
seen  the  sun  going  down,   that  same  Western   sun  which  had  lighted 
the  plains  for  Champlain,   and  his  companion  Explorers,   the 
first  missionaries  to  come  up  the  Ottawa  and  along  the  Nipissing 
to  the    shores  of  Georgian  Bay^  whore  they   shed  their  blood 
for  the   promotion  of  civilization  and  Christianity <, 

And  these  four  memorable,  women  reached  Ottawa  the  next 
day,   February  20th,   1845,   at  about   four  o'clock  in  the  afternoon, 
and  there  they  were  net  by  about   seventy- seven  vehicles ^   com- 
prising the  notable  citizens  of   "Bytown",   irrespective  of 
religion,   of  creed,   of   nationality  or  of  language s,  and  the  gay 
procession  proceeded  into  the  city., 

From  these  four  women  has  the   strorig   order  been 
formed  which  comprises  to-day  over  fifteen  hundred 
persons o     And  a  few  days   ago,   and  yesterday  in  this 
House,  we  have   cheered  and  acclaimed  heroes  of  the 

Now,  what  I   am  proposing  is  that  we  extend  greetings 
to-day,   the   greetings  of  this  House,   to   our  heroines  of  peace. 


%  -©ft    s  0  ©i0iiT 


.?i©w  XBtii   ei9iii   baa 

I'  u   -I 

»be9o-  ieesooaq 

e:  I.   :teriw  ,wc 

-  234  -  2-33-45 


I  say  "heroines"  and  well  may  I  say  that.  Hardly  two 
years  after  they  had  arrived  at  Bytown  when  these  four 
young  ladies,  to  whota  had  Joined  some  fifteen  others,  had 
to  take  care  of  victims  of  that  awful  plague,  and  alone  they 
took  care  of  them,  twenty-one  nuns  took  care,  in  eleven 
months  of  five  hundred  and  seventy-eight  patients. 
They  could  not  get  help,  because  fifteen  of  them  had  been 
stricken  down  by  the  plague,  and  people  were  so  much  afraid 
to  get  near  them  that  these  delicate  women  had  themselves 
to  load  on  to  the  trucks  and  all  kinds  of  vehicles  the 
coffins  of  the  victims  that  were  being  laid  to  their  last 
rest.   They  have  dotted  the  province  of  Ontario  with 
hospitals,  old  mens'  homes,  convalescing  homes,  homes  for  the 
incurables,  orphanages,  and  when  it  would  have  been  impossible 
in  certain  sections  of  this  province  to  sedire  teachers'  for 
the  want  of  proper  resources,  these  ladies  took  hold  of  the 
schools,  and  from  their  humble  beginning  they  are  now  giving 
not  only  elementary  education  in  hundreds  of  schools  in  this 
province,  but  even  secondary  education  and  even  university 
education  to  the  degree  of  BoA.   But,  I  will  go  further  than 
that »  these  sisters  have  brought  the  name  to  the  Province  of 
Ontario  and  let  that  be  my  Justification  to  using  the  time 
of  this  House,  for  they  have  brought  the  name  of  the 
Province  of  Ontario  to  the  very  extreme  limits  of  the  Dominion 
of  Canada,  to  the  far  reaches  of  the  Mackenzie  and  the 
Saskatchewan  and  the  Assiniboia  and  in  the  Arctic  Circle,  to  the 
head  of  the  Yukon  river  to  the  oanks  of  James  Bay,  and,  more 
than  that,  they  have  brought  the  name  of  Ontario,  and  have  had 
the  name  of  Ontario  placed  in  the  United  States  across 
the  line,  and,  more  than  that,  even  across  the  seas  in  South 
Africa,  in  Basutoland,  and  as  soon  as  the  war  is  over  in  Middle 

-  2  36  -  2-23-45 

Bin.  Belanger 

Africa  they  will  there  bring  the  light  of  civilization  and 
Christianity,  and  receive  for  the  proinvce  of  Ontario 
the  thanks  of  those  people  whom  they  are  going  to  nurse 
and  whom  they  are  educating  at  .the  present  time. 

Mr.  Speaker,  I  thought  it  7/as  not  amiss  that  I 
should,  on  such  an  occasion,  draw  the  attention  of  this 
House  these  heroines  of  peace,  pictures  of  these  Doves 
of  Peace,  of  these  messengers  of  civilization  and  these 
angels  of  mercy.    I  am  speaking  of  the  Order  of  the 
Grey  Huns  of  the  Cross  of  Ottawa. 

MR . SPEAKER :  The  hon.  member  for  Bellwoods  {Uc , 
MacLeod)  wishes  to  move  the  adjournment  of  the  House. 
The  House  now  adjourns  for  the  purpose  of  discussing 
a  matter  of  urgent  public  importance. 

MR.  A.  A,  MacLEOD.  (Bellwoods):  Mr.  Speaker,  I 

move,  seconded  by  Mr,  Salsberg»  that  the  House  be  now 

adjourned  for  the  purpose  of  discussing  a  matter  of 

urgent  public  importance.  I  do  it  for  this  reason; 

several  days  ago  I  addressed  a  q,uestion  to  the  hon. 

Prime  Ivlinister;  asking  for  a  clarification  of  a  statement 

contained  in  his  province-wide  radio  address  of  August  9th 

last,  respecting  the  Dominion  Family  Allowances'  Act.  On 

that  occasion  the  hon. .Prime  Minister  said,  and  I  quote: 

"I  assure  you  that  tjhe  Goverrmient  of 
■  Ontario  intends  to  do  everything  within  its 
power  to  make  sure  thatirthis  iniquitous  Bill 
does  not  go  into  effect.'' 

Now,  in  addressing  my  question  to  the  hon.  Prime 

Minister,  earlier  in  the  week,  I  asked  whether  those 

words  that  I  have  Just  quoted  still  stated  the  considered 

policy  of  this  Government,  and,  if  so,  what  steps  fias  the 

Government  taken,  or  what  steps  does  it  contemplate  taking 


OB    91. 


SeVCCL     D3 


aoBttl  'io 


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q[  ^nsgox/ 

.'di   betBiB  illta  beios- 

QUi^m    aii. 

iBdl   2M0W 

-  236  -  2-22-45 

I/a?  ♦MacLeod 

to  prevent  the  Family  Allowances'  Aot  from  becoming 
operative  in  this  province. 

Thirdly,  will  the  Government,  at  the  Session  ask  the 
Legislature  to  concur  in  the  cotirse  of  action  it  has 
taken,  or  propose  to  take,  in  the  matter?     ^ 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  it  will  be  recalled  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister  side-stepped  my  (iuestion  by  stating  he 
would  deal  with  the  matter  on  the  appropriate  occasion. 
Well,  yesterday  afternoon  the  appropriate  occasion 
arrived,  and  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  rose  before  the 
Orders  of  the  Day  were  called,  and  proceeded  to  make  a 
lengthy  speech  on  the  attitude  of  his  Government  to 
the  Family  Allowances'  Act.  Like  the  other  hon.members, 
I  listened  very  attentively  to  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister's  remarks,  and  I  am  forced  now  to  say  that  it 
shed  not  a  ray  of  light  on  the  question  I  had  addressed 
to  him  earlier  in  the  week.   In  fact,  Mr.  Speaker, 
after  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  had  finished,  I  recalled  a 
story  told  some  years  ago  by  a  famous  American  clergyman, 
who,  after  delivering  what  he  thought  to  be  a  weighty  . 
sermon,  overheard  one  of  his  parishioners  remark,  "That 
man  can  dive  dov/n  deeper,  and  stay  down  longer,  and 
oome  up  drier  than  anyone  I  ever  heard." 
And  that,  Mr.  Speaker,  in  my  judgment,  is  a  very  good 
description  of  what  we  listened  to  yesterday  afternoon. 

Now  what  are  the  "bare  bones"  of  the  case,  if  I 
may  use  that  term? 

The  Family  Allowances'  Act  was  passea  unanimously 
by  the  Dominion  Parliament  last  summer,  and  it  has  re- 
ceived the  Royal  Assent,  and  is  the  law  of  Canada,  and 
benefits  xmder  that  Act  are  to  become  payable  in  July  of 



aGi)  iiix;ow 





aiJ  A  j.c^'ii  f>j 

-  £37  -  a-23-45 

Mr .MacLeod 

this  year.   Those  who  are  to  receive  those  benefits 

nnist  register  in  Just  a  few  weeks'  time.  Hundreds  of 

thousands  of  Ontario  families  are  eligible  for  those 

benefits,  which  run  into  millions  of  dollars,  and  yet 

Mr.  Speaker,  as  far  as  this  Legislature  knows  at  the  moment 

this  Government  is  committed  to  a  policy  of  doing  evry thing 

in  its  power  to  prevent  this  legislature  from  becoming 

operative  in  Ontario.  I  have  made  two  attempts  to  have  the 

matter  cleared  up  "oijiBe  and  for  all",  to  use  the  hon.  Prime 

Minister's  expression,  -  to  clear  up  once  and  for  all  this 

whole  controversy  by  a  clear-cut  statement  from  the  hon* 

Prime  Minister.   He  refused  to  answer,  and  by  refusing,  in 

my  .tudgment,  he  is  treating  this  Parliament  with  contempt, 

because  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  had  no  mandate  from  this 

Parliament  to  make  the  speech  that  he  made  on  August  9th.  This 

Legislature  has  never  consulted  us  as  to  the  contents  of 

that  speech,  and  all  we  have  to  go  on,  at  the  moment,  are 

his  ovm  words,  used  in  his  speech  of  August  9th  last.  They 

are  on  the  records,  and  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  must  accept 

the  responsibility  for  them. 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  I  got  the  impression,  or,  at  least, 

I  got  the  impression  yesterday  afternoon  that  the  hon. 

Prime  Minister  is  not  very  happy  in  his  predicament  now, 

but  I  want  to  say  to  him,  bearing  in  mind  that  famous  speech, 

and  I  quote  the  lines  of  a  great  poem: 

"The  moving  finger  writes,  and  having  writ, 
moves  on,  nor  all  your  piety  nor  wit  shall 
lure  it  back  to  aancel  half  a  line,  nor  all 
your  te,ars  wash  out  a  word  of  it." 

Now,  some  "of  us  listened  to  the  hon.  irime 

Minister  last  night  paint  a  very  vivid  pictxire  of  the 

effect  of  the  buzz  bdmbs  on  the  City  of  London,  and  with  his 

-  238  -  2-23-45 

Mr  .MacLeod 

aptness  for  fine  phrasing ^  he  described  the  dull  and 
terrifying  silence  when  a  buzz  bomb  lands  and  the 
people  are  waiting  for  the  explosion.  That  is  Just 
about  the  position  we  are  in.  He  let  loose  a  buzz  bomb 
on  the  9th  of  August  on  hundreds  of  thousands  of 
people  in  this  province,  and  they  are  to-day  waiting 
for  the  explosion. 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  if  the  hon.  Prime  Minister 
persists  in  his  refusal  to  give  a  statement  that  we  are 
requesting,  if  he  persists  in  being  a  riddle  wrapped  in 
mystery  inside  an  enigma,  ttwin  I  say,  so  far  as  I  am 
concerned,  I  shall  have  no  other  alternative  than  to 
move  a  resolution  for  the  consideration  of  this  Legisla- 
ture condemming  the  Government's  policy  as  out'--- 
lined  in  the  hon.  Prime  Minister's  speech  of  August  9th. 

I^m.  J.B,  SALSBERG  (St. Andrew):  Mr.  Speaker,  I 
believe  that  the  hon.  member  for  Bellwoods  (iJir.IwacLeod) 
has  quite  properly  placed  before  this  House  this  matter, 
which  is  of  great  urgency,  and  1  think  that  it  is  true 
for  many'members  of  the  House,  as  it  is  for  myself,  that 
we  would  be  failing  our  constituents  if  we  were  not  to 
do jaarpry thing  in  our  power  to  clarify  the  situation  with- 
out delay.  I  come  from  a  constituency  that  is  thickly 
populated,  and  mainly  a  working-class  constituency.   I 
know  that  the  thousands  of  families  there,  as  elsewhere, 
are  looking  forward  to  the  implementing  of  the  Family 
Allowances*  Legislation  adopted  by  the  House  of  Commons 
at  Ottawa  in  July.   I  know  that  they  are  disttirbed  and 
seriously  concerned  over  the  possibility  that  by  some  Act 
of  this  Government  these  allowances  would  perhaps  fail  to 
be  forthcoming,  and  I  think,  because  of  that,  we  should 

-  239  -  S-23-45 

lift'o  Salsberg. 

have  the  Government  made  known  its  position,  so  as  to 
enable  the  hon.  members  in  the  Plouse  to  take  the 
appropriate  action  in  the  House  in  accordance  with  the 
definite  policies  of  the  Government.  But,  up  until  now, 
as  the  hon.  member  for  Bellwoods  (Mr.  MacLeod),  the  House 
leader  of  my  party,  has  so  ably  stated,  all  that  we  and 
the  people  of  the  provinces  have  to  go  by  is  the 
declaration,  which  was  a  very  definite  warning,  in  the 
announcement  of  the  indication  to  prevent  the  implementa- 
tion of  the  Act  insofar  as  the  province  is  concernedo 
And,  in  view  of  the  limited  time  left  between  now  and 
then,  we  cannot  lose  any  opportunity,  at  any  time,  in 
our  endeavour  to  stop  such  torpedoiDg  action  on  the  part 
of  the  Government.  The  problem  is  important,  also,  from 
a  national  point  of  viewc  I  might  say  that  I  think  it  was 
pointed  out  in  this  House  yesterday  that  the  spokesman  for 
the  present  Goveimment  and  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  himself 
had  attempted  to  create  the  impression  that  they  are  not 
opposed  to  the  Family  Allowances ,  and  which  they  acknowl- 
edge as  a  worthwhile  social  legislation,  iin  hon.  member 
said  "Of  course  not."  But  that  hon.  member,  nor  no  one 
else  on  the  Treasury  Benches,  made  known  the  intention  of 
introducing  such  Legislation  when  they  offered  what  they 
considered  was  an  excellent  programme  for  the  people  of 
this  province,  asking  them  for  their  vote,  and  that  is  true 
for  the  hon.  member  for  Sto  Patrick  (Mr.  Roberts),  as  well 
as  everyone  else. 

MR.  A.  KSLSO  ROBERTS  (St.  Patrick):   I  want  to 
answey — 

im,   SPEAKER:   Out  of  order. 

-  £40  -  2-23-45 


MR.  ROBERTS:  I  want  to  answer  the  hon.  i-neraber  on 
that  point. 

MR.  SPKAKER:  Do  you  rise  on  a  po^nt  of  order? 

MR.  ROBERTS:  I  think  I  should  reply. 

Mi.   SPEAKjiR;  No,  you  are  out  of  order. 

MR.  SiLSBERG:  They  felt  they  were  Justified  in 
having  failed  to  include  this  worthwhile  piece  of  legis- 
lation in  their  list  of  promises,  aa  they  did  not  consider 
it  worthwhile,  or  were  too  improgressive  to  use  an  indicative 
expression  for  the  positive  thing,  -  I  mean,  to  advocate 

Now,  knov;ing  that  it  is  national  in  scope,  it  whould 
be,  as  every  important  piece  of  social  legislation  should 
be  national  in  scope,  applicable  throughout  the  Dominion, 
without  exception  to  the  provinces  that  are  not  as 
fortunate  as  Ontario  or  i^uebec  might  be,  such  as  New 
Brunswick  and  others  not  bordering  on  Ontario.   When  this 
comes  up  we  are  confronted,  Mr.  Speaker,  and  hon.  members, 
with  the  usual  blocking  tactics  that  have  been  coupled 
in  the  past  by  reactionary  interest  in  the  country  to 
prevent  progressive  legislation  from  being  enacted.  It  is, 
however,  always  the  provincial  rights  or  the  federal  rights 
that  are  used  as  a  means  of  blocking  advanced  legislation 
in  the  province . 

Now,  we  witnessed  this  very  startling  phenomena 
where,  from  a  different  point  of  view,  ostensibly,  we  have 
an  encircling  attack  upon  this  basic  piece  of  social 
legislation,  and  behind  the  cry  of  provincial  rights  we  have 
the  opposition  la  Ontkrio  coming  from  the  Drew  Government, 
and  the  opposition  in  ^uebec  from  the  Duplessis  Government. 
I  think  the  hon.  members  of  this  House  owe  it  to  their 

-  241  -  2-23-45 

BICr.  Sals  berg 

constituents  that  we  should  make  sitr®  we  will  not  permit 
the  formation  of  a  double  "'D"  axis  in  this  province  to 
scuttle  this  or  aay  other  legislation.  So  that  there  will 
be"  no  doubt,  I  mean  by  the  double  "D"  axis  the  Duplessis- 
Drew  axis,  I  call  it  thr  double  "D"  axis  to  save  the  time 
of  the  House.  We  must  not  allow  the  false  cry  of -the 
provincial  rights  to  be  utilized  in  the  blocking  of  this 
legislation,  and  I  believe,  therefore,  that  the  province 
should  clarify  the  issue,  and  make  s\xre  that  no  surprise 
act  will  be  staged  or  pulled  by  this  Gpvernment  to  prevent 
the  payment  of  family  allowances »  which  is  so  essential 
for  the  majority  of  the  families »  the  working-class 
families,  farm  families »  ia  this  province  and  any  other 
province,  from  coming  into  effect,  or  that  we  shall  do 
anything  or  permit  anything  to  be  done  that  will  rob  the 
children  of  New  Brunswick  and  British  Columbia,  or 
other  less  fortunate  provinces,  from  enjoying  the 
benefits  coming  to  them  beginning  July  1st  next. 

MR.  A.  KELSO  ROBERTS  (St .Patrick) :  I  rise  to  a 
point  of  pi*ivilege.  The  hon.  member  for  St.  Andrew,  ia 
the  covirse  of  his  address,  made  remarks  which  I  think 
were  directed  to  me .  I  wish  to  make  it  (iuite  clear,  at 
ao  time,  either  since  I  have  been  elected  here  or  prior 
thereto,  have  I  personally  made  any  statement  against  the 
principles  of  family  allowances.  I  wish  that  to  be  clear- 
ly understood  by  the  hon.  member  who  made  the  statement. 

MR.  WILLIAM  DENNISON  (St.  David):  Mr.  Speaker, 
this  whole  question  of  family  allowances  is  part  of  the 
problem  of  social  service  for  all  the  people,  and  I,  too, 
was  disturbed  when  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  announced  Chat 
the  Government  would  obstruct  it  in  every  way.  I  am  sure 

tlmtea   Joe 
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-  242  -  2-23-45 

Lt. Sals  berg 

aayone  who  has  had  experience  with  welfare  through 
those  depression  years  knows  that  the  people  of  this 
province  have  suffered  a  good  deal  from  the  hard- 
hearted rulings  made  from  this  Legislature  in  respect  to 
relief  allowances,  and  that  goes  for  the  hoa.  members 
both  of  the  previous  government  and  of  the  present 
government.  \7e   know  the  scale  of  relief  allowances  that 
were  in  effect  in  Ontario  prior  to  1927,  the  scale  of 
relief  allowances  drav/n  up  known  as  the  Campbell  Report,  and 
the  scale  of  relief  allowances  that  expected  people  to  live 
on  three  cents  a  meal,  a  family  of  four  people  or  a  total 
lor  each  individual  of  twelve  cents  a  day,  a  scale  of 
relief  allowancesthat  were  a  disgrace  to  any  civilized 

\7e   know,  further,  that  this  opposition  that  design- 
ed the  relief  allowances  and  designed  the  welfare  allow- 
ances did  not  start  with  the  preseiit  Government,  despite 
the  fact  that  some  people  would  lik6  to  nov;  give  the 
impression  that  they  did.  It  is  just  a  few  years  ago  since 
a  small  little  district,  namely,  Lakeview,  just  west 
of  this  city,  had  two  hundred  heads  of  families  on  relief, 
and  of  those  two  hxmdred  heads  of  families  one  hundred  and 
twenty-five  were  working  out  their  relief  allowances,  and 
had  been  receiving  the  meagre  scale  of  relief  allowances 
I  have  just  referred  to,  namely,  three  cents  a  meal  per 
person.   These  p«opla  were  dissatisfied  witb  $hat,  but  to 
their  amazement  on  the  15th  of  April  of  that  year  the 
Government  Department  here  reduced  their  allowance  twenty- 
five  per  cent.   They  had  been  receiving  twenty-five  per  cent 
above  the  Campbell  ..eport  on  the  15th  of  April,  and  that  allow- 

-  s>s  - 

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:   BlAi  i  adi    ,Tari*Ttf*   ,wo«3f  ©T? 
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eJiqaai/  iaiavot  ^p-aeaiq  ©£tf   riiiWJTaJa   J-  ona 

»dt   Brl^  won  oi'  63(11   fiirrow   aI(rc©<T  ernes   ?i«iri;f   tunt  siii 
©or^''   -^-sfl    aiB8Y  vi&l  B   i  .  .  aaj    EOiaueitiJi.' 

itae  '©IveiflJ   jVlaaiBii   .JoliifBli)  sIj 

^lollti:  flo   e©irJ:ina"i   lo   efissri  berbnsrd  ow^    ftBri-  .v:fir-  aldt  lo 

J^B    JbO  A  Hi; ...).;     -Jilt.  ,    .  ^    :~''  i'JJH    OWJ     aEC. 

Mb   ,asoHBwoIlB  lei  janiliow  ertew  evll-yitHaw* 

a&'.a3woilB  leilai  lo  ©Ibor  ei^.n©©  9di    'vrlTlsos-r  seed   fsar! 

tsq  IflSfli  B  a^aeo  eoi-'  13&7 

tLitvi  belie  aXqoeq  ssariT        .H08i©q 

ieoo   ieq  evi'i-Yi^aew;r   ^filvlaoaT:  nescf   issd  yeiiT     ,*fl©o  loq  fi 
•wolla  *arlJ   Mb   .Xl-iqA  lo  d#dX  en-  ^loq©,,.  XXedqmflO  edi   ©rods 

-  243  -  2-23-45 

Mr.  I/ennison 

ance  was  reduced  down  to  the  Campbell  report,  and  they 
made  up  a  deputation,  and  interviewed  the  Prime 
l-Iiniater,  demanding  that  the  relie'i  allowances  be 
raised,  amd  these  poor  people,  who  had  been  starved  for 
years,  who  had  been  promised  work  aad  wages  by  the  then 
Prime  IHni^ter  if  they  Y;ould  support  him  at  election 
time,  these  i>oor  people  were  invited  intts  the  Prime 
Minister's  office.  But,  there  were  police  hiding  just 
around  the  doors  of  the  office  at  that  time ,  the  Hepburn 
Eussars,  and  at  a  signal  from  the  Prime  Minister  that 
day  these  people  were  all  arrested  tor   demanding  they 
be  raised  to  twenty-five  per  cent  above  that  Campbell 
Report  of  that  day,   A  leaflet  i issued  with 
the  name  of  Mr,  Arthur  Roebuck  on  the  front  page, 
published  by  the  Lakeview  strikers  themselves,  told 
us  the  actions  of  the  Prime  Minister  oC  that  day. 

He  left  an  order  then  that  tlioa«  who  essayed 
to  speak,  be  silent.  Ke  browbeat  eve»  the  little  children, 
whom  he  harshly  addressed.  Iventually,  in  his  hysterical 
turbulence  he  ordered  the  police  to  arrest  three  members 
of  the  delegation. 

Now,  that  ig;  not  the  first  tiae  people  of  this 
province  have  been  askei  to  lire  and  exist  on  allowances 
that  were  not  adequate. 

I  was  through  thia  struggle  on  the  local  counoil 
over  many  years,  where  Liberals,  as  well  as  Conservatives, 
voted  time  and  time  again  against  s«-cting  up  a  socitd 
service  committee  to  study  the  whole  ciuestrion  of  social 
security.  And  I  have  not  forgot ttfji  that  as  recently  as 
1942,  the  City  of  Toronto  was  treating  the  bears  down  in  the 
Zoo  better  than  they  were  taraating  the  people  on  relief. 



noiiBi"j^b  B 


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leile-i  no   elqoe  aBlJaaw*   si©w  vodi 

-  244  -         2-23-45 

Mr.  Dennis on 

I  will  give  you  the  ejtatt  allowance. 

It  was  estimated  that  one  reliefee  got  $2.16  worth 
of  food  for  a  week,  while  one  bear  at  the  zoo  got  ^4.03  worth 
of  food, for  a  week. 

One  adult  and  one  child  got  $3.47  a  week,  while  a 
zebra  got  |4.37  worth  of  food  a  week.  I  do  not  know  whether 
it  was  a  Tory  zebra,  but  it  was  one  of  those  animals  with 
stripes  on.  I  do  not  know  whether  there  is  any  significance 
to  that  at  all. 

Two  adults  and  three  children  got  17.47  per  week, 
and  a  family  of  five  lions  got  |20.40  a  week  for  food. 

The  people  of  this  province  have  long  waited,  just 
as  they  have  long  waited  for  maECh&rs'  allowaace;  Just  as 
they  have  long  waited  for  pensions  for  aged  people  --  they 
have  long  waited  for  better  social  service,  and  it  was  regrett- 
able that  there  should  be  any  suggestion  from  this  province, — 
the  province  that  in  all  other  respects  has  led  the  way  in 
social  service  --  should  do  anything  to  abstruct  social 
service . 

I,  too,  was  very  sorry  and  ashamed  that  any  suggestion 
should  have  been  made,  and  I,  therefore,  support  the  motion. 

MR.  M.F.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):  Mr.  Speaker,  it  was  not 
my  intention  to  participate  in  this  debate,  but  I  hare  been 
brought  into  it  by  the  hon.  member  for  St.  David  (Mr.Dennison. 

It  is  true  I  was  the  premier  of  this  province  during 
the  dark  days  of  relief,  but  may  I  say  that  we  in  Ontario,  from 
1934,  paid  the  highest  relief  on  the  whq3|)B  of  the  North 
American  continent,  with  the  exception  of  the  city  of  Newark, 
where  their  schedule  was  comparable  to  ours. 

I  understood  him  to  mention  the  arrest  of  some  of  a 
delegation.   It  is  true,  we  did  arrest  two  men,  who  were 

f—  r .  rS  O  I* . 



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-   245  -        2-23-45 

Mr.  Dennlsoft 

obviously  fakes,  a»d  who  appeared  before  us  askimg  for 
imcreased  relief  allowance,  but  we  had  good  reason  to 
arrest  them.  0«e  of  those  me«  had  stolen  money,  as  an 
employee  of  the  Farm  Land  Board.   Another  man  was  an 
equal  faker,  because  he  was  on  the  relief  list  of 
British  Columbia  and  Ontario  as  well.  I  think  we  did  the 
proper  thing  to  put  these  men  in  their  place.  I  hope  the 
hon.  member  for  3t.  David  (Mr.  Dennison)  does  not  condone  such 
actions  on  the  part  of  the  people  for  whom  he  has  expressed 
sympathy  ia  his  vote-catching  efforts. 

Howeyer,  I  am  not  concerned  with  anything,  as  far 
as  the  hon.  member  for  3t.  David  (Mr.  Dennison)  is  concerned, 
but  I  want  to  deal  now  that  I  am  on  my  feet  with  the  motion 
properly  before  this  House. 

I  am  rather  surprised  that  the  hon.  Prime  Minister 
did  not  see  fit  to  give  a  reply  to  the  question  which  the 
hon.  member  for  Bellwoods  (Mr.  MacLeod)  so  courteously  asked. 
But  we  understand  he  is  in  the  corner;  no  question  about  that, 
I  can  tell  by  the  expression  on  his  face,  and  I  will  say  that 
if  he  does  say  anything,  we  will  take  it  quite  seriously,  quite 
amlike  the  expression  he  used  as  far  as  I  was  concerned  the 
other  day.  I  still  have  that  rankling  in  my  bosom. 

In  1937,  we  were  both  provincial  candidates;  I  in 
my  own  riding,  where  I  was  born  and  raised,  and  he  in  his  own 
riding  where  he  was  born  and  raised,  in  South  Wellington,  and 
I  think  I  had  a  majority  of  some  5,300  votes,  --  a  lot  of 
people  took  me  seriously  --  and  in  the  riding  where  they  knew 
the  hon.  Prime  Minister  best,  they  gave  him  a  darn  good  "trim- 
ming."  He  lost  by,  I  think,  4,000  votes;  we  will  let  that 

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-  246  -         2-23-45 

Mr.  Hepburn  (Elgin) 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):   Those 
figures  are  pretty  close  for  you. 

-MR.  HEPB'TiN  (Blgift):  Well,  consider  the  election 
of  1937,  at  which  time  I  had  the  honour  of  leading  the  Liberal 
party.  Eight  hundred  thousand  people  in  the  province  took 
me  seriously,  but  ia  the  election  v^ere  you  came  bacic  with  a 
"rump"  government,  you  polled  about  300,000  votes,  so  500,000 
voters  tooic  me  more  seriously  when  I  led  the  Liberal  party, 
than  you  in  the  last  election  when  you  were  elected  to  youp 
present  position. 

Now,  obviously  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  is  most 
anxious  to  dodge  the  main  issue.  What  he  is  trying  to  do  — 
and  we  might  as  well  strip  the  facts  oare  --  is  to  stir  up  a 
national  disunity,  to  stir  up  a  devil's  brew  in  Ontario,  and 
I  will  quote  his  own  words,  and  this  pampfuiet  ia  published 
with  the  authority  of  the  Progressive  Conservative  Headquarters, 
Richmond  3treet ,  Toronto,  a  pamphlet  entitled  "Where  Canada 
Stands,"  and  right  on  the  front  page  we  see  the  picture  of 
"Gorgeous  George"  --  nothing  could  be  more  attractive  than 
that.   What  does  he  say?  "Many  millions  of  dollars  in 
the  poclcets  of  the  people  of  Ontario  will  go  to  the  people  of 
the  province  of  Q,uebec  under  this  measure." 

He  does  not  deny  saying  that.  Then  he  follows 

that  up  by  saying  this: 

"But  I  assure  you  that  the 
Government  of  Ontario  intends  to  do 
everything  within  its  power  to  make  sure 
that  this  iniquitous  bill  does  not  go 
into  effect.   It  is  not  this  bill  alone, 
but  the  whole  principle  involved  which 
we  intend  to  resist." 

I  mentioned  this  yesterday  because  it  is  not  very 
often  I  read  Tory  propaganda.  I  do  not  get  much  enlighten- 
ment clearly  on  another  page,  where  he  says: 


Si^S    - 


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-  247  -         £-23-45 

Mr.  Hepburn  fSlgin) 

Ife   have  before  us  the  problem 
of  rebuilding  Confederation  and  in  doing 
3o  must  decide  whether  this  is  going  to 
be  a  country  where  equality  of  advantage 
and  obligation  go  hand  in  hand." 

Tkat  is  the  issue.  He  says  "That  is  the  issue 
which  cannot  be  separated  from  any  discussion  of  those 
measures  which  confer  special  advantages  upon  the  province 
of  .^luebeo .  * 

I  think  that  is  clear  enough.   Then  he  goes  on  to 

I  know  that  there  has  been  much 
hesitation  about  saying  these  things.  But 
I  know  that  everyone  is  talking  about  these 
things.  It  will  De  far  better  for  the 
people  of  Quebec,  as  it  will  for  the  rest 
of  Canada,  if  this  issue  is  brought 
clearly  and  frankly  into  the  open.    No 
other  issue  in  this  country  to-day  is  of 
comparable  importance." 

That  is  the  issue,  and  he  is  trying  to  stir  up 
disunity  between  the  two  provinces,  predicated  upon  his 
assertion  that  Quebec  will  benefit  under  this  scheme  of 
family  allowance. 

Incidentally,  as  I  said  yesterday,  I  am  not  a 
lawyer,  for  which  I  am  truly  thankful,  but  I  have  had  com- 
petent legal  advice  in  regard  to  this  measure,  and  I  am 
advised  that  the  Dominion  Government  has  the  right  to  vote 
any  sum  of  money,  and  to  pay  that  money  to  any  person  it 
pleased  at  any  time,  so  we  are  powerless  to  stop  the 
Dominion  government  from  paying  this  money,  irrewpective  of 
ainy  statement  by  the  hon.  Prime  Minister. 

His  statement  was  predicated  upon  the  assertion 
that  Quebec  will  benefit  by  these  allowances.  I  went  out  of 
my  way  again  to  get  facts  and  figures,  and  I  find  that  the 
province  of  t^nebec  will  pay  34.5  per  cent  of  the  cost  of  the 
family  allowances  and  the  province  of  0.uebec  will  receive 
32  per  cent  of  the  advantage.   So   I  say  his  effort  to  stir 


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to    I  o 

'^  .»        .:     t»  J  O   C    l(^  1-    J.   Jt>  Q.  A  CI 

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lo  ©vlJf  ^     -■•■ '■"   -'-*  ■  "'1^  &ai>s^.u  i:j . 

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©vleo&i   i-  

-  248  -         2-E3-45 

Mr .Hepburn  f Elgin) 

up  disunity  on  this  issue  has  aborted  completely,  and  T  do 
not  admire  the  hon.  Prime  Afinister  for  cloaking  himself 
with  a  maslc  of  silence.  I  think  the  hon.  member  for  Bell- 
woods  (Mr.  MacLeod)  is  entitled  to  receive  a  courteous  reply 
to  the  question  which  he  so  properly  directed  to  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister  of  this  province. 

MR,  DMNISON:  I  rise  on  a  question  of  privilege  -- 

MR.  SPEAKER:   The  hon.  member  for  St.  David  (Mr. 
Dennison)  has  spoken  once* 

MR.  EDWARD  B.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
A  question  of  privilege  should  be  taken  up  immediately. 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Two  hon.  members  got  up  at  almost  the 
same  instant.  I  acknowledged  the  meiaDer  for  3outh  Wellington 
(Mr.  Hancock),  and  the  hon.  member  for  3y.  i^avid  (Mr.  Dennison) 
has  spoken  once. 

MR.  CA3SBLMAN:   I  have  been  reading  this  "Red  Book" 
furnished  to  us  by  the  Clerk  of  the  House,  and  I  understand  a 
question  of  privilege  takes  precedence  over  ejrerything  else. 
Will  you  kindly  give  us  a  reply,  Mr.  Speaker? 

MR.  HKPBURN  (Elgin):  You  are  right. 

MR.  SPEAKER:  I  kept  the  Red  Book  closed  to-day 
and  tried  to  be  rather  generous  in  my  rulings.  T  acknowledge 
that  a  question  of  privilege  should  iminediately  be  heard,  but 
I  had  acknowledged  the  hon.  member  for  South  Wellington. 
However,  if  the  hon.  member  for  St.  David  (Mr.  Dqfnnison) 
wishes  to  raise  a  question  of  privilege,  go  ahead. 

MR.  DENNISON:   The  hon.  member  for  Elgin  (Mr.  Hepburn) 
asked  me  if  I  intimated  that  I  would  not  be  prepared  to  arrest 
a  man  who  merited  arrest,  I  believe  any  man  who  merits  arrest 
for  breaking  the  laws  of  this  province  should  be  arrested,  but 
there  are  places  for  arrest  -- 

MR. NIXON:   That  is  not  privilege. 

^Isemtrf   stnfjiBo 

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-  249  -         2-S3-45 

Mr.  Hepburn  (Elgin) 

MR.  D2NNIS0N:  The  hoa.  Priiae  Minister  should  not 
take  the  law  into  his  own  hands,  to  browbeat  the  unemployed. 

I^m.  LESLIE  HANCOCK  (iVelliagton  oouth):  Mr.  Speaker 
yesterday  I  sought  to  rise  to  ask  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  a 
question,  but  since  you  ruled  that  the  issue  was  not 
debatable,  I  refrained,  but  to-day  apparently  I  have  that 

The  hon.  Prime  Minister  made  a  statement  to  the 
effect  that  the  Family  Allowance  Act  would  cause  the 
divtilgenoe  of  harrowirig  details,  and  that  family  pride  would 
be  violated-- 

HON.  GE0SG3  A.  DREff  (Prime  Minister):  Mr.  Speaker, 
I  must  correct  an  inaccurate  statement.  What  I  said  was  that 
the  method  that  had  been  announced  the  night  previous  would 
produce  that  result,  not  the  Act. 

MR.  HANCOCK:  I  would  like  to  ask  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  whether  he  suggests  that  there  is  no  family  pride 
violated  or  harrowing  details  divulged  by  a  family  under  the 
present  Social  Service  Act  of  this  province?  I  know  that  is 
a  fact,  that  a  number  of  people  who  have  needed  social  ser- 
vices in  my  riding  have  had  to  give  details  which  caused  them 
much  pain.   I  listened  with  amazement,  and  heard  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister  suggest  that  only  in  the  case  of  the  Dominion 
Family  Allowance  Act  does  this  obtain. 

The  Government  has  no  monopoly,  Mr.  Speaker,  upon 
receiving  no  replies  to  their  letters  addressed  to  Ottawa, 
any  more  than  they  have  any  monopoly  in  the  same  field. 

I  wrote  to  the  hon.  Minister  of  Welfare  (Mr.  Vivian) 
a  letter  suggesting  immediate  action  in  the  case  of  workmen's 
compensation.  I  did  receive  a  letter,  but  no  acknowledge- 
men  of  this  suggestion.  I  might  read  the  letter,  Just  to 


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Mr.  Hancock. 

show  you.       TUis  is  regarding  a   case  in  Guelph,   a 

silicosis  case,  regarding  one  Arthur  Melancon,   of 

Guelph,   Ontario,  where   he  had   been  receiving  the   noble 

sum  of  $7.79  per  week.       The  letter   says: 

"Dear  3ir, 

"This   is  an  appeal  to  you  on 
behalf  of  the  above,  and  all  similar  cases 
of  disability.      Arthur  Melanson  was  a 
moulder  in  the  service  of  Taylor  Forbes 
&  Co.   at  Guelph  for  over  twenty  years. 
As  I    saw  him  recently  he  is   a  very  sick 
man,    suffering  from  silicosis  and   heart 
trouble,   rendering  him  almost  a  complete 
disability  case.     I   have   interviewed  the 
officer  looking   after  silicosis   cases  at 
the  Workcaen's  Compensation  Board,   Canada 
Life  Building,   Toronto,   and  find  that 
since  the  doctors  have  allowed  him  AOt  - 
50^  silicosis  disability,   he   is  receiving 
all  they  can  legally  pay  him  according  to 
the  Act,   namely  45^  of  two-thirds  of   an 
average  week's  earnings  of   $25.97,  which 
comes  to  $7.79  per  week.     I   have  not 
checked  back  with  Mr.  Melancon  and  the 
Taylor  Forbes  Co.   as  to  the  accuracy  of 
the  f25.9  7  weekly  average  wage,   but   it 
is  my  understanding  the  Workmen's  Com- 
pensation Board  prides  itself  in  being 
ahead  of  the   other  social   services.     If 
this   is  the  case  I  woald  not   care  to  say 
what  I  think  of  the  other  social  services. 
You  know  how  far  $7.79  a  week  will  carry 
a  man,   wife  and  dependent   daughter  or 
daughters  these  days  with  a  home  to  keep 
up.     Some   families  I   know  spent   nearly 
that  much  on  an  over- size  Christmas 
turkey . 

"Since  the  Act  is   presumably  com- 
plied withain  this   man's  case,   only  two 
other  alternatives  suggest  themselves  to 
me.     First,   that   legislation  be   introduced 
removing  the  two-thirds  clause   from  the 
Workmen's  Compensation  Act,   and  that  com- 
pensation be  made  on  the  basis   of  per- 
centage disability  of  full  wages,  which 
would  still  only  give  this  family  fll.68 
weekly.     Secondly,  I   suggest  the   better 
plan  of  amalgamating  all  social  services 
and   evaluating  disability  needs   on  the 
spot.     After  a  fair  award  is  made  under 
the  second  plan,   the  cost  would  be  allocated 
to  the  responsible   bodies.      In  Mr.  Melancon 's 
case,    since   he   is   an  industrial   casualty, 
the  (Workmen's  Compensation  Board  would 
continue  to  pay  their   share.      To  cover 
his   heart  disability  which  may  or  may  not    . 
be  due  to   silicosis,    the  municipality  and 

OiS   * 

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-  251  -         2-23-45 
Mr. Hancock. 

"province  would  pay  the  balance  necessary  to 
bring  the  family  income  up  to  a  humanitarian 

"^vlay  I  urge  yoar  sponsorship  of  one 
or  other  of  these  plans? 

"Sincerely  yours," 

To  date,  Mr.  Speaker,  I  have  had  no  reaction 
from  that  suggestion.  The  hon.  Prime  Minister  did  say  yester- 
day something  to  the  effect  that  all  social  services  need 
overhauling,  and  for  that  reason  he  was  suggesting  holding 
up  the  Family  Allowance  Act. 

Now  that  I  am  on  my  feet,  I  would  like  to  say  that 
in  common  with  other  hon.  members  of  this  House  I  have  re- 
ceived two  bulletins,  one  called  "Baby  Bonus",  and  the  other 
"Revenge  of  the  Cradle".  I  am  presumably  supposed  to  be- 
lieve that  the  author  of  these  bulletins  very  kindly  mailed 
them  to  me  free  of  charge,  as  well  as  having  them  printed. 
No  party's  name  appears  on  these  pamphlets;  no  party  dare  put 
its  name  on  such  a  pamphlet,  even  though  they  abvioualy  are 
in  line  with  the  present  Government's  policy  in  regard  to 
family  iallowances . 

Just  to  suggest  the  kind  of  thing  that  appears  in 
these  pamphlets,  here  is  oue    "Let  the  Anglo-Canadian  go 
and  get  killed  or  incapacitated,  while  we  stay  at  home  and 
get  good  wages  and  breed."   It  goes  on:  "As  one  Canadian 
puts  it, 'they  breed  while  we  bleed/.^** 

SOME  HON.  MMBER3:   Shame. 

MR.  HANCOCK:   If  this  kind  of  propaganda  is  going 
around  Ontario  —  well,  it  is  strange  we  should  receive  it. 
I  am  surprised  that  we  of  the  Opposition  should  receive  such 
a  pamphlet;  nevertheless,  I  say  here  and  now  that  if  this 


C^    Y'T3EB?'0*? 


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-  25£  -         2-23-45 

Mr. Hancock 

Is  the  kind  of  thing  that  is  going  around  this  province 
it  Just  shows  up  the  reactionary  people  in  this  province. 

I  see  there  is  a  pamphlet  headed  "Revenge  on  the 
Cradle,"  and  another  "Baby  Bonuses,"  and  there  is  still 
another  one  which  I  Jaswe  not  yet  received,  "Must  Canada  Split." 

Mr.  Speaker,  I  ask  this  House  if  Canada  tnust  split, 
who  is  doing  the  splitting? 

MR.  L.  GREIVK  ROBINSON  (Waterloo  South):  Mr. 
Speaker,  I  would  like  to  say  at  the  outset  with  respect  to 
family  allowances  that  as  far  as  my  party  is  concerned  we 
have  been  for  them  consistently  for  a  long  period  of  time. 
Not  only  family  allowancew,  but  family  allowances  as  a  part 
of  a  comprehensive  scheme  for  adequate  social  services,  and 
for  the  adequate  well-being  of  the  population  of  this  pro- 
vince, and  of  this  Dominion. 

For  example,  it  is  necessary  that  provision  be 
made  for  family  allowances,  that  wages  be  not  depressed  to 
the  extent  of  these  feuaily  Allowances.  I  wish  to  say  that 
from  my  information,  the  hon.  member  for  31gin  (Mr.  ■epburn) 
when  this  scheme  of  family  allowances  was  first  proposed  by 
the  federal  government,  was  rather  critical  of  it,  and  I  wish 
to  compliment  him  on  his  evident  change  of  heart  with  respect 
to  that  policy. 

I  would  like  to  deal  with  one  argument  of  the  hon. 
Priae  i^inister,  mentioned  im  his  radio  address  last  August 
9th,  in  which  he  objected  to  the  family  allowances,  where 
he  said:   "It  is  not  this  bill  alone,  but  the  whole  prin- 
ciple involved,  which  we  intend  to  resist."    He  said: 
"If  our  money  is  to  be  used  in  a  tax  scheme,  then  it  is  to 
be  used  for  total  war." 

Now,  I  wish  to  say,  Mr.  Speaker,  that  surely,  as 


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-263  -»  2-23-45 

Mr.  Robinson 

great  as  the  war  effort  of  Canada  is,  and  has  been  acknowledged 
to  be  —  surely  the  question  of  war  morale  is  of  high  im- 
portance in  order  that  the  last  ounce  of  war  effort  be  obtained, 
and  I  ask  y^u  if,  on  a  dominion-wide  basis,  those  who 
fight,  and  who  are  making  the  sacrifices  of  fighting,  knew 
that  what  they  were  fighting  for  was  probably  an  actual 
fact,  would  that  not  assist,  and  heighten  their  already 
heroic  efforts,  and  is  not  that,  in  essence,  a  part  of  the 
total  war  which  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  mentioned  in  his 
radio  address? 

Further,  in  his  address,  he  pointed  out,  Mr.  Speaker, 
this  other  thing;  that  the  money  which  would  be  raised  from 
Ontario  could  be  better  spent  in  the  province  of  Ontario,  and 
at  the  same  time.s&veral  paragraphs  later,  he  enunciates  the 
principle  of  Ontario  sharing  with  the  rest  of  the  provinces 
of  this  Dominion. 

Now,  what  does  he  mean?  Does  he  mean  one  or  the 
other?   I  insist  he  cannot  have  both. 

The  attitude  of  my  party  has  always  been  that  in 
matters  of  this  kind,  involving  great  sums  of  money,  they 
can  be  better  provided  for  by  the  Dominion,  which  has  control 
over  the  finances,  and  better  arrangements  can  be  made  for 
the  sharing  of  our  Commonwealth  co>muon  moneys  by  all  in 
this  Canada  of  ouss. 

There  is  one  final  point,  Mr.  Speaker,  which  I 
should  like  to  bring  to  the  attention  of  the  House,  and  that 
is  to  point  out  the  assumption  by  the  hon.  Prime  Minister, 
when  he  says  that  our  attitude  toward  any  measure  which  takes 
money  from  the  pockets  of  the  people  ibf  Ontario  for  the 
special  advantage  of  the  province  of  (Quebec  ,  is  based  upon 

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noqtr  eeead   el    ,  oedei/p  lo  eonlvoiq   sri:t  I'd   fi^«^nBv6fl  iBloaqs 

-  254  -         2-23-45 

Mr. Robinson 

considerations  which  affect  that  province  alojne. 

Aside  from  any  inference,  the  fact  of  the  financial 
position,  as  I  understand  it,  is  that  the  people  of  the 
province  of  Quebec  will  give  in  taxation  almost  as  much  — 
within  a  fraction  of  one  per  cent  --  as  they  will  receive 
back  in  terms  of  family  allowances.  Therefore,  if  we  do 
share  our  money  here  in  Ontario,  it  will  go  where,  in  my 
opinion,  it  is  much  needed,  and  that  is,  to  the  depressed 
western  areas,  and  in  the  maritimes. 

MR.  BERTRAM  E.  LEA.VBN3  (Woodbine)?  Mr.  Speaker, 
to  say  the  least,  I  have  been  extremely  amazed  at  the 
attitude  taken  by  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  of  Ontario  with 
regard  to  the  whole  question  of  family  allowances.  His 
speech  of  August  9th  last  year  took  issue  with  the  federal 
administration  usurping  provincial  rights,  but  that  is  the 
same  old  "red  herring"  used  on  every  piece  of  social 
legislation  between  the  province  and  the  federal  govern- 
ment, as  far  back  as  I  cari  remember. 

The  hon.  member  for  Slgin  (Mr.  Hepburn)  used  this 
as  a  protection,  while  he  was  in  office,  to  prevent  the 
people  in  Ontario  having  necessary  social  legislation,  because 
he  claimed  there  was  federal  interference  in  the  matter  of 
provincial  Jurisdiction. 

This  is  the  old  "red  herring"  and  I  am  surprised  at 
the  hon.  Prime  Minister  of  Ontario,  particularly  at  this 
time,  giving  utterance  to  such  sentiments  as  he  gave  utterance 
to  on  the  radio  on  August  9th  of  last  year. 

I  think  the  question  of  family  allowances,  and 
its  application  in  the  legislation  in  this  country,  is  long 
overdue.  I  know  here  that  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  has  stated 
if  we  have  to  pay  this  money,  there  are  several  ways  we  can 




'•&-'■:  ->ri*   :f  X&VO 

-  255  -         2-E3-45 

Mr.  t^earens 

pay  it.  We  can  pay  it  this  way:  for  family  allowances,  by 
running  our  own  family  allowance  agreement  as  a  provincial 
measure  I  independent  of  the  federal  administration. 

It  is  high  time  that  this  isolation  attitude  taken 
by  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  of  Ontario  and  others  was  done 
away  with*   After  all,  we  are  a  nation,  and  surely  having 
undergone  the  blood  bath  we  are  undergoing  now,  in  the 
interets  of  a  fiee  democracy,  surely  it  ill  behooves  any 
Prime  Minister  of  this  country  or  any  other  country,  to  break 
the  ties  of  national  unity  on  a  question  of  such  importance 
as  this,  the  qiuestion  of  family  allowances. 

I  am  very  much  shocked  to  hear  Hon.  Mr.  Drew  change 
the  tdrm  of  this  Act  to  "Baby  Bonus."  I  can  understand, 
perhaps,  that  we  may  have  a  difference  of  opinion  regarding 
the  family  allowance,  but  te(  besmirch  it  with  the  name  of 
"baby  bonus"  is  an  insult  to  the  intelligence  of  every  mother, 
from  the  Atlantic  to  the  Pacific. 

There  are  some  thing  which  are  still  saored  in 
this  country,  and  every  other  country.  The  family  is  a  sacred 
institution.  The  health  and  welfare  of  th^  family  should  be 
the  primary  consideration  of  all  gpvernmenta.  The  welfare  of 
our  children,  and  their  health  and  their  future,  should,  in  my 
opinion,  be  the  first  charge  against  all  the  wealth  of  this 
or  any  other  country,  and  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  (Mr.  Drew) 
has  been  guilty  of  playing  the  vilest  kind  of  politics  with 
one  of  the  most  sacred  things  which  come  under  our^ob3ervation 
in  the  Dominion  of  Canada. 

I  think  the  time  has  come  for  the  hon.  Prime  Minister 
of  this  province  to,  in  the  interests  of  this  Ho^i^e,  in  the 
interests  of  this  province,  and  in  the  interests  of  the 
Dominion  as  a  whole,  let  this  House  know  definitely  where  he 

»   866  -         2-23-45 

Mr.  Leavens. 

stands  on  the  question  of  children' sr  allowances.  He  was 
asked  the  question  before  this  House,  and  it  was  a  wonder- 
ful opportunity  to  answer  that  question  yesterday,  before 
the  Orders  of  the  Day.  In  fact,  I  thought  he  was  going 
to  answer  it,  but,  much  to  my  surprise,  after  a  long 
speech  following  the  reading  of  an  article  in  the  press, 
he  failed  to  give  us  the  information  we  have  been  waiting 
for  in  this  House  since  the  opening  of  the  present  session. 

I  think  it  is  a  simple  question  to  ask  of  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister.  It  should  not  take  him  long  to  clarify  his 
position  in  this  House  as  to  how  he  stands  on  the  question 
of  family  allowances.  If  he  has  changed  his  mind,  we  will 
all  respect  him  the  more  for  doing  so,  but  I  think  he  should 
tell  us  how  he  stands  on  this  very  important  matter. 

MISS  AGNES  MACPHAIL  (York  East):  Not  to  be  too 
serious,  Mr.  Speaker,  does  it  not  come  to  this,  that  the  man 
who  prides  himself  in  this  province,  the  hon.  Prime  Minister, 
has,  for  once,  made  a  blunder. 

MR.  HEPBURN  (Elgin):   Once? 

MISS  MACPHAIL:   If  we  could  get  him  to  admit  even 
that,  that  would  be  something..  He  thinks  he  is  the  most 
patriotic  man  in  Canada,  and  runs  around  wrapped  in  a  flag, 
the  Union  Jack,  and  feels  that  nobody  else  can  do  things 
like  him— 

HON.  GEORGE  H. DUNBAR  (Ottawa  South):   Don't  you 
like  the  Union  Jack? 

MISS  MACPHAIL:      Not  with  the  hon.  Prime  Minister 
in  it. 

MR.   DREW:     I  assure  you  you  will  never  have  me  in 
it  or  out  of  it. 

B4I33  MACPHAIL:     Well,   that  is   a  great  personal 

-  267  -         2-23-45 

Mr. Leavens 

relief.   Mr.  Speaker,  I  have  sat  in  other  Houses  and  I  have 
seen  other  Prime  Ministers  of  both  parties,  but  I  have  never 
s^en  anybody  so  perfect  as  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  of  this 
Iiegislature.  I  do  not  mean  in  my  own  opinion,  however, 
Mr*  Speaker. 

He  has  made  a  mistake  on  the  family  allowances. 

MR.  MaoLEOD:  He  "stuck  his  neck  out". 

MISS  MACPHAIL;  Yea.  He  flew  the  kite  since. 
It  was  a  political  kite,  but  it  did  not  "go  over"  and  his  own 
party,  and  the  people  whom  he  respects  —  I  cannot  think  of 
whom  they  might  be  --  apparently  advised  him  of  the  foolishness 
of  his  speech,  but  he  does  not  want  to  say  he  is  wrong.  The  hon. 
Prime  Minister  of  this  province  cannot  be  wrong,  and  he  is 
trying  in  every  possible  way  now  to  avoid  saying  anything  about 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  I  wish  to  say  that  I  listened  to 
and  read  the  address  by  the  hon.  Prime  Minister,  and  I  must 
eay,  the  second  time  at  least,  was  not  for  pleasure.  I 
listened  to  it  first,  and  then  read  it,  and  that  is  going 
quite  a  long  way.  There  are  two  things  whioh  I  dislike  very 
much  there.  One  is  he  has  called  it  "Baby  Bonus".  I  think 
that  is,  as  the  hon.  member  for  Woodbine  (Mr.  Leavens)  has  Just 
said,  an  insult  to  every  woman.  Having  babies  is  not  a  thing 
that  one  is  going  to  undertake  for  the  small  amount  of  money 
whioh  comes  through  family  allowances. 

The  other  thing  that  I  think  is  unforgiveable ,  is 
th^t  he  struts  around  saying  that  Ontario  will  do  it  alone; 
he  said  it  would  cost  one  hundred  million  dollars,  and  then 
he  said,  on  page  6,  what  he  could  do  with  one  hundred 
million  dollars.   One  thing  was  he  could  .nay  the  allowance, 
amounting  to  about  |45,000,000. 

-  268  -         2-23-45 

Miss  Maophall 

Then  pay  the  additional  amount  required  to  assume 
ene-half  of  the  oost  of  education  --  I  guess  that  was  in 
his  mind  —  amounting  to  |20,000,000. 

Thi^rdly,  he  oould  expand  our  Ontario  highway  system 
and  create  new  recreational  and  tourist  facilities,  at  a 
cost  of  |15,000,  000. 

Fourthly,  he  could  expand  our  present  municipal 
health  services,  for  |10,000,000.  That  needs  some  expanding. 

Fifthly,  apply  to  the  annual  reduction  of  debt  of 
the  province,  $10,000,000. 

So,  to  many  people  who  do  not  think  —  and  unfortu- 
nately there  are  some  of  those  who  are  around  --  theyi^rlll 
feel  that  If  this  was  done  by  the  province,  they  would  get 
the  family  allowances  and  all  these  things  In  addition. 

MB.  BROWN:   "All  this  and  heaven,  too"? 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Order, 

MI33.MACPHAIL:   If  anybody  knows  anything  about 
Canada  as  a  nation,  they  know  that  central  Canada  Is  draining 
all  the  rest  of  Canada  economically.   If  anybody  Is  going 
to  divide  the  North  American  Continent,  It  should  be  divided 
north  and  south  and  not  east  and  west,  like  It  Is  to-day. 
We  have  long  parallel  railroads  —  but  It  la  too  late  to  talk 
about  that. 

But  here  In  central  Canada  we  have  the  heads  of 
banks  and  Insurance  companies,  manufacturing  concerns,  and 
large  businesses,  draining  the  maritime  and  draining  western 
Canada  of  their  wealth,  and  that  Is  why  central  Canada  Is 
halted  by  every  other  part  of  Canada,  because  they  think  that 
we  are  draining  th^  cream  from  them,  and  then,  to  throw  It 
In  their  face  and  Insult  them  all  over  again,  by  this  speech  of 
August  9th  saying  we  can  do  It  ourselves,  and  do  much  more  In 

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-   259   -  8-3-45 

Miss  Jifacphail 

addition,   only  emphasizes  what   they  already  think  about 
central  Canada,   and  it  would  have  been  very  interesting 
for  the  hon.  Mr.  Drew  to  tiave   heard    sooie  of  the  things  I 
have  heard  in  western  Canada  iimaediately   after  this   speech 
was  made.       It  has  given  one  more  instance  of  how  far  it 
did  go  in  national  disunity,  and  it  was  not  only  disunity 
with  regard  to  Quebec  —  altho^Jgh  that  was  the  clearest 
point  in  it —  and  I   am  leavirig  it,   because  the   rest  have 
talked  about   it   —  but   it  was  disunity  toward  every  part 
of  Sanada  that  could  not   do  as  well   as  lOntario  for  them- 
selves,  and  if  there   is  anything  I  cannot  endure  14  a 
person  it  is  when  they  can  do  better  than  their  neighbours, 
they  are   forever  tellirig  them  about   it,   and  that  is  what 
this  was. 

Therefore,  I   feel  if  there   is  any  way  of  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister  making  it   clear  to  the  House  that  he  was  wrong 
on  August  9th,  --  and   he   knows  it   --it  will  really  be  that 
we  can  all  respect  him  for  it  --  if  he  will   say  he  was 
wrong . 

I  have   always  wondered  why  governments  never  can  be 
wrong.     The  rest   of  us  can  do  wrong,   and  we  can  say  to  a 
friend,    "We  were  wrong;  we  made   a  mistake,   and  we  are  sorry,"* 
but  governments  do  not  do   that;    they  ara   always  right,   and 
always  perfect,  and  I   think  that  is  one  of  the  hardest  things 
for  the  people,   the  electors,    just   the  common,   ordinary   "guys", 
to  bear* 

MR.   ARTHUR  WILLIAMS    (Ontario);     Mr.    Speaker,   I  rise 
in  this  debate  to  express  a   particular  point  of  view  which  I 
really  had  yesterday.     Since  I  have  been  in  this  House  I 
have  noted  that  an  opportunity  is  taken  before  thw  Orders  of 
the  Day  are   called,  to  make   a  speech  on  the.  pretence  that  the 
speech  that  is  about  to  follow  is   of  xnajor,   public   importance. 

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-  260  -         £-23-45 

Ms3  ^acphall 

I  listened  yesterday  to  the  speech  of  the  hon. Prime 
Minister,  ard  not  for  the  life  of  me  could  I  see  that  one 
word  that  he  said  had  the  fainest  connection  with  anything 
resembling  "public  importanoe".  Rather,  it  was  very  obvious 
that  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  was  merely  taling  advantage  of  a 
particular  opportunity  to  get  his  customary,  and  well-liked 
"kiolc''  at  the  federal  government. 

I  can  well  see  that  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  is 
ansK^ious  to  discredit  the  federal  government,  but  I  do  not 
think  that  the  opportunity  of  making  a  speech  before  th«  Orders 
of  the  Day  are  called,  should  be  used  for  that  purpose.  Let  it 
be  a  matter  of  public  importance,  or  shut  up. 

MR.  WSB3TSR:   The  same  to  you. 

MR.  WILLIAMS:   I  know  you  would  like  me  to  shut  up. 
Better  men  than  you  have  liked  me  to  shut  up,  euid  wanted  me 
to  shut  up,  before  you  came  on  the  scene,  and  I  still  have  not 
shut  up,  and  you  cannot  make  me  shut  up. 

Now  Mr.  Speaker,  who  is  going  to  make  the  speech? 

MR.  JOLLIFFB:   Oh,  go  ahead. 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Proceed. 

MR.  WHI.IAM3:   There  is  a  very  estiaiable  gentleman 
sitting  in  this  House,  and  I  am  particularly  pleased  to  see 
that  the  estimable  gentleman  sits  in  the  back  benches  of  the 
Government.   There  are  other  very  estimable  gentlemen  sitting 
o4»tha  other  side, too.   I  wish  that  I  could  say  that  they 
were  all  estimable  gentlemen,  but  this  particular  estimable 
gentleman  achieved  quite  an  outstanding  political  victory 
while  this  House  was  in  Session  last  year,  and  I  deplored, 
during  that  particular  election,  that  almost  every  day  while 
the  election  was  on,  the  hon. Prime  Minister  always  took  the 
opportunity  of  rising  before  the  Orders  of  the  Day  for  the 

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-  261  ^         2»23-45 

Miss  Macphall 

purpose  of  maiclng  a  political  speech  aboat  ''booze"  If  yoa 
please i  And  when  I  saw  children  up  In  that  gallery  coming 
here  for  education,  I  began  to  wonder  what  they  thought  of 
the  leading  citizen  of  this  province  expounding  so 
magnificently  about  "booze". 

Don't  they  Icnow  what  "booze"  Is?  I  thought  that 
there  had  been  so  much  of  that  stuff  consuraecl  that  everyone 
would  be  familiar  with  the  term  "boozel"    It  Is  an  old 
country  term  for  beer,  and  other  things  that  make  you  wobble 
like  beer. 

After  the  hon.  Prime  Minister's  speech  yesterday  I 
read  again  the  two  Items  which  ostensibly  were  the  cause  of 
the  hon.  Prime  Minister  speaking  yesterday,  and  I  could  not, 
for  the  life  of  me,  see  Just  what  Importance  there  was,  to 
cause  him  to  rise. 

I  have  read  his  speech  of  August  9th,  and  I  suppose 
It  was  the  Conservative  organization  that  sent  It  to  me,  a 
^ery  nicely  printed  little  pampnlet.  If  the  stuff  inside  was 
«8  nice  as  the  appearance  of  the  thing,  it  would  have  been  all 
•ylght ,  but  it  was  Just  not . 

I  want  to  say  here  and  now,  with  regard  to  that 
particular  pamphlet  which  contained  the  speech  of  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister,  delivered  over  the  air,  that  it  does  not  matter 
how  much  the  hon.  Prime  Minister,  or  any  other  hon. member  of 
his  party,  cares  to  cover  up  the  things  that  were  said  over 
the  air  and  printed  in  this  pamphlet,  the  definite  impression 
Is  left  throughout  this  Dominion  that  the  Government  of  Ontario  has 
expressed  Itself,  through  the  mouth  of  the  hon.  Prime  Minister 
o^  the  Province,  as  definitely  against  mothers'  allowances  -- 

MR.  BLACKWELL:   "Family  allowances." 

MR.  WILLIAMS:   Yes,  family  allowances;  I  am  sorry. 
There  is  n6  doubt  about  that. 

all  eeiM 


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-  262  -         2-23-45 

Mr .Williams 

As  i  read  the  speech,  and  as  I  have  gone  about  the 
province  and  heard  remarks  regarding  it,  there  is  no  doubt  at 
all  in  the  minds  of  the  people  throughout  this  Oanada  that 
this  Government  is  definitely  against  Quebec.   Nor  is  there 
any  doubt  in  the  minds  of  the  people  of  this  province  that 
this  Government  is  carrying  on  racial  warfare  under  the  guise 
of  unity.  No  doubt  about  that  at  all. 

I  would  not  --  because  I  believe  in  unity  --  for  a 
single  moment  use  the  terms  or  words  that  are  in  this  speech  of 
the  hon.  Prime  Minister,  not  even  on  the  floor  of  this  House. 
On  pages  9  and  10,  if  the  English  language  means  what  I  believe 
it  means,  there  is  no  doubt  at  all  that  by  hook  or  by  crook  -- 
generally  by  crook  --  these  people  if  they  can  possibly  get 
into  the  saddle  of  the  government  of  this  country  are  going  to 
do  so,  and  it  does  not  matter  what  harm  it  causes  in  the  doing. 

I  want  to  say  to  the  hon. Prime  Minister,  and  I  want 
to  say  very  respectfully  to  some  of  the  hon. members  of  his 
cabinet  that  I  have  had  dealings  with  some  of  the  hon .members 
of  his  cabinet  and  I  think  --  no,  I  do  not  "think"  it;  I  know 
it  --  that  the  ones  I  have  had  dealings  with  are  very,  very 
nice  chaps.   As  a  matter  of  fact,  I  do  not  refer  to  the  hon. 
Minister  of  Labour  (Mr.  Daley)  as  "the  hon .Minister"  when  T 
see  him;  I  refer  to  him  as  "Todd."   Between  him  and  certain 
other  members  of  the  Government  and  myself  there  is  the 
greatest  feeling  of  friendliness,  and  I  want  it  to  continue, 
but  I  want  to  say  if  this  Government  and  this  Tory  party  in 
Canada  wants  to  do  anything  for  the  well-being  of  tho^a  people, 
Goa  knows  there  is  enough  to  be  done  here  in  the  province  of 
Ontario  without ^tearing  up  everything  throttghout  the  Dominion. 

I  cannot  help,  Mr.  Speaker,  but  refer  to  something 
about  mothers'  allowances  --  no, no,  I  made  a  mistake  last  time 


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-  263  *  2-23-r45. 

Mr.  Williams. 

and  called  "family  allowances"  "mothers'  allowances", 

I  have  had  oecaaion  to  try  and  get  some  allowances 
for  a  mother.  Of  course,  she  had  not  done  much.  She  had 
just  brought  into  the  world  a  family,  and  reared  them,  aad 
three  of  her  boys  were  serving  --  three  of  her  boys  are 
serving  in  the  armed  forces  of  Canada.  She  was  getting  $40 
a  month  in  1944.  I  dare  say  she  took  trips  to  Florida  on 
the  balance  of  what  she  was  able  to  save  after  keeping  her- 
self. But  she  wanted  to  help  Canada's  war  effort,  and  she 
took  a  job,  -  oh,  just  a  small,  little  job,  and  yet  an 
important  one,  helping  in  a  nursery,  looking  after  the  babies 
of  mothers  who  are  in  war  work,  -an.d  she  got  $30  a  month  from 

Then  the  Mothers'  Allowance  Board  cut  her  mother's 
allowance  down  to  $10  a  month.  I  took  it  up  with  the  Chairman 
of  the  Board,  another  very,  very  estimable  gentleman,  and  he 
wrote  back  and  told  me  that  the  provisions  under  which  the  Board 
operated  demanded  that  he  do  such  things  as  that.   I  wrote  back 
to  him,  and  said,  "All  I  can  say  is,  then,  that  there  is  a 
drastic  need  of  the  regulations'  being  amended.'* 

There  is  a  job  for  you  to  do  in  regard  to  things  like 
that.  You,  first  of  all,  plead  that  our  mothers'  sons  go  and 
fight  for  Canada,  and  then,  if  they  go,  even  though  they  are 
getting  allowances,  dependents'  allowances,  you  then  help  to 
keep  them  in  a  state  of  semi-poverty  by  cutting  down  the  allow- 
ances that  they  were  getting  before  the  boys  went  away  to  serve. 
Let  us  play  the  game  in  this  thing.  I  went  on  record  in  the 
last  Session  of  the  House  when  I  said  that  I  did  not  care  who 
gets  the  credit,  as  long  as  the  people  get  the  benefit. 
I  repeat  those  words  here  again  to-day.    I  am  on  record, 
in  writing,  to  the  hon.  Minister  of  Labour  to  that 

-  264  -  2-23-45. 

same  effect.  What  does  it  matter,  as  long  as  the  people 
get  the  benefit?   That  is  the  important  thing,  not  that 
Mr.  King  has  done  it  as  a  political  bribe,  as  the  charges 
made  in  the  Speech  from  the  Throne.   I  believe  that  if  the 
hen.  Prime  Minister  of  this  irovince  had,  on  hearing  the 
announcement  of  family  allowances,  written  a  letter  to  Mr. 
King  congratulating  him,  there  is  a  distinct  possibility 
that  the  vicious,  political  antagonism  that  does  exist,  ap- 
parently, between  Prime  Minister  King  and  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  of  Ontario  would  have  been  considerably 
eased,  if  not  wiped  away.  But,  instead,  the  wound  is 
made  all  the  deeper  because  there  is  this  outcry  against 
it.  And,  they  do  not  come  out  definitely  and  say  they  are 
against  it;  they  just  hang  that  hat  of  theirs  on  the 
constitutional  peg.  That  is  all  they  do.   It  won't  do  to 
try  to  decry  this  question  of  family  allowances,  because 
of  some  constitutionality.   The  people  of  this  province 
and  the  people  of  this  country  are  not  going  to  wait  for  the 
adjustments  of  a  constitutional  question.   They  have  a  right 
to  expect  that  they  are  going  to  get  the  benefits  now,  - 
benefits  now  for  them,  and  the  consideration  of  constitutional 
difficulties,  if  they  be  necessary,  later  on. 

I  am  very  sorry  to  find  out  there  is  this  hitting 
all  the  time  about  racial  difficulty.  The  names  of  Mr© 
Duplessis  and  Mr,  Godbout  are  pounded  about.  Do  not  let  ua 
do  that;  let  us  try  and  do  something  decent  for  the  people. 
If  there  is  any  harsh  feeling  between  any  section  of  the  English- 
speaking  people  of  tMs  country  and  the  French-speaking  people 
of  the  country,  then  let  us  do  everything  we  possibly  can  to 
wipe  it  out  and  clear  it  away,  but  do  not  let  us  do  anything 

-  265  -  2-23-45 

Mr.  Williams 

that  might  accentuate  the  differences  that  possibly  exist. 
There  is  a  great  field  for  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  to  follow 
in  regard  to  this,  a  great  field. 

I  am  quite  certain  that  if  the  hon.  Prime  Minister 
would  but  declare  himself,  -  and  I  am  not  going  to  use  any 
of  the  terms  that  have  been  used  by  anybody  else  in  this 
House,  -  if  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  would  but  declare  himself 
definitely,  and  completely,  in  regard  to  these  very  vital 
matters  of  family  allowances  and  this  wound  of  racial 
difference,  I  am  quite  certain  he  would  do  the  greatest 
service  at  this  particular  time,  and  I  hope  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  will  adopt  that  attitute  and  cut  out  all  this  other 
business  about  playing  politics. 

MR.  G.H.  riTETCtlELL  (York .North ) :  Mr. 
Speaker,  this  matter  of  family  allowances  has  been  given  much 
time  in  this  Chamber,  and  very  fittingly  so.  However,  I  am 
much  more  perturbed  about  the  general  atmosphere  of  this 
Chamber  and  the  conduct  of  the  proceedings  during  the  time 
this  House  has  been  in  Session  up  to  the  present  time. 

Dealing  with  the  welfare  and  social  problems, 
generally;    I  have  noticed  in  my  years  in  this  country,  - 
approximately  thirty-five  of  them,  -  that  the  battle  has  been 
all  the  time  between  the  two  old  parties,  as  has  been  stated 
before.  Insofar  as  technicalities  are  concerned,  and  the 
construction  of  the  British-North  America  Act:   I  have  often  felt 
that  these  old  astute,  bewigged  gentlemen  of  the  Old  Country, 
at  the  time  of  drawing  this  Act,  drew  it  in  such  a  way  as  to 
cause  the  condition  that  has  been' maintained  in  this  country 
through  these  many  years,  from  the  point  of  view  that  they 
wanted  to  keep  control  of  this  country.  That  is  my  own 

?  ,^,„,v>_c■ ,.  • 

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•>   266  -  £-23>45 

personal  opinion  as  an  Bnglishnian. 

These  battles  between  the   two  old   parties  have  gone 
oa,   and  in  the  going-on  through  the  years   they  have  failed 
to   bring  down  the  kind  of  Legislation  that  was  of  a  true 
and  real   benefit  to  the  conuaon  people   of  the   country. 
We  find ,   at  the   present  moment ,   that  a  new  mask  has  been 
put  oa  by  both  old  parties.        One  has  changed  its  name, and 
the  other  is   now  pretending  to  become  a  little  more  pro- 
gressive*    In  fact,   both  of  them  are  pretending  to  do  that. 

Let  us  deal  with  the  facts  as  we  have   seen  them.     I 
cannot   fail   to  taice   this   opportunity  to  remind  the  hon. 
member  for  iSlgin   (Mr.  Hepburn)   of  the  moat  unsatisfactory 
ooaditioas  that   existed  prior  to  the  Citbreak  of  this  war. 
In  my  capacity,   as  a  member  of  the   ccah«^ll   of  the  township 
of  North  YorJc  --  we  had  the  very  unfortunate   experience  of 
having  received  deputations  of  young  men  residing  in  the 
municipality  asking  for  food,   clothing  and  shelter,   because  the 
Government  of  the  day,   let  by  the  honourable  gentleman  from 
Slgia   (Mr.  Hepburn),   had  refused  them,   definitely,   any  such 
maintenance.     I   see  that  he  is  now  attending  meetings  through- 
out this   province,   speaking  very  highly  of  our  glorious  men 
serving  overseas,    and  stating  how  determined  he  is  to  see, 
when  they  come  back,   that  theyshould   have  a  square  deal,   that 
they  shall  have  that  kind  of  heritage  to  which  they  are   justly 
entitled.     I  do  sincerely  hope   and  trust  he  has  suffered  a 
change   of   heart   since   the  years  of   1937,    1938  and   1939. 

Just  one  other  matter  I  would  like   to   speak  on,   and 
that   is  the  tendency  of  the   present  Session  to  indulge   in  the 
orgy  of  wise-cracking.      I   know  it  is  very  nice,   - 
there  is  no  one  fonder  of  telling  s   story  and  getting  a 
laugh  than  I  am  -  but   we  are  not  assembled  here  for  that 

£67  -^  2-23-45 

Mr .Mite  hell 

purpose.     If  ever  a  Goveraraent   had   the  responsibility  of 
bringiiig  down  legislation  that  will  help  the   people  of 
this  province  and  the   coantry,   this   is  the  time,   this   is 
the  day,  and  it   rauat  be  done.        -He  must   not   apeak  too 
much  of  the  future.     This  Session^   socaething   should  be  done 
in  a  ooiistruotive  manner  that  is  goirig  tc  show  our   people 
here  and  those   fighting  overseas  that  when  they   come  bacic 
that    they  are  not  goiag  to  be   b&ci^  on  the  bread  lines 
within  twelve  months  of  coming   back*  These  a^n  are  going 

over  there,  Mr.   Speaker,   as  I  ar.d  other  hon.    members  of 
this  House  did  during  the  last  war,   and  are  being  told  as 
we  were  then,   that  they  are  fighting  i  >  order  that  the 
world  may  b©  fit   for  hero<33  to  li^s   in- 

I   am  satisfied,   the  way  we  are  going,  as  far  as  the   province 
of  Ontario  in   conceraed,   the  DoKd.aicni  Governaant  aad  the 
United  Nationals,  generally,  with  the  present-day  leaders, 
apparently  we  are  not  going  to  do  that   very  thing.     The   very 
tactics  tend  to  show  it  <>        The  old  fight   is   on  again  for 
power  and  control,   for  domination  of  business,   fighting  for 
control  for  a  certain  kind   of  airline,   and  everything  else, 
predicated  on  one  country,   or  bloc  of  countries,   dominating 
one  country  or  bloc  of  countries. 

'He  should  look  toward  the  future  with  some  confidence 
and  some  hope  that   conditions  will  be  better,   and  these 
tactics  must  cease,  and  the   true   spirit  of  co-operation  must 
prevail.        If  that    fails,  Mr»   Speaker,  I   submit,   all  these 
men  now  overseas  are  definitely   fighting  in  vain. 

MR.   CY3IL  OVERALL    (Niagara  Falls):      If  I  remember 
correctly,  Mr.   Speaker,   aorae  years  ago  the  Conservative 
Government,  under  R.B.Bennett,   passed   a  Federal  Act   called 

268  -  2-23-45 

Mr  .Mitchell 

the  UH«mploymeat  Insurance  Act.       There  was  some   question 

at  that   time  as  to  whether  the  Federal  Pal li amen t  had 

authority  to  collect  money  under  that  Act  and   pay  it  out 

as  benefits  all  across  the  Dominion.        That  matter,  I 

believe  was  referred  to  the  Courts,  and   kicked  around  for 

some  time,   and  finally  became   effective  id  the  year  1940. 

I  would  like  to  read  a  statemeat  that  was  made  in 

the  famous  speech  of  August   9th,  anii  this  is  how  it  goes: 

"Afly  citizea  who  objects  to  aay  law  which  13  not 
in  accordance  with  our  constitution  can  go  before 
the  Courts  aad  have  that  law  upset  <,       It  is 
therefore  of  the  utmost  importacoe  that   all  laws 
passed  either  by  the  Dominion  or  Provincial 
Governments  shouj.d  be  in  accordance  with  our 
oonstitufcioft,   not  only  because  tha   various  govern- 
ments may  regard  that  as,   but   because  it 
is  within  the   power  of  anyone  who  wishes  to  do  so 
to  have  the  legality  of   aay  se-isure  tested  in  the 
Courtflo     For  that  raasoas,   confusioa,   and  in  some 
cases  very  great  hardships,  must  follow  if  laws 
would  appear  to  produce  useful  results  are 
passed  in  defiance  of  the   very  clear  limitations 
imposed  upon  either  the   Dominion  or  the  Provincial 

I   would   like  to  know  if  the  hon.  Prime  Minister, 
Mr.   Speaker,    stands  by  the  spirit  of  that   declaration  • 
in  his   speech  of  August   9th,  and  if  he  is  prepared  to  refer 
these  contentious  matters  before  the  court. 

HON.   GEORGE  A.DREW    (Prime  Minister);      I  think, 
if  other  hon.   members  who  wish  to  speak  on  this  debate  shall 
do  30  ,  I  shall  be  glad  to  make  a  statement  later. 

MRS.   R.M.   LUCOCK    (Bracondale ) s      I   rise   to   give 
my  contribution  toward  this  debate   on  family  allowances,   and 
I   speak  as  a  mother.        We  are   told  the   greatest  asset  in  the 
country  is  our  children »    and  I  think  everyone  will  agree  with 
me  that   that   is   3o»     Vfithout   population  you  cannot  have  a 
country,   and  we  have  to   have  a  place  for  our  people  to   live 
la.     I  do  not  think  there  is   aayoody  in  society  that  understands 

269  -         2-23-45 

Mr.  Overall 

the  problem  at  home  as  much  as  a  mother  does.  '.Then  I  read 
the  statistics,  they  tell  me  one  third  of  the  population 
live  on  leas  than  nine  hundred  dollars  a  year.  That 
should  tell  U3  we  do  need  family  allowances »  ivlothers  are 
particularly  concerned  about  their  children  'round  about 
themo   They  are  concerned  abdut  their  health,  their 
happiness f,  their  culture*  their  clothing  and  their  educa- 
tion.  All  these  things  help  to  raaite  a  life,  and  they  are 
concerned  about  buildixig  all  these  little  lives  into  good 
citizens o  The  infant  mortality  in  this  country  is  twenty- 
seven  per  cent  aoove  that  of  the  United  States.  I  think  we 
should  hang  our  heads  in  shame.  There  "*  ■  a  cause  for  this 
in  the  majority  of  the  cases,  as  developed  by  forcing 
the  people  to  live  on  leas  th&a   it  is  poaaible  to  live  on 
and  be  healthy  and  happy.  I  cannot  uuderatand,  --  W©  are 
the  elected  representatives  of  the  cifeijsens,  --  I  cannot 
understand  the  mentality  of  a  person  who  would  ask  anyone 
to  live  oil  auch  a  meagre  su'paistence  as  nine  hundred  dollars 
a  year,  or  less.  You  cannot  possibly  feed  them,  clothe 
them  and  house  them  and  educate  them  and  bring  th^a  up  to  be 
respectable  citizens,  and  have  them  develop  the  mentality  of 
respectable  citizens  under  those  circumstances. 

They  are  the  children  that  produce  the  criminals, 
and  will  do  so,  perhaps,  in  the  days  to  come. 

I  think  a  very   reputable  body  is  the  Ontario  Welfare 
Council,  who  gave  them  the  least  possible  subsistence  level 
at  t28o35  a  week  for  a  faoiily  of  five.  I  think  it  is 
trememdously  low  at  that  scale. 

I  also  read  in  the  statistics  of  1939  reagarding 
Toronto  schools.  It  is  said  the  weight  and  size  of  the  child 

-  270  -  2-23-45 

Mrs*  Lucock 

depends  on  the  occupation,   or,  that   is,   the   inoome,    and, 
therefore,  all  children  in  the   lower-income  group, 
thirty-seven  per  cent   of  the  children,   are   very  much 
smaller  than  they  should    be.       They   are  the  ones  on  relief 
at  that  time.       Under  the  average  type,  a  group  of  twbhty- 
nine   per  cent  were  labourers,   and  then  the   children  of 
the  next  class,  managers  and  professional  workers,   were  the 
tallest  of  the  group. 

I   thinJc  that   is   a  thing  we  oixght  to  bear  in  ttiind, 
because^  after  all,  we  are  only  tenants  of  this  world 
for  a  little  while,  and  the  rent  we  pay  is  the   service  we 
give  to  others,   and  in  this  short  time  we  should  try  and 
help  to  leave  our  world  a  little   better*  and  the  greatest 
thing  we  can  do  is  to  turn  to  the  childhood,  and   help 
develop  these  little  citizens  who  are  going  to  talce  our 
places  when  we  pass  on.       I  think  this  is  th^  greatest  thing 
in  life,   and  the  greatest  way  in  which  we  can  spend  our  time 
is  by  doing  that   very  thing. 

I  do  not  want  to  see   this   country  divided,   and 

there  is  not   anybody  fighting  harder  to  keep  it  together 

as  a  great  country  than  I   am.       I  am  a  worldly  citizen,  and 

look  upon  people  of  Europe  as  my  brothers,   -  not 

only  the   people  of  Quebec ,   the  people  right  across  the 

Dominion,  I   look  upon  them  as  my  brothers   as  much  as  the 

people  of  this  province.       I  feel  there   are  two  types  of 

people   in  society,  autocrats  and  democrats,  and  the  autocratic 

are  those  who  are  more  self-centres  than  the  democratic 

people.     They  seem  to  be  a  little  narrower  in  their  vision 

of  world  problems  and  citizenship  problems  than  the  democratic 

people . 

-   871  -  2-'<Z<  46 

Mra  ;.ickocic 

As  I  sit   here,  and  as  I  am  aew,  I  a-t    ilagusted, 
and,  as  I   have  soraetiraes  said,   if  the  peo  ?]  »    )f  Ontario 
would  coma  down  here  and  really  see  the  waj    t    lot  of  us 
conduct  ourselves,  I   am  afraid  theywould  th  .*(  w  us   out, 
bag  and  baggage.     I   think  our  responsibility  is  the  same 
as  a  parent's  responsibility  in  the  tiome ,   to  look 
after  and  help  the  welfare  of  every  living   soul  in  this 
province,  arid,   not  forgetting  our   vision,   gc    past  the 
borders  of  Ontario,  and  from  the  Dominion  into  the  world, 
I  want  to  give   all  the  contribution  I   can  to  help  the 
people  of  the  country  and   help  build  a  country  that  the 
people  will  say  they  are  glad  they  are  here,    instead  of 
sayirjg  they  rather  wish  they  had   never  oorae. 

I   think  wa,   as  elected  representatives  of  the  people, 
-  if  we  would   just  remember  we  have  a  responsibility  to 
each  and  everyone,   not   only  to  the  electorates  of  our 
constituency,   but  to  every  citizen  in  this   province,-  we 
do  not  have  to  bicker  and  go  on  the  way  we  do  a  great 
deal,   but  let  us  give  real,   constructive,  worthwhile  thought 
towards  the   problems  that  face  us. 

MR     HARRY  C.   NIXON  (Brant):     WIr.   Speaker,   I   had 
not   intended  to  address  you  on  this   occasion,   as   this  is 
Friday  afternoon,   and  the  hour  is  getting   late,   and  the 
matter  is  before  the  House  in  a   form  of  motion.     If  we  let  it 
die  this  afternoon  it  may  be  extremely  difficult   to  again 
get  this  question  of  fa-uily  allowances   before  the  House,  und«ir 
the  rules  of  debate.     I  had  hoped  that  before   this  the  hon. 
Prime  Winiater  would  have  seen  fit   to  have  declared  the 
position  of  the  Crovernment  in  this   vitally  important  matter, 
but  so   far  he  has  not   done  so* 

-  272  -         2-23-45 


HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):   I  do  not 
want  to  interrupt,  but  I  might  explain  that  I  had  in 
mind  if  the  hen.  member  wishes  this  explanation  I  will 
be  very  glad  to  give  it  to  him. 

MR.  NIXON;  It  was  my  intention  to  keep  the  matter 
open  by  moving  a  formal  movement. 

MR,    DREW 5  It  was  my  proposal  to  keep  it  open,  so 
it  would  not  die. 

MR.  NIXON:   Then  my  motion  would  be  acceptable  to 
the  hon»  Prime  Minister.  I  was  going  to  move,  seconded 
by  Mr.  Oliver,  that  the  amendment  to  the  motion  that 
this  House  adjounn  be  made  by  adding  the  words  that  this 
House  stands  adjourned  until  fthe  Governuent  is  prepared 
to  state  its  policy  on  family  allowances. 

MR,  DREVsf;   No,  I  think,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  what 
I  have  in  mind  is  exactly  what  you  have  in  mind,  and  I 
think  that  it  is  perfectly  obvious  the  hon.  members 
had  wished  to  discuss  this  matter.  I  said,  on  an  earlier 
occasion,  that  this  matter  would  be  discussed,  and  I  do 
not  know  how  anyone  who  listened  to  what  I  said  yesterday 
could  assume  that  that  was  more  than  a  presentation  of  the 
statement  in  regard  to  certain  material  that  is  before  us. 
One  thing  I  cannot  help  commenting  upon  is  the  critism 
which  comes  because  I  did  not  say  enough,  and  then  the 
criticism  that  came  saying  I  have  taken  so  long.  I  have 
said  we  propose  to  discuss  this,  and  I  mean  that,  and  it  is 
not  my  custom,  in  spite  of  what  may  be  said  by  any  hon. 
member  present,  to  back  away  from  a  statement  I  have  made  or 
any  undertaking  I  have  given,  and  it  is  certainly  the 
intention  of  not  only  the  Government,  but  I  know  it  is  the 

ni   t&ti   I  d'h. 

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-   873   -  2-23-45 

Mr.    Orew 

wish  of  several  hon.  membera  on  the  Governiaent   aide. 

I   believe,   from  the  ij^dications  I  have  received,   there 

are  others  who  still  wish  to  speak,   aad   I  would  move 

the  adjoiirnment  of  the  debate,  whioh  would  bring  the  debate 

on  on  Monday. 

MR,   E.    B.    JOLLIFFE    (Leader  of  the  Opposition):      If 
the  hon.  member  for  Brant    (Mr.  Nixon)   has  no  objection* 
I  would  like   to  add  this  suggestion;        I  think  what  he 
had  in  mind  was  that  the  matter  should  not   be  closed 
merely  because  of   the   lateness  of  the  hour,   and,   I  take 
it,   the  hon.  Prime  Minister  agrees  with  that   suggestion. 
I   have  not  the   slightest  objection  to  the  discussion 
continuing  on  this  subject  at  the   convenience   of  the 
House.     As  a  matter  of   fact,   I  am  in  favour  of   it,   and 
I  have  no  objection  to  the  discussion  wtoich  has  been 
brought  on  to-day,   bat  I  think  there  are  one  or  two  points 
that  ought  to   be  made   clear,   and  I   am  not   now  addressing 
myself  on  the  subject  matter. 

The  first   point   is,  whatever  the  result  of  this 
particular  discussion  may  be,   I   take   it  that  the  vrtiole 
suDject  can  also  be  discussed  in  the  debate  on  the  address 
in  reply  to  the  Speech  from  the  Throne.     That   is   point  1. 

So  that  the  motion  moved  to-day,   to  whioh  I 
have  not  the  slightest  objection,    by  the  hon.   member  for 
Bellwoods    (Mr.  MacLeod)  was,   in  fact,   a  kind  of  dress 
rehearsal  or  curtain  raiser  to  what  might  be  said   in  the 
Throne  Speech  debate  by  many  hon.   members.     However,  I 
think  it    just  as  well  the  question  should  be   ventilated 
as  soon  as  possible* 

The   second  suggestion  I  wish  to  mgJce ,   and  I  would 

-  274  -         2-23-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

be  pleased  to  hear  fro;n  the  hon.  mamber  for  Brant  (Mr. 
Nixon),  is  that  the  motion  moved  by  the  hon.  membar  for 
Bellwoods  (Mr.  MacLeod),  under  Rule  36,  with  the  consent 
of  the  apeaker,  was  for  the  purpose  of  discussing  a  matter 
of  urgent  purblic  importance. 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  I  would  suggest  such  q  motion 
is  a  technical  one,  a  formal  motion  for  the  purpose  of 
conducting  any  di&cussion,  and  for  that  purpose,  only.  If 
such  a  resolution  could  be  brought  to  a  division  in  a 
hurry,  -  I  know  nobody  has  that  in  mind,  -  but  if  it  could 
be  brought  in  a  hurry,  it  would  be  unfair  to  many  hon. 
members,  because  they  have  had  no  formal  notice,  and  if 
the  subject  matter  is  to  be  debated  in  the  House,  then 
the  hon.  members  are  entitled  to  notice  and  to  be  able 
to  prepare  themselves  for  what  is  coming.  That  is  ray 
understanding  of  the  rules ^  The  motion  is  a  technical 
one,  for  the  purpose  of  bringing  on  a  disouasion. 

MR.  NIXON:   On  that  point  of  order,  my  recollection 
is  not  too  clear,  but  it  is  my  recollection  there  is  a 
section  dealing  with  this  particular  matter,  that  a  subject 
having  Dean  dealt  with,  and  dropped,  that  motion  cannot 
be  brought  up  again  in  the  same  Session. 

BSR.  SPEAKER:  I  am  very  anxious  to  protect  you 
against  yourself  and  others,  if  you  will  allow  me  a  moment 
to  confer.  I  am  of  the  opinion  a  matter  left  to-day  cannot 
be  brought  again  before  the  House.  I  have  in  mind  what 
you  desire  to  do.  The  motion  raised  was  whether  the 
discussion,  if  adjourned  now,  could  be  continued  later  on 
in  the  Session.  I  give  you  my  word  I  have  no  desire  now 
or  at  any  other  time  to  resort  to  sharp  practice,  bit,  rather, 
express  the  will  of  the  House.  If  you  accept  the  motion  of  the 

-  275  -         2-23-45 

hon.  Prima  ii^iaistar,  to  adjourn  this  particular  matter, 
I  think  the  matter  will  be  dealt  with  later  on. 

MR.  NIXON:   That  is  satisfactory. 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Moved  by  Mr.  Nixon  the  debate  be 

Motion  carried. 

MR, SPEAKER:   Orders  of  the  Day. 

HON.  L.  M.  FROST  (Provincial  Treasurer):  I  would 
ask  to  postpone  the  matter  that  I  had  intended  to  speak 
about.   I  think  what  I  have  to  say  would  be  all  right 
on  Tuesday.  I  placed  a  copy  of  tbe  Mining  Regulations, 
part  8  of  the  Mining  Regulations,  on  the  desk  of  the 
hon, members,  and  it  will  give  then  an  opportunity  to 
look  them  over. 

MR.  SPEAKERS:   Orders  of  the  Day. 

MR,  DREiV:   In  view  of  what  my  colleagues  have  said 
I  taove  the  adjournment  of  the  House. 

MR.  JOLLIFFE:   Just  for  the  sake  of  clarity ,wbile 
the  hon.  members  are  still  here,  perhaps  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  would  indicate  what  he  has  in  mind  with  respect 
to  Monday.   Does  he  have  in  mind  that  v;e  shall  resume  the 
debate  which  has  been  taking  place  to-day,  which  seems 
to  me  to  be  rather  like  a  miniature  debate  on  the  address, 
or  proceed  with  the  consideration  of  the  address  in  reply? 

MR.  DRE»V:   Mr,  Speaker,  I  think,  perhaps,  the  best 
way  of  dealing  with  this  would  be  that,  having  regard  to 
the  course  of  the  debate,  that  we  proceed  with  this  debate 
on  Monday,  if  it  is  agreeable  to   the  hon.  members,  and  the 
debate  on  the  Speech  from  the  Throne  on  Tuesday. 

I  ati  entirely  prepared  to  accomodate  the  hon. 
members  in  ccntinuing  tie  discussion  which  has  taken  place. 

-  276  -         2-23-45 

and  I  think  it  should  be  contued.  I  made  a  very  clear 
statement  that  this  would  be  discussed  in  the  debate  on  the 
Speech  from  the  Throne,  and  that  every  hon.  member  has 
a  right  to  discuss  this  in  the  debate  on  the  Speech  from, 
the  Throne . 

I  might  say  it  is  rather  interesting  to  find  that 
some  of  those  who  are  so  critical  of  some  kinds  of 
procedure  before  the  Orders  of  the  Day  should  find  it  so 
convenient,  on  other  occasions,  to  adept  a  course  which 
side-tracks  the  course  of  the  debate. 

I  think  if  the  kon. Leader  of  the  Opposition 
agrees,  rather  than  leave  him  uncertain  as  to  when  he 
shall  continue  the  debate  on  the  Speech  from  the 
Throne,  that  toay  be  adjourned  until  Tuesday,  and  this 
discussion  could  be  continued  on  ^londay.  Then,  if 
time  remains,  we  will  proceed  with  certain  Bills. 

MR.  JOLLIFFE:  I  would  accept  that  assurance  of 

the  h©n.  Prime  Minister,  and  I  hope  it  is  satisfactory 

to  all  the  hon.  members. 

Motion  agreed  to;  the  House  adjourned  at  five 
of  the  clock,  p.m. 

Page  295  follows. 


-  295  - 



Toronto,  Ontario, 
Monday, February  26,1945 

SPEAKER:   Hanourable  William  Jo  Stewart, C»B.B, 

The  House  met  at  tkreo  o'clock* 

Prayers . 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Presenting  petltionSo 

Reading  and  receiving  petitions » 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   Tke  following  petitions  have 
been  receivedo 

From  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Peterborough, 
praying  that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  establishment 
of  a  body  to  be  known  as  the  Peterborough  Memorial  Community 
Centre,  and  the  issue  of  debentures  to  raise  $75,000  to  aid 
in  the  construction  of  the  first  unit  of  such  centre* 

From  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  London,  praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  Corpoi^tion  to  provide 
additional  accommodation  at  the  Victoria  Hospital  at  a  cost 
of  $100,000,  and  to  amend  the  Act  to  incorporate  the  tester* 
Fair  Associationo 

The  following  petition  was  brought  and  laid  upon 

the  table: 

By  Mr,  Overall,  the  petition  of  the  Corpora tion  of 
the  Township  of  Stamford. 

MR.  SPEAKER:  Presenting  reports  by  committees « 

Motions o 

Y  J  a  M  at  E  6'  A     IV 

2  H  T 

y  A 

3*91, as   \  '>'5,^e6fl©M 

.a<8.3«^nAwe^8   <,^  niAtlliW  •IdeiuoaoH      tHaXASie 

.  eflc 
OTBXl   8aoI^ .  ' 

Y^ifijJiniaoO   Lb  lie 


*     "'"""0  erf*  iMrt*? 
aajttq   ^ain  *oA  xa  ^srf*  8fljt)j;eiq 

ol^oxj^i^Baoo  9Ai  at 


.-a  ;foA  «B  iti^if* 


asoLB  o;^   Jb«jf  ,00I|   lo 

-'  ' JeiooeeA  lisl 

«  296  -  2-26-45 


MR.  JC6EPH  B.   SAL3BERG  (St,  Amdrow)?  MroSpaaker, 
with  referoace  to  a  motion  of  mine  gel  the  Order  Paper,  I 
askod  tke  hon.  Prime  Minister  last  week  when  he  intended  to 
call  that  motion,  and  he  stated  in  the  House  he  would  call 
it  013  Momdayo   I  would  be  glad  if  we  could  proceed  with 
the  motion  at  this  timeo 

HON»  GEORGE  A,  DREW  (Prime  Miaister):   Mro  Speaker » 
I  did  not  say  it  would  bo  ^called**^  oa  Monday;  I  said  the 
question  would  be  answered  on  Menday,  aad  I  propose  to 
aaswer  it  for  him,  aad  I  caa  take  it  up  now,  &r   before  the 
Orders  of  the  Day;  either  is  agreeable  te  meo   But  since 
it  has  beea  raised^  perhaps  I  caa  deal  with  it  just  uowo 

As  was  aanouaoed  by  the  hon.  Minister  of  Labour 
(Mr„  Daley)  ©n  differeat  occasioas,  it  is  the  intention  te 
have  a  continuing  eiamiaatien  of  the  labour  iegislatloa  of 
this  provincdo   The  Gererament  has  expressed  its  wish 
that  there  should  be  such  continuing  examination,  ands> 
consisteat  with  thatg  it  is  the  desire  of  the  G©verxiiaeat 
that  there  be  a  select  committee  of  this  House  appointed^ 
with  similar  powers  to  those  which  the  Sleetior  Committee 
had,  which  was,  I  believe,  one  of  the  most  satisfactory 
cemmittees  that  this  Legislature  has  ever  hadj,  bosause 
it  was  aa  achievement  of  the  highest  ©rder^  and  upe».  ail 
substantial  facts  it  attained  uaanimityo 

The  Gtverameat  must  assume  responsibility  for  the 
•rder  ia  which  matters  are  brought  in^  if  there  is  t©  be 
aay  coherence  in  the  business  ©f  this  Legislature  at  ail, 
and  it  is  the  intention  of  the  Government,  consistent  with 
the  position  it  has  taken,  to  move  for  such  a  select  com- 
mittee, with  the  widest  possible  powers,  which  include 
powers  beyond  the  ordinary  committees  of  the  House,  to 
inquire  into  thewhole  problem  of  labour  relations,  and  my 

-.  le 


-   dCS    * 


'^  --r"*  »'.'  .y   .ti   YBe    #oc    ftit    >. 


9t)   e>fi 


'  J^\r\n  x:  *   :    ;.  .-■  •« 

«?   e«w   1^. 

•^  <M(T 

- -dBi  lo  Beltfoiq  ©lodwen' 

.  _     y  J. . 

-  297  -  2-26-45 

MTo  Drew 

suggestion  is,  that,  as  in  the  case  of  the  Election 
Committee,  there  be  five  members  of  the  Government,  four 
members  of  the  Opposition,  two  members  of  the  Liberal  party, 
and  one  of  the  other  party  represented;  and  that  if  the 
leaders  of  the  three  groups  will  give  to  me  the  names  of 
the  hon.  members  they  desire  to  act  —  and  I  would  not  ex- 
pect them  to  give  them  immediately  —  I  will  include  those 
in  the  motion  to  be  introduced  on  Wednesday.   As  I  have 
said,  this  motion  will  give  the  fullest  powers,  and  I  am 
quite  prepared  to  accept  any  suggestion  as  to  the  procedure 
to  be  followed o 

That,  then,  will  be  before  the  Legislature,  and  it 
is  not  my  intentioa  to  call  a  motion  on  the  Paper  before  that, 
as  this  is  a  Government  motion  which  deals  with  the  question 
in  a  way  which  I  believe  is  consistent  with  the  best  practice 
of  this  Legislature,  and  which  I  believe  has  produced  such 
excellent  results  on  a  foimer  occasiono 

MR,  SALSBERG:  Mr,  Speaker,  may  I  say  to  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister  that  I  am  glad  to  hear  that  the  Government  is 
seeing  the  need  for  such  a  committee  at  this  time,  although 
there  was  no  indication  of  such  in  the  Speech  from  the 
Throne  J  nor  in  the  discussions  with  responsible  members  of 
the  Government  dealing  with  this,  but  it  is  the  intention 
of  my  motion  to  have  a  select  committee  appointed  which  will 
report  and  make  recommendations,  and  propose  a  labour  Code  for 
Ontario  during  this  session  of  the  Legislature,  so  that  we 
may  deal  with  it,  and  adopt  it  during  this  session,  so  matter 
how  long  or  how  short  the  session,  because  of  circumstances, 
may  be* 

Now,  what  assurance  have  we  that  the  motion  which 
the  Government  will  introduce  will  also  provide  the  condi- 
tions for  reporting  the  findings  of  such  a  committee  to 



8  c' 




.iiori  exi. 


:a  toa  a  J: 


-  E98  -  2-26»45 


thia  Lagislature  for  action  during  this  session? 

MRo  DREW;  Mro  Speakerg  that  will  be  a  matter  for 
debate  on  the  motion  on  Wednesdayo   I  have  stated  the 
position  of  the  Gevernmentj  and  I  ask  the  cooperation  of 
the  leaders  of  the  other  groups,  and  I  would  wslcome  their 
suggestions  as  to  the  procedure  which  they  prefero 

MRo  Eo  Bo  JOLLIFFB  (Leadar  of  the  Opposition)? 
Mro  Speaker,  I  shall  be  glad  indeed  to  take  the  matter  up 
with  otner  members  of  this  Opposition  group  9  and  we  shall 
advise  ihe  hon»  Prime  Minister  before  Wednesday  what  our 
attitude  ls<, 

MRo  SPEAKER;  Introduction  of  bills, 

HON.  LESLIE  Eo  BLACKWSLL  (Attorney  General)?   Mr, 
Speaker,  I  inovej  seconded  by  Mro  Frosty  that  leave  be  given 
to  introduce  a  bill  intituled  "The  Securities  Act,  1945,* 
and  that  same  be  now  read  a  first  tlmeo 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  timeo 

ifflo  JOLLIFFB s  Mro  Speaker »  would  the  hon^   Attorney 
General  give  us  a  word  about  the  scope  of  this  legislation? 

MRo  BLA.GKWSLL;  Mro  Speaker,  in  response  to  the 
request  of  the  Leader  of  the  Oppositionj  and  perhaps  oy 
reason  of  the  very  nature  of  this  bill 3  I  may  try  to  be  a 
bit  more  comprehensive  than  I  would  be  on  first  reading 
0f  some  billSs,  and  perhaps  indicate  to  the  House  m,ore 
broadly  some  of  the  principles  involved  in  the  legisla-* 
tion,  than  I  might  be  on  an  ordinary  billo 

In  the  first  place,  I  will  try  to  give  youy  as 
broadly  as  possible,  a  general  picture  of  the  billo   Tho 
House  will  recall  that  the  Royal  Commission  on  Mining  was 
established,  and  one  of  the  functions  of  it  was  to  report 
and  make  recommendations  respecting  the  state  of  securities 
legislation  in  the  province  of  Ontario o   I  might  say  that 


ni    &. 


-  299  -  2-26-45 


the  Act  in  force  in  Ontario  at  the  present  time  is  knowm 
as  the  Securities  Act  of  1930 o   In  that  Act  is  found  part 
of  the  law  governing  the  trading  in  securities  in  this 

Shortly  following  1930,  when  that  Act  was  enacted 
hy  Ontario,  practically  every  other  jurisdiction  in 
Canada  followed  that  Act,  approximately.   But,  since 
1930,  by  reason  of  the  divergence  that  naturally  results 
from  such  legislation  and  the  passing  of  n\imerous  regula- 
tions under  their  respective  Acts  under  their  law,  we  have 
not  even  approached  uniform  legislation  in  the  Dominion 
to-day,  and  we  have,  in  OntariOg  in  existence  an  Act,  no 
matter  what  else  may  be  said  about  it,  that  constitutes 
the  law  that  is  found  both  in  an  Act  and  in  regulations  a 

So,  broadly  speaking,  what  we  have  done  is  this: 
We  have  considered  the  recommendations  of  the  Royal  Com- 
mission on  Mining,  and  we  have  proceeded  to  establish 
certain  preliminary  principles  or  proposals  with  rela- 
tion to  that  report  and  other  recommendations  madeo 
We  then  changed,  in  draft  form,  certain  principles  of 
the  Securities  Act  of  1930,  and,  subject  to  the  new  prin- 
ciples, consolidated  both  existing  legislature  and  this 
regulation  into  a  new  statute,  in  the  course  of  which 
we  ordered  the  new  hillo 

I  think  I  might  indicate,  for  the  information 
of  hon.  members,  what  might  be  regarded  as  the  most  funda- 
mental aspect  of  the  billo   It  brings  out,  if  I  may  say 
so,  what  might  be  termed  our  system  of  government;  that 
is,  responsible  government o    Our  Securities  Commission, 
in  my  view,  has  represented  a  confusion  of  thought  between 
the  law  officers  of  the  crown  enforcing  offences  regarding 
the  Securities  Act  Regulations  and  the  Code  of  American 


■id  J    ^- 




-  300  -  2-26-45 


concept  of  a  non-restionslble  agency.   Consequently,  there 
has  always  been  a  doubt  in  this  province  as  to  who  was 
responsible  for  the  broad  policy  under  our  Securities 
legislation,  and  who  bore  responsibility  for  the  adminis- 
trative policies o 

Was  it  a  thing  in  Ontario  called  the  Securities 
Commission  or  was  it  the  Government  responsible  to  this 
Legislature  who,  in  turn,  are  responsible  to  the  people 
of  the  province?   Examination  of  the  Act  will  indicate 
that  the  Government  and  the  Legislature  took:  the  respon- 
sibility, under  this  Act,  by  determining,  with  some  pre- 
cision;, the  policy,,   Subject  to  the  overall  concept,  this 
Act»  if  I  might  say  so,  represents  a  return  to  this  con- 
cept that  there  is  no  agency  established  by  the  Government 
that  provides  a  mind  so  brilliant  that  that  mind  can  deter- 
mine whether  a  security  is  a  sound  security  to  be  pur- 
chased by  a  member  of  the  public,  or  not.   So,  it  will 
be  found  in  this  Act  that  there  is  anabandonment  of  the 
theory  that  the  Commission,  somehow  or  other,  reconrniends 
the  securities  for  sale,  and  consents  to  their  sale  on 
the  implied  basis  that  somehow  or  other  they  have  the 
Government's  approval.   What  this  Act  contemplates  is  that 
the  applications  will  be  honest,  and  the  companies  and  pro- 
moters engaged  in  the  business  will  tall  the  truth  about 
the  securities  they  sell  to  those  members  of  the  public 
they  approach  to  induce  to  buy.   That  is  contemplated 
in  the  proposal  under  this  Act,  that  there  will  be  proper 
filings  made  with  the  Securities  Commissiono   The  Securi- 
ties Commission  will  have  certain  duties  with  relation  to 
whether  or  not  these  filings  are  accepted  for  filings,  and 
the  people  selling  these  securities  will  be  required  to 
furnish  to  the  members  of  the  public  who  are  asked  to 


E  f)EB 

iuode.  dd^u- 


-a  OCT 

)0    sv . 



-  301  -  2-26-45 


subscribe  to  these  securities  a  primary  distribution  to 
the  public  the  old  time- honoured  thing  called  a  prospectuso 
I  can  add  this»  in  general:  I&  framing  the  Act,  I 
indicated  we  started  out  with  having  taken  the  Act  to  a  cer- 
tain stage,  departmentally o   Following  that,  representative 
committees  of  the  different  bodies  into  which  the  people  in 
the  securities  busiiBss  are  organized  were  invited  to  con- 
sider the  proposal  at  the  stage  to  which  it  had  then  been 
developed.,  and  to  make  representations  and  recommendations, 
and  s,  in  that  respect,  I  want  to  say  the  organizations  repre- 
sentative of  the  whole  field  of  the  securities  business  have 
been  intensely  helpful  and  cooperative  with  the  Government, 
and  I  believe  I  am  able  to  go  this  far  on  the  introduction 
of  this  bill  to  say  that  it  commends  itself  to  those  i-epre* 
senting  all  organized  elements  in  the  securities  busirissso 
I  might  indicate  to  the  House  that  the  committees  repre- 
sentative of  the  investment  dealers  associations 3  the 
stock  exchange  brokers j  a  great  number  of  non-member 
brokers  who  are  not  members  of  any  exchanges,  and  even  a 
group  of  brokers  who  were  not  organized  in  any  fashion, 
were  represented  before  me  by  counsel  on  the  mattero 

In  the  preparation  of  this  bill,  representing  the 
Government  in  the  matter,  I  have  followed  the  time-honoured 
and  democratic  method  of  sitting  down  and  considering  the 
problem  with  the  people  who  will  actually  be  affected  by 
the  administration  of  the  Acto   I  hope  that  will  suffice 
the  hono  Leader  of  the  Opposition  (Mro  Jolliffe)  as  a 
broad  indication  of  what  this  bill  is  abouto 

I  will  deal,  of  course,  on  second  reading  more 
comprehensively  with  that  than  I  have  to-day,  and  I  will 
deal  with  some  of  the  many  principles  found  in  the  new 



J-   Bdt 

:»ttete   6«r 

w -r^-    a,'!  A  '>  tkT-,  i"i   *  ^-        P 


?»«  in  flj 

vT     ?B« 



-  302  -  2-26-45 

Mrs.  Luckock 

Iiffl.  SPEAKER:   The  Chair  recognizes  the  hon.  member 
for  Bracondale  (Mrso  Luckocic)o 

MRS.  R,  M.  LUCKOCK  (Bracondale):   I  would  like  to 
correct  a  statistical  report  I  gave  in  the  matter  of  the 
Family  Allowances  Act.   I  am  quoted  as  having  said  the 
mortality  rate  of  Canada  was  27  jer  cent  below  that  of 
the  United  States,  and  I  should  have  said  27  per  cent 
higher  than  the  United  Stateso   I  had  the  figures  in  front 
of  me,  and  I  do  not  know  how  I  came  to  say  it,  I  am  sure, 
but  I  also  find  in  our  Hansard  report  I  am  quoted  as  saying 
the^mentality^rate  of  Canada  is  27  per  cent  below  that  of 
the  United  States.   I  just  wish  to  make  that  correction 
of  a  mistake  made  last  Friday, 

1J!R,   E,  B.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
Mr.  Speaker,  before  the  Orders  of  the  Day  are  called,  and 
before  the  other  matters  are  proceeded  with,  I  rise  to 
protest  against  the  substance  of  information  contained  in 
the  Toronto  Daily  Star  of  Saturday,  February  24th.   On  the 
financial  page  of  the  Star  of  that  date  appeared  an  announce- 
ment in  these  words: 

•A  new  director  joins  the  board 
of  the  Chartered  Trust  and  Executor 
Company,  Thomas  Ho  Eogg,  B.A.SCo,  etc. 
Chairman  and  Chief  Engineer,  Hydro 
Electric  Power  Commission  of  Ontario »" 

I  simply  wish  to  say,  Mro  Speaker,  in  our  view  it 
is  not  proper  that  a  public  servant,  such  as  Doctor  Hogg, 
should  have  accepted  such  a  directorship,  if  he  has  done 
so,  and  I  suggest  at  the  appropriate  opportunity  the 
Government  should  state  whether  they  approve  or  disapprove 
of  a  public  servant  accepting  a  directorship  in  this  way 
in  a  private  enterpriseo 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREJ?  (Prime  Minister):   I  should  be 
very  pleased  to  take  into  consideration  the  information 




-90X1  Xflloaanil 


303  «  2-26-45 

Mr  D  Drew 

given  meo   The  Toronto  Daily  Star  is  not  my  favourite 
newspaper,  and  I  shall  follow  up  the  information  and  give 
a  statement  in  regard  to  it» 

MR>  SPEAKER;   Introduction  of  billSo 

HON.  LESLIE  E„  BLACKWELL  (Attorney  (Senoral):   I  move, 
seconded  by  Hono  Lo  Mo  Frost,  for  leave  to  introduce  an  Act 
respecting  prospecting  syndicates  having  a  capital  not  ex- 
ceeding ten  thousand  dollars,  and  that  it  may  bo  now  read 
the  first  timeo 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  timeo 

MR»  TAYLOR  (Temiskaming ) s  Would  the  hon.  Minister 
please  explain  this  bill? 

MR.  BLACOELL;  Mr.  Speaker i^  the  bill  that  has  just 
been  introduced ^  which  has  to  do  with  prospecting  syndicates 
not  exceeding  $10^000,  is  a  bill  cGciplementary  to  the 
Securities  Act  of  1945o   Briefly,  the  bill  expects  a  bona 
fide  prespector  not  to  sell  to  a  syndicate  that  he  might 
form  without  complying  with  the  principles  of  the  Securities 
Aoto   The  bill  provides  for  a  simple  form  of  da-ilaraticn 
within  the  syndicate  agreement  itself  3  and  provides  that 
each  person  to  whom  a  prospector  sells  such  syndicate  units 
should  be  furnished  with  a  copy  of  the  agreement  ujBder 
which  he  buys,  and  subject  to  these  rather  simple  prin~ 
ciples  the  bona  fide  prospector  is  entitled  to  form  and 
sell  units  in  as  many  syndicates  as  he  likes o 

MR,  SPEAKER:   Introduction  of  bills o 

Friday  afternoon  a  motion  was  carried  t©  adjoura 
the  House  to  discuss  a  matter  of  public  importance.. 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister);  Mr„  Speaker, 
this  being  a  motion  to  adjourn  the  House  there  is  a  time 
limit,  and  without  in  any  way  questioning  what  has  taken 
place  I  would  recall  that  there  had  been  a  clear  undertaking 




-  304  -  2-26-45 

Mr>  Drew 

that  this  was  to  bo  discussad  in  the  Speech  from  the  Throne 
aad  should  have  been. 

I  latend  to  make  only  a  very  brief  statement  to- 
day, for  the  purpose  of  bringing  to  an  end  the  continued 
misrepresentation  of  the  position  of  this  Government  in 
regard  to  family  allowances.    When  the  matter  was  raised 
at  the  beginning  of  this  session  I  stated  that  the  subject 
would  be  dealt  with  fully  at  the  proper  timeo   That  proper 
time  is  in  the  debate  on  the  Speech  from  the  Throne o    I 
alkali  discuss  this  subject  at  seme  length  in  that  debate, 
and  I  might  point  out  that  I  w©uld  have  spoken  before  this 
if  we  had  not  beea  precipitated  into  a  wholly  unnecessary 
discussion, in  view  of  the  assurance  which  I  had  given» 

But  there  have  been  enough  misstatements  in  ad- 
vertisements in  the  press,  and  even  in  this  Legislature, 
to  call  for  a  repetition  of  the  statement  of  our  position 
at  this  time.   The  statement  I  g^ve  to  the  Legislature 
last  Thursday  was  not  intended  as  a  complete  statement  on 
this  subject,  nor  was  there  any  suggestion  that  it  was 
intended  to  take  the  place  of  the  remarks  I  proposed  to 
make  in  the  debate  on  the  Speech  from  the  Throne.   I  did 
so  because  we  had  been  proceeding  with  that  debate,  and 
I  thought  it  was  proper  that  the  facts  should  be  before 
the  Legislature  as  to  what  the  situation  waSo   I  did  re- 
call, however,  our  positive  and  very  definite  statement 
that  —  and  I  quote  — 

•*We  are  in  favour  of  every 
proper  step  being  taken  to  encourage 
large  and  healthy  families o     We 
believe  in  sound  provisions  for 
family  allowances  and  social  security »• 

la  spite  of  our  position  having  been  stated  so 

clearly,  statements  are  still  made  that  we  are  opposed 

to  family  allowa«ces» 




-  305  -  2-26-45 

Mro  Drew 

I  referred  to  the  iniquitous  principle  involved  in 
the  measure  which  has  been  adopted  by  the  Dominion  Goverm- 
mento   My  speech  quite  cleatly  was  not  referring  to  any 
opposition  to  family  allowanceso   No  one  who  read  that 
--  and  not  intending  to  read  it  in  a  prejudiced  way  — - 
could  have  omitted  to  uaderstand  what  I  saido   I  was 
referring  to  the  principle  in  the  Dominion  Act  that  the 
family  allewaaces  are  act  part  of  social  security,  aad 
that  they  should  be  regarded  as  a  mere  economic  question. 
It  Is  pointed  out  it  must  be  reoogaized  as  that,  or  it 
would  not  be  within  their  power  at  all„   We  also  believe 
it  is  an  iniquitous  principle  that  very  large  sums  of 
money  should  be  taken  from  the  taxpayers  of  this  or  aay 
other  province  to  be  paid  for  something  which  falls 
within  the  jurisdiction  of  the  provincial  goveruments , 
without  consulting  those  provincial  governments  and 
establishing  a  proper  basis  of  taxation  and  payment 
right  across  Canada » 

At  the  time  I  said  that  we  would  oppose  the  course 
being  followed  by  the  Dominion  Government,  we  had  the  un- 
qualified assurance  of  the  right  hoa.  Prime  Minister  of 
Canada  that  there  was  going  to  be  a  dominion-provincial 
conference  to  discuss  matters  of  this  kind,  and  it  was 
our  intention  to  do  everything  withia  our  po7;er  at  that 
conference  to  ensure  a  proper  system  of  family  all«waaces 
aad  that  the  rights  of  the  people  of  Ontario  be  protected, 

N©w,  I  cone  to  the  suggest ioa  that  we  intead  to 
take  legal  steps  to  prevent  the  Dominion  Act  goiag  into 
effect e   I  noticed  that  in  a  communist  advertisemeat , 
but  that  is  not  our  intention,  and  it  never  has  beea  our 
inteatioBo   I  have  said  in  this  Legislature  aad  elsewhere. 

+  -^  tK?rr 


•7  •i'\1'»% 

,  uci 

-  306  -  2-26-45 

Mto  Drew 

many  times,  that  I  do  not  believe  the  dominion  and  pro- 
vincial governments  should  become  involved  i«  legal 
technicalities,  but,  rather,  they  should  meet  arouEd  the 
council  table  to  work  out  their  problems  and  fine  the 
very  best  solution  in  every  case,  so  that  their  combined 
powers,  which  do  cover  the  whole  field  of  legislation, 
whatever  it  may  be,  may  find  full  expression  for  the  ad- 
vantage of  the  people  of  this  country. 

Our  purpose  is  t©  have  in  this  province  the  very 
best  system  of  family  allowances  which  can  be  worked  out, 
on  the  basis  of  the  accumulated  experience  of  every  other 
jurisdiction  which  has  already  adopted  this  measure.   As 
I  said  last  week,  we  wish  to  join  hands  to  combine  our 
legislative  power  with  that  of  the  Dominion  Government, 
to  assure  the  best  social  services  which  can  be  devised. 

You  will  find  that  in  a  speech,  as  recently  as 
Saturday  night,  Mr.  Claxton  made  it  quite  clear  that 
this  province  has  been  cooperating  in  all  the  preliminary 
details  necessary  for  carrying  out  such  a  measure,  under 
such  terms  as  might  be  agreed  upon.   We  have,  in  fact, 
under  an  agreement  entered  into  last  December  —  not  a 
recent  thing  of  the  last  few  days  —  set  up  the  most 
modern  methods  of  recording  vital  statistics,  and  have 
installed  photographic  devices  which  provide  the  G-arern- 
ment  at  Ottawa  with  every  detail  of  vital  statistics  for 
the  very  purpose  of.  carrying  out  this  or  any  other  social 
service  measure o 

I  believe  it  is  an  iniquitous  principle  that 
payments  should  be  a  mere  baby  bonus,  and  that  they  should 
be  basedl  merely  upon  the  fact  that  a  baby  has  been  born. 
I  believe  that  our  people  want  real  family  allowances,  in 
the  clearly  accepted  meaning  of  that  term,  for  the  maintenance, 









-msTOv    sri; 


.rr-  soivtsE 


(•diXBHsd^nisfii:  »n 



-  307  -  2-26-45 

MTo  Drew 

eare,  training  and  upbringing  of  the  children  in  a  way  that 
will  assure  the  welfare  of  the  children  themselves.,   That 
is  not  accomplished  by  the  present  dominion  Acto   In  fact, 
it  cannot  be  done;  according  to  their  statement,  the  Act 
would  not  be  within  their  powero   That  is  not  accomplished 
by  the  present  Act,  and  we  have  the  clear  words  of  the  right 
hon.  Prime  Minister  of  Canada,  "The  Act  does  not  in  any  way 
attempt  to  legislate  In  respect  of  family  life.*    If  it 
has  nothing  to  do  with  family  life  then  how  can  it  possibly 
assure  the  welfare  of  the  children  in  those  families  which 
receive  the  money? 

As  you  know,  we  have  continued  to  press  for  a 
dominion-provincial  conference  right  up  to  the  opening  of 
this  session,  for  the  very  purpose  of  bringing  together 
the  combined  authorities  of  our  governments  so  that  in 
this  and  every  other  ease  no  constitutional  difficulties 
may  arise,  and  with  the  certainty  that  everything  should 
be  done  with  the  full  knowledge  of  the  facts,  which  are 
not  often  presented  now,  and  with  the  certainty  that  what 
is  undertaken  will  be  carried  out  in  the  best  interests 
of  our  people o 

The  situation  then  is  simply  this:  We  can  only 
wait  now  until  after  the  dominion  election,  and  I  do  not 
think  anyone  in  this  Legislature,  and  certainly  not  the 
hon.  leader  of  the  Liberal  group  (Mr<,  Hepburn),  can  be 
in  doubt  that  the  present  right  hon.  Prime  Minister  of 
the  Dominion  will  cease  to  be  the  Prime  Minister,  and  that 
we  will  have  there  a  government  which  recognizes  its  con- 
stitutional obligations  and  the  advantage  of  effective 
cooperation.   I  feel  sure  we  will  have  a  government  that 
will  join  with  us  and  with  the  other  provincial  governments 
right  across  Canada  —  may  I  say  five  different  political 




»    yiWT 

-  308  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  Drew 

comploxion  —  those  are  not  going  to  change  overnight  — 
but  we  will  have  a  government  that  will  join  in  coopera- 
tion with  those  other  provinces  in  establishing  the  very 
best  measures  possible  in  the  field  of  social  security, 
and  in  other  fields  of  legislation,  where  the  governments 
have  joint  responsibilitieso   When  that  conference  does 
take  place  we  believe  it  will  be  possible  to  reaoh  agree- 
ment upon  this  and  every  other  problem  which  we  face. 
In  the  case  of  family  allowances  and  all  other  similar 
measures,  our  one  object  as  a  government  is  to  bring 
into  operation  the  very  best  social  and  other  measures 
which  it  is  within  the  power  of  this  country  to  providco 

MR.  WILLIAM  DENNISON  (Sto  David):  Mr,  Speaker, 
the  hon.  Prime  Minister  mentioned  we  have  five  different 
complexions  — 

MR.  A.  BELANGER  (Prescott ) :  Might  I  rise  to  a 
point  of  order?   Has  not  the  present  speaker  spoken  al- 
ready on  this  question? 

MR.  DENNISON:   I  am  asking  a  question  of  the  hon. 
Prime  Minister. 

MR,  SPEAKER:   Out  of  order.   This  is  Monday.  Let 
us  start  the  week  in  a  little  better  spirit  than  we  ended 
last  week.   I  quite  agree  with  the  hon.  member  for  Prescott; 
it  is  out  of  ordero   I  have  no  desire  to  stop  the  debate, 
and  with  the  consent  of  the  House  I  will  permit  a  question, 
but  I  think  we  should  keep  to  the  rules o 

MR.  DENNISON:   Thank  you,  Mr.  Speakero   I  would 
like  to  ask  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  this:  He  said  we  have 
five  different  governments  across  Canada*   I  figure  we 
have  sixo   I  am  asking  if  he  figures  that  he  and  the 
government  of  Duplessis  are  of  the  same  political  com- 

w  d-fir 

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-  309  -  2-26-45 

ICr*  Drew 

MB.  DREW:   I  did  uoX   know  the  hon.  member  had 
jolaed  the  CommuBistSe 

HR.  DSNNISON:   That  admits  my  coutentloa. 

MB.  Go  ANDERSON  (Fort  William):  Mr«  Speaker*  la 
rising  to  take  part  In  this  debate  I  Just  wish  to  make  a 
very  few  observationso 

First  of  all,  I  belioTe  that  family  allovaaoes 
are  long  overdue.   I  feel  that  citizens  who  have  the 
responsibility  of  raising  a  family  should  have  special 
considerations.   There  has  been  some  fear  expressed  in 
certain  quarters  that  the  granting  of  family  allowances 
will  encourage  large  families o   To  those  I  would  suggest 
that  they  attempt  to  raise  a  child  on  eight  dollars  a 
month . 

However,  I  do  not  believe  that  family  allowances 
or  usemplojnnent  Insurance  will  solve  our  economic  problems* 
I  think  we  have  to  go  deeper  than  that.   le  have  to  have 
a  greater  measure  of  social  ownership  if  the  common  people 
of  this  country  are  going  to  emjoy  the  standard  of  living, 
this  scientific  day  and  age  permits  us  to  enjoy. 

In  my  opinion^  the  greatest  thing  in  life  is  life 
itself.   We  should  be  Interested  in  the  welfare  of  the 
people  at  all  times.   We  speak  of  demoeracy,  and  we,  of 
course,  think  of  democracy  as  defined  by  Abraham  Linoola, 
•a  government  of  the  people,  by  the  people,  for  the  people," 
but  I  sometimes  think,  Judging  our  democracy  in  the  light 
of  the  past,  that  It  would  be  more  proper  to  say  it  is  the 
government  of  the  pople,  by  the  party  machine,  for  the 

I  cannot  agree  with  those  in  the  House  who  would 
have  us  believe  that  the  Liberals  are  superior  to  the 
Conservatives.   I  do  not  believe  the  Conservatives, 

b»A  itxiaiea  »eiOsL  0i.i  woaA   toa  I  :  WSHQ  .501 

fli  (ittsiMqe  .111    :{a»iiii«  #Toi)  ;ioeHX(m/.         m 

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.etioliBriBBiio  »©1  Yi«>v 

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td:^Xl  Bti.s  ai   x^BiooaiiBD  iuq  ■^as.^DUi,   ^asii&.s  q&2iijbjbos.  1  tud 

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,8erXi'B>Ti>2iL0«  Oiij    j\i,^li9c   i'Oii  ox»   X        .8©vX^«TieaaoO 

-  310  -  2-26-45 

Mr«^  Aaderson 

alone,  constitute  the  big,  bad  wolves o    My  memory  goes 
back  to  the  days  of  the  depression,  to  the  days  of  unem- 
ployment and  poverty.   During  those  days  I  saw  no  appre- 
ciable difference  in  the  treatment  of  unemployment  by  the 
Liberals  and  the  Conservatives,,   It  takes  just  about  twenty- 
four  hours  on  a  fast  train  to  bring  me  from  my  home  to 
Toronto.    I  cannot  help  but  contrast  the  difference  that 
I  see, in  making  one  of  these  trips,  in  the  treatment  accorded 
the  young  people  now  and  the  treatment  accorded  them  during 
the  depressioHo   During  the  depression  very  few  people 
travelled  standard,  compared  to  to-day,   but,  on  the  top 
of  the  trains,  and  outside,  and  underneath  the  trains, 
hanging  on  the  rods,  could  be  found  large  numbers  of  men 
and  women. 

At  the  divisional  points  along  the  north  shore  of 
Lake  Superior,  where  no  one  would  think  of  deserting  a 
stray  dog  or  cat,  in  those  days  it  was  common  practice 
to  see  a  policeman,  and  they  cleared  the  trains  of  these 
poor  mortals  who  were  looking  for  employment.   Then  the 
train  would  move  on. 

Now,  the  picture  is  entirely  changed,  and  vve  see 
these  young  men  dressed  in  neat  fitting  —  yes,  and  women  — 
neat  fitting,  waim  clothing,  and  they  eat  in  the  dining  car, 
and  they  are  able  to  sleep  in  the  pullman  car,  and  I  am  not 
complaining,  but  it  seems  to  me  that  if  we  can  do  that  in 
war  time  for  our  young  people  we  should  be  able  to  expend 
a  greater  measure  of  social  security  for  them  in  ordinary 
times o 

Now  we  are  at  war,  and  I  sincerely  hope  we  will  not 
see  the  returned  soldiers  of  this  war  treated  as  the  return- 
ed soldiers  of  the  last  war  werco   I  saw  returned  soldiers 
from  the  last  war  who  had  not  committed  any  crime  —  they 


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-  311  -  2-26-45 

Mr a  Anderson 

were  on  relief  because  they  could  not  secure  employment, 
and  were  given  the  sum  of  $2olO  a  week,  living  in  dingy 
basements  on  that  allowance <>   I  saw  that  in  my  home  city, 
where  these  great  grain  storage  headquarters  are,  and  we 
have  facilities  for  storing  one  hundred  million  bushels  of 
wheat,  and  at  that  time  the  elevators  were  filled  with 
wheat  bought  from  farmers  at  prices  which  beggared  them* 

At  the  beginning  of  this  war  we  found  that  a  large 
number  of  our  men  could  not  pass  the  medical  examination 
because  they  were  undernourished  and  were  in  ill  health, 
caused  in  a  good  many  cases  from  lack  of  proper,  nourishing 

If  peace  were  declared  to-day  I  think  you  will 
agree,  Mro  Speaker,  we  are  not  very  well  prepared  to  meet 
the  situation..   We  should  be  discussing,  right  here  in 
this  Chamber,  how  we  are  going  to  provide  constructive 
employment  for  the  men  and  women  who,  will  be  turned  out 
of  the  armea  forces,  and  the  men  and  wcanen  now  engaged  in 
industry  . 

I  would  suggest  that  the  speakers  who  follow  me 
do  not  take  too  much  time  on  these  matters o   We  have  had 
a  report  from  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  as  to  what  he  has  in 
mind,  and  I  think  we  should  be  getting  down  to  business  and 
laying  plans  for  the  day  when  peace  will  be  declared.   Let 
us  not  make  the  mess  of  peace  that  v/e  did  after  the  last 
waro   We  won  a  military  victory  but  lost  the  peace  of 

MR.  A.  BELAI^ER  (Prescott):  Mr.  Speaker,  if  this 
were  the  debate  on  the  family  alloaiances  I  would  have  a 
great  deal  to  say^   But  I  took  it  from  what  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  said  that  the  question  will  be  discussed  in  the 



-  312  -  2-26-45 

Uro  Belanger 

debate  on  the  Speech  from  the  Throne »  and  we  will  all  have 
an  opportunity  there  to  speak. 

The  question  as  stated  by  the  hon.  member  of  this 
House  who  moved  the  adjournment  was  simply  this,  What  is  the 
position  of  the  Government  on  family  allowances?"   That  we 
all  heardo   Of  course ^  in  the  course  of  zhe   debate,  and 
taking  advantage  of  your  good  nature,  Mr»  Speaker,  we  had 
the  hon.  member  for  St =  David  (Mro  Dennison)  speaking  on 
anything  but  family  allowances,  especially  on  what  the 
Liberal  government  had  done  with  direct  relief,  Just  be- 
cause it  happened  to  be  a  measure  of  social  security. 

Well,  if  we  are  going  to  tack  on  anything  that  may 
be  tacked  onto  a  question,  then  I  would  say  why  should  we 
take  advantage  of  that  fact?    For  instance,  the  hon»  Prime 
Minister,  if  he  were  not  wrongly  reported,  in  regard  to  a 
quotation  I  gave  the  other  day,  where  he  stated,  speaking 
on  family  allowances,  that  it  was  a  good  thing  we  have 
these  marriages  overseas  in  order  to  better  the  British 
stock  here  in  Ontario  —  if  I  had  been  minded,  like  the 
hon.  member  for  Sto  David,  I  could  have  Jumped  into  agri- 
culture and  spoken  about  pure  bred  stock,  and  so  forth. 

I  do  not  think  we  should  be  allowed  to  ramble  all 
over  the  lot  any  more  than  we  should  Jump  over  a  fence  and 
go  into  a  neighbour's  lot. 

Unfortunately,  I  did  not  hear  all  the  last  speaker 
saido   I  did  catch  a  few  words  —  "dogs,*  "cats,"  *wheat,* 
•unemployment*  --  that  was  all  I  could  hear,,   I  think 
everybody  will  agree  with  thato   What  has  that  to  do  with 
the  present  question  I  don't  know,  although  I  am  quite  in 
accord  with  the  remarks  of  the  last  hono  member,  that  we 
should  go  on  with  the  business  of  the  House  and  stick  to 
the  business  of  the  moment.   Regulations  in  this  House 



eJt.'.  -iEae 

.1.  -».  -.  J 


fine    ,9t> 

o    :>n 



*;  /      ■  *-:   ^' 

■  i^.^n 

inajw   .nod 


t   t  »vo 


-  313  -  2-26-45 


have  been  provided  especially  for  that,  in  order  that  we 
may  go  on  with  the  business  of  the  House,  but  if  we  take 
advantage  of  every  question  that  comes  up  to  talk  on  any 
subject,  and  try  to  make  political  capital  out  of  it,  we 
will  not  get  anywhere. 

Now,  I  think  the  question  of  the  hon.  member  for 
Bellwoods  (Mr.  MacLeod)  has  been  answered  by  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  as  regards  the  attitude  of  the  Government.   The 
hon.  Prime  Minister  has  given  that  answer,  I  think  in  a 
canprehensive  way,  and  I  wish  to  say  for  those  outsidei  of 
the  House,  those  who  are  interested  in  my  position  and 
those  who  are  interested  in  what  I  think  about  family 
allowances  and  the  criticism  which  has  been  raised  against 
family  allowances,  that  they  have  been  devised  by  the 
federal  government,  and  I  wish  to  say  that  I  reserve  the 
right,  at  the  proper  time,  and  in  the  proper  place  and 
on  the  proper  Orders  of  the  Day  to  discuss  the  question 

MR.  SPEAKER;   I  have  no  desire  in  any  way  to  cur- 
tail debate,  and  I  think  I  have  given  hon.  members  a  great 
deal  of  latitude.   If  it  is  the  wish  of  the  House,  shall  I 
call  the  Orders  of  the  Day? 

MR.  CYRIL  OVERALL  (Niagara  Falls):  Mr.  Speaker, 
after  listening  to  the  hon.  member  for  Prescott  (Mr» 
Belanger)  and  ascertaining  from  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  the 
government's  position  on  family  allowances,  I  have  a  ques- 
tion I  would  like  to  direct  to  the  hon.  Prime  Minister,  if 
he  has  no  objection,  regardless  of  whether  the  hon.  member 
for  Prescott  has  any  objection  or  not. 

Will  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  tell  me,  when  the 
family  allowances  came  into  effect,  what  effect  they  will 


■  .■%    *        '<r    . 





V    880X1* 

lidf   S.C 

-Tijo  '«ri   I      •ffE2iAfi<!E   .m! 

I     iJ-lSXlE, 

,1f  3318?:': 


-  0  e  91^: 

9  ri  J'  XI  e  ii  vv    ,  f;  - 14  331  -.' 


-  314  -  2-26-45 

Mpo  Overall 

have  on  mothers'  allowances,  already  paid  in  this  province, 
and  in  regard  to  direct  relief? 

I  have  noticed  in  the  past  there  has  always  been 
some  pretext'  for  the  reduction  of  pensions  and  dependents* 
allowances o    I  have  a  number  of  cases  in  my  own  riding 
iphere  pensions  have  been  reduced  because  a  young  lad  has 
joined  the  armed  forces,  and  has  paid  his  mother  an 
allowance o 

What  effect  will  this  family  allowance  have  on 
mothers'  allowances  and  relief  cases? 

MR.  SPEAK3R:   I  afforded  the  hon.  member  for 
Niagara  Falls  (Mr,  Overall)  leave  to  ask  the  question, 
but  I  respectfully  submit  to  this  House,  it  is  out  of 
order  to  question  anticipated  legislation. 

HON.  G30RGE  A,  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Mr, Speaker,. 
I  shall  be  very  glad  to  answer  that  now.   That  is  one  of 
the  reasons  we  have  been  pressing  for  a  dominion-provincial 
conference.   We  have  not  one  word  of  official  information 
as  to  what  will  happen  and  that  is  one  of  the  things  we 
feel  should  be  clarified  in  the  most  minute  detail  by  a 
conference  with  the  government. 

lilR»   Ea  B,  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition):  Mr. 
Speaker,  I  venture  to  suggest  that  the  discussion  on  Friday 
and  to-day  has  served  a  useful  purposeo   However,  without 
wishing  in  any  way  to  interfere  with  the  rights  of  any  hon. 
member  who  still  desires  to  speak,  I  am  inclined  to  think 
that  we  should  proceed  at  this  point  to  the  next  order  of 
business o 

I  wish  to  say,  subject  to  the  extent  to  which  this 
discussion  has  taken  place  on  Friday  and  again  to-day,  that 
I  believe  this  matter  can  be  properly  discussed  fully  — 
much  more  fiolly  —  at  a  later  stage  in  the  work  of  this 

Li  81  M 

,a^^xvo^  -Jile    ,  :j    over! 

■'-?•'•'  ^J^ti  I 

^oxanfr  loi^oufiea  ©riJ  xetonq   ■ 

Tsb'ia,  so  f?  ewe 

»q  ec  60 101  fooniot 


,  Tr^JJ^elRt-sef.   bs;te.-rX3t;trrB  rrofJec  -&to 

Isionlvetcr-ffctrTL  snosr 

iM  xe&Be 

tisod^iv   J 19V  6£oqli/q  xw:  biiB 

cHOfl  Y^t^  :  an  trie  iw 

Ic   isaio  3-xaa  an.  .q  axi'  Dluorie   sw  :reri;f 

,.  aeen  i 

airia  xow   9;;.  92E.tE  _ ,.  , .      . :  in  Aoissa. 

-  315  -  2-36-45 


Legislature,  and  subject  again  to  that  extent  --  and  I 
know  I  speak  for  several  others  as  well  as  myself,  when 
I  say  that  we  think  the  discussion  has  had  considerable 
value,  but  that  it  need  not  go  any  further  at  this  time. 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Again  I  repeat  I  want  to  extend  to 
all  hon.  members  of  the  House  all  the  opportunities  to 
speak  possible,  but  is  it  the  pleasure  of  the  House  to 
call  the  Orders  of  the  Day? 

MR.  Ao  A.  MacLSOD  (Bellwoods);  Mr.  Speaker,  on 
a  question  of  procedure:   I  am  not  familiar  with  the  pro- 
cedure which  must  be  followed  in  so  far  as  the  disposi- 
tion of  such  a  motion  is  concerned o   Will  you  explain? 
There  is  a  motion  before  the  House..   As  I  understand, 
in  my  amateurish  way,  it  is  necessary  for  the  mover  of 
that  motion  to  withdraw  it  before  we  can  proceed  with 
the  Orders  of  the  Day. 

MR.  SPEAKER:   It  is  a  motion  upon  which  the 
House  does  not  divide,  and  unless  someone  wishes  to  pro- 
ceed with  the  discussion,  we  will  go  on  with  the  Orders 
of  the  Day. 

MR.  MaoLEOD:   I  think,  since  the  hon.  Prime  Minis- 
ter has  been  willing  to  make  such  a  humiliating  retreat 
from  his  attitude  evinced  in  his  speech  of  August  9th  — 

SOME  HON.  MEMBERS:   Oh,  oho 

MR.  MacLEOD:   I  will  withdraw  my  motion. 

MR.  SPEAKER:   I  appeal  to  the  hon.  members  of  this 
House o   You  have  placed  me  in  a  most  embarrassing  position, 
Let  us  keep  offensive  remarks  and  personalities  out  of  the 

MR.  MacLEOD?   There  was  nothing  offensive  about  it 
at  all,  Mr.  Speaker. 

o  1 10  li .i  .,  ■^'-.  i.'oE 

Toi^   .HM 

-  316  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  MacLeod 

MR.  DUNBAR:   Do  not  blame  the  hon.  gentleman. 
There  was  a  note  passed  across  to  him,  and  he  had  to  say 

MRo  HEPBURN  (Elgin):  Mto  Speaker,  I  want  to  ssy 
that  the  hono  Provincial  Secretary  is  entirely  wrong.  He 
projects  himself  into  an  issue  of  this  kind  with  the  leap 
of  a  bullfrog o 

MR.  DUNBAR:   This  is  a  little  "free-for-all"  for 
this  "wise-cracker,"  our  hono  friend  from  Southern  Ontario* 
Now,  if  it  comes  to  this,  there  are  other  "wise- crackers'* 
here  -- 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Order. 

MR.  DUNBAR:   —  who  have  not  been  with  as  many 
parties,  or  perhaps  not  as  many  friends o   1  might  remind 
him  that  there  is  an  old  saying,  "Never  bite  the  hand  that 
feeds  you." 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Order » 

MR.  DUNBAR:   The  hon.  member  on  my  right  does  not 
seem  to  understand  that» 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Hon.  members,  we  have  had  enough 
levity  during  the  last  week  ,  while  the  country  is  at  war. 
Orders  of  the  Dayo 

HON.  LESLIE  M.  FROST  (Minister  of  Mines):  Mr. 
Speaker,  with  your  permission  and  with  the  permission  of 
the  House,  perhaps  it  might  be  well  if  I  direct  some 
remarks  to  the  Pa3n3iaster  disaster  about  which  I  was 
going  to  speak  on  Friday.   The  arrangement  on  Friday 
was  this:   We  should  let  the  matter  stand  over  until 
Tuesday,  but  the  hon.  Leader  of  the  Opposition  (Mr. 
Jolliffe)  goes  on  to-morrow,  and  if  it  his  preference, 
I  shall  go  ahead  with  this  matter  for  a  few  minutes  to- 

Xi".'  *!i 



-  317  -  2-86-45 

Mr«,  Frost 

Mra  Speaker,  I  should  like  to  give  the  House  a 
full  outline  of  the  situation  as  regards  the  Paymaster 
disaster^  which  happened  at  the  beginning  of  this  month. 

First  of  all,  let  me  assure  the  House  of  this, 
that  we  are  anxious  that  there  should  be  the  fullest  in- 
quiry and  the  fullest  disclosure  of  everything  connected 
with  that  unfortunate  affairo 

Now,  at  the  present  time,  an  inqurest  has  been 
ealledo   I  am  not  sure  whether  it  commences  its  sittings 
to-day  or  to-morrow,  but  an  inquest  is  being  called  under 
the  direction  of  Magistrate  Tucker,  of  Cochrane,  I  believe 
one  of  the  presiding  coroners  in  that  locality.   Just  as 
an  indication  to  the  House  of  our  desire  that  this  matter 
should  be  freely  and  fully  looked  into,  I  may  say  that 
among  the  coroners  in  that  district  is  the  hon .  member 
for  South  Cochrane  (Mro  Grummett),  and  we  asked  him  if 
it  was  possible  for  him  to  take  the  inquest  and  preside 
over  it,  knowing  that  Mro  Grummett  would  give  it  im- 
partial direction  and  considerationo,   Mr.  Grummett 
quite  properly  felt  that  if  he  undertook  the  matter  at 
this  time  it  would  interfere  with  his  attendance  at  the 
Legislature,  and  he,  also  quite  properly,  felt  that  some 
other  coroner  should  take  the  inquest,  which  is  now  in 
progress o 

Now,  Mr»  Speaker,  in  connection  with  the  mining 
rules,  I  placed  the  rules  on  the  desks  of  each  hon.  member 
here  last  Friday.   I  would  not  like  to  cast  any  doubt  upon 
the  rules  themselves,  and  you  will  see  the  purpose  of  my 
making  that  remark.   These  rules  have  been  very,  very 
fully  gone  into, and  by  a  good  many  authorities  it  is  felt 
that  our  safety  rules,  as  contained  in  section  160,  and 

a   s- 


-  318  -  2-26-45 

Mro  Frost 

in  Part  VIII  of  the  Mining  Aot,  are  the  most 
complete  and  the  best  rules,  in  the  main,  that  are  in 
existence  in  the  world,   I  would  say  to  you,  MroSpeaker, 
and  to  hon.  ladies  and  gentlemen  of  this  House,  that  since 
coming  into  office  in  August,  1943,  I  have  travelled  very 
considerably  in  the  north  country,  and  I  have  no  recol- 
lection of  any  complaint  being  directed  to  me  in  con- 
nection with  the  ruleso    I  have  no  recolleetion  either 
of  any  complaint  having  been  raised  here  in  the  Legis- 
lature with  relation  to  the  rules,  and  I  am  sure  there 
were  no  complaints  directed  to  the  Mining  Commission, 
which  sat  in  relation  to  the  nature  and  scope  of  the 
rules  o. 

However,  aside  from  that,  as  I  say,  I  am  not 
ecming  here  casting  doubt  on  the  rules  which  we  have  in 
vogue  at  the  present  time,  and  I  will  give  you  an  outline 
of  how  the  rules  came  into  beingo 

I  do  not  want  the  Mining  Department  nor  myself, 
nor  does  the  Government  want  to  hide  behind  the  fact  that 
accidents  sometimes  are  inevitable,  even  under  the  best 
circumstances,  and  under  the  best  conditions »   Accidents 
happen  on  railways,  and  in  marine  affairs,  and  on  tram 
lines,  and  what  not.   Our  purpose  is  this  —  and  I  want 
to  be  perfectly  frank  with  hon.  members  of  this  House  in 
saying  this  —  that  we  want  to  find  out  these  things; 
first,  what  was  the  cause  of  this  accident;  secondly, 
is  our  inspection  service  as  efficient  and  complete  as 
it  should  be  --  and  that  is  one  of  the  things  we  want  to 
have  answered  in  this  inquiry.   Thirdly,  does  our  mining 
practice  in  Ontario  produce  the  greatest  measure  of  safety, 
and,  fourthly,  wherein  may  these  rules  and  regulations  be 



'  CC4 


'r.aa  ■  9V  C£l 


-  319  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  Frost 

Now,  I  think,  Mr.  Speaker,  that  that  is  taking 
these  rules  and  placing  them  under  very  strict  scrutiny. 
I  am  asking  the  hon.  members  of  this  House  to  take  the 
sections  of  the  Mining  Act,  and  section  160,  and  look 
into  them,  not  only  in  connection  with  this  mining  disaster, 
but  with  everything  else  and  see  if  we  are  making  any  mis- 
takes «   We  are  asking  the  fullest  suggestions  not  only  in 
connection  with  our  mining  rules.   At  present  I  have  re- 
ceived many  communications,  one  in  particular  protesting 
the  cables  used  in  these  hoists o 

I  might  say  to  you  that  The  International  Nickel 
Company  has,  I  believe,  the  largest  research  department, 
outside  of  our  own  Research  Department,  and  has  been 
working  on  electrical  devices  for  testing  cables o   Some 
of  the  mining  companies  employees  are  working  in  connec- 
tion with  brake  testso 

I  was  much  interested  in  noticing  in  the  press 
on  Saturday  that  a  young  university  student  at  the  Uni- 
versity of  Toronto,  Mr.  Ro  T,  Canboy,  a  third  year  student, 
had  produced  a  device  for  testing  cables  electronicallyo   I 
congratulate  Mro  Canboy  upon  his  work  in  suggesting  a  device 

I  mentioned  the  question  of  our  instruction  staff 
in  Northern  Ontario,  and  perhaps  I  should  make  some  refer- 
ence to  the  staff,  which  is  maintained  by  the  Department  of 
Mines o   The  staff  consists  of  eight  inspectors,  of  whom 
one  is  the  chief  inspector,  who  was  appointed  some  six  or 
eight  years  ago,  with  several  inspectors,  one  in  Port 
Arthur  district,  one  in  Sudbury  district,  one  in  Toronto, 
one  in  Swastika,  one  at  Kenora  and  one  in  Kirkland  Lake 
district,  and  one  in  the  Timmins  district <>   These  inspec- 
tors, we  think,  are  all  very  well  qualified  men,  civil 



-  330  -  2-26-45 

MPo  Frost 

or  electrical  engineersc 

Mro  Tower,  the  Chief  Inspector  of  Mines,  was 
appointed  in  July  of  1936,  and  was  made  Chief  Inspector 
in  1939 o   He  has  been  in  the  service  for  nine  years o 
The  experience  that  Mro  Tower  has  had  before  his  appoint- 
ment was  that  he  graduated  from  Queen's  University  in 
Mining  and  Metallurgy  in  1912 o   He  was  for  two  years 
coal  mining  in  British  Columbia  and  for  several  years 
shift  boss  and  mine  foreman  with  the  International  Nickel 
Company o   He  was  three  years  a  lieutenant  v;ith  the 
Canadian  Tunneling  Company  in  France;  and  six  years  as 
shift  captain  with  the  Bollinger  Companyo   Then  three 
years  as  shift  captain  at  the  Lake  Shore  Mines » 

The  Inspector  at  Timmins,  Mr,  Weir,  was  appointed 
to  the  service  in  December,  1934,  and  has  been  in  the  ser- 
vice now  for  ten  yearso   His  experience  before  his  appoint- 
ment was  that  he  graduated  from  Queen's  University  in 
Mining  and  Metallurgy  in  1926,   He  had  two  years  mining 
experience,  two  years  underground  at' the  Frood  Mine, 
International  Kickel  Company;  two  years  underground  at 
Bollinger.   His  special  qualifications  are  that  he  is 
a  graduate  in  mining  and  electrical  engineering  and  has  a 
technical  training.   He  has  been  supervising  engineer 
of  the  rescue  force  at  the  Timmins  Mine, 

Those  are  typical,   I  have  the  qualifications  of 
all  the  inspectors  in  connection  with  mining  in  Ontario,  and 
shall  be  glad  to  give  them  to  the  hon,  members  of  this  House, 
if  they  desire  to  have  them. 

As  Was  contained  in  the  little  green  pamphlet  that 
was  placed  on  your  desks  on  Friday,  I  should  say  that  the 
Mining  Department  goes  back  to  1920,  and  grew  out  of  the 

1  eav 




8    • 



-  381  -  2-26-45 

MTo  Frost 

Ministry  of  Mines o   The  regulations  were  contained  in 
Part  VIII  of  tile  Mining  Act,  particularly  Section  I6O0 

The  background  of  that  particular  section  is 
this:   In  1938  a  complete  revision  of  the  Mines  Act  or 
Mines  regulations  was  projected,  and  a  conference  was  held 
of  the  various  mines  inspectors  here  in  the  city  of  Toronto; 
and  at  that  time  there  was  information  very  widely  distri- 
buted throughout  Northern  Ontario  with  the  general  purpose 
of  getting  ideas  in  connection  with  Mines  Regulations,  and 
getting  machinery  set  up  in  the  various  mining  camps  in 
Northern  Ontarioo    That  was  done. 

At  that  time  labour  was  consulted  and  the  labour 
representatives  reported  separately  to  the  department 
here  in  Toronto.   I  well  recollect  the  time  when  the 
amendment  was  brought  into  the  House  in  1939 o   At  that 
time  I  sat  in  the  seat  occupied  by  the  hon,  member  for 
Rainy  River  (Mr.  Lockhart ) ,  and  the  Hon,  Mro  Leduc  brought 
in  the  regulations,  and  I  remember  the  considerationwhieh 
that  particular  section  received  at  that  time. 

For. the  information  of  the  House,  I  might  just 
briefly  summarize  some  of  the  points  in  section  160,  which 
refer  to  the  Paymaster  situations   Subsection  139  of  the 
Regulations  has  to  do  with  the  cage  or  skip  for  handling 
men.   Section  141  has  to  do  with  all  cages  or  skips  for 
raising  and  lowering  men,  and- gives  particulars  of  what 
is  necessary^  Section  147  is  hoist  or  stoppage  for 
repairs o 

Rules  165,  166,  167  and  168  refer  to  the  examina- 
tion of  hoisting  equipment <>   Rules  169  to  179,  inclusive, 
refer  to  a  number  of  things  such  as  the  history  of  the  rope 
and  the  fact  that  the  hoist  rope  is  not  to  be  spliced,  and 


-  322  -  2-26-45 

Mr,  Frost 

the  length  of  the  rope  required  on  the  drum  when  the  cage 
is  at  the  bottom,  and  a  large  number  of  things,  which  the 
hon,  members  will  see  for  themselves. 

Section  177  refers  to  the  testing  of  the  hoist 

rope  o 

I  should  say  to  hon.  members  that  in  the  Mines 
Department,  in  the  east  block,  we  have  one  of  the 
largest  testing  machines  in  the  British  Empire,  which 
is  capable  of  breaking  a  rope  with  a  million  pounds 
capacity.   It  is  the  largest  machine  in  Canada  and  the 
Royal  Canadian  Navy  use  it  at  the  present  time  in  con- 
nection with  their  worko 

Sections  168  and  179  deal  with  all  matters  in 
connection  with  hoists  and  ropes  and  the  tests  that  are 

I  should  say  this  to  you,  that  I  find  that  the 
question  of  safety  devices  with  catches  is  a  very  large 
and  difficult  questiono   In  South  Africa,  where  their 
rules  are  considerably  like  ours,  in  some  ways,  it  is 
said  that  the  South  African  rules  are  stricter  than  ours. 
It  should  be  said  that  they  rely  upon  the  cable  itself, 
without  any  safety  device o   Their  reason  for  doing  that 
is  because  they  contend  that  with  very  heavy  equipment, 
safety  devices  are  of  very  little  value.   Our  Mines  De- 
partment has  never  taken  that  viewo    Hono  members  can 
see  that  if  the  lift  or  elevator  itself  is  raised  up  and 
a  break  takes  place  when  the  lift  is  going  up,  then  it 
comes  to  a  point  of  rest  before  it  starts  down;  and  in 
that  point  of  rest  the  brake  would  take  effect. 

On  the  other  hand,  if  the  cable  breaks  while 
the  carriage  is  going  down  —  which  is  very  seldom  —  the 



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-  323  -  2-26-45 

Mto  Frost 

momentum  would  be  such  that  the  blochs  would  not  be  en- 
gaged or  if  they  did  they  would  simply  tear  down  a 
portion  of  the  shaft  and  would  not  act  as  a  brake  at 

MR.  ANDERSON:  Particularly  at  high  speeds. 

MR.  FROST:  Particularly  at  high  speeds.   I 
do  not  think  it  would  be  proper  for  me  to  discuss  this 
matter  fully,  particularly  on  any  controversial  matter; 
but  the  hon.  members  here  who  are  familiar  with  mining 
operations  know  that  these  shafts  are  very  deep  and  the 
cages  travel  at  very  great  rates  of  speed. 

You  will  see  that  if  the  cage  is  dropping  down 
in  this  manner  the  pressure  you  would  imagine  would  be  off 
the  cable  itself »   The  cable  goes  up  and  over  a  shaft 
wheel  and  on  to  a  drum,  and  acts  as  a  means  by  which  the 
cage  is  stopped  or  changedo 

In  this  case  the  rope  broke  just  as  it  was  going 
over  the  drum,  and  the  brake  would  be  the  least  capable 
of  working  for  the  reason  that  when  the  cable  is  under 
pressure  it  acts  as  a  brake  itself »   But  when  it  is  at 
depth,  it  is  different.   There  are  many  items  that  come 
up  when  you  start  studying  the  matter  of  cable  devices. 

As  I  say,  the  African  rules  were  stricter  than 
our  own  in  some  particulars  and  for  the  obvious  reason  that 
they  are  not  dealing  with  the  type  of  labour  that  we  are 
dealing  with  in  this  country.   In  Africa  everyone  of  any 
responsibility  in  mining  Is  under  the  strictest  super- 
vision in  connection  with  the  efficiency  of  safety 
deviceso   However,  we  have,  as  I  say,  these  contro- 
versies which  we  find  exist  particularly  In  connection 
with  heavy  equipment.   Now,  as  you  can  quite  see,  sup- 
posing a  safety  device  does  not  work,  supposing  the  cage 

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-  324  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  Frost 

is  going  down  at  a  great  speed  and  safety  device  worked, 
it  might  just  drop  down  from  the  ceiling  of  this  chamber 
to  the  floor  when  the  safety  device  worked.   As  I  say, 
you  get  a  great  deal  of  controversy  in  connection  with 
this  particular  matter. 

Now,  Mr a  Speaker,  we  have  decided  this:   Seeing 
the  difficulties  that  there  are  in  connection  with  the 
whole  safety  device  matter  and  the  fact  that  some  people 
think  that  despite  everything  it  is  better  to  depend  on 
the  strength  of  the  cable  itself,  we  have  felt  we  should 
make  certain  inquiries  into  the  whole  matter  of  safety 
tests  and,  furthermore,  some  tests  which  can  be  made  of 
the  cable  itselfo   Now»  our  Regulations  prevent  the 
use  of  a  spliced  rope^   It  may  be  that  our  Mine  Regu- 
lations should  be  changed  in  that  regard o   As  I  say, 
advances  have  been  made  to  us  in  connection  with  elec- 
tronic device  to  test  the  strength  of  cable  by  means  of 
electricityo   It  may  be  quite  possible  to  devise  some 
method  of  that  sort  which  would  keep  the  cable  con- 
stantly under  supervision  by  means  of  the  cable  run  by 
some  electronic  device  in  its  ordinary  operation.   If 
that  were  done  of  course  it  would  get  away  from  the  diffi- 
culty of  merely  testing  the  cable  at  one  place,  and  that  is 
immediately  above  the  skip  itselfo 

To  give  this  matter  impartial  consideration  and  to 
bring  into  the  whole  problem  fresh  minds  we  cast  about  for 
some  days  to  determine  what  was  the  proper  thing  to  do. 
We  finally  turned  to  the  Engineering  Department  of  the  Uni- 
versity of  Toronto,  and  we  have  asked  a  committee  headed  by 
Dean  Young  to  act  in  the  matter  of  the  investigation  of  the 
whole  thingo   The  reference  that  Dean  Young  and  his 


,v:Be   I   8/        .  boM70r  eoivefc  vJ-e^ss   erfit   .-r.^.-far  Tr,,-.  "r   :-)rt.! 


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-  325  -  2-S6-45 

Uto   Frost 

committee  have  been  given  is  quite  broad,  and,  to  be 
quite  frank,  we  left  off  tbat  committee  any  mining  men 
at  all,  for  the  reason  that  they  have  been  dealing  with 
the  problem  and  we  wanted  a  Jury  of  fresh  minds  to  look 
into  the  matter  from  the  scientific  standpoint <>   We  have 
asked  Dean  Young's  committee  to  investigate  these  matterso 

(1)  The  cause  or  causes  of  the  accident o   That 
may  be  a  matter  that  will  not  require  any  investigationo 
It  may  be  crystal  clear  when  the  inquest  is  heldo 

(2)  The  practicability  of  devising  improved 
methods  of  inspection  for  the  purpose  of  disclosing  any 
weakness  of  a  hoisting  rope  or  its  attachments,  or  any 
defects  in  the  hoisting  machinery.   Now  that  is  something 
that  obviously  this  committee  can  look  into  and  look  into 
very  thoroughly  <> 

(3)  The  practicability  of  devising  safety  devices 
that  would  effectively  arrest  the  drop  of  a  cage  or  skip, 
if  the  supporting  rope  should  break  or  slip,  or  the 
hoisting  machinery  should  get  out  of  control. 

(4)  The  possibility  of  improving  existing  regu- 
lations pertaining  to  the  safety  of  operation  of  mining 

The  committee,  as  I  stated »  Mr.  Speaker,  is  under 

Doctor  Young,  Dean  of  Engineering  at  the  University  of 

Toronto,  and  consists  of: 

Professor  To  Ro  Loudon,  head  of  the 

Department  of  Civil  Engineering 

Professor  Eo  Ao  Allcut,  head  of  the 

Department  of  Mechanical  Engineering 

Professor  Vo  Go  Smith,  of  the  Department 
of  Electrical  Engineering,  and 

Professor  Lloyd  Mo  Pidgeon,  head  of  the 
Department  of  Metallurgical 

0cf  9»iitmsioo 

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-  326  -  2-26-45 

MTp  Frost 

Mpo  Speaker,  that  ia  about  all  of  the  information 
that  I  can  give  at  the  present  time,  and  I  simply  desire 
to  reiterate  what  I  have  said,  tliat  there  is  not  anything 
that  we  will  not  do  in  connection  with  this  matter  of 
looking  into  improved  methods  of  inspection  and  improved 
safety  devices,  and  I  say  to  hon.  members  of  this  House, 
if  any  of  you  want  to  give  us  any  information  or  have  any 
suggestion  that  you  feel  would  help  us  we  would  be  glad 
to  have  ito   I  think  the  Deputy  Minister  of  Mines  is  here; 
if  you  want  to  see  him  or  see  myself  at  any  time,  come 

MR.  WILLIAM  J.  GRUMMETT  (Cochrane  South):   I  beg 
to  congratulate  the  Minister  of  Mines  (Mr.  Frost)  on  his 
very  full  explanation  of  this  pointo   I  do  not  believe 
I  would  be  right,  Mro  Speaker,  in  discussing  this  accidanto 
I  do  not  wish  to  infringe  on  the  rights  of  the  inquest,  and 
I  only  hope  that  later  on  the  Minister  will  allow  us  to 
discuss  this  whole  question  after  the  inquest  has  disposed 
of  the  matter.    We  can  then  discuss  the  whole  question, 
and  perhaps  we  can  arrive  at  some  conclusion  which  would 
prevent  an  accident  of  this  nature  in  the  future*    The 
Minister  has  pointed  out  many  angles  that  have  occurred 
to  some  of  us,  and  I  am  sure  we  are  willing  and  ready 
to  cooperate  with  him  in  preventing  accidents  of  this 
nature,  and  as  soon  as  the  inquest  is  over  we  shall  cer- 
tainly contact  the  Minister  and  discuss  it,, 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Orders  of  the  Day, 

MR,  DREW:   First  order o 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE t   First  order,  third  reading  of 
Bill  NOo  25,  "An  Act  to  provide  for  the  Voting  of  Active 
Service  Voters  at  a  General  Election  to  the  Assembly o* 

aoi.7  t»3lfl»q8   .iM 


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tHc  W  am  Mt 

-  327  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  Blackwell 

HON.  LESLIE  E.  BLACKWELL  (Attorney  General):  Mr. 
Speaker,  I  move  that  Bill  Noo  25,  "An  Act  to  provide  for 
the  Voting  of  Active  Service  Voters  at  a  General  Election 
to  the  Assembly,"  be  now  read  for  the  third  time. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  third  time* 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):   Order  No»  5. 
Mr.  Speaker,  I  move  that  you  dc  now  leave  the  chair  and  the 
House  resolve  itself  into  Committee  of  the  Whole  to  consider 
certain  billso 

Motion  agreed  tOo 

The  House  in  Committee:  Mr.  Reynolds  in  the  chair. 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   The  House  in  Committee  on 
Bill  Noo  26,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Mental  Hospitals  Act.* 

Sectidns  1  and  2  agreed  tOo 

MR.  DREW:   Order  Noo  6. 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   Sixth  order.   House  in  Com- 
mittee on  Bill  No,  27,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Children*3 
Protection  Acto* 

MR.  WILLIAM  DENNI30N  (St.  David):  Mr.  Chairman, 
I  would  like  to  draw  the  attention  of  hon.  members  to  this 
amendment  which  in  effect  rather  weakens  the  authority  of 
social  workers.   It  deprives  them  of  the  authority  they 
previously  had  regarding  the  well-being  of  a  child  who 
might  be  neglected.   In  other  words,  before  this  is  passed 
the  Act  as  it  now  stands  would  allow  any  social  worker,  for 
instance,  to  require  parents  to  look  after  the  well-being 
of  a  child  and  any  nurse  or,  I  suppose,  the  superintendent 
of  any  Children's  Aid.   At  the  present  time  we  are  taking 
away  from  those  people  that  responsibility  they  previously  had 
and  we  are  putting  that  responsibility  solely  on  a  physician. 

Now,  a  physician  might  not  in  the  first  instance 
know  the  case.   Physicians  very  seldom  in  the  larger  cities  -• 


C    V.-T; 




•oiiow  XbIooc 

-  328  -  2-26-45 

Mro  Dennison 

—  in  the  smaller  places  they  do  perhaps  --  but  in  the 
larger  places  it  is  the  social  worker  or  the  minister  or 
someone  who  knows  whether  a  child  is  being  neglected, 
Mow,  previous  to  that,  that  parent  would  have  been  pre- 
sumed to  have  been  neglecting  their  child  if  they  refused 
to  have  proper  medical  attention  or  look  after  the  well- 
being  of  the  child  when  it  was  brought  to  their  attention 
by  a  social  worker o   This  may  not  be  the  case,   I  may 
be  wrong  in  that  interpretation  of  the  statute.   But 
in  reading  the  two  statutes  and  comparing  them  it  seems 
to  me  this  amendment  weakens  rather  than  strengthens  the 
protection  we  are  going  to  give  the  children, 

HON,  R.  P.  VIVIAN  (Minister  of  Public  Welfare): 
I  think  the  point  of  the  hon,  member  is  well  taken  but  I 
would  like  to  direct  his  attention  to  the  Act  itself* 

MR,  DENNISON:   It  is  on  page  4153,  section  7, 
MR.  VIVIAN:  The  purpose  of  thia  amendment  i8 
to  define  more  accurately  than  occurs  in  the  present  Act 
"neglected  child**  and  I  would  refer  the  hon,  member  to 
section  7  regarding  "apprehension  of  neglected  children,'* 


Thia  proposed  amendment  has  to  deal  with  effective  methods 
of  dealing  with  problems  of  this  sort,  and  I  think  you  will 
find  in  that  first  section  of  Paragraph  (J)  from  1  down. 
Nothing  has  been  done  in  this  amendment  which  would  take 
away  from  those  people  that  right  or  privilege  but 
when  it  comes  to  the  proposed  amendment  "competent  author- 
ity" as  at  present  in  the  Act  is  insufficiently  clear  for 
a  Judge  to  make  a  proper  decision  regarding  a  problem  of 
communicable  disease  and,  Mr.  Chairman,  I  do  not  think 
the  hon.  member  (Mr,  Dennison)  is  suggesting  that  any 
welfare  agency  is  competent  to  judge  whether  or  not  it 
is  a  communicable  disease.   I  think  perhaps  that  is 


aiiiDii  t 


noo   fl  ei 

-  329  -  3-26-45 

Mr»  Vivian 

tlie  pointo 

MR.  E.  B.  J0LLIFF3  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
There  is  a  further  point  which  might  help  to  clear  up  the 
matter.    The  effect  of  the  change  really  is  that  the  words 
which  previously  read  •ordered  by  competent  authority* 
become  now  *when  recommended  by  a  duly  qualified  medical 
practitioner.*   I  believe  that  is  correct.   I  take  it, 
therefore,  that  the  department's  difficulty  has  been  with 
the  words  "ordered  by  competent  authority*  and  I  would  like 
the  Minister  to  tell  us  just  in  practice  what  those  words 
do  mean  "when  ordered  by  competent  authority.*    I  think 
it  is  clear  what  the  new  amendment  means.   He  might  tell 
us  how  the  old  words  worked  and  what  difficulty  was 

MR.  VIVIAN:  It  is  a  difference  of  interpretation. 
There  are  certain  sections  of  the  province  in  which  it  is 
possible  to  secure  proper  attention  for  neglected  children 
who  have  been  excluded  from  school  because  of  communicable 
disease,  neglected  by  parents  and  brought  into  court  i  ^C 
in  which  the  judge  has  ordered  that  proper  attention  be 
given  to  them, and  that  attention  has  been  given.   But  in 
the  City  of  Toronto  there  seems  to  be  some  difficulty  in  - 
interpretation  of  what  is  meant  by  "competent  authority* 
and  this  is  inserted  to  assist  the  City  of  Toronto  and 
others  to  be  able  to  decide  what  is  *oompetent  authority* 
and  as  far  as  communicable  diseases  are  concerned  we 
believe  competent  medical  authority  is  competent  authority. 

Sections  1  and  2  agreed  tOo 

Bill  reperted. 

MR.  DREW:   Order  No,  7, 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   Seventh  order,  "Bill  No.  28, 


,as  ,©vi 

SI    8Sfl« 

J- em 

Xaoxc^sa  i>o. 






^low  bio  s 

w        vy  i> 

-  330  -  2-26-45 

*An  Act  to  amend  the  Territorial  Districts  Acto* 

THE  CHA-IRMAN:   Shall  clause  1  form  part  of  the  bill? 

MR.  BERTRAM  E.  LEAVENS  (Woodbine):   If  the  Minister 
will  explain  this  —  the  other  day  in  explaining  it  he  had 
two  interpretatioAa  which  rather  got  me  mixed  up  before  he 
got  through,   I  would  like  him  to  explain  the  whole  thing 
to  me  again, 

HON,  WESLEY  &,  THOMPSON  (Minister  of  Lands  and 
Forests):  Mr,  Chairman,  I  will  try  and  repeat  and  make 
myself  more  clear.   In  1899  the  Township  of  Coffin  and 
Coffin-additional  were  changed  to  Aberdeen  but  at  that 
time  n»  mention  was  made  of  Aberdeen-additional,  and  this 
is  clarifying  Aberdeen-additional  to  straighten  out  some 
difficulties  in  sending  out  tax  billso 

MR.  LEAVENS:   I  wish  to  apologize  to  the  hon. 
Ministero   I  was  thinking  of  the  other, 

MR.  W.  LYNN  MILLER  (Algoma-Manitoulin) :   I  might 
say  the  township  referred  to  happens  to  come  within  the 
glorious  riding  of  Algoma-Manitoulin,  and  I  do  not  think 
the  CCF  will  have  anything  to  do  with  it. 

Bill  reported. 

MR.  DREW:   Order  No.  8. 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   Order  NOo  8,  Bill  No.  29, 
•An  Act  to  amend  the  Surveys  Act,"  Mr.  Thompson. 

MR,  LEAVENS:   I  might  say  that  that  was  the  one 
I  was  confused  on. 

THE  CHAIRMAN:   Shall  section  1  form  part  of  the 

MR.  ARTHUR  A.  CASSELMAN{Nipissing) :  I  think,  Mr. 
Chairman,  if  the  hon.  Minister  in  charge  of  this  bill  would 
give  a  little  lecture  on  this  astronomic  course,  probably  we 


.'ioA  aiotiiAlQ  iBlioitriel  &si:i  bnesaa  ot  toA  nA* 

raid  8x1 

ban  8ba«J 

,  ,.f  ,    ^  -rf^  -rJf 


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)S     iijEiic 



3  avis 

-  331  -  2-26-45 


could  all  understand  the  bill,  but  I  think  the  bill  is 
quite  cleaPa 

MR.  GEORGE  I.  HARVEY  (Sault  Ste<,  Marie):   The  only 
thing  I  could  suggest  is  that  in  re-surveying  properties,  my 
only  hope  is  that  this  amendment  to  the  Act  will  not  in  any 
way  change  the  physical  assets  of  the  property.   That  is 
my  understanding, 

MR.  THOMPSON:   It  cannot o 

MR.  E.  B.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
That  is  not  what  has  been  clearly  explained  to  some  hon. 
members  of  this  House,  at  leasts   What  they  have  been  given 
to  understand  so  far  is  that  the  bill  will  make  some  changes 
in  the  survey  lines, but  it  does  not  make  any  difference. 

MR.  THOMPSON:   This  only  applies  where  the  lines 
have  never  been  run.   That  is  why  it  does  not  change  any 
property  of  any  individual. 

MR.  JOLLIFFE:   No  existing  rights  affected? 

MR.  THO^IPSON:   Right. 

Sections  1  and  2  agreed  to. 

Bill  reported. 

MR.  DREW:   I  move  that  the  Committee  do  now  rise 
and  report  certain  Bills., 

Motion  agreed  to. 

The  House  resumed:  Mr.  Speaker  in  the  chair. 

MR.  WALTER  B.  REYNOLDS  (Leeds):   Mr,  Speaker,  the 
Committee  of  the  Souse  begs  to  report  certain  bills. 

Motion  agreed  tOo 

MR.  DREW:   Order  No»  9» 

CLERK   OF  THE  HOUSE:      Llinth  order,    second  reading  of 
Bill  NOo   30,    •The  Voters'   List   Act,    1945,*     Mr.    Blackwell. 

HON.   LESLIE  E.    BLACKV-'ELL    (Attorney  General):      Mr. 




"iD   -ret* 



-qai   bus 

-  332  -  2-26-45 


Spealter,  before  proceeding  with  the  second  reading  of 
Item  Noo  9,  "The  Vcters'  Liat  Act,  1945,*  I  would  indicate 
to  the  House  that  that  bill  and  the  succeeding  bill  have 
been  printed  and  in  the  books  ever  the  weekend,   Thi» 
bill  and  the  succeeding  bill  represent  legislation  to 
implement  principles  recommended  by  the  Select  Committee 
on  the  Election  Acto    If,  however,  the  Leader  of  the 
Opposition  or  for  that  matter  any  other  group  in  the  House 
feel  that  there  has  not  been  time  to  give  consideration 
to  Acta  of  that  length  and  would  wish  the  second  readings 
postponed  until  the  next  day,  I  would  be  quite  prepared  to 
do  so.    If,  on  the  other  hand,  the  House  is  ready  for 
the  second  reading,  I  am  quite  prepared  to  move  them. 

MR.  E.  B.  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
Well,  I  do  not  think  we  have  any  objection, as  far  as  this 
bill  is  concerned,  to  proceeding  with  the  second  reading. 
I  assume  he  will  be  speaking  on  it  at  some  length  and  I 
know  there  are  some  hon.  members  who  wish  also  to  speak 
on  ito   If  that  is  so,  it  may  be  necessary  to  adjourn 
the  debate.   I  am  not  suggesting  there  is  going  to  be 
great  controversy  about  it,  but  there  are  some  things  I 
think  ought  to  be  said  on  second  reading.   I  would  suggest 
that  the  Attorney  General  move  the  second  reading. 

MR.  BLACKWELL:   Mr.  Speaker,  I  quite  appreciate  that 
some  hon.  members  of  the  House  may  have  a  substantial  amount 
to  say  on  second  reading.   My  only  thought  was  that  some 
of  the  hon,  members  had  not  an  opportunity  to  adequately 
examine  the  bill*   I  wish  to  make  clear  if  the  hon<>  members 
felt  that  they  had  not  an  opportunity  to  adequately  examine 
the  bill,  I  did  not  wish  to  precipitate  the  debate* 

Mr.  Speaker,  quite  contrary  to  the  expectation  of 

1©   31;  aoes    an.:                         ■■aoniq   ©-icieu    ,T8iiiaq[o 

•?B0.  w  I   ",3^                              'sieJwT   ©liTT   ,C   .^H  cie^I 

9T,<.-                 ,  if69»ooj78    f  .  "    cfBff:?   scuoE   erff   c:r 

to'i  ■ ....    .... 

•  Jt  ^a   ariiJ 

e  .  -,  .    ..  - 

I   bas  ;  ff   sd   onuieaA  I 

f  «  rfi  *^  ■  n 


^19C  fix  9 

■  ert.L  - 1©1 

■'    srfcf 

-  335  -  2-26-45 


the  hon.  Leader  of  the  Opposition,  in  so  far  as  I  am 
concerned  I  do  not  propose  to  make  a  lengthy  speech  on 
the  principles  of  The  Voters*  List  Act,  19456   For  me 
to  do  so  would,  in  my  view,  exhaust  the  patience  of  the 
House o   Sufficient  for  me  to  say  that  the  report  of  the 
select  committee,  of  which  I  was  chairman  when  it  report- 
ed, came  to  certain  conclusions  and  make  unanimous  recom- 
mendations on  those  conclusionso   As  a  result,  the  Govern- 
ment, through  myself  as  responsible  minister  in  the  matter, 
has  seen  fit  to  introduce  legislation  termed  "The  Voters* 
List  Act,  1945,"  which,  according  to  the  view  of  the 
Government,  implements  the  recommendations  unanimously 
made  by  the  committee »   The  principles  of  what  is  recom- 
mended by  the  committee  are  fully  set  out  in  the  report 
and  for  me  to  simply  review  what  no  doubt  every  hon.  member 
of  the  Legislature  has  by  now  read  would  be  tedious.   It 
may  be  that  there  are  some  hoh»  members  who  are  in  disagree- 
ment with  those  principles  and  who  wish  to  debate  them  but 
that,  of  course,  is  open  to  them,  but  so  far  as  I  am  con- 
cerned as  a  member  of  the  Government,  I  now  move  that  The 
Voters'  List  Act,  1945,  be  now  read  the  second  time, 

MR.  WILLIAM  DENNISON  (St.  David):   In  speaking  to 
the  principle  of  this  bill,  I  want  to  say  that  the  group 
representing  all  sides  of  the  House,  who  met  and  spent  many 
days  going  over  these  bills,  did  a  very  good  job.   I  believe 
that  if  these  bills  are  passed  Ontario  will  have  perhaps  the 
best  voters'  lists  legislation  we  have  had  for  many  years. 
I  was  sorry,  however,  during  the  sittings,  or  when  we  dis- 
cussed these  bills,  that  we  did  not  admit  the  public  or 
the  press.   The  first  meeting  we  held  I  recall  it  was  the 
hon.  member  for  Bellwoods  (Mr.  MacLeod)  and  the  hon. 

9rf  r 







..iw  aaa 



-■  cfnrft-T! 


-  334  -  2-26-45 


Provincial  Treasurer  (Mro  Fr»st)  who  made  a  motion  that 
we  issue  a  statement  from  time  t©  time  rather  than  admit- 
ting the  public  or  the  press, and  that  carried, over  my 
opposition.   I  d«  not  say  that  the  Voters'  list  Act> 
as  we  have  now  drawn  it,  is  the  last  word,  because  I  be- 
lieve had  we  allowed  the  public  to  sit  in  —  it  has  been 
my  experience  in  matters  of  this  kind  that  if  you  let  the 
public  sit  in,  if  you  give  the  widest  possible  attention 
in  the  press  to  these  matters,  you  get  ideas  sent  in  by 
the  general  public  of  reforms  of  the  subject  matter  under 
discussion*  •  So  that  while  I  think  we  have  accomplished 
a  good  deal,  there  may  be  many  objections  we  would  have 
had  and  many  suggestions  we  would  have  had  from  the 
general  public  had  we  been  able  to  give  them  a  greater 
opportunity  of  knowing  what  was  going  on  in  the  mind  of 
the  committee  from  time  to  time,  as  we  did  in  that  Lignite 
Committee,  for  instance,  where  we  did  get  plenty  of  such 
suggestions  from  the  general  publico 

I  make  this  suggestion  now,  that  in  future  I 
believe  select  committees  of  this  House  should  be  wide 
open  to  the  public  and  to  the  press. 

Now,  there  were  suggestions  I  made  which  would 
have  altered  the  principle  of  this  bill  and  I  want  to 
bring  these  to  the  attention  of  the  House  so  that  when  — 

MR.  BIACKWELL:   Before  the  hon.  member  for  St. 
David  (Mr.  Dennison)  proceeds,  I  would  like  to  make  a 
point  of  order,  if  I  might.   The  fact  of  the  matter  is, 
Mr.  Speaker,  that  the  remarks  that  the  hon.  member  for 
St.  David  (Mr,  Dennison)  has  so  far  directed  to  the  House 
have  not  the  slightest  thing  to  do  with  the  principle  of 
this  billo   They  are  directed  to  the  presentation  of  an 

3*  •■  i^^i 

-ed   i   fti  ,  6to.--  -ait)  v 

need  8«xf  ti    -■  ~-dj   69w«   n'!?  b 

16(1X9    \i3. 

«s.    ^     ^  Inr- 

leJBd'ia  B  at? 

©blur  e-  '    aeeir  ^alaa  -"d 

*'  vsl  da  8£xi  (aaaiiineC 

lO    «Irrif>:..  ?•    .3f-, 

-  335  -  2-26-45 

Mr » Black we 11 

entirely  personal  view  —  that  the  public  should  have 
been  generally  admitted  to  the  hearings  of  the  committee. 
That  has  no  relation  whatever  to  the  principles  of  the 
^ill  under  discussion,, 

MR.  RIGG3:   He  is  leading  up  to  that, 

MR.  BLACKWELL:   If  the  hon.  member  had  anything 
worthwhile  to  direct  to  me ,  I  would  be  pleased  to  have  it. 
Now  that  the  hon,  member  for  3t.  David  has,  quite  out  of 
©rder,  made  a  statement  as  to  his  personal  views,  I,  as 
chairman  of  the  committee,  should  like  to  say  on  the 
point  of  order  that  the  consensus  of  opinion  of  the 
members  of  the  committee  was  that  the  public  should  not 
be  present  at  these  hearings,  was  a  unanimous  decision, 
with  the  exception  of  one  minority  vote,  and  that  de- 
cision Was  reached  for  the  obvious  reason  that  it  was 
the  desire  of  all  the  members  of  the  committee  that  they 
should  be  perfectly  free  to  think  out  loud  and  speak  out 
loud  -- 

MR.  LEAVENS:   What  is  the  point  of  order? 

MR.  oPEAKER:   I  have  the  point  of  order. 

MR.   LEAVENS:   As  I  understand,  on  a  point  of 
order,  a  member  is  not  allowed  to  make  a  speech. 

MR.  BLACKWELL:   I  am  ©n  the  point  of  order,  and 
am  first  dealing  with  the  out  of  order  remarks  of  the  hon. 
member  for  3t,  David,, 

MR.  SPEAKER:   I  think  I  can  settle  this  — 

MR.  BLACKWELL:   I  am  just  about  through,  Mr. 
Speaker  o 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Just  a  minute,  please,   I  appeal 
to  every  hon.  member  of  the  House.  Let  us  cooperate  fully 
as  we  did  last  week.  May  I  say  to  the  hon.  member  for 
St.  David  that  it  is  quite  improper  to  reflect  upon  the 

3WJ!o  C 


6       X   ij  'J 

J-—-      I 



-  336  -  2-26-45 


actions  of  the  House  in  regard  to  any  former  decision. 
If  there  is  any  objection  to  take  as  to  the  manner  in 
which  the  committee  was  conducted,  the  proper  time  is 
then  the  report  is  presented.   Let  us  get  on  to  a  dis- 
cussion of  the  bill,  and  never  mind  what  happened  in 

MR.  JOLLIFFE;    I  would  like  to  sui^gest  this, 
I  think  the  hon<>  member  for  Sto  David  (Mr.  Dennison)  was 
moving  on  to  a  different  point,  but  I  would  point  out 
that  when  the  hon.  Attorney  General  (MroBlackwell)  w^s 
introducing  the  report  of  the  committee  he  made  a  sug- 
gestion which  I  thought  was  a  good  one,  that  we  should 
deal  first  with  the  bill;,  and- if  there  then  remained 
anything  to  be  said,  one  way  or  the  other,  about  the 
report,  that  would  be  an  appropriate  time  to  say  it. 

Now,  when  I  say  that  was  a  "good  suggestion," 
I  have  in  mind  that  in  discussing  the  bills  themselves, 
there  should  necessarily  be  a  certain  amount  of  latitude. 
The  committee  is  not  sancrosanct,  and  while  the  remarks 
of  the  hon.  member  for  St.  David  may  not  have  been 
entirely  addressed  to  the  principle  of  the  bill,  I  would 
like  to  see  a  little  latitude  allowed  in  this  debate. 

MR.   SPEAKER:   I  think  I  allowed  that  latitude 
in  allowing  the  hon,  member  for  St.  David  to  make  the 
statement.   It  was  only  for  the  benefit  of  the  House  that 
I  made  the  statement  I  did;  let  us  get  on  with  the  principle 
©f  the  billo 

MR.  DENNISON:   Mr.  Speaker,  the  hon.  Attorney 
General  raised  the  point  of  order,  and  succeeded  in  dis- 
cussing the  question  I  raised  in  regard  to  whether  or 
not  we  should  have  invited  more  opinions  from  the  general 
public.   I  do  not  say  that  every  one  supported  me,  but 




B  B^-n 


?in    &?!- 

-  337  -  2-26-45 

Mr o Dennis on 

that  was  my  opinion,  and  I  still  hold  the  opiniono 

I  now  want  to  draw  the  attention  of  the  House  t© 
the  principle  of  this  bill,  or  certain  deficiencies  in  the 
principle  of  this  billo   It  seems  t©  me  that  any  bill  pro- 
viding for  voters'  lists  should  recognize  the  principle 
adopted  in  other  parts  of  the  British  Empire,  that  one  man 
has  a  right  to  one  vote  and  one  vote  onlyo   I  saw  in  the 
press  the  other  day  that  in  Great  Britain  they  have  now 
eliminated  even  the  meagre  restrictions  they  previously  had 
on  the  right  of  a  person  to  vote  in  civic  elections,  on  the 
same  basis  as  they  do  in  their  federal  elections,  so  that 
in  Great  Britain,   right  now,  the  principle  of  *one  man 
one  vote**  in  that  election  applies  whether  that  man  is  rich 
or  whether  that  man  is  poor,  and  if  this  House  intends  to 
draw  up  a  proper  voters'  list  Act,  I  believe  that  is  one 
fundamental  principle  this  House  must  now  decide. 

There  was  a  time  in  Ontario  when,  in  provincial 
elections,  q  man  had  to  have  a  certain  amount  of  wealth, 
property  or  worldly  goods  before  he  had  the  right  to  vote 
for  a  member  of  this  Legislature o   There  was  a  great  re- 
form took  place  in  this  province  due  to  the  effort  of 
Loutt,  Matthews  and  others  in  the  early  days  of  this  pro- 
vince, and  that  reform  established  in  provincial  elections 
the  right  of  every  man  to  vote,  with  one  exception ,    We 
still  have  a  vestige  of  1835  remaining  on  our  statute  books 
in  this  Voters'  List  Act,  and  I  hope  that  will  also  be 
eliminated  by  the  House  at  a  later  stage.   We  still  make 
this  exception,  that  persons  who  are  living  in  a  house  of 
industry  or  a  house  of  refuge,  supported  in  part  by  muni- 
cipal funds,  are  denied  the  right  to  vote  in  this  fair 
province  of  Ontario  in  this  year  of  1945,  —  in  this  year 

Q3      db  WW . 

afim  en 







-  338  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  Dennlson 

when  we  are  giving  lip  servioe  to  the  principles  of  freedom, 
democracy  and  the   ideals  for  which  the  United  Nations  are 
fighting  on  the  battlefields  of  the  world  to-day. 

I  think  this  House  should  take  upon  itself  this 
session  the  task  of  wiping  that  blot  from  off  the  statute 
books  of  this  fair  province,  and  extend  to  every  man  and 
woman,  regardless  of  their  status  in  society,  and  the  amount 
of  their  property  or  goods  or  chattels,  which  they  may 
possess,  the  right  to  vote  at  all  times  in  provincial 

I  want  to  say  that  in  civic  elections,  under 
this  Voters'  List  Act,  not  only  do  we  fail  to  recognize 
that  principle  but  we  go  away  beyond  that  in  our  injustice 
to  democracy,  and  the  principles  of  democracy.   We  say 
that  in  certain  instances  a  man  in  the  city  which  is 
organized  on  a  ward  principle  shall  have  a  vote  in  every 
ward  in  which  he  owns  property.   In  the  city  of  Toronto 
some  men  have,  therefore,  nine  votes,  because  they  own  or 
rent  property  in  each  of  the  nine  wards,  and  they  may  live 
in  Forest  Hill  Village  and  they  get  their  vote  there  just 
the  same,  making  a  total  of  ten  votes  on  civic  election  day. 

MR.  DUNBAR:   Not  for  the  same  man. 

im.   DENIJI30N:   No,  not  for  the  same  man;  for  differ- 
ent aldermen  in  different  wards,  but  if  you  know  the  system 
we  have  for  presenting  plural  votes  for  rrayor  you  will  realize 
that  a  good  'many  plural  votes  go  in  for  mayor  right  across 
the  line,  and  there  is  little  we  can  do  about  it,  as  the  hon. 
member,  who  has  been  in  civic  life,  well  knows. 

I  would  like  to  say  that  I  consider  that  a  vicious 
principle  —  a  vicious  principle.   It  is  not  even  fair  to 
the  property  owners,  because  I  know  of  a  property  owner, 

jiaofeeeil  to   eelq 

,    elxlJ   Use.. 


SV  .'^ 

"isl'iib   -ro'i    :n?-TL  e 


aEoaos    Wt, 

■^    TO"! 

.no a   t 

Oj     IXSl    :19VS 

-  339  -  2-26-45 

Mpo  Dennis on 

Alderman  John  Innes,  in  this  city,  who  lives  in  the  riding 
represented  in  this  House  by  the  Hon.  Mro  Blackwell,  and 
he  has  nine  properties  in  one  ward  and  he  gets  but  one  vote. 
■A  few  years  ago  he  succeeded  in  getting  council  to  ask  the 
Legislature  to  abolish  this  plural  vote  system,  because, 
as  he  pointed  out,  why  should  he  only  have  one  vote  while 
his  neighbour  who  also  owns  nine  properties,  but  happens 
to  have  them  in  nine  different  wards,  has  nine  votes  for 
nine  different  aldermen. 

That  is  a  relic  of  the  past,  and  it  is  an  ex- 
pression of  a  principle  which  I  believe  is  a  wrong  prin- 
ciple in  the  Voters'  List  Act,  that  property  should  be 
the  measure  of  a  man's  ability  to  vote  in  any  election. 
I  believe  we  have  outgrown  that.   If  we  have  not,  we 
should  outgrow  it  at  this  session.   We  have  an  opportunity 
this  year  to  outgrow  it o 

Another  principle  I  think  we  should  establish  in 
the  provincial  Voters'  List  Act,  which  is  established  in  the 
civic  voters'  list  act,  is  this:   In  the  case  of  a  civic 
election,  if  a  voter  happens  to  be  left  off  the  voters' 
list,  inadvertently  or  otherwise,  he  does  not  thereby  lose 
his  right  as  a  citizen  to  go  before  the  returning  officer 
or  the  revising  officer  and  submit  the  names  of  people, 
including  himself,  who  should  be  added  to  the  list  or  should 
be  taken  off.   He  still  has  the  right  as  a  citizen  to  assure 
a  proper  voters'  list,  but  in  the  Act  that  was  presented 
to  this  House  a  provincial  voter,  if  he  is  left  off  the 
voters'  list,  loses  that  right;  he  cannot  go  before  a  board 
and  ask  to  have  names  taken  off  which  should  not  be  on,  nor 
can  he  go  before  the  board  and  ask  that  other  names  be 
added,  which  should  not  have  been  left  off o   He  can  only 

^  ?>.'.',  !Jf*0 



-  340  -  2-26-45 


ask  that  he  himself  be  put  on  the  voters'  list. 

It  seems  to  me  it  should  be  the  right  of  the  voter 
to  amend  or  correct  the  voters'  list,  and  that  that  right 
belongs  to  any  citizen  who  is  entitled  to  be  a  voter. 

Iffi.  DUNBAR:   Pardon  xne ,  Mr.  Speaker;  you  know  in 
the  municipal  Act  there  is  power  to  place  the  names  oil  the 
list,  but  no  power  to  remove  a  name.   Therefore,  we  are 
offering  an  amendment  this  session  to  rectify  that. 

MR.  DENNISOK:   Yes.   There  has  been  in  the  large 
municipalities  power  to  remove  a  name.    I  think  there  are 
three  distinct  forms  given,  one  for  the  name  to  be  added, 
one  for  names  that  have  been  misspelled,  and  one  that  names 
should  be  removedo   There  are  three  distinct  forms  in  the 
larger  cities. 

MR.  DUNBAR:   No  power  to  remove  it,  unless  he 
makes  that  reo^uest  himself.   A  man  could  live  in  Ottawa 
and  own  property  in  Toronto,  and  sell  it,  and  the  pur- 
chaser would  be  entitled  to  a  vote  here  and  the  man  who 
sold  the  property  could  eome  up  here  and  also  vote. 

im»   JOLLIFFE:  Mr.  Speaker,  I  do  not  propose  to 
speak  at  any  length  on  this  bill«»   I  merely  wish  to  say 
that,  in  my  opinion,  the  voters'  lists  Act  here  and  now 
proposed  represents  a  real  improvement  over  the  old  legis- 
lation in  many  respects,  and  I  am,  therefore,  in  favour  of 

I  say  that,  notwithstanding  the  fact  that  I  agree 
with  many  of  the  statements  that  have  been  made  by  the 
hon.  member  for  3t,  David  (Mr.  Dennison), 

However,  the  bill  upon  which  agreement  was  reached 
in  the  select  committee  does  improve  our  present  machinery 
for  assuring  correct  and  adequqte  voters'  lists  at  election 


.teJov   'I'ri.t  1 


\  f  ;  n  I 


-21:^9  _ 

a.i  a 

berfosflri  ■  Epw   j" nexus 9«i5ijs  rfolriv 

-  341  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

time.   It  may  be  in  these  modern  times  people  do  not 
appreciate  just  how  important  it  is  that  voters'  lists 
should  be  reasonably  correct,  or  they  may  have  found  out 
how  important  it  is,  in  the  general  election  of  1943. 
I  should  like  to  remind  the  House,  however,  of  an  exper- 
ience which  some  citizens  in  a  neighbouring  province  had 
seventy  or  eighty  years  ago,  when  it  was  alleged  that 
during  a  certain  election  in  our  neighbouring  province  a 
large  number  of  people,  long  since  dead,  had  been  placed 
on  the  voters'  list  and  had  actually  voted  during  the 

There  was  an  exhaustive  investigation,  and  it 
was  found  that  amongst  many  historic  figures  who  not  only 
appeared  on  the  voters'  list  but  who  had  actually  turned 
out  on  election  day  and  voted,  there  were  Napoleon 
Bonaparte,  Marie  Antoinette,  Julius  Caesar  and,  of  all 
people,  Judas  Iscariat,  who  appeared  on  the  voters'  list 
and  had  been  actually  recorded  as  voting  on  election  day. 

I  think  the  experience  on  that  occasion  only 
illustrates  how  important  it  is  that  the  proper  machinery 
should  be  provided  to  assure  a  complete  and  correct 
voters'  list. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  second  time. 

MR.  DREW:   Order  No.  10 

CLERK   OF   THE  HOUSES:    Tenth,  order,      second  reading 
of  Bill  No.   31,    "The  Elections  Act,    1945, ••  Mr.   Blackwell. 

MR.  BLACKWELL:  Mr.  Speaker,  I  presume  that  the 
hon.  Leader  of  the  Opposition  (Mr.  Jolliffe)  has  the  same 
attitude  with  regard  to  Bill  31,  that  he  feels  he  has  had 
an  opportunity  to  consider  it? 

toa  Ob 

Y-1  '-'sn.  TS' 

Jo  81 

^rf*     C^ET 

r>3£l  8sr. 


-  342  -  2-26-45 


¥R.   JOLLIFFE:   Mr,  Speaker,  I  do  not  know  that 
it  is  quite  fair  for  me  to  express  an  opinion  on  it. 
After  all,  I  was  a  member  of  the  select  committee.   Most 
hon.  members  of  the  House  were  not.   I  hesitate  to 
express  an  opinion  about  whether  we  ought  to  go  ahead 
with  second  reading  at  this  time.   I  know  that  one 
of  two  hon.  members  have  intimated  to  me  they  should 
like  a  little  more  time  to  consider  such  an  important 

4      MR.  DREW:   In  that  case,  we  will  withdraw 
second  reading  of  Bill  No.  31. 

Bill  stands. 

liR.  DREW:   Order  No.  11. 

CLERK  OF  TH3  H0U3E:   The  eleventh  order;  second 
reading  of  Bill  No.  32,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Counties* 
Reforestation  Act,"  Mr.  Thompson. 

HON.  WESLEY  G.  THOIvaPSON  (Minister  of  Lands  and 
Fcrests):  Mr.  Speaker,  at  the  present  time  townships  and 
districts  which  have  not  county  organizations  have  authority 
to  enter  into  an  agreement  with  the  Department  with  regard 
to  reforestation. 

Townships  where  we  have  county  organizations  are 
not  permitted  to  enter  into  these  agreements,  and  the  pur- 
pose of  this  bill  is  to  extend  that  authority  to  those 

I  move  second  reading  of  the  bill. 

MR.  OLIVER:  May  I  ask  the  hon.  minister  if  there 
have  been  many  inquiries  from  tov.'nships  with  regard  to  this 

MR.  TH0I.1P30N:   Quite  a  number. 

MR.  JOLLIFFE:   The  legislation  will  extend  to  the 


<»xl;t   ironji 







siir  «de 

7i:^    ^i 






-    343   -  2-26-45 


whole  province,  hereafter? 

I\!R.  THOMPSON:   Yes,  it  will. 

MR.  DENNISCK:   Mr.  Speaker,  I  would  like  to  sug- 
gest that  perhaps  the  hon.  Minister  might  v.'iden  the  scope 
of  this  bill,  not  necessarily  limiting  it  to  a  certain 
group  of  municipal  hO'.  ies,  but  allowing  any  municipality 
to  do  what  this  bill  allows.   I  have  in  mind  the  knowledge 
of  certain  cities  in  the  United  States,  end  1  believe  in 
Great  Britain  and  other  countries,  where  the  cities,  al- 
though you  may  think  they  have  no  interest  in  reforesta- 
tion, have  purchased  large  blocks  of  land  outside  their 
boundaries  and  have  entered  into  qi^ite  an  extensive  refor- 
estation plan  for  the  purpose  of  recreational  facilities 
for  the  citizens  of  those  cities,  and  to  provide  municipal 
forest  areas  for  the  cities.    I  would  make  that  sugges- 
tion to  the  hon,.  Minister,  if  he  would  accept  it. 

HON.  GEORGE  H.  DUI^MR  (Minister  of  Municipal 
Affairs):   That  would  have  to  be  looked  after  by  an  amend- 
ment to  the  Municipal  Act,  and  it  is  under  consideration  at 
the  present  time.   Many  municirialit ies  have  approached  me 
for  permission  to  enter  into  reforestation. 

MRS.  RAE  M.  LUCKOGK  (Bracondale ) :   I  would  like 
to  ask  the  hon.  Minister  (Mr.  Thompson)  a  question.    I 
was  listening  recently  to  a  broadcast  concerning  conaitions 
in  Sweden  and  I  heard  the  speaker  say  that  in  Sweden  v/hen  a 
tree  is  cut  down  by  anyone  they  have  to  replace  it.    I 
saaetimes  am  rather  worried  about  our  forests.   Even  at 
Christmas  time  I  am  worried  about  these  trees  being  wasted, 
and  that  is  one  angle  I  wish  to  mention. 

I  wonder  if  the  hon.  Minister  would  consider  some 
way  in  which  a  law  could  be  brought  in  whereby  people  who 
cut  dovm  trees  must  replace  thegi. 


-  .344  -  2-26-45 

MR,  SPEAKER;   Does  the  hon»  Minister  care  to 
answer  the  question? 

MR>  THOMPSON:   Mr.  Speaker,  the  question  raised 
by  the  hon.  member  for  Bracondale  (Mrs.  Luckock)  is  being 
given  some  consideration  at  the  present  time,  and  I  would 
rather  not  comment  on  that  until  the  report  of  the 
Agriculture  Corairiittee  has  been  tabled  in  the  House, 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  second  time. 

MR.  DRI£?7:   Order  No.  12. 

CLERK  OF  TIIR  H0U3S:   Twelfth  order:  second  reading 
of  Bill  Noc  33,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Crown  Timber  Act,»* 
Mro  Thompson.. 

HON.   WESLEY  G.  THOMPSON  (Minister  of  Lands  and 
Forests)?   Mr-.  Speaker,  in  moving  second  reading  of  Bill 
Noo  33,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Crown  Timber  Act,"  the  word 
"merchantable'*  is  left  out  of  section  1  to  simplify  matters, 
in  that  the  crown  would  not  have  to  prove  whether  the  lumber 
was  merchantable  or  not. 

In  section  2  the  purpose  of  this  change  is  to  make 
it  possible  for  the  Department  to  deal  immediately  with  all 
trespass  cases,  without  having  to  take  them  into  the  courts. 
This  authority  would  be  granted  to  the  Minister,  without 
referring  these  small  trespass  cases  to  the  courts. 

Iffio  THOMAS  P.  MURRAY  (Renfrew  South):   This  bill 
is  rather  hard  for  me  to  understand.   You  perhaps  know  that 
1  claim  the  right,  with  all  due  respect  to  hon.  members, 
including  the  hon»  member  for  Peterborough  (Mr,  Scott)  of 
having  more  fundamental  knowledge  concerning  lumber  than 
any  man  in  this  House.   That  is,  amongst  the  bushmen  and 
the  trees,    IVhen  I  am  here  amongst  men,  of  course,  it  is 
different.    I  s onetimes  got  balled  up. 

3i^-dS  -S 

-  -^^ .  - 

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lo    {d-Joi)E   .iM)   xl8uoio<Ji9J6<T  10 1  ledmefli 

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-  345  -  2-26-45 

Mr.,  Murray 

I  notice  here,  in  the  explanatory  notes,  it  says 
where  there  is  going  to  be  two  per  cent  of  the  timber  dues 
taken  off  the  timber  cut  on  road  allowances ,  given  to  the 
municipalities  to  improve  the  roads. 

Kow,  I  do  not  see  any  part  of  the  bill  where  that 
is  mentioned o   However^  I  would  like  to  know  how  they  are 
going  to  find  out  in  a  wild  'j^ountry; where  the  lines  are  not 
opened  up,  just  how  much  timber  Ja  going  to  be  cut  on  these 
roads.   iVe  are  lumbering  in  the  county  of  Ileyton,  an 
organized  territory,  and  there  are  many  proven  lines  and 
concession  lines  which  run  throuc^h  \;be  limits,  and  natural- 
ly we  cut  on  them.,   I  think  it  assi  to  be  the  rule  years 
ago  that  all  the  timber  dues  that  came  off  timber  cut  on 
the  road  allowances  was  turned  into  the  municipality.   I 
do  not  know  just  why  this  rule  was  abolished,  or  the  Act 

I  see  here,  tooc,  where  you  are  going  to  charge 
timber  thieves,  as  I  call  them,  a  fee  of  $15  a  tree.    Of 
course,  when  they  pay  this,  they  will  have  no  right  to  the 
timber.    If  that  clause  was  not  there,  I  would  say  that 
the  charge  should  be  more  than  $15  a  tree,  because  you  can 
go  out  and  cut  trees  which  are  worth  |50  a  tree,  even  in  the 
country  where  part  of  the  timber  has  been  cut  over  several 

I  would  like  an  explanation  as  to  just  what  this 
two  per  cent  means o    It  seems  to  me  very  small,  if  I  unde3>- 
stand  it  correctly  o   I  think  the  whole  hundred  per  cent  of 
the  timber  cut  on  road  allowances  should  be  turned  over 
to  the  municipalities o    A.s  you  know,  we  are  l\;imbering  In 
municipalities  where  we  require  roads, -and  we  often  ask  the 
government,  in  our  municinal  councils,  to  help  us  provide 
roads  to  the  different  mill  sites  and  camp  sites,  and  some- 



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-  346  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  Murray 

times  we  do  get  assistance,  and  this  part  of  the  bill  would 
be  all  right  then,  and  I  am  in  favour  of  it.   But  I  do  think 
the  whole  one  hundred  per  cent  should  be  given  to  the 
municipalities o   How  will  you  find  the  amount  of  trees 
that  are  cut?    If  you  go  into  an  old  bush,  you  can  trace 
the  old  blazes  made  there  eighty  or  one  hundred  years  ago, 
if  you  are  a  good  timber  cruiser;,  and  I  suppose  the  govern- 
ment scalers  will  have  to  determine  just  what  trees  are 
cut  on  these  road  allowances ^  and  naturally  that  will 
cost  quite  a  lot  of  money o 

The  money  does  not  amount  to  a  lot,  because  the 
hon.  Minister  can  afterwards  reduce  the  amount  under  $15  a 
tree,  if  he  wishes  to  do  so^  and  turn  the  lumber  over  to 
the  men  whom  we  call  "timber  thieves <>•    You  know,  there 
is  a  lot  of  that  being  done  yeto 

MR.  SCOTT:   Not  in  Peterborough  County. 

MR.  MURRAY:   It  used  to  be  done  in  a  great  many 
places,  and  large  amounts  of  timber  would  disappear. 

I  have  to  admit  that  great  progress  has  been 
made,  and  lately  we  have  been  bringing  these  fellows  to 

I  do  not  want  to  delay  the  House,  but  this  is 
my  pet  hobby,  and  I  thought  I  would  get  going  on  it.   As 
I  said  in  the  first  place,  some  of  the  university  language 
we  find  in  these  bills  I  do  not  understand  as  well  as  I 
would  the  shantymen's  language,  and,  therefore,  I  have  to 
go  down  to  the  Department  of  Lands  and  Fcrests  and  take  the 
matter  up  with  the  proper  officials,  who  are  very  kind  to 
me.   I  took  the  Surveyors'  Act  up,  and  I  found  it  was  going 
to  be  of  benefit  to  the  settlers  in  these  municipalities 
mentioned  in  the  bill,  and  I  suppose  now  I  will  have  to  go 

..u-'.   I  jbnfl    ,aeriJ    . 
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Q8  q:^.  ovt,  li   b©aoiJ'n©ffll 

-  347  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  Murray 

in  to-morrow  morning  and  see  some  of  my  friends  in  the  Lands 
and  Forests  Department,  and  we  will  discuss  this  thing.   I 
should  have  done  it  before  this,  but  the  bill  was  only- 
brought  down  lately. 

I  am  in  favour  of  all  the  timber  dues  for  timber 
out  on  the  road  allowances  being  turned  over  to  the  municipali- 
ties.  iVs  far  as  the  $15  for  a  tree  that  is  stolen,  it  is 
quite  all  right;  because  it  says  even  if  the  amount  is  paid, 
it  is  like  a  fine,  he  does  not  own  the  timber  that  comes  out 
of  that  treeo   I  understand  it  that  way,  at  least,  and  that 
is  all  right.   But  the  agent  of  the  government,  or  the 
department,  has  a  right  to  make  a  bargain  with  these  men  who 
started  out  with  the  wrong  intentions,  and  if  they  think 
they  have  made  mistakes  they  can  sell  him  the  lumber  at  what 
they  believe  is  a  fair  priceo   If  that  clause  were  not 
there  —  if  a  man  were  paying  $15  for  a  tree,  and  then 
owning  the  lumber,  it  would  not  be  enough,  because  I  can 
take  hon,  members  through  my  own  timber  limits  and  can 
show  them  pine  trees  worth  ;|75  for  the  lumber  that  comes 
from  them,  and  that  country  was  cut  over  nearly  fifty 
years  ago.    The  same  applies  to  birch  and  oak  and  maple, 
which  are  very  valuable  at  the  present  time,   and  ^15  would 
not  be  enougho   But, considering  he  does  not  own  the  lumber 
after  he  has  paid  the  fine,  of  course »  it  is  all  right. 

MR.  ROBIIBON  (Waterloo  South):   Mr.  Speaker,   I 
would  like  to  ask  the  hon.  Minister  (Mr,  Thompson)  if  the 
general  effect  of  this  bill  is  not  to  deprive  individuals 
of  some  of  their  rights  in  the  courts  which,  incidentally, 
is  contrary  to  point  No.  17 o 

MR.  STANLEY  J.  HUNT  (Renfrew  North):  Mr. Speaker, 
I  would  like  to  endorse  what  the  hon.  member  for  South 
Renfrew  said  with  respect  to  remitting  to  the  municipalities 

-•  V^C   - 

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,  ,i:fi2l«9qe.iM     :  (di-ioH  irailneH)   Ti; 

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jT0Bn9  o  I0OW  I 

-  S48  -  2-26-45 

Mr,  Hunt 

the  crown  timber  dues  collected  for  timber  cut  on  road 
allowance?,  and  I  think  the  Department  of  Lands  and  Forests 
might  give  some  consideration  to  the  suggestion  offered 
by  the  hon.  member  for  Renfrew  South  (Mr,  Murray). 

In  3outh  Renfrew  and  in  North  Renfrew  both  we 
have  municipalities  where  the  population  is  very  scattered. 
In  the  township  of  Fraser,  in  which  I  live^  less  than  fifty 
per  cent  of  the  road  allowances  has  been  cleared..    Now, 
somebody  approaches  the  crown  land  agent  and  gets  a  cutting 
permit  to  cut  the  timber  on  certain  road  allowances,  and 
they  take  only  the  timber,  and  all  the  brushing  and  clearing 
is  left  to  the  municipalities,  assisted  by  the  Department  of 
Highways,  and  it  throws  an  undue  burden  on  the  municipality, 
especially  where  the  settlers  are  so  scattered. 

I  think  the. local  municipality  should  be  entitled 
to  have  remitted  to  it  the  total  amount  of  crown  timber  dues 
received  for  timber  cut  on  these  road  allowances,  to  assist 
in  opening  up  any  of  these  roads  which  may  be  asked  for  by 
the  local  council,   I  would  suggest  that  the  Department 
of  Lands  and  Forests  give  due  consideration  to  the  sug- 
gestion of  the  hono  member  for  South  Renfrew, 

MR.  ROY  SMITH  (Parry  Sound):   Mr.  Speaker,  I  would 
like  to  endorse  what  the  two  hon,  members  who  have  just 
spoken  have  said.   Nowadays,  a  lot  of  our  timbering  is 
done  by  small,  portable  mills,  and  a  great  many  more  logs 
are  hauled  on  trucks  than  are  driven  down  a  lot  of  the 
smaller  rivers,  and  I  want  to  endorse  what  the  two  previous 
speakers  have  said.   The  counties  and  townships  are  called 
upon  to  build  roads  for  these  lumbering  concerns,  and  I  think 
it  is  only  fair  that  thp  one  hundred  per  cent  of  the  amount 
of  dues  paid  for  this  timber  should  be  remitted  to  the 

8*»©  a  BbOBJ  lo  JnofluTiaqea   ©il;t  aiaJtii*   I   fens   ,fieonflwoXX« 

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-  349  -  2-26-45 

Mto  Thompson 

MR,  THOMPSON:  I  oan  plainly  see  where  the  lumber- 
men and  the  Department  of  Lands  and  Forests  are  going  to  get 
along  fine  from  now  on,  since  we  have  the  lumbermen  advocating 
higher  prices  than  the  Department  has  been  chargingo   I  am 
sure  that  we  will  be  very  close  friends^ 

With  regard  to  this  trespass  matter,  this  only 
applies  in  the  smaller  eaaeso   All  the  large  cases  are  taken 
before  the  courts « 

Regarding  the  mo.'iey  received  frpra  the  so  road 
allowances,  I  want  to  be  frank  and  admit  that  these  are  the 
first  representations  which  have  been  brought  to  me  that 
the  dues  should  go  one  hundred  per  cont  to  the  municipali- 
ties from  trees  cut  on  road  allowances o   This  amendment 
was  brought  in  because  only  two  per  ce2it  of  the  dues  was 
going  to  the  municlpelitieso   Bute,  out  of  forty-one 
municipalities,  the  total  amount  for  one  year  was  $738, 
or  an  average  of  |18  to  each  municipality* 

The  accounting,  in  keeping  track  of  those  trees, 
where  they  were  cut  in  the  municipality,  was  costing  con- 
siderably more  than  that.   They  run  all  the  way  from  five 
dollars  —  there  is  one  of  them  up  into  a  hundred  and 
twenty-six  dollars,  and  that  was  the  reason  this  bill 
was  brought  in,  and  I  am  not  prepared  to  discuss  whether 
one  hundred  per  cent  of  the^  dues  made  on  the  road  allow- 
ances should  go  to  the  municipality,  because  this  is  the 
first  representation  made  to  me  along  these  lines, 

MR,  MITCHELL t  Might  I  ask  the  hon.  Minister  of 
Highways  a  question?  What  is  the  usual  grant  toward  the 
municipality  being  involved  iu  a  development  of  this  kind? 

HON,  G,  H.  DOUOETT  (Minister  of  Highways):   It 
would  all  depend  in  what  section  he  was.   The  minimum  would 
be  fifty  per  cent,  and  in  certain  cases  we  handle  as  high 

aoeqaoffT  oiU 

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bluoa  mjoitalm.  exlT  ^^an  ed 


"■  350  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  Doucett 

as  eighty  per  cento 

I  think  the  hon.  Minister  of  Lands  and  Forests 
(Mr.  Thompson)  is  to  be  congratulated  on  this  change.   If 
the  municipality  is  in  among  one  of  these  lumbering  sec- 
tions, they  might  get  eighty  per  cent  of  the  road,  so 
they  would  hardly  be  encitled  to  the  tiraber  and  the 
eighty  per  cent  grant,  as  wello 

Motion  agreed  to  bill  read  the  second  time. 

MR,  DREW:   Ordar  Noo  13 o 

CLERK  -F  THE  HOUSE i   Second  reading  of  Bill  No.  34, 
"An  Act  respeefcing  Foreac  Kngineersg*  Mr,  Thompson. 

HOJL  IVEoLEY  Go  TnOMPSON  {Minister  of  Lands  and 
Forests)  s   MTo  Speaker .>  In  moving  aecond  reading  of  this 
bill  I  would  like  to  explain  that  this  Act  provides  for  the 
establishment  of  a  boar«i  of  examiners  in  forestry  and  for 
the  registration  of  forest;  eiogineerso   "Fareatry*  is  de- 
fined and  while  the  bill  does  not  prohibit  the  practice 
of  forestry  by  any  class  of  persons,  it  restricts  the 
use  of  the  title  "forest  engineer"  to  persons  registered 
under  the  Acto   The  riglit  to  use  the  courts  for  the 
recovery  of  accounts  for  services  which  fall  within  the 
definition  of  "forestry"  is  limited  to  forest  engineers 
registered  under  the  Acto   I  move  second  reading. 

MR.  GEORGE  I.  IlARVEY  (Sault  Ste .  Marie):   Mr. 
Speaker,  It  might  be  apparent  we  have  forest  engineers 
working  in  private  industryj  or  so-called  forestry  engi- 
neers.  In  view  of  that  fact,  it  might  be  suggested 
that  this  bill  should  come  under  the  Professional 
Engineers'  Act  and  not  become  a  separate  bill  to  take 
care  of  the  forest  engineers^ 

MR.  Fo  TTo.  WARREN  (Hamilton-Wentworth) :  Might  I 


,fs  za 




*rtc    r 

•d;f   10'J    a© 



i-  ■ 


-  351  -  2-S6-45 

Mr.  Warren 

suggest  to  the  hon .  Minister  (Mr.  Thompson)  that  he  use 
the  initials  "FoE."*  to  indicate  the  forest  engineers,  and 
the  initials  "CE.**  for  civil  engineers,  and  that  would 
give  them  a  distinction. 

I.:R.  CYRIL  OVERALL  (Niagara  Falls):   I  would  like 
to  make  the  same  observation  on  this  particular  bill,    I 
happen  to  have  the  honour,  along  with  the  hon.  member  for 
London  (L^r.  VJebster),  of  being  a  professional  engineer^ 
and  I  think,  properly  speaking,  this  bill  should  be  under 
the  Professional  Engineers'  Act. 

I  notice  you  have  here  that  there  shall  be  a  board 
which  shall  be  composed  of  five  persons  wko  shall  be 
appointed  by  the  Lieutenant  Governor  in  Council  and  the 
Lieutenant  Governor  in  Council  may  appoint  one  of  the 
members  to  be  chairman.   Under  the  Professional  Engineers* 
Act  we  have  five  executive  officers  and  three  councillors, 
and  under  the  Forest  Engineers'  Act  we  have  chemical, 
mechanical,  civil,  electrical  and  mineral,  and  in  time 
to  come  we  shall  probably  have  other  branches  of  engineer- 
ing, as  the  subdivision  of  labour  —  we  will  have  ceramic  • 
and  structural  and  aeronautical  --  we  have  them  now  -- 
they  are  not  registered  under  this  Act  —  and  administrative 
and  oombustiono   We  had  a  combustion  engineer  with  us  on 
the  lignite  trip  north,  although  that  is  not  recognized 
under  the  Professional  Engineers'  Act.   I  think  in  time 
it  will  be.   Under  the  Forest  Engineers  it  will  be  re- 
stricted to  persona  registered  under  this  Act.   That  is 
exactly  the  wording  used  in  the  Professional  Engineers' 
Act.   I  would  like  to  recommend  that,  as  the  forest 
engineers  will  be  working  with  the  pulp  and  paper  mill 
companies,  as  wellas  for  the  Government,  they  should  come 

fienaW  '.tU 

tebau^'  06^"  bluQAB  Hid  eidJ  iesqe  ■'^fTer 

.3cA   ' 

5li30  ' 

sricr      '    ../^o  ;?ixloqqe  "^^  .laivoi)  jaaneJi/eiJ 

,Xaoi  iseai' 

c  ■ 

•    oiaQiei  -'iw  sv»   -  • 

evtiaiSBtnusiiim  iw 
no  81/  (i*iw  lesnlTifT 

3l  ,     •■■■•■■  -' 

iXi-:n   Tsqi  -    "     ■       '  •  ■  ■       ■"■> 

352  -  2-26-45 

Mr»  Overall 

in  the  Code  of  Ethics  such  as  laid  out  in  the  Engineers* 

Act.   I  will  read  one  section,  Just  to  illustrate: 

'•He  shall  not  accept  com- 
pensation, financial  or  otherwise, 
for  a  particular  service  from  more 
than  one  source,  except  with  the 
full  knowledge  and  written  consent 
of  all  interested  parties^" 

That  ifould  mean  this  Code  of  Ethics  would  apply 
to  forest  engineers,  and  there  would  be  no  need  to  write 
another  Code  of  Ethics  or  duplicate  it  for  this  special 

There  may  be  some  question  as  to  the  number  of 
forest  engineers..   Unlicensed  forest  angineers,  I  think 
you  will  agree,  are  very  small »    The  nuiaber  of  mechanical 
engineers  registered  in  the  province  of  Ontario  are  aroun^ 
eight  hundred  and  forty-^seven;  civil,  eight  hundred  and 
fifty-seven;  electrical,  eleven  hundred  and  ninety- three ; 
mining,  two  hundred  and  ninety- three,  with  a  maximum  of 
three  thousand,  six  hundred  and  thirty-six  registered  to- 
day in  the  forest  engineers,  which  would  approximate  around 
two  hundred  unlicensedo 

It  seems  to  me  the  logical  place  for  that  bill 
would  be  a  branch  of  the  Professional  Engineers'  Act, 
I  would  like  to  recommend  the  hon.  Minister  take  into 
consideration  the  re-drawing  of  this  bill,  and  put  it 
in  there  as  a  separate  Act,  so  the  Administration  would 
not  be  duplicated,  and  these  men  would  perform  the  same 
Code  of  Ethics  as  laid  out  for  all  engineers  in  the  pro- 

MR.  J.  B,  3ALSBERG  (St,  Andrew)?  You  will  par- 
don me  for  speaking,  Mro  Speaker,  on  the  question  of  for- 
estry, of  which  I  know  very  little,  I  would  like  to  ask 
a  question  of  the  hon.  Minister,  whether,  for  the  sake  of 

•  sec 

llH'ia^ij   *'iU 

f  Tcisur  r  V.  rf^ 




u.i«i   is  ©ILL 

U  D     01.' 


bnuoib  eieatxoi 



juIB     t 

-TRcjae   5   sfi 


-  353  -  2-26-46 

Mr,  Sals  berg 

clarity,  it  is  understood  that  the  registered  engineer, 
whether  it  is  chemistry  or  any  other  science,  must  neces- 
sarily be  a  graduate  of  a  recognized  university  having  a 
department  studying  that  specific  subject,  '  That  is,  does 
the  bill  also  call  for  or  limit  the  granting  of  the  degree 
to  graduates  only  of  -che  physiology  department,  if  such 
department  exists  in  the  university? 

I  listened  to  the  contributions  made  by  the  other 
hon.  members,  and  I  did  not  see  how  the  comparison  could 
be  made» 

When  engineers  speak  of  their  Act  covering  engineers, 
and  this  bill  should  be  under  the  other  Act,  I  know  that  else- 
where there  are  specific  requirements  which  students  must 
meet,  under  which  they  are  entitled  to  use  the  degree. 
This  means  that  the  board  will  have  authority  to  grant 
this  title  to  anyone  they  consider  fit  and  possessing  of 
sufficient  knowledge  of  forestry  problems.   Is  that  right? 

MR.  1E0MPS0N:   Yes, 

MR.  SALSBERGj   If  that  is  correct,  I  can  under- 
stand why  it  should  be  a  separate  Act,  rather  than  an 
appendix  to  the  Professional  Engineers'  Act. 

Then  I  am  not  clear  about  this,  how  this  Board 
will  determine  the  qualifications  of  a  person  if  he  will 
not  be  a  graduate  of  an  existing  school  of  forestry,  if 
he  will  not  have  taken  a  course  in  Forestry,  how  will  the 
Board  determine  whether  one  will  be  an  expert  or  not? 
How  do  we  know  that  there  will  be  no  favouritism?   How 
do  we  know  what  qualifications  will  be  required  to  receive 
this  degree  from  the  board,  except  such  as  the  board  it- 
self may  set  up? 

I  think  we  have  in  the  University  of  Toronto  a 
department  dealing  with  forestry.   If  that  is  the  case. 

-eSoan  Jei/flt  ,don»loe.  •x»4<^p..xafl  .^o  .Yi*«-tiBerio  al  ;fl  iarf*«rfw 

e  aniVBJl  Y^lateviau   ijestngooa-r  a  lo  eiaubBT^  s  ed  xXiiaa 

eeot   ,ai   i'adT     '  ,2-09iatte   otlic-t         "   d^  ^j.^b>jj'-;  .^laqeb 

aeiso^   9rfJ  lo  8nrt*flBTa«-sriJ  eo  oaifi  Xlid;  erf^ 

i-lotiE    il    ,  J-noiiii  laqafc  YscicleYric  sfl;  ^   S8;tBJj£.    . 

ticJfeiQViiiii   eflj  ni   sjexxe  itaefflJiBqab 
•lariio  eAi   ^d  abao  enoiJudiUfloo  .ad*  o,t  6dna7etl   I 

bluoo  noeliBqinoo   eff:^  wor'   ese  ..?on  bib   T   fenB   .aTadmem   .nori 

.aDBOi   i>d 
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lo  sflieee«eoq  bna  ttt  ^abieaoo  >iedJ  ono>tnB  o^  eX;fJt^  nidi 

-'■■,'.    i, 

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erf  J   X'Xi-*  wGri  ,tX*tiB9io'i  ai  fiaiuoo  ,b  na:lB*  svsri   ion  XXiw  ed 

jieoxe  n r'   ad   ilivr  ejao  lari^tsrfw  eniffl'ie;f8b  biBoS 

woH       ^jaauxtwovei  ,<?ii  :ad   iiiw  eiedt   i^.iii  woai   sv?  o5  woH 

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-  354  -  2-26-45 

Mr.  Sals berg 

why  should  we  not  merely  grant  this  degree  to  persons 
who  graduate  from  this  faculty  —  either  limit  it  to  that 
or  grant  it  to  anyone  who  has  worked  in  the  forestry  indus- 
try for  a  certain  period  of  time. 

I  would  like  some  clarification  if  the  hon. 
Minister  will  be  good  enough  to  make  it.   For  instance, 
some  hon.  member  who  is  dealing  in  lumber  may  come  and 
secure  this  forestiy  engineering  degree,  to  which  they  may 
be  no  more  entitled,  and  in  many  instances  far  less  entitled, 
than  a  practical  lumberman  in  our  forests.   We  can  quite 
visualize  a  number  of  lumber  dealers  getting  it.  But  I 
cannot  see  any  lumber  jack  getting  it;  and  it  seems  to  me 
that  lumberjacks  would  be  better  entitled  to  it,  unless 
the  degree  required  is  from  a  reoognissed  school. 

MR.  THOMPSON:  Mr.  Speaker,  it  is  difficult  for  • 
me  to  understand  some  of  these  arguments.   First  of  all, 
I  am  not  a  university  graduate,  and  for  that  reason  I  am 
not  prepared  to  say  whether  this  Act  should  cane  under 
the  Professional  Engineers •  Act  or  not.   But  I  do  say 
that  professional  engineers  do  not  deal  with  public 

It  has  been  suggested  here  to  limit  this  Act  to 
graduates  of  universities.   I  think  that  is  wrong  and  I 
am  surprised  at  any  member  of  this  House  advocating  such 
a  thing. 

MR.  SALSBBRG:  Mr.  Speaker,  I  rise  to  a  point 
of  privilege  on  the  limitation  of  this  degree.   I  am 
the  one  who  asked  the  question.   I  do  not  want  to  say 
who  shall  have  a  degree  but  I  want  to  have  it  clarified. 
In  fact,  I  thought  I  made  it  clear  that  I  would  favour 
lumberjacks;  but  I  would  like  to  know  who  would  get  it. 

-Si  .t^eaiol  edt  ni   baMtow  eari  orfir  er  ^J  ;fi:  ir-- 

,aoii'Z-di  ';  isXo    amo8  ©Mil  bluow  I 

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od^  ioA  zlAi  ita.lL  ot  ared  &at&o3§i;a  asad  aeil  ^Z 

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.;rJ:  *9a  bXifow  ©If*  wottA  &S  mill  blaow  I  *i;tf  jaJloaft-itadmwi 

355  -  2-26-45 


HON,  LESLIE  S»  BLA.CKft'3LL  (Attorney  General):   Mr. 
Speaker,  I  would  like  the  opportunity  of  making  a  few  remarks 
on  this  billo   May  I  first  remind  this  House  that  the  prac- 
tice is  not  new»   It  is  already  found  in  the  Optometry  Act. 
I  do  not  know  whether,  being  a  university  graduate,  I  can 
pronounce  it,  but  Chiropody  Act  also  has  it o   Those  Acts 
all  fall  within  the  arsa  of  aMeavour  where  it  i»  in  the 
public  Interest  that  the  people  who  are  registered  there- 
under should  be  qualified  in  some  respect  and  registered 
as  such.   Thatj  might  I  say.,  in  principle;,  is  the  entire 
Justification  for  such  an  Act,  if  it  is,,  in  the  serious 
consideration  of  this  Lagisla':;ure,  in  the  public  interest 
that  such  people  as  may  be  dOHcribad  as  forest  engineers 
should  be  registered:,   Now^  if  it  is  in  the  public 
interest,  we  then  oame  to  this  problem.   There  are  al- 
ready operating  in  the  forests  of  the  province  of  Ontario 
many  people  well  qualified  to  be  registered  under  any 
proper  regulations  which  would  be  passed  under  such  an 
Act,   A  legislature  should  be  very  scrupulous  in  passing 
legislation  of  this  description  where  it  is  establishing 
a  qualification  basis,  a  registration  basis,  that  it  has 
due  regard  for  what  may  bs  described  as  the  proper  vested 
interests  of  decent  people  who  have  acquired  their  qualifi- 
cations in  the  practical  and  hard  way  and  can  functiono 

Like  the  other  Acts  that  I  have  nientioned,  that 
exhibit  this  theory,  as  being  somewhere  between  the 
straight  professions  and  those  things  which  are  not 
professional,  being  in  between,  from  the  point  of  view 
of  the  university 'degree,  the  protection  that  the  public 
interest  gets  is  the  traditional  way  of  setting  up  a 
board,  where  the  responsibility  for  the  selection  of  that 


'    BjoA  eeor.' 

J  sais^f  I 

■■)■    I'   Hj^F>.; 

ia.i&t>  6> 


VO  iq      !:>»  1 

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i   eonuofio'iq 
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Jb©;t&©v  isqot  joediioaftij    ©a   ^anx  *8riw  to^   l)aBS©T    sub 

,-    ,    ^         h       ^  - 


•tefia    jD©riOi:?a©ai  svb;  rf*  Oo  9311 J 

©d;t   nser  orfrt    pM:t   -ifidirfxe 

^■on   »-ia  aoiuw   ^^liiiJ    a«u.ij   uaxj  auoieeaioaq  .JiiaieiJe 
wei: .  oq  ©dij  moil    ,ii©©wi-e  xeesloiq 

T   ©Hit    Jsrl^  noi/.'jo.toiq  '3rlJ    .  asrr:?,©  Uj 

-  355  -  2-26-45 


board  is  delegated  by  the  le/?;lslature  to  the  gcvermiient , 
which  is  responsible  again  to  the  legislature  for  the  way 
it  functionso    Then  the  actions  of  the  board  which  has  to 
pass  upon  the  people  who  are  to  receive  the  degree  are 
again  subject  to  review  by  the  legislature  of  the  pro- 

I  would  also  like  to  deal  with  the  other  ques- 
tion, and  I  am  quite  sure  this  was  the  view  of  the  hono 
Ivlinister,  unless  it  is  the  intention  to  deprive  throughout 
this  province  many  practical  people  who  are  well  qualified 
for  their  right  to  practise o  in  some  profession;  the  time 
is  not  yet  ripe  in  this  province  when  the  Act  should  be 
brought  together  with  the  general  Engineering  Acto   The 
time  may  come  when  all  forest  engineers  who  are  qualified 
in  the  future  may  be  graduates  of  the  3chool  of  Forestry 
of  the  University  of  Toronto;  but,  Mr.  Speaker,  I  would 
remind  the  hon,  members  that  that  time  is  not  yet,  unless 
a  great  injustice  is  to  be  done  a  great  number  of  well 
qualified  people. 

l-Ji.   ROBINSON  (Port  Arthur):  Mr,  Speaker,  it 
seems  to  me  that  this  Act  might  well  come  under  the 
Engineers'  Act,  as  has  been  stated  over  hereo   I  would 
agree  that  they  would  possibly  not  be  electrical  engineers 
or  other  engineers  who  sit  for  examinations o   But  I  agree 
that  the  Forestry  Department  possibly  should  set  up  the 

It  seems  to  me  that  it  is  unnecessary  to  set  up 
a  whole  new  set  of  machinery  for  the  Forestry  Engineers, 
when  we  already  have  an  engineering  organization  in  this 

I/!R.  OVERALL:   Mr.  Speaker,  I  would  like  to  say 


„  It  Oil 


^  »*"  rj  ■*^  rf 

.^ortuTt  it 





Toiia  t- 






•It   0©aafi 


/r'en   sXorfw  8 
3  evsri  x&eeiXfi^  ew  n»div 

.eor  ■'  •   "■- 

w   I    « 

-  357  -  2-26-45 

ItTo  Overall 

that  I  never  expect  that  at  any  tlma  the  engineers  in 
this  country  will  be  all  graduates  of  the  School  of 
Forestryo   But  may  I  say  that  the  members  should  be 
graduates  of  the  School  of  Forestry  or  the  equivalent; 
that  gives  a  man  a  chance  to  qualify  under  a  board  of 
examiners >  and  that  is  how  it  ought  to  be.   I  would 
like  to  say  to  the  hon.  Attorney  General  that  if  we 
took  out  all  the  men  who  are  not  graduates  of  the  uni- 
versity, we  would  not  have  many  engineers  in  this  pro- 

This  Act  ought  to  include  all  men  who  are 
qualified  in  the  province;  and,  as  I  read  it,  that  is 
what  this  Act  does  not  desire .   A  man  who  is  qualified 
from  experience  and  those  who  have  qualified  by  graduation 
and  have  two  years  experience  in  engineering  should  be  mem- 
bers.  It  is  identically  the  same,  and  I  hope  you  will 
forgive  me  for  saying  so;  but  you  will  find  that  the  forestry 
engineers  will  be  an  absolute  duplication  of  the  professional 
engineering  act  in  respect  of  machinery;  and  there  is  no  code 
of  ethics  set  up,  but  I  suppose  there  will  be  and  will  pro- 
bably be  a  reprint  of  the  professional  engineers;  and  I  cer- 
tainly urge  on  the  hon<,  Minister  to  incorporate  it  in  this 
Act,  where  it  belongs,  and  put  it  under  the  Professional 
Engineers'  Ac to 

HON.  WILLIAM  G,  WEBSTER  (Minister  without  Port- 
folio): May  I  make  an  observation  on  this  engineering 
business?    I  happen  to  have  spent  a  good  deal  of  my  life 
in  engineering  and  I  would  suggest  it  would  be  Just  about 
as  sensible  to  take  the  chiropodist  and  call  him  a  foot  and 
bone  engineer  and  take  chiropractors  and  call  them  bone 
engineers.   Forestry  has  nothing  to  do  with  engineering. 

8* -as -a 

XXB19V0     oOM 

a  J:  eiaeaisae  Qd$  matt  x^n  ^^  ^aif^  ^oeqxe  ler^i  I  ;tad^ 

esfsyfceT?^  '   rtJffuoo  Bid;} 

m  tt 

-oiq  o 

AfA  '  ri»  aem  I  la  ^r, 

ac^. .  ^ .J.-., ij  »^    ^wi   fc?* '' 
-n»fs  ed  biuods  ^aiitmai^tf 

iXtw  uov  Tfl  ,flM0e   ar 

VX^aoiol  «ri*   w:ii.v    bait   litw  uox  ti< 
iBaoieed'loTq  wii  1 
Bboo  on  ai  ©TsHt   ftns 

-rrao  i 

la:  - 

elJtl   Y^f  lo  I  Be!  ^fleqa  eviui 

aaocS  ifleri?   I.:bs!  ivi^a   ?. 

odv  nanr   erf;?    LIV:    iim  3loa3" 

f  ^^fT 

'i  bellilBUp 

»tiitia»bt  Bl   II        .81  ad 

«  enaealaae 

-    ,.    V  r^  -S     V        -^  y^ 

©d   Ylaad 
a^ii;  Y-^lB* 

- '^'j    ji   e-idilir  «.^oA 

.^oA  •eiean.:. 

■;■    MATJJTW    .WOP. 

0&  aegqBii  I         Taeenlaucf 

,    :  .  .       0  J    exaxEa&a   ee 

leanisfle  snod 

-  358  -  2-26-45 

MPo  Webster 

Engineering,  after  all,  is  about  the  most  abused  term  in 
the  worldo   You  could  add  engineer  to  men  who  run  peanut 
stands  if  you  wanted  to,  but  engineering  is  something  which 
originally »  in  my  Judgment,  included  civil  engineers, 
mechanical,  electrical,  mining  engineering  —  all  calling 
for  a  thorough  knowledge  of  higher  mathematics;  ability 
to  design,  and  when  you  start  adding  all  theae  other 
appendages  to'  engineers  you  make  engineering  a  joke.. 

MR,  SALSBBRSs  My   question  to  the  Minister,  Mr« 
Speaker,-  is  that  if  this  bill  is  tv>  app3.y  to  practical 
forestry  men,  ,  whether  the  bill  has  been  discussed  with 
organizations  of  practical  forestry  a^n,   I  hare  in  mind 
not  only  an  association  but  also  a  union  of  forestry  men, 
such  as  lumber  workers'  unions  of  this  province? 

BSR.  SPBAKBR:  That  is  your  question? 

UR.  3ALSBEBG:  Yesg  and  whether  he  would  agree 
to  submitting  this  bill  to  associations,  unions  and  other 
bodies  of  forestry  men  for  approval  before  its  final  adop- 
tion.  That  is  the  questiono 

MR.  THOMPSON:  Mr.  Speaker,  my  answer  to  the 
latter  question  is  noo   To  the  other  one,  the  bill  does 
not  include  graduates  of  universities,   I  would  just  like 
to  know  what  territory  the  hon.  member  is  taking  in  when 
he  asks  if  it  has  been  discussed  with  certain  -- 

MR.  SALSBSRG:   In  reply  to  the  hon.  Minister  I 
want  to  say  to  that  that  I  am  not  a  university  engineer, 
and  I  do  not  favour  granting  an  engineering  licence  to  every 
forestry  employee  just  as  we  do  now  to  stationary  engineers, 
but  I  want  to  be  clear  —  will  such  titles  be  given  to  every 
practical  forestry  worker  or  not  —  and  I  am  not  objecting 
nor  am  I  approving  the  bill  nor  am  I  oomplaining. 

^fljLlI^o  IIa  *■->  9aiifi»at:sfiB 

i)n,i:flt  fli  ett. 




ef cosas 

•orrso  M)J0»  sri  TJ»r 







■  •'■     n !, 

T(T9Ve    03 

a n i  Joe. : 


■-■•   X'^*^ 

-  359  -  2-2&-45 

Uro  Salsberg 

MR.  SPEAKER:  You  are  making  an  address  now. 

MR.  SALSBBRG:   In  reply  to  the  hon.  Minister  I 
merely  want  to  say  as  a  member  of  this  Legislature  that 
all  I  desire  is  clarity  as  to  the  limits  and  purposes  of 
the  bill,  which  I  am  sorry  to  say  I  have  not  as  yet  ob- 

MRo  MURRAY:   I  have  been  in  the  lumber  business 
a  long  time  but  I  have  never  seen  a  forestry  engineer,  I 
do  not  think,  in  my  part  of  the  country.   I  was  Just 
wondering  what  the  duties  of  a  forestry  engineer  is.   I 
have  heard  of  it  and  I  have  had  some  correspondence  with 
them,  but  we  have  government  scalers  and  government  cruisers 
and  we  have  men  in  different  categories  coneerning  the 
lumber  business, but  a  forestry  engineer  is  a  man  I  know 
very  little  about, and  the  very  idea  of  giving  everybody 
that  is  connected  with  the  lumber  business  .--  whether 
log  maker  or  roller  —  the  title  "forestry  engineer,"*  I 
am  surprised  that  any  hon,  member  would  think  of  it. 

I  would  like  to  put  a  question  on  that  particular 
point:  What  are  the  duties  of  a  forestry  engineer?    One 
of  the  most  valuable  men  that  we  have  in  the  lumber  busi- 
ness --  I  do  not  know  whether  women  are  going  to  take  up 
this  occupation  or  not  —  is  timber  cruiser.   He  is  the 
man  who  goes  into  the  bush  and  tells  us  what  is  in  it. 
Then  another  valuable  man  is  the  man  who,  after  you  are 
through  cutting,  can  tell  you  what  is  left  and  what  should 
be  taken  outo    That  is  one  of  the  great  sins  of  the 
lumbermen  to-day.   The  inspector  --  he  is  a  qualified 
government  culler  --  should  know  something  about  trees, 
and  if  he  is  able  to  go  through  the  bush  and  compel 
lumbermen  to  cut  proper  logs  and  eliminate  waste,  then 
he  is  a  very  valuable  man,  and  the  government  have  what 

-  360  -  2-26-45 

MTo.  Murray 

is  called  a  government  cruiser  go  over  timber  limits  and 
develop  different  kinds  of  timber  on  it  and  say  what  it  is 
worth  on  the  stumpo   We  find  in  a  great  many  cases  we  have 
not  got  them  any  morCo   I  think  I  would  have  a  practical 
man  who  has  learned  this  in  the  bush  —  where  you  get  real 
fundamental  men  --  rather  than  get  men  educated  in  the 
University  of  Toronto.,, 

I  perhaps  will  speak  on  this  when  I  am  speaking 
on  the  Speech  from  the  Throne,  if  I  feel  like  it.  Anyway, 
this  is  a  very  important  matter  because  I  know  it  and  I 
am  in  the  business  long  enough  and  I  know  all  the  mistakes 
made  and  the  inefficiency  and  how  hard  it  is  to  get  lumber 
men.   I  am  not  one  of  those  fellows  who  just  get  up  and 
talk  incessantly  for  the  lumberman »   I  am  not  here  to 
represent  the  lumbermen  at  alio   I  am  here  to  represent 
the  people  of  Ontario  and  the  owners  of  the  timber  of 
Ontario,  including  all  residents  and  inhabitants  of  the 

MR.  SPEAKER:   A  lot  of  these  details  were  discus- 
sed in  the  Committee  of  the  Whole,  May  I  say  — 

MR.  E,  B,  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition): 
I  would  like  to  say  a  word  about  the  principle  of  the  bill, 
and  there  may  be  others,  I  don't  know-. 

I  do  not  pretend  to  be  an  authority  on  the  issue 
which  has  been  discussed  this  afternoon  with  respect  to  the 
duplication  there  may  be  between  machinery  set  up  under 
this  Act  and  the  Professional  Engineers*  Act.   I  do  want 
to  suggest,  however,  that  it  is  worthy  of  consideration  by 
the  Government  and  by  the  Minister*   Certainly  we  have 
not  heard  to-day  any  convincing  explanation  of  the  neces- 
sity for  a  different  billo 

-  561  -  2-26-45 


The  Minister  without  Portfolio  (Mr.  Webster)  who 
represente  London  in  this  House,  and  who  has  recently 
ascended  to  engineer  the  distribution  of  liquor,  has  said 
that  these  people,  under  this  Act,  have  nothing  to  do  with 
engineeringc   Well,  if  that  is  so  it  is  very  strange  that 
they  are  described  in  the  Act  as  "For est  Engineers*,  and 
the  hon„  Minister  of  Lands  and  Forests  (Mr.  Thompson)  I 
think  should  re-examine  the  Act  he  defendSo 

I  was  very  pleased  to  hear  an  assurance  from 
both  the  Minister  of  Lands  and  Forests  and  the  Attorney 
General  (Mr,BiactL;/3ll )  that  there  is  no  thoughts  for  a 
long  time  to  comss  of  limiting  this  qualification  of  i«aceu 
graduates  of  the  Forestry  School »   I  have  the  greatest 
respect  for  the  work  being  done  by  that  school.   I  think 
it  is  of  great  importance  to  the  future  of  forestry  in 
this  province  and  I  may  say  to  the  hono  member  from  Renfrew 
South  (Mrc  Murray)  that  the  students  of  the  forestry  schools 
spend  a  great  part  of  their  time  in  very  practical  work, 
not  in  theoretical  work.   But  the  point  I  wqnt  to  make  is  that 
I  do  not  believe  it  is  a  good  principle  —  and  certainly  it 
is  not  being  done  in  this  Act  —  to  limit  a  certain  field 
to  professional  qualifications  or  graduates  of  one  forestry 
school.    We  would  probably  gain  a  great  deal  of  value 
from  time  to  time  by  accepting  people  who  are  graduates 
of  other  schools  or  people  who  are  practical  men  and  who 
have  by  study  or  experience  qualified  professionally. 

We  can  probably  learn  a  great  deal  of  value  from 
forestry  engineers  who  have  spent  some  time  or  who  have 
qualified  in  some  other  country  where  it  may  well  be  for- 
estry practice  is  more  advanced  than  our  own.   So  that  I 
am  pleased  to  see  that  the  bill  itself  does  not  place  any 

3*-as-s  -  Ldtr- 

jiiKr  baB  ,©bijya  e;.AiJ   ill  noJbrroJ  •♦noeo'icTo'i 

btBB  BBti  tiouptl  lo  ao tiudiiiztb  edi  toi  li  baibaaoa* 

dtiv  Qb  of  ^ntdton  btbA   ..tsA   r.tdi  i9bau   ,oIcTO»rr  ©e«ri.r   tBdt 

janj  •aflBiJa  "  '      T'^  leealsne 

baB  ,*8ie©r  laoiD'?*'  ee  ioX  9dt  ai  bt  96  oie  tc*^^ 

I   (nocqmodT   .i.M)    s^serro^  bas  ebaflJ  1:0  i9;Jp.ialM  -:r:.*^ 

oa£iaei©o  an  jo-i  saj   aaifflfixp 
jBOtcl  aQnaii^eaa  ae  laaii  oi  l>aeaalq  '^irai 
yaaioJ^A  «£!;)■    Sfie    8:t3»Tcf    f^na  sftrrr'.J  To  ti»:}-  '    f'^^od 

a  "xol   s  i'dguoiliJ  ;»««  '' 

V  'BofitLiMjp  eii  il  -to    ,e 

irtiii,}   I       .looitlsc  x**   »flo^  aaied  alio*  g.  i©i 

wailflsfl  matt  aadmer'     "^'^  ^    x.i£^  .    ..- 

•loodoa  Ti^eanol   arfj   10  etfne^i/Sa   ©liJ  *ari3"   (ybtioM  ^iMi   il^woci 
,:tiow  laoi^oarq  ^lev  nl   ©mt;?  7Jf©xl;r  Ic   Jiaq  tasig  a  baaqe 

;tJ:  xlatBitBt  bSB   —  elqloaiiq   feoos  a  el   :fi   ©vai. 

61  an  nie^iao   a  crtmil  o*   ~  tok  Btdi  at  ?<<  *oct  et 

awlfiv       .    iB©&  Jae  adoiq  bli/o».  .ioorioa 

88*Bufra*T3a  018  orfw  alrro  ^90e  '"i  9Zi 

odv   ba&  u&sa  iBOiioBiq  &it  o^s   axqcaq    -j   al 
•  Yi^IanoieBaloiq  l)eiliXBi;p  leqxe 

BKJil  ©uIbv   ■^'    ieefi   j'Sc^t's  b  aissl  TlcJad' 

avail  oaw  ■  e   jaotje  syaa  cuh  .<iia; 

-aol   6<i  Haw  yaffl  ;tl  oiedm  x^iauoo  ledio  erne  aup 

I   :^»d^  o'  reria-   SsstrnvSe   artortr  ^1   ©sii'os'rtj  Ti*«« 

-  368  -  2-26-45 


severe  limitation  on  queliflcations.   However,  it  does 
authorize  the  board  to  establish  the  necessary  qupllfiea- 
tionso   As  some  one  has  suggested,  I  do  not  believe 
it  will  have  the  effect  of  quallfyipg  engineers  in  the 
same  sense  as  stationary  engineers  are  qualifledo    Uy 
understanding  of  this  bill  is  that  it  opens  the  door  to 
a  general  improvement  and  raises  the  standards  of  forestry 
practice  in  this  province  by  giving  recognition  to  a  cer- 
tain group  of  technically  qualified  people.   And  I  would 
like  to  assure  the  hon.  member  for  St«  Andrew  (MroSalisberg) 
that  forestry  ca-ii  be  a  highly  technical  occupation,  and  one 
that  calls  for  a  very  high  standard  of  training  experience* 

My  main  purpose  in  speaking  to  the  bill  is  to 
suggest  that  unless  there  is  some  much  more  convincing 
reason  than  we  have  heard  regarding  the  Professional 
Engineers*  Act,  the  Government  ought  to  take  into  con- 
sideration the  advisability  of  bringing  them  together, 
and  if  they  are  willing  to  do  that,  I  am  sure  the  hon* 
member  for  Riagiara  Falls  (Mr<>  Overall)  would  be  quite 
prepared  to  let  the  hon.  Minister  take  the  credit « 

MR.  LESLIE  HANCOCK  (Wellington  South):  Mr* 
Speaker,  certainly  I  feel  the  Ministry  is  to  be  con- 
gratulated in  bringing  forward  a  hill  of  this  nature. 
From  my  experience  of  what  has  been  going  on  in  Ontario, 
as  compared  to  the  older  countries,  I  personally  do  not 
see  any  better  way  to  improve  the  status  of  our  forestry 
than  the  introduction  of  this  billo   Of  course,  it  is 
a  debatable  question,  whether  you  make  all  your  registered 
engineers  graduates  of  a  forestry  college  or  not.   This 
Act,  however,  does  not  give  this  House  any  place  in  saying 
who  shall  be  registered  engineers.   I  note  it  says 

3^->dS-s  -  sac  - 

zeob  it   jiavoiroH       ^aaoltBofill  j  aotiBiiisai  eteree 

eveiletf  ion  ob  I    (be^899Si/e  esxi  eno  eunoe  eA 

jo;^  loot  Qtii  Ecaqo  it  i&di  Bt  Hid  etdi,  to  n^baa 

Ti^BQTol  "So  eJbia6flB*e   eil:t  cseifii   bne  ^flearavo*- 
•-leo  a  oJ  iiQlJiflsooea  aaivi^-    M   ^oaiTo-:. 

fcli/ow  I   iMA       .elqoeq  bellilBup  YiXaoi  qx;ots  aia^r 

{gief^a'-faP.^TM'    wsTbrtA    .?f      •^ol  '^scfaioni   .coil  jii/EEfi   oJ-   6:^11 

8flo  j^ae  ,aoiJi-  oiaaosj  V'  Yi3^©aoi  iacij 

«eoa8tiac[X«  ^iaJtvit  lo  bistaa^a  ilsiif  x^ev  e  lao  ^ 

o:f   '        ^.j   eriw   o;f  ani^aeqe  at  •eoqinq  attm  ^ 
^aloatvaoo  9ioa  doum.  waoe  at  QiBdi  aec  '  ^ed^^x/s 

XflfloiaBetoi<I  ©ffcT  sislSnasai  fn»9Jt  9WBd  aw  nsx'l*  aoesei 
•noo  otci  a3iflO  ^--  vut.--  ineemiefyoQ  edi  ,  d-oA  ■ --^"oalgna 
('xe£fJ'99o^  aiedi  ^at^tzd  \o  xilitd»9t^bB 

:di  etaz  as  I   ^tBdi  ob  ot  ^tiliw  eta  xbi  ba» 

otlup  erf  blaov  {llBtBwO   «iM)   e.ilB'i  n^ilW  -'•^'^  -^-rf^^, 

.J\t:t>e^9  Bdi  eia^  le^elnlM  .noil  ad^  isL  oi  beiac 
.111     :(iid-jJoe  ao^sailleW)  XXOMAH  :"  .Hlf 

-flco  ed  ct  el  Y^^siniM  ari*  Xeel   I   ••'-''a*ieo    tt^si/^-' 
.aTi/*an  a  bianol  gni  aaa 

,ojtis;tflO  n:  no  aaros  aearf  ead  i^w  lo  eoaaiiecixa  x^n  awil 
J        -      Y-fXanoaaaq  I    ^aai-iJfluoo  lebXo      ""   -*    '—     ---^.ee 
Yxtsaiol  TWO  lio  Bii^a^e   axld"  evoiqml:  oj^  yaw  lajJed  y-^  ®»8 
ti    ,9eiaoo  "?0       ^XlJtrf  sirf:f  lo  aottoubotiat  edi  aedt 
xjeTSJBxgai  itio^i  xxb  ojsiici  ijsj'i  laxijadw  ^aoi^aoirp  elcfaiarfei.'  a 
aiilT       .tofl  10   ©gaXXoo  x^^aaicol  a  lo  aad^aufiaTS  eiasflisce 
^aix,BB  at  soaXq  XdB  sauoH   airiJ  ©via   ?on  eaofi   .-ravswcd   ,*oA 
txas   At   Btoa  i;        ftsiasaxsixo   00132 s.s.^91   ot;   xx-j.,:;  oriw 

-  363  -  2-26-45 

MTo  Hancock 

••regulations'  shall  mean  regulations  made  under  this  Act,* 
and  then  we  find  there  are  no  regulations  to  be  actually 
made  under  this  Act  o    They  are  all  to  be  made  by  a 
board  of  examiners,  subject  to  the  approval  of  the 
Lieutenant  Governor  in  Council o 

Now,  that  is  the  faulty  I  think,  which  appears  in 
all  these  Acts,  that  we  pass  a  great  many  points,  and  the 
interpretation  of  those  points  is  entirely  in  the  hands  of 
boards,   I  know  that  a  board  is  a  good  thing  in  matters 
scientific,  and  we  must  have  boards c»  because  even  the 
ninety  hon.  members  of  this  House  could  not  decide  what 
form  these  qualifications  and  standards  should  take<, 
However,  I  am  certainly  concerned  as  to  how  these  boards 
are  appointed o   Personally j  I  think  that  in  cases  where 
science  is  primarily  and  entirely  concerned,  we  do  wrong 
to  leave  the  appointment  of  a  board  such  as  the  forestry 
board  entirely  in  the  hands,  say,  of  a  government »   I 
think  we  should  state  in  the  Act  —  I  think  we  should  tie 
it  up  with  those  authorities  in  the  country  who  have  al- 
ready trained  men  for  forestry  work,  and  I  think  this  Act 
should  be  tied  up  with  such  schools  of  forestry  as  we  do 

I  believe  there  should  be  two  types  of  registered 
engineers,  the  graduate  engineer,  and  the  man  with  long, 
practical  experience  in  forestryg  and  I  would  certainly  like 
to  leave  this  thought  with  the  Legislature  and  with  those 
who  may  finally  have  the  appointment  of  the  boards,  that  so 
long  as  we  follow  the  practices  which  have  obtained  Ip.   Sweden 
and  those  countries  which  have  already  made  a  name  for  them- 
selves as  expert  forestry  countries,  we  cannot  go  wrong. 
And  although  I  should  like  to  see  just  how  the  regulations 

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-  364  ~  2-.26-45o 

Llr.  Hancock, 

tie  in,  I  would  like  to  see  theia  written  into  this  Act, 
but  I  rather  deplore  the  fact  that  boards  are  appointed 
entirely  at  the  discretion  of  the  Government. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  hill  read  the  s:econd  time, 

IjIR.  DREW:   Order  NOo  15 o 

CLERK  OF  TIIE  HOUSE:   Fifteenth  order,  second  read- 
ing of  Bill  No„  36,  "An  Act  to  arnend  the  Public  r:/orks  Act," 
BJr.  Doucett, 

HON.  GEORGE  H.  DOUCETT  (Minister  of  Public  V/orks)  : 
Mr.  Speaker,  I  move  second  reading  of  Bill  NOc  26o  This  is, 
as  I  explained  the  other  day,  tji  amendment  to  the  Public 
Works  Act,  which  makes  it  permissible  for  us  to  obtain 
tenders  by  letters  instead  of  legal  tender.   In  the  case  of 
buying  properties,  heretofore  if  we  wished  to  make  the  offer 
it  was  by  way  of  legal  tender,  and  now  xie   are  asking  to  be 
permitted  to  do  it  by  letter. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  second  time, 

HON.  GEORGE  A.  DREW  (Prime  Minister):  Mr.  Speaker, 
it  being  now  close  to  six  o'clock,  I  move  the  adjournmejnt 
of  the  House o 

MR.  JOLLIFFE:  Mr.  Speaker^  perhaps  the  hon.  Prime 
Minister  might  indicate,  for  the  benefit  of  other  hon.  members 
of  the  House,  the  nature  of  the  business  to-morrow. 


MR,   DREW:  Yes.  As  I  explained  on  Friday,  it  is 
our  intention  to  proceed  with  the  debate  on  the  Speech  from 
the  Throne,  subject,  possibly,  to  giving  third  reading  to  a  • 
fetr  of  these  formal  bills,  which  will  not  take  more  than  ten 
or  fifteen  minutes  at  the  outside.   In  other  words,  I  will 
talce  up  nothing  which  will  cut  into  your  time. 

Motion  agreed  to-  and  the  Plouse  adjourned  at  5:55,  p.m. 

(Page  380  follows . ) 

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-  380  - 



Toronto 9  Ontario, 
Tuesday, February  27,1945. 

SPEAKER;  Honourable  William  J»  Stewart,  C»BoE. 

Tile  House  met  at  three  ,o* clock. 

Prayers  0 

MR.  SPEAKER:  Presenting  petitions o 

Reading  and  receiving  petitions, 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE;   The  following  petition  has 
been  received: 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  Township  of  Stamford, 
praying  that  an  Act  may  pass  granting  the  Township  the 
standing  of  a  town  for  the  purposes  of  Section  12  of  the 
Assessment  Act  and  Section  24  of  the  Public  Health  Act. 

The  following  petition  was  brought  up  and  laid 
upon  the  table: 

By  Mro  Martin,  the  Petitition  of  the  Ontario 
Music  Teachers'  Associationo 

MR,  SPEAKER:  Presenting  reports  by  committees. 

MR,  HARRY  A.  STEWART  (Kingston):   Mr.  Speaker,  I 
beg  leave  to  present  the  first  report  of  the  Committee  on 
Standing  Orders,  and  move  its  adoption. 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   Mr.  Stewart  (Kingston)  from 

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-  381  «  2-27-45 

the  Conimittee  on  Standing  Ordei-s  presents  the  first  report 
as  follows  J 

•Your  Standing  Committee  on  Standing  Orders  begs 
leave  to  present 'the  following  as  its  First  Bepcrt; 

•Your  Committee  has  carefully  examined  the 
following  petitions  and  finds  the  notices  as  published 
in  each  sufficient: 

Of  the  Corporation  of  the  Town  of  Barrie,  praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  Petitioners  to 
purchase  the  Barrie  arena  from  the  Barrie  Agricultural 
Arena,  Limited,  and  to  issue  debentures  of  fSOjOOC  in 
connection  therewith^ 

•Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Woodstock, 
praying  that  an  Act  may  pass  validating  a  by-law  and 
agreement  to  confer  an  exclusive  tec  year  franchise 
for  the  operation  of  buses  made  between  the  Corpora^' 
tion  and  the  Bluebird  Coach  Lineso 

•Of  the  Incorporated  Synod  of  the  Diocese  of 
Niagara  J  praying  that  en  Act  may  pass  extending  the 
authority  of  the  Petitioners  in  the  matter  of  the 
investment  of  its  general  trust  fundr.<, 

•Of  the  Evangelical  Lutheran  Seminary  of  Cans da » 
praying  that  an  Act  may  pass  authorl icing  an  increase 
in  the  nuraber  of  members  of  the  Board  of  the  Seminary 
and  an  extension  of  the  powers  of  the  Board  to  hold  real 
and  personal  property » 

•Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Sto  Thomas, 
praying  that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  said 
Corporation  to  establish  or  acquire  an  airport,  to  close 
certain  streets  and  for  other  purposeso 

•Of  the  Homan  Catholic  Separate  School  Board  of 


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0  08 

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-  382  -  2-27-45 

the  ©Ity  of  Ottawaj,  praying  that  an  Act  may  pass  authoriz- 
ing the  holding  of  elections  to  the  said  Board  every 
second  year  on  the  same  day  as  the  election  of  the 
Municipal  Council  of  Ottawa. 

•Of  the  Sacred  Heart  College  of  Sudbury,  praying 
that  an  Act  may  pass  raising  the  College  to  the  status  of 
a  university  to  be  known  as  the  University  of  Sudbury o 

*0f  William  Ao  Armstrongj,  Harold  Jo  Badden, 
Eo  Hoy  Butler,  at  al ,  praying  that  an  Act  may  pass 
authorizing  the  incorporatioh  of  a  Club  to  be  known 
as  the  Kingsboro  Club  and  to  borrow  money  and  pur- 
chase property  for  the  purposes  of  the  Club» 

•Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Toronto, 
praying  that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  Corporation 
to  pass  by-laws  for  slum  clearance  and  low  housing  pro- 
jects ;>  to  pay  certain  debenture  interest  in  funds  of 
the  United  States  or  Canada  and  for  other  purposes* 

•Of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of  Toronto ^  pray- 
ing that  an  Act  may  pass  authorizing  the  said  Corporation 
to  establish  and  appoint  a  permanent,  Planning  Board  o 

•Petition  of  the  Corporation  of  the  City  of 
Wellandj  praying  that  an  Act  may  pass  valid8.ting  an 
agreement  between  the  Petitioners  and  the  Erie  Coach 
Lines,  Limited, providing  for  an  ezclusive  franchise  to 
the  said  Erie  Coah  Lines »  Limited o 

•Your  Committee  recoimnends  that  Hule  NOo  63  of 
your  Honourable  House  be  suspended  in  this  that  the  tins 
for  presenting  Petitions  for  Private  Bills  be  extended 
until  and  inclusive  of  Wednesday,  the  28th  day  of 
February  next,* 

ME»  KELSO  ROBERTS  (Sto  Patrick):   Mro  Speaker, 


-     iQO 

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-  383  -  2-27-45 

Uro  Roberts 

I  beg  leave  to  submit  the  final  report  of  the  Select  • 
Standing  Committee  appointed  by  the  Legislative  Assembly 
to  consider  the  problem  of  the  development  and  processing 
of  the  Lignite  Deposits  in  OntariOo 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   Mr,  Eobsrts,  from  the 
Select  Committee  appointed  by  the  Legislative  Assembly  to 
consider  the  problem  of  the  development  and  processing 
of  the  lignite  deposits  in  Ontario,  presents  the  final 
report  as  follows: 

•This  Committee  begs  to  report  as  follows: 
•On  the  24th  and  25th  of  July,  1944,  the 
Committee  members  with  certain  exceptions  visited 
the  deposits  at  Onakawana  and  were  accompanied  by 
the  following  technical  staff  —  Dro  Ho  Co  Rickaby, 
Peputy  Minister  of  Mines ,  Do  Go  Sinclair,  Assistant 
Deputy  Minister  of  Mines  and  in  charge  of  the  lignite 
development,  A.,  Ro  Crozier,  Mine  Assessor,  Dro  EoAoRo 
Westman,  of  the  Ontario  Fuel  Commission,  Dro  Grenville 
Frost,  Professor  of  Chemistry,  Queen's  University,  Dr. 
George  Langford,  and  Ro  Lo  Sutherland,  Combustion 
Engineer  of  the  Truaz-Traer  Coal  Company  of  Chicago, 


*The  secretary  of  the  Committee,  Raiph  Hyman, 
and  William  Nlxonj,  former  Industrial  Commissioner  of 
the  To  and  No  Co  Railway,  as  well  as  Messrs.  E.  Ro 
Tucker  of  Cochrane,  R.  Do  Gumming  of  Haileybury,  Roy 
Thompson  of  Kirkland  Lake,  and  James  Horniek  of  Timmins, 
accompanied  the  Committee  at  the  invitation  of  the 

•The  Minister  of  Mines,  the  Honourable  Mro  Frost, 
also  accompanied  the  Committee  memberSo   On  July  twenty 


0^    ^IdmeaaA   i&> 

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« ^ao'xt  >  'ill  8 

-  384  -  2-27-45 

seventh,  1944 9  an  interim  report  was  submitted  to  the 
Premier  and  the  Government  of  the  Province o 

•On  the  twenty-seventh  and  twenty-eighth  of 
September,  19449  ^^'^   Committee  met  again  in  Toronto, 
At  this  meeting  a  progress  report  from  Mr.  Do  Go 
Sinclair,  Assistant  Deputy  Minister  of  Mines  and  in 
charge  of  the  lignite  development »  was  received  and 
the  memoranda  supplied  to  the  Chairman  from  the 
following  expert  staff  were  considered: 

•Mro  Ho  L.  Sutherland}  Combustion  Engineer, 
Truax-Traer  Coel  Company,  Chicago,  Illinois o 

"Mto  Ao   R.  Crozier,  Mine  Assessor,  Department 
of  Mines o 

•MTo  D.  G-.  Sinclair,  Assistant  Deputy  Minister 
of  Mines o 

•Dro  Grenville  Po  Frost,  Professor  of  Chemistry, 
i^ueen's  University s,  Kingston,  Ontario » 

*Dro  Ao  Bo  Ro  Wastman,  Ontario  Research  Founda- 
tion « 

"The  following  is  quoted  from  the  interim  report 

submitted  by  the  Committee  to  the  Premier  and  the  Govern^ 

ment  of  this  Province »  dated  September  twenty- eighth, 


•'At  the  request  of  the  Committee 
and  in  the  absence  of  Mro  Sutherland 
and  Dro  Frost,  Messrso  Crozier^  Sinclair 
and  Westman  who  were  present  at  the 
deliberations s,  analysed  the  recom" 
mendations  contained  in  the  memoranda 
and  advised  the  Committee  that  there 
was  substantial  agreement  among  the 
technical  advisers  with  regard  to 
factual  data  pertaining  to  the 
Onakawana  development  and  with 
regard  to  the  following  con- 
clusions and  recommendations  except 
where  otherwise  indicatedo** 

Herewith  are  their  conclusions  and  recommendations: 

--•wi    fine  rfd^r.  *• 




3aiyci3vei^    ajiogii    ofi.  3TBilo 

ctosuisa.!  .  aaai^o^iui. 





-  385  -  2-2f?-45 

•lo  The  mining  cost  is  the  most 
important  factoro 

•E.  The  processing  can  be  ace cmpli shed. 

•So  There  is  a  potential  market  for 

100,000  tons  of  processed  lignite 
a  year  but  not  an  assured  base 

•Dr»  Frost *s  memorandum  is  less  favourable  than  this 

since  he  concludes: 

•(1}  The  proposition  that  100,000  tons 
per  year  of  Flejtssner  lignite  can 
be  marketed  in  the  Cochrane-Kirkland 
Lake-Timmins  area,  as  a  self- 
supporting  enterprise ,  without 
access  to  the  railroad  market,  is 
unsound  o 

*4o  In  view  of  the  investment  already  made 
the  experimental  development  should  be  con- 
tinued on  a  tentative  basis o   There  is  a 
difference  of  opinion  as  to  whether  it 
should  be  confined  to  mining  or  should 
include  processing.   The  Sinclair  and 
Frost  memoranda  suggested  mining  only. 
In  view  of  later  discussion  in  the 
Committee,  Mr«  Sinclair  now  agrees  that 
processing  be  included  since  the  amount 
to  be  saved  by  eliminating  the  process- 
ing is  small  in  proportion  to  other 
expenditures  (possibly  $7,500  capital 
and  |3,500  per  month  for  two  or  three 
months o ) 

•5o  As  an  additional  recommendation 
we  would  suggest  that,  if  it  is 
decided  to  discontinue  the  develop- 
ment now  or  at  a  later  date,  arrange- 
ments be  made  to  stockpile  from  2,000 
to  5,000  tons  of  raw  lignite  so  that 
experiments  with  possible  new  pro- 
cesses which  may  prove  advisable 
in  the  future  will  not  require 
reopening  of  the  deposit," 

•Whilst  Messrs-  Crozler,  Sinclair  and  V/estman 
were  preparing  the  above  quoted  memorandum,  the  members 
of  the  committee  discussed  the  project  and  the  con- 
clusions which  they  reached  were  in  substantial  accord 
with  the  foregoing  memorandum, 

•The  Committee  has  had  an  opportunity  now  of 
studying  various  reports,  seeing  the  property  itself  and 




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-    386  -  2-27-45 

hearing  the   views  of  both  the   technical  experts  and 
others o  The  evidence  at  present  available  indicates 

that  any  field  of  commercial  operations,  will  in  all 
probability  be  confined  to   the  areas  known  as  A  and  B 
unless  new  means  of  recovery  or  treatment  or  both  are 
later  developedo        The  estimates  of  lignite  reserves 
including  both  lower  and  upper  seams   in  the  Areas  A 
and  B  approximate   10,000,000  tonso         :lrea  A,  which 
is    the  more   favourable  area  and   is  the   area  which  is 
at  the  present  time  being  worked,    is  estimated  to 
contain  approximately  3,000 jOOO  tons   of  nearly  all 
lower  seam  material <>        Only  actual  operations  will 
determine  what  proportion,    if  any,   of  the   upper  seam 
can  be  utilized  and  therefore  the  estimate   of  re- 
serves may  require  downward  revision..        Beyond  these 
areas  and  with  a  substantially  greater  ratio  of 
overburden,   a  further  90,000,000  tons  of  lignite   is 
indicated,  the  development  of  which  cannot,   in  our 
opinion,  be  economically  undertaken  under  present 
known  method So 

•It  should  toe  borne  in  mind  that  it. requires 
three  tons  of  the    raw  mined   to  produce  one  ton  of  the 
Fleissner  dried  lignite <>        Inevitably  a  variety  of 
sizes  would  be  produced  so  that   industrial  as  well 
as  domftstic  markets  would  be  necessary <,        It   is   • 
anticipated  that  not  more  than  75  per  cent  of  the 
Fleissner  dried  product  will  be  suitable  for  the 
domestic  market* 

*The  expenditures  for  experimental  plant  and 
equipment,    including  present   comiriitments  and  costs  of 
installation  amount  to  t432,000<>       This  is  an  experi- 
mental plant   only  and  will  be  capable  of  producing 

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-  387  -  E-27-45 

about  60  tons  of  the  Flei saner  dried  lignite  per  day. 
Obviously,  this  limited  production  could  not  be  self- 
supportingo   In  order  to  enlarge  and  equip  the 
operation  for  a  scale  of  production  of  100,000  tons 
per  year  of  Pleissner  dried  lignite  —  ioCo  about 
365  tons  per  day  —  additional  capital  expenditures 
estimated  at  $750^000  would  be  required o   It  should 
also  be  stated  that  the  expenditures  to  date,  in  ad- 
dition to  the  cost  of  the  plant  and  equipment,  amount 
to  approximately  |553,000.    It  will  be  observed 
that  total  expenditures  to  date  have  reached  about 

•Gf  the  $100j,000  allocated  to  the  enterprise 
by  the  Legislature  at  its  last  session^  $73,000  has 
been  spent  or  committed^  leaving  |27s,000  to  take  care 
of  the  requirements  up  to  December  Isto   Hr^  Sinclair 
estimates  that  this  amount  may  carry  the  enterprise  to 
the  period  of  entering  upon  production  and  estimates 
that  approximately  116;, 000  per  month  will  be  required 
to  Carry  on  the  experiiaental  operation  after  December 
1st  next 3  assuming  that  no  revenue  is  derived  from 
the  sale  of  the  product  to  apply  against  this  expendi- 

•From  the  evidence  before  the  Committee 3  the 
facts  as  they  have  been  able  to  ascertain  them  and  the 
advice  of  the  technical  staff,  the  Committee  (loes 
not  believe  that  the  development  of  the  lignite 
deposit  at  Onakawana  is  economically  sound,  particular- 
ly in  view  of  the  lack  of  evidence  of  any  substantial 
backlog  of  industrial  markets o   In  view,  however, 
of  the  large  amount  of  money  already  spent  on  the 

,j  ;.  .     ■%:■  .-•  ^ 

rac  - 

-Use    ad   #c  il-otfJboiq  fceJ'li!:  dO 

aaotf  0  ...  lii  aoiioubo,  ai&qo 

iasjome    . 

JW    OU. 

i3C9   Xe 

eacf  OC 

©IS 9     yi 




ffoiv  u 


-  386  -  2-27-45 

project  and  particularly  the  amount  that  has  been 
spent  on  the  partial  installations  of  a  plant  to 
dry  the  material  by  the  Fleissner  method,  the 
Committee  is  of  the  opinion  that  for  experimental 
and  research  reasons,  it  is  advisable  to  complete 
the  small  scale  plant  and  produce  therefrom  suffi- 
cient quantities  of  Fleissner  dried  lignite  in  order 
that  the  fullest  possible  information  can  be  mad* 
available  as  to  the  methods  and  results,  in  case 
at  some  future  date  this  information  should  be  of 
value  <» 

•In  this  connection  we  wish  to  draw  particular 
attention  to  the  summary  and  recommendations  contained 
in  the  memorandum  of  Mto  Bo  L.  Sutherland,  dated  August 
30th,  1944o 

•lo  A  study  of  the  various  reports 
covering  the  exploration  of  the  lignite  field 
and  the  experimental  work  on  processing  and 
burning  the  processed  lignite  indicates  that 
while  definite  progress  has  been  made  there 
are  still  a  number  of  variables  in  the  mining, 
processing  and  marketing  phases  that  have  not 
been  fully  explored,  and  which  can  only  be 
determined  by  actual  experience. 

'2«  Elimination  of  the  fuel  require- 
ments of  the  To  &  N.  0,  Railway  has  reduced 
the  potential  market  and  the  most  promising 
backlog  tonnage  for  a  commercial  develop- 

*3o  The  mining  and  processing  equip- 
ment required  to  provide  reasonably  definite 




ii)  lenaaieX^ 


-oseT  fcrre 



itwguA   6©.tsh    ,  baa  rTflrfrfirf 

c  oi/Iav 

3in   erf  If  nl 

baa  galeeeoc 
„   ....    ae-tp 




-qiyp»  salMtaooTcq  6119  S  erfT 

-  369  -  2-27-45 

data  on  the  cost  of  production  is  either 
Installed  at  th«  property  or  is  in  process 
of  fabrication, 

*4.  A  substantial  part  of  the 
stripping  required  for  one  season's  opera- 
tion of  the  processing  plant  has  been  com- 
pleted » 

'So  A  large  investment  in  explora- 
tion and  development  work  has  been  incurred* 

'60  An  estimate  of  the  cost  of  com- 
pleting the  small  scale  plant  now  under  con- 
struction and  of  operating  the  processing 
plant  for  a  period  of  nine  months  has  been 
included  in  the  Fuel  Commission's  Report* 
This  cost  can  be  considered  as  insurance 
protection  in  determining  whether  or  not  a 
commercial  development  would  be  a  prudent 
investment.   The  actual  operating  period 
required  will  depend  on  conditions  encount- 
ered and  cannot  be  determined  accurately 
in  advance. 

'In  view  of  the  investment  in  explora- 
tion and  development  work  to  date  it  is  recom- 
mended that: 

lo  The  stripping,  mining  and  processing  work 
now  under  way  be  continued  long  enough  to  pro- 
vide reasonably  accurate  information  on  (a) 
mining  conditions,  (b)  proecessing  technique, 
(0}  costs  of  mining  and  processing,  (d)  market 

-   &8B    -  i.    Bt   ■  .:s   Soli fl ten! 

.bit  91-^ 

-8K39    lO    #8O0    efl  ^^AOll^ea    flj4 

j.-.f  ■,  Tftna     f  f  R.trr 

a*«  .8(7    i9 

allow  J  7^  effT     »I 


-  390  -  2-'27-45 

reaction  in  both  domestic  and  industrial 

2o   In  the  initial  stages  of  market  develop- 
ment close  attention  be  given  to  the  use  of 
the  fuel  in  all  types  of  burning  equipment 
to  ensure  that  best  results  be  obtained <> 
This  may  require  the  services  of  one  or 
more  qualified  engineers  until  the  use  of 
the  fuel  is  well  establisheda 
3o  Consideration  be  given  to  provision  of 
an  assured  base  of  backlog  tonnage  before 
undertaking  a  large  scale  commercial  develop- 
ment to  avoid  operating  losses  during  the 
period  of  market  development.,   This  ton- 
nage can  best  be  provided  in  industrial 
plants  burning  fuel  throughout  the  year,, 
The  cooperation  of  owners  contemplating  the 
erection  of  new  steam  plants  or  having 
plants  in  which  the  installation  of  modern 
burning  equipment  would  be  most  helpful. 
Lignite  can  be  burned  in  plants  having  pul- 
verized fuel  equipment  without  change  to 
burners  or  furnaces o   Additional  pulver- 
izing capacity  may  be  required  on  account 
of  the  lower  heat  value  of  the  lignite  per 
ton  and  the  relatively  low  grindability  of 

•With  the  completion  of  such  a 
program  enough  information  should  be  avail- 
able to  determina  with  reasonable  accuracy 
whether  the  lignite  deposit  has  a  place  in 
the  immediate  economic  life  of  Horthern 


e*-^s-a  -  09S 

-qoX»re6   i^HrBm  to  e»8»J^8  Xst:? 
*a»mqiwpe  siilnijjcf  lo  eeqy 

^0   eeu   e  jioni 

dioled   asBnnoJ  goX^lo*  «8*  a* 

•^olevdh    leiETe.TLTioo   sXflOs   fA^ 

-'Xav**  iodiaa  to   bolzeq, 

:•■(:!. i  na.n   3 -a en 


-  391  -  2-27-45 

Ontario  or  should  be  considered  as  a 
potential  resource  to  be  reserved  for 
use  in  connection  with  other  natural 
resources  adjacent  to  the  deposit <>  In 
either  case  the  value  of  the  deposit  will 
have  been  determined  and  further  large 
scale  work  will  not  be  required  if  or 
when  commercial  development  becomes 
practicable o '  . 

"We  also  recommend  that  a  competent  strip 
mining  consultant  be  engaged  to  survey  the  mining  pro- 
blems at  the  property  and  submit  a  report  on  practices 
and  costs,  as  soon  as  possible ^  with  regard  to  the 
product  which  will  be  produced  from  the  experimental 
plant,  the  Committee  is  of  the  opinion  that  this 
should  receive  as  wide  market  tests  as  possible  for 
the  purpose  of  obtaining  information  concerning  pos- 
sible useo   In  this  connection  someone  experienced 
in  the  burning,  use  and  marketing  of  lignite  might 
well  be  employed  to  further  explore  and  develop  a 
purely  experimental  market,  whose  duties  would 
include  the  collecting  of  data  on  these  experimental 
marketing  tests. 

"It  is  the  view  of  this  Committee  that  the  full 
position  of  the  lignite  project  should  be  placed 
before  the  people  of  the  province  and  particularly 
those  most  interested  in  the  project  in  its  true  per- 
spective and,  to  this  end,  the  Committee  recommends 
that  consideration  be  given  to  the  issuing  of  factual 
statements  and  the  publication  of  a  pamphlet  on  the 
subject o 


t    -^.B.    f.sTft  ^J■  err  •I'-i    sd    ..  ..a    i''' 

©Sial  1  8   6eflinrc8*»6  net 

to   li    bp--  >...„    .  ,.„    ,.  ^^.. 

a«noo»d  3ve5  ielonemmoo  aeiiw 




m1u«    &fi« 

ts  aaisld 

I  ^tU(T 


-   392  "  2~27-45 

•Tte  Coinnilttee  wishes  to  again  express   its 
apx?rQSlation  of  the  work  of  the   technical  experts 
and  in  particular  of  Mro   Ro  Lo   Sutherland  and  DTo 
Granville  Frost »  both  of  whom  gav®  freely  of  their 
aer^lees  and  whose  counsel  and  advice  have  been  of 
great  value  to  the  Coinmittett  Iz.  its  deliberatlonso 

•The  foregoing  quotation  coamenoing  as  indi- 
cated on  page  two  and  continuing  to  this  point  eon" 
tains   the     main  findings  of  the   Gommitteeo 

"The  Comxaltte®  met  again  on  the   twenty-third  of 
Februftr>%  19463   and  authorized  this  chairman  to  submit 
this  report  after  considering  a  further  progress  report 
by  Mro  Do  Go  Sinclair o       Mr.   Sinclair'*s  report  bearing 
date  seventeenth  of  Februarys,  1945a   indicated  that  two 
autoclaves  h*%'e  now  been  completed  and  received  at  the 
property  and  that  a  contract  for  inataliation  of  the 
high  pressure   steaia  lines   from  the  boiler  plant   to 
serve  the  autoclaves  has  been  let  and  will  be  com- 
pleted as  soon  as  necessary »       Materials  Tor  the   in- 
stallation are  available.       Utc   Sinclair  reports  that 
in  the  fiscal  year  beginning  April  Ist;,  1944;,   and  up 
to  February  ISth.,   1945,   expenditures  relating  to  the 
deposit  totalling  ^893242 dS  in  addition   to  certain 
commitments  not  paid  for  during  the  periodo       Ee  also 
reported  that  a  fire  at  the  property  had  destroys*? 
the  garage,   machine   shop  and  part   of  the  warehouse  on 
February  9th,  1945o         A  considerable  quantity  of  parts 
of  essential  equipment  was  damagedo        The   committee 
recommends  proceeding  in  the  most  economical  manner 
possiblej  and   that  such  essential  work  as  may  be  re- 
quired bo  earried  outo        Recommendations  set  down  in 
the  above  mentioned   interim  report  on  September  27th, 
1944,   are  fully  quoted o 

*S«    J«fll 


-  393  -  2-27-45 

*Th9  Committee  stresses  the  view  that  it  does 
not  believe  that  the  development  of  the  lignite  de- 
posit at  Onakawa^a  is  economically  sound  particularly 
in  view  of  the  lack  of  evidence  of  any  substantial 
backlog  of  industrial  markets  but  for  the  reasons 
already  quoted  herein  is  of  the  opinion  that  a  suf- 
ficient quantity  of  Fleissner  dried  lignite  should  be 
produced  in  order  that  the  fullest  possible  informa- 
tion can  be  made  available  as  to  the  methods  and  re- 
sults in  case  at  some  future  date  this  information 
should  be  of  value o 

•The  study  of  the  Committee  has  been  confined 
to  the  question  of  the  lignite  deposits  in  OntariOo 
No  other  question  has  been  referred  to  it. 

•All  of  which  is  respectfully  submitted, 
(Signed)  A>   Kelso  Roberts, 

Chairman,  Select  Committeeo" 
MR,  JOLLIFFE:   Is  this  the  final  report  of  the 

MR*  ROBERTS:   The  final  report,  yea. 
Motion  agreed  tOo 
MR,  SPEAKER:   Motions <> 
Introduction  of  billso 

MR.  M,  Fo  HEPBURN  (Blgin);  Mr«Speaker,  I  move, 
seconded  by  Mr,,  Nixon  (Brant)  that  leave  be  given  to  intro- 
duce a  bill  intituled,  "An  Act  respecting  the  City  of  St, 
Thomas,"  and  that  same  be  now  read  the  first  time. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time, 
MR.  ROBERT  lAURIER  (Ottawa  East):  Mr,  Speaker, 
I  beg  to  move,  seconded  by  Mr,  Patterson, that  leave  be 
given  to  introduce  a  bill  intituled,  "An  Act  respecting 


-  5C£    - 

-•ft   ©tixssii   sdf  to  itci9mfjoLev9b   ^di  iBdt   sv»il»d  ion 

iBltaBlctfi/e  ifflA  lo  •0fl*6lT»  .10  liosl  edi  to  «»iv  nl 

efloeserr    -3ri?   toI   :j0(f   e:te3Jt8ia  lBJ:'r;fei;6rrJf    "to   »ol3f9(ld 

-li;e   fl   w'BXiJ  aoiaiqp   edi  'lo  ex   axs'iaii  casjup   ^toas-ixs 

•cT  Mxiode   9;fia8ll  bmtib  r(«a«cl«It  lo  ic#itiiBi;/p  #aeloJ;l 

-annolnl    sldteaor   tcalltfl   eri?   ?-2rf.-t   -r»b-r'.;   rri   fc»oi;5oT<T 

aol^Bjoiolai  elil^  •^•b  •itti  ailtsK 

b9ntJaoo  a&9a   ^nu  ©•i'JlaaaoD  onj    ic  YiJ^^Js  ©at*" 

-il    03   &&- 
»il*  lo   JioqeT  laail   •rfJ  eXii^ 



Q   ti   L  - 

(dvoffi  I    .lesleeqS.iM  Si*) 

-O':  9v«8l   t-  ft»6aoo©a 

oOisId^  isail   adt  bB9i  won  »a   »•&«£>   ui>d^   5a«  7,eaiaoilT 
oeal*    ^teti:!   edit   5eei  fiseise  iici^oM 

-  394  -  2-27-45 

Hto  Laurler 

the  City  of  Ottawa  Separate  School  Board,*  and  that  same  be 
now  read  the  first  timeo 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  tim«o 

MR.  HOWARD  E,  BROWN  (Well«nd);  Mr.  Speaker,  I  beg 
to  move,  seconded  by  Mr*  Robinson  (Port  Arthur)  that  leave 
be  given  to  introduce  a  bill  intituled,  "An  Act  respecting 
the  City  of  Welland,'*  and  that  same  be  now  read  the  first 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time. 

MR,  JOHN  Ho  COOK  (Waterloo  North);   Mr,  Speaker, 
I  move,  seconded  by  Mr*  Overall,  that  leave  be  given  to 
introduce  a  bill  intituled,  *An  Act  respecting  the 
Evangelical  Lutheran  Seminary  of  Canada, "and  that  same  be 
now  read  the  first  time. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  timeo 

MR.  Ao  KELSO  ROBERTS  (St.  Patrick)?  Mr.  Speaker, 
I  beg  to  move,  seconded  by  Mr<.  Murdoch,  that  leave  be  given 
to  introduce  a  bill  intituled,  "An  Act  respecting  the  Synod 
of  the  Diocese  of  Niagara,*  and  that  same  be  now  read  the 
first  time. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time. 

MRo  THOMAS  R.  DBNT  ( Oxford ) s  Mr,  Speaker,  I  move, 
seconded  by  Mr,  Arnott,  that  leave  be  given  to  introduce  a 
bill  intituled,  "An  Act  respecting  the  City  of  Woodstock, • 
and  that  same  be  now  read  the  first  timeo 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  timeo 

MRo  JOHN  L.  Mcdonald  (Stormont);   Mr,  Speaker,  I 
beg  leave  to  move,  seconded  by  Mro  Martin,  that  leave  be 
given  to  introduce  a  bill  intituled,  "An  Act  respecting 
the  Town  of  Barrie,*  and  that  same  be  now  read  the  first 


ad   9Si£ 


gecf   1    .re 

QYiJ  si.. 




ful     fi.TI.. 


eri  c" 

"i     OCttl 


K    9;:Jj'fcc 

o  O 

I    ,-te:iit;«cr2    .iM 


-  395  -  2-27-45 

MR,  SPEAKER:   In  the  absence  of  Mr,  Johnston, 
MPc  McDonald  moves  that  leave  be  given  to  introduce  a  bill 
intituled,  •♦An  Act  respecting  the  Town  of  Barrie,"   Does 
the  hon.  member  for  Haldimand- Norfolk  (Mr,  Martin}  second 
the  motion? 

MR.  MARTIN:   Yes,  Mr,  Speaker. 

Motionagreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time. 

MR.  AURELISK  BEIANGER  (Prescott);   Mr.  Speaker,  I 
beg  to  move,  seconded  by  Mr.  Murray,  that  leave  be  given  to 
introduce  a  bill  intituled,  •*An  Act  to  amend  the  Municipal 
Act,**  and  that  same  be  now  read  the  first  timoo 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  first  time. 

MR.  DUNBAR:   Will  the  hon.  member  for  Prescott 
(Mro  Belanger)  kindly  explain  the  bill? 

MR.  BELANGER:   Mr.  Speaker,  the  bill  looks  forward 
to  the  abolition  of  the  improvement  districts  as  they  have 
been  created  and  modified  by  an  amendment  to  Section  44  of 
the  Municipal  Act.    I  do  not  suppose  any  further  explana- 
tion is  necessary*    The  sole  intent  of  it  is  for  abolish- 
ing districts  that  were  created  in  1943  and  modified  in 
1944  by  Section  44  of  the  Municipal  Act. 

MR.  SPEAKER:   Any  further  bills? 

MR.  BELANGER:   Mr.  Speaker,  during  the  recess 
I  was  advised  officially  by  the  Department  of  the  Pro- 
vincial Secretary  that  a  new  policy  had  been  inaugurated 
regarding  the  incorporation  of  companies  or  corporations 
without  share  capital,  more  particularly  social  clubs. 

Whether  that  is  a  permanent  policy  or  just  a 
temporary  one  has  not  been  made  clear;  and  it  is  important, 
I  think,  that  the  hon.  Secretary  of  State  should  kindly 
tell  us  what  this  new  policy  is  regarding  the  incorporation 


265    - 

anriol   .iM  \o  •oaeadB  »d:  JiA2[*I8    .fCI 

Xjl^„    ^  ^..^ -.--    ~:    aovig   •'^   ova«r    ipdi   srivom  ManodoM 

a80<I        ".eiiiftfl  lo  awoT  »ri*   galwasqeei   j^oa  xia"   ,D8J- 

.iftatBBqS    .iM    ,aeY      :IUT' 
,&mti   ieill   edi   faeei   Illd   fens  o*  6«rx8«nojt*oM 

.6  -Til    ©ri*   5:  a^aSfi 

nl  ,'xU  Yd  Iro^iioo^b    « dvom  0}  sec 

v  t-iT        -f1 

iAi  eXaxs 

biBviol   ■■ 


ai;   59i 

:d   9di    ,ie^ 


..    ,i9ed 

aKfc  •■ 


J   ijeeivb*   esw  I 

.  edulo  Isiooa  Y-t'^* 


A  J  l« 


c.  .-.iil      Of 

:tflriw   . 

-  396  -  2-27-45 

Ur.  Belang«r 

of  a  club.  Then,  again,  the  f««  has  been  raised  from 
ten  dollars  to  twenty  dollars.   There  must  be  a  reason 
for  that,   I  would  like  the  hon.  Secretary  of  State, 
who  has  been  advJ^sed  of  my  question  this  afternoon, 
if  he  would  kindly  advise  us  -- 

HON.  GEORGE  H.  DUNBA.R  (Provincial  Secretary): 
I  thank  you  very  much  for  the  promotion. 

Mr.  Speaker,  regarding  any  new  policy,  I  have 
not  heard  of  any.   In  1942,  I  think  it  was,  in  this  House, 
where  there  had  been  complaints  that  the  police  in  larger 
municipalities  had  great  difficulty  with  social  clubs  than 
in  existence  carrying  on  gambling  games,  it  was  decided 
not  to  encourage  the  issuing  of  charters  to  social  clubs. 
That  was  before  my  coming  into  the  office  of  Provincial 
Secretary o   And  my  predecessor  asked  for  the  particulars 
regarding  the  clubs,  their  finances,  where-  they  were  to 
be  located,  the  names  of  the  members  which  constituted  the 
incorporation,  and  also  a  report  from  the  local  police  and 
from  the  provincial  police,  to  see  if  any  objection  was 
raised  to  a  club  being  established  there. 

Also,  further,  the  charter  of  an  incorporated 
club  in  this  province  is  not  worth  the  paper  it  is  written 
on;  it  does  not  amount^  to  anything.   It  does  not  give  them 
the  privilege  of  gambling  or  doing  anything  at  all.   But  if 
you  have  it  hanging  on  the  wall,  some  of  the  members  may  say, 
"This  is  a  chartered  club,*  and  start  doing  things  which  they 
should  not  do. 

Another  thing  that  has  made  it  difficult  in  the 
past  few  years  is  an  amendment  to  the  Criminal  Code  of  the 
Dominion  of  Canada >  in  which  you  can  sit  in  a  bona  fids 
club  if  you  pay  ten  cents  an  hour,  not  to  exceed  fifty 

5*    .-  ■.. 

tiidl  I 


01  •dw 

a»dt  sd 


««(fuX£)                              ^91  an 


.iaJtflioo  ^  B 

*  ;f»rfT 

Bit                                                                                          ■^..^.  ...  „ 


oJ  »i«r  '%9ii3  •©leri 


r  Bitcfasffl  c 

bnm  90.                               .  -..v  *..^  ,-- 

.^^.-,^  .^ 

8BW   /] 

fc©rld'    s?i?}    ion   aso6  *I        .^ 

'^eri;?   dotrfw  B-<^nl  ob  iiate.  baa  .9r9ti»fii>  s  ei  «^ 

exl;^  ai  tbrna  eeri  i»iii  ^ 

ari^   to   •I)o0  Los  9£i&   orf   ;t.fT9ffl&ii«i(n*  ne   ei   STUtY  w**^    .tea^f 

-  397  -  2-27-45 

Mr.  Dunbar 

cents  a  day,  and  you  can  play  games. 

That  has  caused  trouble  to  the  police  and  to 
municipalities;  because,  if  you  have  permission  to  enter 
a  club  and  sit  there  at  a  charge  of  ten  cents  per  hour 
or  fifty  cents  per  day  they  may  be  in  trouble,  after 
seeing  money  handled o 

They  do  not  require  a  licence  to  carry  on  the 
functions  of  a  social  club,  in  reality.   But  the  charter 
has  been  taken  and  placed  on  the  wall,  and  they  say, 
"We  have  a  charter o*    A  lot  of  people  who  did  not  know 
the  meaning  of  the  charter  felt  that  they  were  licensed 
to  do  almost  anything* 

So  far  as  my  policy  is  concerned,  it  has  not 
changed  from  the  previous  policy.   I  might  agree,  per- 
haps, with  the  hon.  member  for  Prescott  (MroBelanger) 
that  we  should  arrive  at  some  definite  policy.   But  I 
think  things  have  been  going  on  fairly  well  and  it  has 
been  handled  very  well  by  Mr.  Johns,  my  deputy » 

So  far  as  the  charge  of  $20  instead  of  $10,  I 
shall  get  the  information*   The  Deputy  says  "No  increase," 
I   thought  it  was  very  singular  that  I  did  not  know  of  the 
increase  to  double  the  fee,  but  my  deputy  says  there  is 
no  increase.   So  I  want  to  assure  the  hon.  member  for 
Prescott  that  I  shall  be  glad  to  talk  it  ove?  with  him  and 
arrive  at  a  policy,  so  that  he  may  get  that  information. 

I  agree  that  it  is  not  fair  to  the  public  to  lead 
the  people  to  believe  that  they  have  a  charter  which  gives 
them  some  protection  which  does  not  exist o 

MRo  BELANGER:   With  your  leave,  Mr,  Speaker,  I  want 
to  elucidate  the  subject,  and  perhaps  the  information  I  am 
about  to  give  will  be  welcomed  by  the  hon»  Provincial 

-S  -   ^Cc 

IB.      .  iM 


•mod  a«q  t!^n«i  ©aier 

eriJ •  no  icii«o  o;t  ©one  )D  ysri'V 

;  .  ,      -  ,r 

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398  -  2-27=45 


I  was  coDcerned  when  the  ruling  was  given  to  me 
that  the  incorporation  of  social  clubs  was  being  changed  a 
I  might  say  that  in  practically  every  parishj,  say  in 
Ottawa^  there  is  formed  one  of  those  social  clubs,  the 
object  of  which  is  simply  this:   It  is  not  a  proprietary 
clubj,  there  is  no  gain  which  goes  to  anyonso    The  profits 
are  simply  taken  to  instal  a  library,  or  increase  the  games 
and  enlarge  the  poolrooms  and  so  on^   the  object  being 
simply  something  like  the  YoM.C»A.   There  is  a  miniature 
YoMoC»A.  in  each  one  of  those  parishes^  with  the  object 
of  taking  away  j^rom  the  billiard  rooms  and  pool  rooms  the 
young  people  of  our  parishes <> 

Of  course s  I  understand  the  parish  can  have  it, 
but  if  there  is  no  incorporation  there  is  personal  lia- 
bility; whereas  with  incorporation  there  is  no  such  thing 
as  personal  liabilityo   I  think  that  is  why  those  ssc°= 
tions  of  the  Companies  Act  were  enacted  for  thc3se  cor=^ 
porations  without  share  capital,  just  so  as  to  help  along 
these  formationso 

I  understand,  and  I  agree  with  and  sympathize  with 
the  question  raised  by  the  hon.  Provincial  Secretary  {UTo 
Dunbar );>  that  these  might  develop  into  a  racket o 

If  you  will  allow  me  I  might  make  a  comparison » 
I  was  very  much  interested  years  ago  in  this  House  and  I 
was  instrumental  in  getting  legislation  passed  and  amended 
in  respect  of  the  Credit  Dniono   Now,  at  one  period^ 
suddenly  the  Department  thought  that  it  would  stop  the 
incorporation  of  those  credit  unions  because  of  abuses 
that  had  crept  upo     Steps  were  taken,  by  amendment,  to 
do  away  with  those  abuses;  and  oredit  unions  are  very 
rightly  incorpoi'ated  and  they  are  doing  really  much  goodo 

-  sec  - 

If-  ■><! 

.&©3flBiio  s^icd  BBV  arfi/Xo  ;  .^i^ 610(1100x1  i  ed*  *»d* 

fri    ''8?.    .rfetiftT  YTPive  ylleo Jtcfojsicr  nt    :i adi  yee    ^rtotr?   T' 

e^iloicr  onT  ,9fioYnje  rioiriw  hIbs   en  ei   ©tericf 

■  e  baa  emoc  eriJ  t  ns 

'.triim  c   ,.  -^.Y   9d:t   ©?{:  .rlJeiaos   ■'-'■I:rrni-fi 

7a©t*3o   8£i3-  nJiw    ^^diiexaaq  eeoa-   10  •no  lios©  ai    , 
srf;r  amc  oq  5as  bxsooi   bislXIid  ed^  moi^  xums 

£firf£i'IBq    tun    "^n    ^' 

iBfloeieg  ei   »iedt  nol^ncqnoc  eierfJ    ii   atid 

j^  ^^isic  J;  riftw  eaeieriw   .  i, —  td 

-«dfi  «»so4J  'x.iiw  ax  ^m:  ii  I  ^bM   laaoai^q  e/i 

tawe   STSW  .^J:nBC[*oO  »di   lo   eiio-ti- 

_*-     k-     V     i*-  ■^'      "'    -  '  ■-'     i.  »-    --  l-»    i..*      .      *.-  M     *.  * 

u  asȣ{;t  ^fii.  .adauQ. 


anilet   -^Tsw  scra^r 

399  -  2- S  7-45 

Hi-o  Bel  anger 

It  is  too  bad,  if  on  account  of  certain  racketeers 
and  abuses,  really  good  social  clubs  should  be  prevented  from 
talcing  the  development  which  an  incorporation  would  give 
thexao   So  that  it  is  a  question,  which  has  happened  very 
often,  that  in  order  to  stop  a  particular  evil  a  general 
good  is  abandoned o 

Mro  Speaker,  my  object  is  simply  this,  to  call 
the  attention  of  the  ho|a  Minister  to  these  facts  and  ask 
him  to  look  into  them  and  see  that  social  good  is  not 
being  prevented  throughout  the  province  of  Ontario  a 

MRa  DUI'IBAR:  Mr^  Speaker,  I  want  to  say  to  the 
hon.  member  that  I  was  not  acquainted  with  the  fact  that 
these  things  were  connected  with  the  church.   I  want  to 
assure  you  that  you  will  get  your  charter  in  order  to 
own  property  and  be  exempt  from  public  liability,  which 
Is  the  only  thing  the  charter  does.   But  I  tell  you  we 
have  to  be  careful,  and  you  will  agree  with  me. 

Take  for  instance,  Eastviewo   That  picture  taken 
in  there  with  men  marking  the  blackboard  in  connection  with 
races  going  on.   The  police  stopped  that;  but  as  far  as  the 
church  organizations  are  concerned,  I  v;ant  to  assure  you 
you  will  liave  a  charter o 

MRo  SPEAKER:   Third  readings o 

MRo  DREW:   Order  KOo  1= 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE 2   First  order,  third  reading  of  Bill 
NOo  S6,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Mental  Hospitals  Act,* 

HON»  R,  P.  VIVIAN  (Minister  of  Health);  Mro  Speaker, 
I  move  third  reading  of  Bill  NOo  36,  "An  Act  to  amend  the 
Mental  Hospitals  Acto* 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  third  time. 

MR.  DREW:   Order  No.  2. 

I 61 on as 

11.  I&iiti^ 





iir  beioeaac 

^    S91 





-  400  -  2-27-45 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE;   Second  order,  third  reading 
of  Bill  KOo  27,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Children*s  Protection 
Aot»"  Mr.  Vivian. 

HON.  R«  P.  VIVIAN  (Minister  of  Health):   Mr, 
Speaker,  I  move  third  reading  of  Bill  No,  27,  "An  Act  to 
amend  the  Children's  Protection  Acto* 

MR.  WILLIAM  M.  DOCiOER  (Kenora)j   Mr,  Speaker, 
I  think  v«  should  take  a  moment  to  see  what  the  bill  is. 
I  have  been  trying  to  find  the  bill  but  have  not  had  time, 

MBo  SPEAKER:  All  you  have  to  do  is  ask. 

MR.  DOCKER:  All  right,  Mr»  Speaker. 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  third  time. 

MR,  DREW:   Order  MOo  3o 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   Third  order,  third  reading  of 
Bill  No.  28,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Territorial  Districts  Act," 
Mr<,  Thompson. 

HON.  WEBLBY  a.  THOMPSON  (Minister  of  Lands  and 
Forests) ;   I  move  third  reading  of  Bill  KOo  28,  •An  Act 
to  amend  the  Territorial  Districts  Act o* 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  third  time, 

MR,  DREW:   Fourth  order. 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   Fourth  order,  third  reading 
of  Bill  Noo  29,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Surveys  Actj*  Mr* 

HON.  WESLEY  Go  THOMPSON  (Minister  of  Lands  and 
Fores-^s)?   Mr.  Speaker,  I  move  third  reading  of  Bill 
Noo  29,  "An  Act  to  amend  the  Surveys  Act," 

Motion  agreed  to  and  bill  read  the  third  time. 

HON.  GEORGE  A»  DREW  (Prime  Minister):   Mr.Speaker, 
I  wish  to  ask  leave  to  withdraw  from  the  Chamber  in  order 
to  present  the  Lieutenant  Governor,  if  you  will  permit. 


^atbii9i   bt  Bbfo 

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laiw  I 

-  401  -  2-27-45 

{The  hoHo  Prime  Minister  retired  from  the 
Chamber  and  after  some  time  returned  accompanying  His 
Honour  the  Lieutenant  Gove r nor o ) 

HON,  ALBERT  T,  MATTHEWS  (T.leutenant  Governor  of 
Ontario);  Please  be  seatedo 

THE  CLERK'S  ASSISTANT:   The  following  are  the 
Bills  to  which  Your  Honour's  assent  is  requested^ 

An  Act  to  provide  for  the  voting 
of  Active  Service  voters  at  a  general 
election  to  the  Assembly. 

An  Act  to  amend  the  Mental  Hos- 
pitals Act. 

An  Act  to  amend  the  Children's 
Protection  Act. 

An  Act  to  amend  the  Territorial 
Districts'  Act. 

An  Act  to  amend  the  Surveys'  Act. 
CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   In  His  Majesty's  name,  the 
Honourable  the  Lieutenant  Governor  assents  to  these  bills, 

(His  Honour  the  Lieutenant  Governor  retires 
from  the  chamber.) 

HON,  GEORGE  A,  DREW  (Prime  Minister):   Mr.  Speaker, 
before  proceeding  with  the  further  orders,  I  might  explain 
that  the  reason  for  proclaiming  the  bills  which  have  been 
proclaimed  is  so  that  the  Attorney  General's  Department  may 
proceed  with  the  discussions  with  the  Dominion  authorities 
in  connection  with  the  regulations  under  the  Active  Service 
Elections  Act,  and  until  that  was  actually  law  it  was  not 
possible  to  take  up  the  final  drafting  of  the  regulations 
with  the  authorities  at  Ottawao 
MR.  SPEAKER:   Orders. 

9dS  eie  T 


Tilltd   Bi 


-  402  -  2-27-45 

im,   DREW:   Order  NOo  7, 

CLERK  OF  THE  HOUSE:   Order  NOo  7,  resuming  the 
adjourned  debate  on  the  motion  for  the  consideration  of 
the  Speech  of  The  Honourable  the  Lieutenant  Governor,  at 
the  opening  of  the  sessiono 

MR.  E,  Ba  JOLLIFFE  (Leader  of  the  Opposition); 
Mr.  Speaker,  when  this  debate  adjourned  on  Thursday,  I 
had  Just  referred  to  the  eighth  point  in  the  Progressive- 
Conservative  Program  of  1943,  in  which  it  was  pledged  to 
create  an  Ontario  Housing  Commission  for  the  purposes 
of  wiping  out  slums,  improving  home  conditions  in  the  cities, 
towns  and  country  and  providing  postwar  employment  on  a  large 

With  reference  to  this  point,  speaking  on  the 

radio  on  December  13th,  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  said; 

•We  undertook  to  set 
up  an  Ontario  Housing  Comr 
mission  to  plan  housing  through- 
out the  provinceo    We  have 
gone  beyond  that  undertaking 
by  setting  up  a  Department  of 
Planning  and  Development  which 
includes  the  work  of  such  a 
commission  and  within  its  powers 
that  undertaking  has  been  fully 
carried  out  by  setting  up  this 
new  department  in  the  GoverniTiento.* 

Now,  Mro  Speaker,  how  much  has  been  done  with 
respefrt  to  housing  by  the  Department  of  Planning  and 
Development  remains  to  be  seen,  and  as  yet  we  have  seen 
little  or  no  evidence  of  it.   However,  the  eighth  point 
in  the  Progressive-Conservative  program  referred  not  only 
to  postwar  planning  and  better  housipg,  but  it  also  refer- 
red to  the  elimination  of  slums,  and  I  would  invite  the 
hono  Minister  of  Planning  and  Development  (Mr .Porter)  to 
give  the  House  the  fullest  information  of  what  has  been 
accomplished  to  date  during  the  nine  or  ten  months  in 


-  403  -  2-27-45 

-  Mr.  Jolliffe 

which  his  department  has  been  astabllshedo   What  has 
been  established  to  date  in  a  conerete  way  with  respeet 
to  the  removal  of  our  slums? 

Just  after  he  was  appointed,  I  think  in  the 
month  of  May,  the  hon.  Minister  told  a  gathering  of 
Toronto  architects,  as  reported  in  the  Globe  and  Mail 
of  May  5th,  that  the  government  ownership  and  control 
of  housing  projects  will  not  be  part  of  the  program  of 
the  newly-formed  Department  of  Planning  and  Develop- 
ment » 

Notwithstanding  that  statement  to  the  effect 
that  the  Government  would  not  be  associated  with  owner- 
ship of  new  housing  projects,  the  hono  Minister  was 
obliged  to  announce,  according  to  the  Globe  and  Mail 
of  October  19th,  that  the  Government  would  assume  a 
share  of  the  responsibility  for  providing  adequate 
housing  on  a  low- rental  basis  by  agreeing  to  share 
with  the  municipalities  fifty  per  cent  of  the  equity 
subject  to  the  National  Housing  Act,  Part  II o 

Now,  I  understand  that  to  mean  that  the  lend- 
ing institution  approved  under  the  National  Housing  Act 
would  put  up  ninety  per  cent  of  the  capital  required,  the 
municipalities  five  per  cent,  and  the  provincial  Govern- 
ment would  be  responsible  for  five  per  cent.   However, 
the  subject  referred  to  is  that  of  low-cost  housing  — 
that  is,  low- rental  housing  for  those  in  groups  which  are 
not  in  a  position  to  pay  the  full  cost  of  housing  accom- 
modationo   Every  housing  expert  in  the  world  to-day  agrees 

that  there  are  a  great  number  of  people  in  the  low- income 

for  them 
groups,  and  there  will  never  be  adequate  housing  within  any 

foreseeable  time  without  assistanoeo 

-  404  -  2-27»45 

Mro  Jolllffe 

I  say  to  the  bono  minister  if  he  thinks  five  per 

cent  represents  the  provincial  share*  of  the  responsibility 

for  low-cost  housing,  and  if  he  seriously  thinks  any 

adequate  housing  development  will  ever  take  place  in  this 

on  that  basis 
provinc^for  the  low-income  group,  then  he  is  mistaken, 

because  it  will  not  take  place  on  that  basis,  and  such 
has  been  the  experience  in  every  other  country  which  has 
undertaken  better  housing o   The  lending  institutions  are 
not  interested  in  low-cost  housing;  they  are  interested  in 
housing  on  a  higher  level,  for  people  in  the  upper  brackets 
of  the  working  class  groups  and  for  the  middle  class  people o 
But,  our  experience  everywhere  in  this  country,  as  well  as 
others,  has  demonstrated  beyond  doubt  that  lending  institu- 
tions are  not  interested  in,  and  are  in  no  position  to  cope 
with,  the  problems  of  low- cost  housing  for  large  numbers  of 
our  people,  and  neither  is  the  private  builder;  and  neitl^er 
is  the  working  man  himself,  if  he  is  in  the  low  income  group, 
and  they  can  hardly  be  expected  to  take  the  initiative  in 
low-cost  housing,  particularly  when  we  have  to  expect  — 
and  we  must  expect  —  that  from  time  to  time,  as  a  result 
of  economic  insecurity  and  depression  conditions,  legisla- 
tion will  be  introduced  to  protect  the  equity  of  the  unemployed 
home  owner o 

I  was  interested  to  hear  in  this  debate  the  seconder 
of  the  Address,  the  hon.  member  for  Peterborough  (Mro  Scott  J, 
comment  on  the  gravity  of  our  housing  problem  and  the  existence 
of  slxim  conditions  in  this  wealthy  country  at  this  time.   I 
was  pleased  to  notice  his  interest  in  the  subject,  too,  when 
he  went  on  to  say,  "As  long  as  we  have  slums  we  will  have 
communism  and  socialism  and  the  likCo"    I  was  very  much 
tempted  to  remind  him  that  so  far  we  have  not  had  communism  or 

-  405  -  2-27->45 

Mrp  Jolllffe 

socialism  in  this  country,  but  what  we  have  had  for  many 
years  is  Toryism,  and  still  we  have  the  slums »   So,  what 
the  hono  member  might  better  have  said  is,  "As  long  as  we 
have  Toryism,  we  will  probably  have  the  slums »* 

The  ninth  point  of  the  twenty- two-point  program 
pledged  the  Government  party  to  encourage  home  ownership 
and  home  improvements  by  a  sweeping  revision  of  the  whole 
system  of  real  estate  taxation  ooimnencing  with  the  payment 
by  the  Government  of  fifty  per  cent  of  the  cost  of  education* 
This,  Mro  Speaker,  has  probably  been  the  most  discussed  of 
all  the  twenty-two  pointso   It  was  discussed  not  only  at 
^he  time  of  the  election  and  all  during  the  last  session, 
but  very  much  since  the  last  session^ 

Now,  Mro  Speaker,  I  hope  that  in  discussing  the 
matter  we  shall  be  able  to  keep  some  sense  of  proportion  about 
It 8  and  we  shall  be  able  to  look  at  it  in  perspective.   I 
ahftll  endeavour  to  avoid  anything  in  the  nature  of  an  extra- 
vagant statement,  one  way  or  the  other,  about  the  relief 
which  is  now  promised  to  the  municipalities  of  this  pro-  • 
vinee  on  account  of  their  educational  costs,, 

Tl^e  first  point  I  want  to  make,  since  I  think  it 
is  essential  that  the  whole  njatter  should  be  clarified,  is 
this:   The  ninth  point  of  the  twenty- two  points,  in  reality 
does  not  relate  to  education o   The  realsubject  matter  of 
Point  NOo  9  is  the  financial  position  of  the  municipalities 
and  their  ratepayers.   That  was  the  real  subject  matter  of 
the  promise,  and  although  education  is  affected  in  many 
respects,  that  is  the  point  to  which  we  should,  in  the  first 
place,  address  ourselves <, 

As  far  as  this  group  is  concerned,  we  have  urged, 
for  many  years,  that  the  province  should  assume  a  larger 

406  -  2-87-45 


share  of  the  cost  of  social  services,  not  merely  because 
of  education,  but  because  of  our  social  service,  because 
it  is  perfectly  clear  we  are  no  longer  living  in  the 
kind  of  society  which  existed  in  1867,  or  even  twenty 
years  ago^  and  it  has  become  increasingly  clear  that  the 
municipalities  do  not  have  power  to  finance  adequate 
social  services  under  modern  conditions. 

We,  therefore,  welcome  the  decision  which  was 
announced  by  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  in  December,  the 
decision  to  give  increased  assistance  to  the  municipali- 
tieso   We  welcome  it  in  principle,  but  we  are  obliged 
to  reserve  our  right  to  analyze  and  to  criticize  the 
manner  in  which  the  principle  is  being  appliedo 

I  think  at  this  moment  I  should  say  that  some 
very  extravagant  statements  have  been  made,  and  continue 
to  be  made,  about  the  benefits ^ich  are  likely  to  accrue 
from  such  a  changco   While  we  welcome  increased  assist- 
ance to  the  municipalities,  let  us  not  be  carried  away  by 
wild  and  extravagant  statements  that  this  is  going  to 
mean  an  entirely  new  dispensation  for  the  taxpayers  or 
the  municipalities  of  the  provincco 

It  is  folly,  in  my  submission,  to  talk  as  though 
some  trivial  reduction  in  real  estate  taxation  will  result 
in  a  great  building  boom  in  this  province.   Actually,  Mr. 
Speaker,  the  financial  position  of  the  municipalities,  as 
the  hon.  Provincial  Treasurer  very  properly  pointed  out  in 
his  budget  speech  a  year  ago  —  the  financial  position 
of  the  municipalities  to-day  is  very  considerably  better 
than  it  has  been  for  years  past*   The  total  gross  deben- 
ture debt  of  the  Ontario  municipalities  has  declined 
from  |504,000p000  in  1932,  to  about  $281i)000,000  in  1943, 

»  407  -  2"27-45 

MTo  Jolliffe 

a  decreases  in  eleven  years,  of  more  than  $220, 000 » 000, 
in  the  total  gross  debenture  debt  of  our  municipalities o 

Total  tax  levies  have  been  reduced  from 
♦1279000»000  in  1932,  to  $111 ,00 0^000  in  1943o   I  think 
those  are  facts  which  must  not  be  forgotten  if  we  are 
going  to  think  about  this  problem  in  a  realistic  way,  and 
with  a  proper  sense  of  proportlORo 

The  actual  savings  to  taxpayers,  under  the  new 
scheme  of  general  legislative  grants,  will  be  very  small 
to  the  average  taxpayer,  and- I  doubt  if  it  is  wise  to  en- 
courage them  to  believe  that  they  are  going  to  get  very 
great  savings,  when,  in  fact,  they  are  noto   Even  if  the 
entire  benefits  of  the  grant  were  passed  on  to  the 
taxpayers  —  which  is  not  likely ^  in  view  of  the  fact  that 
many  of  them,  I  think  properly,  desire  to  raise  teachers' 
salaries  to  a  better  standard  — >  but  even  if  the  entire 
benefits  were  passed  on  to  the  taxpayers,  the  result 
would  not  be  very  substantial..  Unfortunate  though 
that  may  be.,  we  may  as  well  face  the  facts, 

I  can  mention  some  representative  cases  where 
municipal  authorities  nave  already  computed  what  the  saving 
is  going  to  mean,  if  it  is  all  passed  on  to  the  taxpayers » 
In  the  town  of  Parry  Sound,  the  saving  will  amount  to  about 
49  per  year  per  thousand  dollar  assessment,  or,  in  other 
words,  about  $16  a  year  on  an  assessment  of  $2j,000o 

In  York  Township  the  saving,  I  am  informed,  will 
amount  to  about  |4  or  possibly  $5  per  thousand  dollar 
assessment  per  yearo 

In  the  City  of  Gait,  a  middle-sized  city,  it 
will  amount  to  $4ol4  per  thousand  dollar  assessment,  or, 
for  the  average  home  owner,  probably  about  $9  a  yearo 

408  -  2-27-45 


In  the  city  of  North  Bay,  it  will  amount  to 
even  less,  $3,37  per  thousand  dollar  assessments 

Then,  if  we  turn  to  the  much  larger  cities ;,  in 
the  City  of  Hamilton  it  will  amount  to  $3,25  per  thousand 
dollar  assessment  per  year.   And  we  are  informed  by  the 
assessors  of  that  city  that  their  average  home  owner's 
assessment  is  in  the  neighbourhood  of  $2^000,  so  that 
in  the  average  case  the  saving  will  amount  to  about 
$6o50  per  yeara 

In  the  eity  of  Toronto,  of  course,  it  will  be 
even  less,  and,  assuming  that  It  were  all  passed  on  to 
the  taxpayers  —  which  will  not  be  the  case  --  but  assum- 
ing that  it  were,  the  saving  has  been  computed  at  $3o09  per 
thousand  dollar  assessment  per  year« 

Now,  while  these  improvements  are  to  be  welcomed, 
I  see  no  advantage  whatever  in  extravagant  statements 
being  made  to  the  effect  that  savings  of  from  $5  to  $20  per 
year  will  result  in  a  new  heaven  and  a  new  earth  for  our 
municipalities  or  our  taxpayers. 

I  am  vei'y  glad  to  hear  that  some  of  the  rural 
municipalities  —  but  by  no  means  all  of  them  —  will 
benefit  more  than  the  large  urban  municipalities,  and 
that  is  probably  as  it  should  be,  in  view  of  the  disad- 
vantages under  which  they  have  laboured  in  matters  of 
education.    But  even  in  their  case  the  amount  involved 
will  be,  at  most,  only  a  few  dollars  per  person  per  year. 

I  suggest,  and  with  all  respect  to  the  rural 
municipalities,  that  it  would  be  absurd  to  conclude  that 
that  kind  of  tax  revision  in  itself  will  solve  the  problem 
of  establishing  proper  educational  standards  throughout 
the  rural  areas  of  Ontario » 

-  409  -  2-27-45 


The  Government,  and  the  hon.  Provincial  Treasurer 
partioularly,  have  urged  the  municipalities  that  the 
benefits  of  the  new  grant  be  passed  on  to  the  taxpayers « 
I  think  the  whole  .House  appreciates  that  in  many  cases 
that  will  Just  be  not  possible,  and  in  many  cases  it  is 
not  desirable,  because  of  the  need  for  improving  education- 
al services,  and  in  particular,  for  improving  teachers* 

HON.  GEORGE  Ao  DREW  (Prime  Minister):   I  do  not 
want  to  interrupt  the  htpn.  Leader  of  the  Opposition  (Mro 
Jolliffe),  Mr.  Speaker,  but  in  case  the  hon.  member  does 
not  know,  that  was  explicitly  stated  to  the  school  boards 
that  teachers'  salaries  were  not  excludedo 

MRo  JOLLIFFE:   Oh,  J  know  that;  I  am  well  aware 
of  it,  and  I   have  said  nothing  to  suggest  that  it  has  been 
forbidden.   I  think  I  am  stating  the  position  fairly  when 
I  say  that  the  Government,  and  the  hon.  Provincial  Treasurer 
in  particular,  have  urged  that  the  municipalities  pass  on 
the  benefits  of  the  new  grant  to  the  taxpayers.    And 
the  hon;  Prim©  Minister  and  Minister  of  Education  will^  I 
assume,  agree  that  the  hon,,  Provincial  Treasurer  has  advised  -■ 

MR.  DREW:  May  I  — 

MR»  JOLLIFFSj  Just  a  moment  —  has  advised  the 
school  boards  that  the  Government  does  not  intend  to  prevent 
proper  increases  being  granted  to  school  teachers » 

Kow,  I  am  quite  well  aware  of  that,  and  I  do  not 
think  I  have  misstated  the  position  when  I  say  we  must  expect 
that  considerable  increases  will  be  granted  to  school  teachers 
—  and  very  properly  granted  to  school  teachers  —  because 
we  have  recognized,  in  common  with  other  political  parties, 
with  the  Labour  movement  and  many  other  organizationsg  that 

-  410  -  E-27-45 


a  batter  standard  of  teachers^  salaries  must  ba  established 
throughout  the  province « 

However,  the  point  I  wanted  to  make  was  this; 
that  the  Government  cannot  have  this  thing  both  ways.   If 
they  are  going  to  say,  in  one  brea'^h,  that  the  benefits 
of  the  new  grant  ought  to  be  passed  on  to  the  taxpayers » 
and  in  the  next  breath  that  this  change  is  going  to 
equalize  educational  opportunities,  then  they  are 
talking  in  highly  contradictory  language;  they  cannot 
have  it  both  ways;  if  the  taxpayers  get  the  benefit, 
education  will  not  get  the  benefit,  and  vice  versfto 
I  suppose  the  ultimate  result  will  be  a  sort  of  com- 
promise between  the  twoo 

But  what  is  more  serious,  Kr,  Speaker,  is 
the  way  in  which  the  plan  actually  works  out  in  its 
application,  under  the  new  regulations o   Bhile  we 
welcome  increased  assistance  to  the  municipalities, 
we  are  regretfully  bound  to  regard  the  new  grant 
system  as  being  highly  inequitable  in  many  respectso, 
Urban  schools  are  receiving  grants  on  a  percentage  of 
their  approved  costs  for  last  yearo   Now,  everybody 
knows  that  some  boards  have  had  much  more  money  to  spend 
per  capita  than  other  boards <>   That  happened  for  a  n\imber 
of  reasons o   In  some  cases  it  happened  because  prolonged 
depression  weakened  one  municipality  more  than  another* 
Some  boards  have  had  to  meet  a  heavy  influx  of  new  popu- 
lation, particularly  in  recent  years,  without  a  cor- 
responding increase  in  tax  reoeiptSo    Some  municipali- 
ties are,  and  always  have  been,  much  poorer  than  others, 
and  their  educational  expenditures  have  been  consistently 
and  continuously  lower  than  others o   Some  separate  school 

-  411  -  2-27-45 

Mr»  Jolllffe 

boards  have  had  far  less  money  to  spend  per  pupil  than 
other  boards,  and  far  less  than  was  required  to  provide 
anything  like  equality  of  educational  opportunities* 

All  these  examples  of  disparities  and  injustices 
are,  in  my  submission,  aggravated  by  the  new  grants  system* 
The  more  money  an  urban  board  spent  last  year  —  that  la, 
the  greater  their  approved  costs  last  year  —  the  more  they 
will  receive  from  the  province  this  year.   The  less  they  were 
able  to  spend  last  year,  the  less  they  will  receive  from  the 
provincial  government  this  year.   It  simply  means  that  the 
Government  is  being  more  generous  to  the  strong  than  they 
are  to  the  weak,  and  it  is  my  hope  that  some  method  will 
be  found  of  correcting  that  highly  obvious  injustice  to 
many  of  the  municipalities  of  this  province. 

I  have  a  further  suggestion  to  urge  upon  the 
Government,  namely,  that  an  arrangement  should  be  made  to 
make  advances  to  the  municipalities  in  the  spring  —  or 
perhaps  I  should  say,  to  the  school  boards  in  the  spring  — 
toward  their  1945  educational  costs.   The  present  policy 
of  payment  in  the  fall  or  autumn  forces  some  municipalities 
to  borrow  now  against  the  grant  to  be  received  later,  and 
even  if  the  grant  to  be  received  later  will  be  larger 
than  it  was  last  year,  they  will  still  be  facing  that 
difficulty.   It  costs  them  more  money  to  borrow  than  it 
would  cost  the  Provincial  Treasurer,  and  since  he  Wa 
able  to  tell  us  last  year  that  the  treasury  is  in  a  much 
more  liquid  position  than  for  some  time  past,  when  he  was 
able  to  report,  I  think,  a  reduction  of  $40,000,000  last 
year  in  treasury  bills,  it  should  be  possible  —  it  should 
not  be  difficult  —  to  arrange  practical  assistance  of  that 
kind  to  our  school  boards. 

-  412  -  2-27-45 

Mr.  JoUiffe 

I  am  very  much  puzxled  indeed  by  one  devel(q)ment 
In  connection  with  school  costs »  and  that  is  the  fate  of 
the  Hope  CS^ommlssion  or  Conmltteeo.   During  last  session,  it 
was  announced  to  this  House,  Just  before  the  budget,  that 
because  of  the  complexity  of  this  proDipm,  the  Government 
found  it  necessary  to  appoint  a  royal  commission  —  that 
was  the  term  used,  I  am  certain,  by  the  hon.  Provincial 
Treasurer  --  to  investigate  the  whole  question,  and  we 
were  given  to  understand  that  it  would  take  time  and  would 
involve  a  very  exhaustive  inquiry  into  many  associated 
matters,  as  well  as  the  specific  problem  of  grants  to  our 
school  boards. 

Little  or  nothing  was  heard  of  that  Commission 
during  the  summer,  except  that  one  of  His  Majesty's  Judges 
was  announced  as  having  accepted  appointment  as  chairman. 
And  when  the  hon.  Prime  Minister  made  his  announcement  in 
December  regarding  the  new  scheme  of  legislative  grants^ 
for  which  the  municipalities  were  to  receive  the  details 
about  the  middle  of  December,  there  was  no  report  of  the 
work  of  the  Royal  Commissiono   There  was  merely  the  assur- 
ance that  the  Hope  Committee  —  as  he  now  referred  to  it  -- 
would  continue  to  investigate  the  problem.   I  think  the 
House,  in  view  of  what  we  were  told  last  year,   is  entitled 
to  some  further  enlightenment  on  the  general  subject  of 
that  inquiry o 

The  House,  I  am  sure,  would  be  interested  to 
know  what  facilities  will  be  offered,  and  at  what  time, 
for  all  interested  organizations  to  make  representations 
to  this  committee  or  commission,  whatever  it  may  be  --  and 
I  can  think  of  many  municipalities,  and  many  other  bodies, 
which  would  wish  to  place  their  case  before  such  an  inquiry* 

-  413  -  2-27-45 

Mr»  Jolliffe 

Now,  Mr.  Speaker,  what  I  have  been  discussing  was, 
I  inay  say,  not  the  education  point  in  the  Progressive  Con- 
servative program,  but  that  point  which  related  to  the 
financial  position  of  our  municipalities  and  their  tax- 

It  was  the  next  point  --  No«  10  --  which  actually 
related  to  education,  and  it  was  a  most  specific  and  sweep- 
ing pledge  which  was  made  by  the  Government,   No,  10  reads: 

•To  give  every  child  an 
education  to  the  full  extent  of 
its  mental  capacity,  together 
with  vocational  instruction  for 
farm  or  city  lifso* 

1  would  willingly  concede  that  a  program  as 
ambitious  as  that  one  would  take  some  time  to  fulfil,  but 
in  our  view,  that  promise,  apart  from  a  few  changes,  and 
perhaps  a  few  improvements  in  the  educational  system  of 
this  province,  is  not  being  seriously  kept.   In  my  view, 
the  Government  has  been  making  such  a  noise  about  the 
other  point,  the  one  that  relates  to  municipalities  and 
their  educational  costs,  that  their  admirers  and  supporters 
have  been  losing  sight  of  the  pledge  made  to  every  child, 
because  Point  No.  9  was  essentially  a  promise  made  to  the 
children  of  this  province,  and  their  needs  are  entitled 
to  just  as  much  consideration  in  this  House  —  and,  in 
my  opinion,  more  —  than  that  of  those  who  are  able  to 
make  so  much  noise  about  their  taxeso 

There  has  been  some  increased  assistance  by  way 
of  scholarships  to  some  of  the  students  of  Ontario,  and 
as  far  as  it  goes  it  is  praiseworthy,  but  we  believe  it 
to  be  but  a  drop  in  the  bucket.   It  does  not  compare  with 
the  facilities  which  have  been  created  in  Great  Britain 
through  the  years  for  the  assistance  of  students  of  merit. 

-  414  -  2-27-46 

Mr.  J"oi).iffe 

both  in  the  secondary  schools  and  in  the  universities. 

When  I  attend  a  British  university,  I  was 
informed  by  one  of  the  authorities  of  that  university 
that  more  than  fifty  per  cent  of  the  under- graduates 
of  that  day  would  not  be  attending  that  university,  would 
not  be  there  at  all,  were  it  not  for  the  assistance  they 
were  receiving  in  some  form,  either  from  the  university 
itself,  from  the  oantral  government,  or  from  the  muni- 
cipalities, from  which  they  came. 

I  do  not  think  that  our  scholarship  progress 
in  this  province  compares  in  any  way  favourably  with  that 
long  since  developed  in  Great  Britain,  and  while  the 
Government  is  entitled  to  take  some  credit  for  whatever 
improvement  there  has  been,  let  them  not  imagine  that 
the  problem  has  been  met  in  any  wayo 

And,  secondly,  although  I  do  not  want  to  return 
to  the  question  of  municipal  financing,  I  will  say  this, 
that  there  can  be  no  real  equality  of  opportunity  for  the 
children  of  Ontario  until  the  amount  spent  on  education 
per  child  in  each  municipality  is  approximately  the  same, 
having  regard  to  the  varying  conditions o   Until  that 
time  comes,  until  all  the  children  of  this  province  get 
an  education  as  costly  as  the  best,  or  the  opportunity 
to  receive  that  education,  there  is  nothing  like  equality 
of  educational  opportunities  —  nothing  that  even  remotely 
resembles  it.   One  group  of  school  children  in  the  city 
of  Toronto  have  the  experience  of  obtaining  their  primary 
education  at  a  cost,  in  1943,  of  less  than  $50  per  child, 
and  another  large  group  of  school  children  in  the  city 
of  Toronto,  attending  public  schools,  financed  also  by 
the  taxpayers,  were  educated  at  a  cost,  in  1943,  of  over 

-  415  -  2-27-45 

Mr,  Jolliffe 

$109  per  child.   How  can  anyone  possibly  say  there  is 
any  resemblance  whatever  to  equality  of  opportunity,  in 
a  situation  of  that  kind,  and  we  find  nothing  in  the 
Government's  program  to  show  that  iheasures  are  being 
taken  to  remove  the  gross  disparity  between  the  oppor- 
tunities available  to  some,  and  the  opportunities  avail- 
able to  others. 

Similarly,  Mr*  Speaker,  Point  No,  11  of  the 
22  Points,  was  equally  sweeping  in  its  pledge  to  the 
children  of  Ontario,    The  promise  was  to  assure  all 
children  —  all  of  them  —  adequate  medical  and  adequate 
dental  services  and  health  protection.   Is  there  a 
single  hon,  member  of  this  House  who  would,  for  a  moment, 
suggest  that  all  the  children  of  Ontario  are  getting  ade- 
quate medical,  adequate  dental  and  health  protection,  or, 
if  the  present  Government  goes  on,  will  they  get  it  ten 
years  from  now  or  twenty  years  fi'om  now,  on  the  basis  of 
the  kind  of  program  presented  to  us- by  the  Speech  from 
the  Throne,  and  by  the  hon.  Minister  of  Health  (Mr. 
Vivian)  whenever  he  has  had  the  courage  to  speak  to  us? 
It  just  has  not  been  doae. 

There  is  a  very  lengthy  passage  on  Health  in 
the  Speech  from  the  Throne,  and  I  am  amazed  to  find,  in 
spite  of  Point  No,  11,  that  it  does  not  contain  a  single 
reference  to  the  health  of  the  children  of  Ontario.   It 
contains  references  to  other  matters  which  do  involve 
children,  but  there  is  no  specific  reference  whatever  to 
the  children,  to  whom  that  sweeping  pledge  was  made  in 
July,  1943. 

The  Government  has  continued  and  extended  — 
and  perhaps  improved  in  some  respects  —  many  of  the  measures 

-  416  -  2-27-45 

Mr.  Jolllffe 

initiated  by  previous  administrations  in  connection  with 
industrial  and  social  diseases,  tuberculosis,  mental 
hospitals,  cancer  control,  and  so  on.   Patchwork  measures, 
all  of  them.   Valuable  for  what  they  are,  and  I  am  sure 
such  work  would  have  to  be  continued  and  extended  by  any 
Administration.   But  essentially  they  are  only  nibbles 
at  the  problem  of  health,  nibbles  at  the  edges  of  one  of 
our  greatest  problems. 

The  Grovernment  has  increased  grants  to  mental 
and  other  hospitals,  but  I  think  they  could  do  no  other, 
in  view  of  the  need  and  in  view  of  their  greatly  increased 
revenue , 

Mr.  Speaker,  in  the  Speech  from  the  Throne  the 

claim  is  made  that  the  Government,  or  the  Department  of 

Health,  have  the  cooperation  of  the  medical  profession. 

I  am  greatly  relieved  to  hear  it,  because  some  people 

might  have  suggested  that  the  profession  had  not  very 

much  cooperation  from  the  Government,  if  they  were  to 

accept  what  was  said  in  the  Journal  of  the  Canadian 

Medical  Association,  of  May,  1944,  where  the  following 

report  appeared,  under  the  heading  of  "Ontario*: 

"A  special  meeting  of  the 
Council  of  the  Ontario  Medical 
Association  was  held  in  Toronto 
on  March  21.   The  purpose  of'  the 
meeting  was  to  discuss  the  Health 
Bill  which  had  just  been  passed  ■ 
by  the  Legislature  of  Ontario. 
The  Bill  had  been  hastily  prepared., 
without  any  consultation  with  any 
of  the  Interested  parties.   The 
Council  was  assured  that  the  bill 
had  been  already  enacted,  but  the 
actual  enactment  took  place  at  a 
later  date.  The  Minister  of 
Health  and  the  Attorney  General 
addressed  the  Council  at  luncheon, 
and  explained  the  necessity  and 
the  purpose  of  the  new  legislation.* 

I  can  well  remember,  Mr.  Speaker,  when  some  of  us 

-  417  -  2-27-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

were  so  bold  as  to  suggest  that  that  particular  ineasure  had 
been  prepared  in  a  hurry,  and  we  were  frowned  upon  from 
great  professional  heights,  and  now  we  find,  according  to  the 
official  organ  of  the  Canadian  Medical  Association,  that  the 
bill  had  been  hastily  prepared,  without  consultation  with 
the  interested  parties. 

However,  Mr.  Speaker,  to  progress  to  a  more  imr 
portent  matter,  and  probably  a  much  more  significant  one 
to  the  hon.  Minister  of  Health,  I  want  to  urge  upon  him 
what  we  believe  to  be  a  perfectly  feasible  suggestion, 
which  his  Government*  or  any  other  government  of  Ontario, 
might  well  be  proud  to  attempt. 

I  am  going  to  state  it  as  carefully  and  clearly 
as  I  can,  as  I  wish  to  make  it  perfectly  plain  at  the  out- 
set that  it  is  not  being  put  forward  in  any  partisan  way, 
but  as  a  constructive  suggestion  which  we  hope  will  be 
seriously  considered. 

No  matter  what  approach  we  adopt,  it  would  be 
several  years  before  a  full-fledged  system  of  modern 
health  services  could  be  established  in  Ontario*   That 
much  delay  is  inevitable,  due  to  the  present  shortage  of 
both  personnel  and  buildings.   It  takes  time  to  train 
doctors  and  build  hospitals* 

The  shortage  of  personnel  will  not  be  so  acute 
if  the  war  ends.   But  even  then,  after  the  return  of  all 
the  doctors  and  nurses  to  civilian  life,  we  shall  need 
many  more  doctors,  many  more  dentists,  nurses  and  other 
personnel.   As  for  the  deficiency  in  buildings  and  equip- 
ment, it  'is  probably  worse  than  the  deficiency  of  personnel, 
and  unfortunately  very  few  plans  are  ready  for  construction. 

Admitting  all  these  difficulties,  we  are  anxious 

-  418  -  2-27-45 

Mr.  Jolllffe 

to  assure  the  best  type  of  health  care  for  our  people,  to 
be  initiated  and  developed  as  quickly  as  possible.   We  of 
the  CCF  have  consistently  advocated  a  system  of  socialized 
health  services,  because  we  i»elieve  that  both  the  weight  of 
evidence  and  the  lessons  of  experience  show  that  such  a 
system  would  produce  the  best  results  for  both  the  general 
public  and  the  personnel  of  the  health  services. 

But  what  could  be  done  now  and  what  we  challenge 
the  Grovernment  to  do  is  this:  Give  the  system  of  socialized 
health  services  and  its  rival  systems  a  fair  trial,  a  truly 
scientific  testing  in  three  or  four  experimental  areas  in 

There  are  many  like  ourselves  who  favour  socialized 
health  services.   There  are  others  who  favour  a  type  of  health 
insurance  such  as  the  Haggarty  plan  which  has  been  under 
consideration  at  Ottawa.  ■  Still  others  defend  the  present 
system  and  oppose  both  socialized  health  services  and 
health  insurance.   Why  not  give  these  three  systems  a 
thorough  testing  in  three  similar  areas  in  Ontario? 

Of  course,  it  would  be  necessary  to  make  the 
test  by  the  scientific  method  —  that  is,  by  checking  and 
by  the  use  of  controlled  and  re- checked  observations  and 
experiments  objectively  recorded  with  complete  statistics 
and  with  Absolute  honesty  and  without  fear  or  favour,  in 
all  these  three  experimental  areas. 

We  say  that  three  areas  in  Ontario  should  be 
selected  and  they  should  be  comparable  areas,  in  connec- 
tion with  their  population.    They  should  contain  both 
oity  and  country  people  so  that  we  will  be  able  to  get 
results  for  both  urban  and  rural  populations  under  both 
conditions.   In  one  area  you  would  establish  a  complete 

-  419  -  2-27-45 

Mr.  Jolllffe 

system  of  socialized  health  services,  staffed  by  people 
who  believe  in  that  system.   In  the  second  area  you  would 
set  up  a  health  insurance  scheme  under  the  Haggarty  Plan 
of  operation.     In  the  third  area,  you  could  let  the 
present  system  operate  as  it  does  now,  subjeet  to  this, 
that  in  all  probability  the  Ontario  Medical  Association 
should  be  invited  to  supervise  it  in  order  to  ensure  that 
that  system  does  get  an  adequate  trial,  and  that  a  team 
of  statisticians,  independently  appointed,  should  be  the 
collectors  of  complete  records  and  complete  statistics 
for  the  results  in  that  area.   Notwithstanding  the  pre- 
sent shortage  of  personnel  and  materials  we  believe  that 
sufficient  doctors  and  nurses  would  become  available  or 
will  soon  be  available  to  give  a  fair  trial  to  these 
three  systems  in  three*  areas  in  Ontario* 

We  know  it  dould  not  be  done  throughout  the 
whole  province  but  it  could  be  done  in  three  representa- 
tive areas,  and  if  the  Ontario  Mihister  of  Health  were 
to  launch  such  an  experiment  I  think  he  would  be  naking 
historyo   The  thing  has  never  been  done  before  in  any 
country  at  any  time.   No  scientific  comparison  of  the 
various  health  services  is  available,  absolutely  none» 
Different  systems  have  been  tried  in  different  countries 
but  they  cannot  be  scientifically  compared  as  to  results 
because  the  initial  conditions  were  so  very  different. 

The  Dominion  Government  also  professes  to  be 
interested  in  health  services,  and  in  their  improvement. 
I  suggest  to  the  Ontario  Minister  of  Health  that  he 
challenge  the  Hon.  Brooke  Claxtpn,  the  federal  minister, 
to  cooperate  financially  and  otherwise  in  making  such 
an  experiment  in  the  province  of  Ontario*   Probably 

420  -  2-27-45 

Mr.  Jolliffe 

Ontario  is  the  only  province  where  the  thing  could  be  done» 
probably  the  only  province  where  there  are  available  three 
coraparable  areas  in  which  the  experiment  could  be  carried 
on.   I  do  not  believe  that  such  conditions  do  exist  in 
other  provinces o   So  all  I  am  proposing  is  that  the  Govern- 
ment engage  in  ^scientific  experiment  of  great  social 
importance,  which  is  feasible,  which  can  be  undertaken 
within  a  reasonable  period  of  time  and  which  will  provide 
results  of  greatest  value  to  the  people  of  this  province, 
to  the  Dominion  and  even  to  other  lands. 

I  might  say  that  there  is  evidence  in  support 
of  the  suggestion  from  the  Speech  from  the  Throne  itself 
because  we  are  there  told  that  there  is  •a  total  lack  of 
reliable  information  as  to  the  cost  of  operating  ccm- 
prehensive  curative  health  services.*    Here  is  a  chance 
for  the  Government  to  find  out,  and  one  of  the  results 
which  could  be  ascertained  from  such  an  experiment  would 
be  the  actual  cost  of  operations  in  all  three  cases. 

Other  results  in  which  we  are  all  interested, 
of  course,  would  be  the  mortality  rates,  the  morbidity 
rate  and  other  information  which  I  am  sure  the  Minister 
will  agree  are  not  available  to  him  now  as  he  would  like 
them  to  be  available. 

But  we,  in  urging  that  three  areas  should  be 
selected  for  the  purpose,  have  in  mind,  of  course,  that 
the  consent  of  the  people  in  these  areas  would  be 'obtained, 
and  the  test  would  not  only  provide  services  for  them  but 
results  for  general  use.   In  the  meantime,  of  course,  the 
rest  of  the  province  could  not  be  included  and  I  would  assume 
that  any  administration  in  office  would  do  its  utmost  to 
make  progress.   The  services  in  the  other  areas  would 

-  421  -  2-27-45 

Itr.    Jolliffe. 

be  provided  according  to  the  method  considered  moat   saitable 
by  the  government   of    the  day,     Haarever,    it  would  be,    I  think, 
advisable  to  develop  the  services   in  the  other  areas  in 
such  a  manner  that  they   could  be  adapted  or   further  im- 
proved in  the  li^t   of  the  results  obtained  in  the  experi- 
mental areas. 

May  I  say  in  leaving  the  matter  that  we  are   ^ust 
as  convinced  as  we  ever  were  that  the  peoples*  health 
could  be  better  served  by  a  system  of  socialized  health 
services  than  by  any  other.     However,  we  believe   in  the 
scientific  method  and,   unlike   some   of  our  critics,   we   are 
^ite  prepared  to  allow  it  to  beput  to  the  test  and  we 
would  welcome  any  fair  test  which  would  provide  results 
lowing  what  act-ually  happened  under  all  three   systems 
or  even  under  a  fourth,   if  the  Minister  desires  to   try 
out  his  municipal  Health  Service  scheme   oJT  last  year, 
and  if  our  proposal  is  not  accepted  by  the  ProvinciaL  or 
Federal  Go'vernments,  we  can  only  conclude  that  they  do  ndt 
believe  in  the   scientific  m.ethod  or  the   scientific  approach 
to  a  great  social  problem  or  they  are  afraid  off  the  results, 

Mx.   Speaker  I  am  happy  to   inform  you  and  the  House 
tljiftt  I  shall  not   be  as  long  on  some  of  the  remainder  of 
thdi  Tw*nty-Tow  Points  as  I  have  been  on  the  first  Eleven, 
I  aa  half  way  through  now.     It  is  not  that  there  is  not  a 
great  d9$.l  I  couH  ss^r    about  the  other  eleven  but  I  have 
in  mind  that  others,   I   trust,  will  have  an  opportunity  to 
speak  in  this  debate. 

Point  No,   12  pledged  the  government   to   prepare 
immediately  province-wide  j^l^s  for  post-war  employment, 
I  suppose  this  brings  me  back  to   the  Minister  fi3r  "Planning 
and  Developmoat,     We  were  told  al-so  by  the  Premier  on  the 
radio  during  the  cairpaigh  that  steps  will  be  taken  immediate- 
ly to  prepare  plans  tot  great  public  undertakings  which 

-  422   "  2-27-45 

Mr.      JollifTe. 

will  create  entployment  in  the  period  of   readjustment  immediate- 
ly after  the  war. 

How,   I  do  not  want  to   be  -unfair  to    the  Minister 
03t  to  the  Government  but  I  think  we  are  entitled  to  ask  the 
CLuestion:     where  are  the  plans?       Unless  we  hear  them   very 
fully  and   convincingly  explained  in  this  debate  at  this 
Session  by  the  Prime  Minister  or  by  the  Minisrter  for  Planning 
and  Development  we  shall  be  forced  to  conclude  that  they  are 
still  nebulae,   that  they  exist  in  the  imagination  <£    the 
Government  rather  than  in  any  concrete  or  definite   fo^m.     Of 
course  a  good  deal  depends  on  the  whole  approach  to  the   matter 
of  planning.      If  it   is  thought  that  planning  consists  in 
making  helpful  suggestions  to    people  who  have   little  money 
to   invest  then  I  think  no  doubt  that  can  be  done   by  any 
fourth-rate  minister,  but  we  believe  that  the   problems  of  the 
day  and  the  problems  of  to-morrow  call  for  much  more  than  a 
few  simple  suggestions  to  people  with  a  little  money  to  invest, 
which  they  perhaps  will     be  too  afraid  to   invest  anyway.      So 
far  all  we  have  from  the  Government  is  the  reaffirmation 
that  they  will  do  everything  they   can  to  encourage  and  assist 
private  enterprise  and  will  spend  some  money  on  public  works. 
Now,  with  regard  to  encouraging  and  assisting  private  enter- 
prise I  would  like  to  know  what  that  amotmt s  to  anymore  than 
a  few  helpful   suggestions  and  holding  a   few  conferences  at 
which  people  can  bandy  back   and  forth  the  kind  of  suggestions 
which  might  be  also  bandied  back  and  forth  in  this  House  if 
we  had  time  but  which  do  not   addup  to  any  real  and  construc- 
tive planning.     As  for  public  woifes ,   as  for  spending  some 
millions  on  new  buildings  required  by  the  Province   itself  amd 
highways  and  o-ftier  worthy  developments  —  well,    what  Govern- 
ment  in   the  world  would  not  spend  some  money  on  public  works 
after  six  years  of  war?     After  six  years  of  allowing  our  pub- 


-  423  -  2-27-45 

Mr,    Jolliffe. 

lie  properties  to  run  doiwi,  which  was  the  only  thing  to  do 
under  the  circumstances.     What  Government  would  not   spend 
millions  on  improvements  after  the  war?     But  allow  me  to   sug- 
gest to   the  Minister  and  the   Government  that  no  anount   of 
Rooseveltian  or  New  Deal  srpending  on  public  works,  and  no 
amoTint  of  prattling  about  free  enterprise  and  private 
initiative  will  break  the  back    of  the  unenployment  pro- 
blem in  this  country. 

It   is  all  very  well  to  spend  millions  upon 
millions  on  useful  presets,  most  of  them  non-productive 
projects,  which  are  a  long-term  asset  but  do  not  result  in 
the  production  of  real  wealth  at  any  foreseeable  future  time. 
That  ia  all  very  well  but  as  Rooseveltians  and  New  Dealers 
found  out,   it   is  not  enough  and  it  will  not    solve  tmem- 
ployment  in  this  country  nor  will  it  do  enough  to  reduce 
^emplQyment  in  Ontario  so  far  as  the  Province  can  do   that 
Job.     Tbsrefore,   if  the  Government  are  pinning  their  faith 
on   some  ambitious  works  proja'Cts  then  I  would  say  there 
is   not  very  much  hope  from  this   Government  for  men  ^o 
hope  to  find  employment  in  us;efal  and  productive    jdbs. 

The  fact  of  the  matter  is,    of  course,  most  em- 
ployment  of  real  importance  and  most  of  the,   employment 
which  will  result   in  the  production  oJT  new  wealth,   which 
along  will     make  possible  a  higher   standard  ct   living  in 
this  country,  most   of   that   employmmt   is  in  productive 
fields  which  are  now  operated  by  private  enterprise  or  by 
monopoly  enterprise,   a  field  into  which   the    Government    i3 
not  prepared  to  enter.      If  the  responsibility  of  employ- 
ment is  to  be  delegated  to    these  people  then  we  shall  ex- 
perience  the   same  difficulty  we   experienced  before  this 
war  when  the  same  thing  was  being  done  for  the   same  reason 

-  424  -  2-27-45 

Mr.    Jolliffe. 

by  previous  administrations. 

I  might  add  in  this    connection  that  many  munici- 
palities and  local  rehabilitation  committees  have  already 
done   all  the  planning  that  th^  reasonably  can  be  expected 
to   do.      Some  of  them  have  been  active  for  years  and  they 
see  now  they  are  at  a  dead-end.     Any  number  of  than  will 
tell  you  they  feel  they   Just  cannot   go  any   further  until 
they  know  more   definitely  what  the   Dominion  Government  is 
going  to  do  and  what  th®  Provincial  Government   ia  going 
to  do,    if  anything.      I  think   they  are  entitled  to  know. 
We  cannot  expect  this  Govemne  nt  to  tell   them  what  the 
Dominion  will  do.      I  do  not  know  what  we  can    expect  the 

Government  of  Ontario   to  tell   the  municipalities  in   this 
Province  anyway  what  they  can  expect   in  the  way   of  planning, 
so    that  they   caa    look  for  financial   or   other  assistance 
from  the  Province   in  the   post-war  year. 

And  Point  number  Thirteen:     the  Government 
pledged  itself  to   free  the  Hydro-Ele;ctric   fiom  political 
control  and  to  give  rural  Ontario  the  benefit  of    lo^ 
power  rates  and  to  remove  the  service  charges  for  farms. 
Well,   I  would  be  the  first  to  admit   -that  in  some  respects 
that  promise  has  been  kept.      I  do  not   expect  to  discuss 
this  point  at  any  great  length  but  I  do  want   tosuggest  to 
the  hon.  Minister  without  portfolio  who    speaks  for  hydro 
in  this  house,   or  did  last  year — I  do  not  think  I  have 
heard  him   this  year — I  want   to    suggest  to  him  that  he 
explain  exactly  what  he  means  by  political  control.      I 
think  he